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Re: [LatinChat-L] Re: LATIN REFLEXIVE AND DEPONENT VERBS

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  • Martin Sauer
    ... looking in OAL (english dictionary), i found the solution, i.e. the problem in english language, not in latin language: awake: - (cause a person or an
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 7, 2007
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      Peter schrieb:
      > John,
      >
      > In my Oxford Latin dictionary, there are two listings for the English
      > word awake. One is the ACTIVE verb expergefacere and the other is the
      > deponent verb expergisci. Since expergefacere is transitive verb, I
      > assume that it can be used reflexively in lieu of the deponent verb.
      >
      > To say "I woke up" I assume it can be said EITHER "Me expergefeci" or
      > "experrectus sum". They BOTH would mean the same thing since this
      > deponent verb is similar to the Greek Middle voice. The way I read
      > the dictonary EITHER form could be used.

      looking in OAL (english dictionary),
      i found the solution, i.e. the problem in english language,
      not in latin language:


      awake:

      - (cause a person or an animal to) stop seleeping; wake:
      [that means: ONE ENGLISH WORD FOR TWO VERY DIFFERRENT ACTIONS,
      latin helps clearing up the mess ;-)]

      a) She awoke when the nurse entered the room.
      => experrecta est / expergiscebatur

      b) He awoke the sleeping child
      => infantem dormientem expergefecit


      exerge-facere = to make ... awake,
      and no human being is able make himself wake up ;-)

      to clarify things use passiv voice:

      me expergefacio --> a me expergefio "i was woken up by myself"

      (sorry if more then twenty years after my first english grammer lessons
      i did not get the english passiv right...)


      but you can find: "se expergefacere"
      Georges: "zur Besinnung kommen, aus dem Taumel erwachen"
      (if Bergolingus-online-dictionary is right:)
      to come to one's senses
      (not using english language in an active way to often,
      if find it difficult to translate old german idioms
      to english - most dictonaries will not help here...)



      > Does "me laetifico" mean the same as "laetor"?

      me laetifico = me laetum facio (= laetor)

      "me laetifico"
      means (could mean!) e.g.
      I tell (myself) a joke and laugh.
      (so that my friends not getting the joke can laugh at me ;-))
      I do something well and therefore i am glad.


      So both actions(laetificare, laetari) give the same result,
      but nevertheless are different actions!
      (at least i think so)

      I hope i did not mess things even more.

      Martin


      PS:

      Nunc autem propono hoc in grege iterum latine scriptum iri,
      nam hac de causa, ut credo, grex conditus est,
      sicut iam ante paucos menses nescioquis scripsit.


      Felix faustumque annum novum!


      PPS:
      Tamen latine scribi potest:
      Hodie me horologio excitatorio expergefeci ;-)
      Tamen melius sonat: Horologium excitatorium me expergefecit.



      --
      "Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine, quam turpe est nescire." (Cicero)
    • Mikael Aldridge
      What about excitare? ... -- Natale hilare et annum faustum.
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 8, 2007
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        What about excitare?


        On 8/1/07 2:03 AM, "Martin Sauer" <martinsauer@...> wrote:

        > Peter schrieb:
        >> John,
        >>
        >> In my Oxford Latin dictionary, there are two listings for the English
        >> word awake. One is the ACTIVE verb expergefacere and the other is the
        >> deponent verb expergisci. Since expergefacere is transitive verb, I
        >> assume that it can be used reflexively in lieu of the deponent verb.
        >>
        >> To say "I woke up" I assume it can be said EITHER "Me expergefeci" or
        >> "experrectus sum". They BOTH would mean the same thing since this
        >> deponent verb is similar to the Greek Middle voice. The way I read
        >> the dictonary EITHER form could be used.
        >
        > looking in OAL (english dictionary),
        > i found the solution, i.e. the problem in english language,
        > not in latin language:
        >
        >
        > awake:
        >
        > - (cause a person or an animal to) stop seleeping; wake:
        > [that means: ONE ENGLISH WORD FOR TWO VERY DIFFERRENT ACTIONS,
        > latin helps clearing up the mess ;-)]
        >
        > a) She awoke when the nurse entered the room.
        > => experrecta est / expergiscebatur
        >
        > b) He awoke the sleeping child
        > => infantem dormientem expergefecit
        >
        >
        > exerge-facere = to make ... awake,
        > and no human being is able make himself wake up ;-)
        >
        > to clarify things use passiv voice:
        >
        > me expergefacio --> a me expergefio "i was woken up by myself"
        >
        > (sorry if more then twenty years after my first english grammer lessons
        > i did not get the english passiv right...)
        >
        >
        > but you can find: "se expergefacere"
        > Georges: "zur Besinnung kommen, aus dem Taumel erwachen"
        > (if Bergolingus-online-dictionary is right:)
        > to come to one's senses
        > (not using english language in an active way to often,
        > if find it difficult to translate old german idioms
        > to english - most dictonaries will not help here...)
        >
        >
        >
        >> Does "me laetifico" mean the same as "laetor"?
        >
        > me laetifico = me laetum facio (= laetor)
        >
        > "me laetifico"
        > means (could mean!) e.g.
        > I tell (myself) a joke and laugh.
        > (so that my friends not getting the joke can laugh at me ;-))
        > I do something well and therefore i am glad.
        >
        >
        > So both actions(laetificare, laetari) give the same result,
        > but nevertheless are different actions!
        > (at least i think so)
        >
        > I hope i did not mess things even more.
        >
        > Martin
        >
        >
        > PS:
        >
        > Nunc autem propono hoc in grege iterum latine scriptum iri,
        > nam hac de causa, ut credo, grex conditus est,
        > sicut iam ante paucos menses nescioquis scripsit.
        >
        >
        > Felix faustumque annum novum!
        >
        >
        > PPS:
        > Tamen latine scribi potest:
        > Hodie me horologio excitatorio expergefeci ;-)
        > Tamen melius sonat: Horologium excitatorium me expergefecit.
        >
        >

        --
        Natale hilare et annum faustum.
      • Peter
        Martin, I read on the Lewis and Short dictionary page that there is an ACTIVE verb laetare which means to gladden almost the same as laetificare. The
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 9, 2007
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          Martin,

          I read on the Lewis and Short dictionary page that there is an ACTIVE
          verb laetare which means "to gladden" almost the same as laetificare.
          The deponent laetari is the passive forms of this active verb and I
          assume could have a PASSIVE meaning ("I was gladdened by the news of
          the birth of your child".

          In Romance languages, to say "I rejoice" uses the reflexive (Je me
          rejouis, Me allegro, Mi rallegro). The deponents uti and frui are
          translated as "to benefit oneself by means of something" and "to
          enjoy oneself by means of something".

          Isn't laetari meaning "to rejoice" a reflexive Middle form? I read
          that when Latin Grammars state that deponents are remnants of the
          Middle voice in Latin. Just as the optative mood merged into the
          subjunctive, the Middle voice merged into the Passive.

          Peter
        • Martin Sauer
          ... could be - same as delectare; delectari (=gaudere =laetari) but in most dictionaries there is no laetare (e.g. Langenscheidt (Menge-Güthling-Pertsch),
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 9, 2007
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            Peter schrieb:

            > Martin,
            >
            > I read on the Lewis and Short dictionary page that there is an ACTIVE
            > verb laetare which means "to gladden" almost the same as laetificare.
            > The deponent laetari is the passive forms of this active verb and I
            > assume could have a PASSIVE meaning ("I was gladdened by the news of
            > the birth of your child".
            could be - same as delectare; delectari (=gaudere =laetari)
            but in most dictionaries there is no "laetare"
            (e.g. Langenscheidt (Menge-Güthling-Pertsch), Stowasser )
            Georges says it is only found in the works of Livius Andronicus and
            Accius(whom you don't know better than laetere i think ;-)) once and
            Apuleius twice, so it was not used very much.

            Accius and Livius Andronicus wrote 2/3 century BC, and in poetry you can
            find many words no Roman would have used in every-day-language,
            Apuleius wrote much later, and his writings are influenced by his
            african origins, so most Romans would have identified you as a foreigner
            if you would have used "laetare" ;-)


            Generally deponent verbs are considered to be "older"!


            On the other side in middle ages there are nearly no deponent verbs,
            or if there are, they are used as normal active ones!

            > In Romance languages, to say "I rejoice" uses the reflexive (Je me
            > rejouis, Me allegro, Mi rallegro).
            Even in German we say "ich freue mich"


            > The deponents uti and frui are
            > translated as "to benefit oneself by means of something" and "to
            > enjoy oneself by means of something".

            > Isn't laetari meaning "to rejoice" a reflexive Middle form? I read
            > that when Latin Grammars state that deponents are remnants of the
            > Middle voice in Latin. Just as the optative mood merged into the
            > subjunctive, the Middle voice merged into the Passive.


            In greek language (i have to confess that i forgot nearly everything i
            learned) are passive and reflexive the same form.
            So they are merged - i really don't know which was earlier :-(

            I don't know anything about the indo-european ancestors
            nor how they used middle voice.


            What you can do with some latin verbs,
            e.g. excitare -> excitari; excitor = i awake (myself)
            or lavare -> lavari; me lavo = lavor
            old greeks could with every verb.



            If you look on a list of latin deponent verbs you can see, that most of
            them show (in some way - look at your translation for uti and frui -
            translating uti as "use" there is nothing reflexive...) reflexive
            meaning (which is also true for greek middle voice.) - but after loosing
            the active voice some verbs did change meaning and got away from
            "reflexivity".

            so you can say:
            * Deponens = (mostly) reflexive meaning, no reflexive pronoun needed
            laetari
            * "normal" verb
            - can have reflexiv meaning without being deponent: gaudet
            - mostly needs reflexive pronouns to show reflexive meaning
            (but not every verb can be reflexive!)
            delectare



            "rejoice" is so to say a "verbum anceps" (like "awake"):
            - sich freuen (=gaudere, laetari)
            - erfreuen (=delectare, [laetare])
            that is: rejoice can be used in the same way as laetare and as laetari!

            I rejoice = laetor (= me laeto...
            but was "laetare" used reflexive? who knows?)
            i rejoice you = te delecto.

            Also nobody would say "I rejoice me" - allthough it is possible!
            (at least i think so, in german nobody would say "ich erfreue mich" -
            but "erfreue" at all is today only used in translations from latin ;-)
            like "non-reflexive rejoice" i think)

            Same is true for latin:
            delector - i rejoice,
            not "me delecto"
            "(a) me delector" gives a different meaning!

            So you see:
            you are right: here middle voice merged into passive!



            But "the last word" was written a few days ago:

            Mc Alpine John schrieb:
            > I think that the items we are discussing are largely arbitrary
            > and hence not capable of being rationalized.

            > Regards.
            > Joannes.

            For some things there are no rules, "only" feelings!
            (that is: you have to look up a really big dictionay - the ThLL will be
            enough, if it will be finished one day - to know which word was used in
            which way)

            Martin






            --
            Das Studium der exakten Wissenschaften gewährt
            Vorteile, geistige Schulung und ein wenig Kultur,
            die klassischen Sprachen geben
            Kultur, geistige Schulung und einige Vorteile.
            Francis W. Kelsey, Latin and Greek in American education, NY 1911
          • Martin Sauer
            ... excitare=expergefacere excitari=expergisci = expergefieri With some verbs you can do it like this, but not with all, e.g. verbero - verberor (i beat
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 9, 2007
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              Mikael Aldridge schrieb:

              > What about excitare?
              excitare=expergefacere
              excitari=expergisci = expergefieri

              With some verbs you can do it like this,
              but not with all,
              e.g.
              verbero -> verberor
              (i beat myself - no!)


              Perhaps i did not unterstand your question?


              --
              Das Studium der exakten Wissenschaften gewährt
              Vorteile, geistige Schulung und ein wenig Kultur,
              die klassischen Sprachen geben
              Kultur, geistige Schulung und einige Vorteile.
              Francis W. Kelsey, Latin and Greek in American education, NY 1911
            • Christian Knudsen
              Salue Martin, Aliquid quod mihi uidetur tuo nuntio superiori addendum est - Quamvis deponenta verba maiora sit, reuera in medio aeuo scriptores eadem continue
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 9, 2007
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                Salue Martin,

                Aliquid quod mihi uidetur tuo nuntio superiori addendum est - Quamvis deponenta verba maiora sit, reuera in medio aeuo scriptores eadem continue usi sunt. Multi eorum sunt quos in meis studiis inuenio.

                Uale,
                Christianus
                Discipulus Doctoralis
                Centrum Studiorum Medii Aevi
                Uniuersitas Torontonensis


                et in lingua Anglica:

                Hi Martin,

                Just a small addendum to your previous posting. Deponent verbs may be older, but they most certainly did continue to be used in the Middle Ages. There are a number of ones used quite frequently which I see all the time in my research.

                Cheers,
                Christian
                To: LatinChat-L@yahoogroups.comFrom: martinsauer@...: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:01:46 +0100Subject: Re: [LatinChat-L] Re: LATIN REFLEXIVE AND DEPONENT VERBS




                Peter schrieb:> Martin, > > I read on the Lewis and Short dictionary page that there is an ACTIVE > verb laetare which means "to gladden" almost the same as laetificare. > The deponent laetari is the passive forms of this active verb and I > assume could have a PASSIVE meaning ("I was gladdened by the news of > the birth of your child". could be - same as delectare; delectari (=gaudere =laetari)but in most dictionaries there is no "laetare"(e.g. Langenscheidt (Menge-Güthling-Pertsch), Stowasser )Georges says it is only found in the works of Livius Andronicus and Accius(whom you don't know better than laetere i think ;-)) once and Apuleius twice, so it was not used very much.Accius and Livius Andronicus wrote 2/3 century BC, and in poetry you can find many words no Roman would have used in every-day-language,Apuleius wrote much later, and his writings are influenced by his african origins, so most Romans would have identified you as a foreigner if you would have used "laetare" ;-)Generally deponent verbs are considered to be "older"!On the other side in middle ages there are nearly no deponent verbs,or if there are, they are used as normal active ones!> In Romance languages, to say "I rejoice" uses the reflexive (Je me > rejouis, Me allegro, Mi rallegro). Even in German we say "ich freue mich"> The deponents uti and frui are > translated as "to benefit oneself by means of something" and "to > enjoy oneself by means of something". > Isn't laetari meaning "to rejoice" a reflexive Middle form? I read > that when Latin Grammars state that deponents are remnants of the > Middle voice in Latin. Just as the optative mood merged into the > subjunctive, the Middle voice merged into the Passive.In greek language (i have to confess that i forgot nearly everything i learned) are passive and reflexive the same form.So they are merged - i really don't know which was earlier :-(I don't know anything about the indo-european ancestorsnor how they used middle voice.What you can do with some latin verbs,e.g. excitare -> excitari; excitor = i awake (myself)or lavare -> lavari; me lavo = lavorold greeks could with every verb.If you look on a list of latin deponent verbs you can see, that most of them show (in some way - look at your translation for uti and frui - translating uti as "use" there is nothing reflexive...) reflexive meaning (which is also true for greek middle voice.) - but after loosing the active voice some verbs did change meaning and got away from "reflexivity".so you can say:* Deponens = (mostly) reflexive meaning, no reflexive pronoun neededlaetari* "normal" verb- can have reflexiv meaning without being deponent: gaudet- mostly needs reflexive pronouns to show reflexive meaning(but not every verb can be reflexive!)delectare"rejoice" is so to say a "verbum anceps" (like "awake"):- sich freuen (=gaudere, laetari)- erfreuen (=delectare, [laetare])that is: rejoice can be used in the same way as laetare and as laetari!I rejoice = laetor (= me laeto...but was "laetare" used reflexive? who knows?)i rejoice you = te delecto.Also nobody would say "I rejoice me" - allthough it is possible!(at least i think so, in german nobody would say "ich erfreue mich" - but "erfreue" at all is today only used in translations from latin ;-)like "non-reflexive rejoice" i think)Same is true for latin:delector - i rejoice,not "me delecto""(a) me delector" gives a different meaning!So you see:you are right: here middle voice merged into passive!But "the last word" was written a few days ago:Mc Alpine John schrieb:> I think that the items we are discussing are largely arbitrary> and hence not capable of being rationalized.> Regards.> Joannes.For some things there are no rules, "only" feelings!(that is: you have to look up a really big dictionay - the ThLL will be enough, if it will be finished one day - to know which word was used in which way)Martin-- Das Studium der exakten Wissenschaften gewährtVorteile, geistige Schulung und ein wenig Kultur,die klassischen Sprachen gebenKultur, geistige Schulung und einige Vorteile.Francis W. Kelsey, Latin and Greek in American education, NY 1911


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              • Mikael Aldridge
                It just seems a simpler word to wake onesself up with. ... -- Natale hilare et annum faustum.
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 9, 2007
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                  It just seems a simpler word to wake onesself up with.


                  On 10/1/07 3:04 AM, "Martin Sauer" <martinsauer@...> wrote:

                  > Mikael Aldridge schrieb:
                  >
                  >> What about excitare?
                  > excitare=expergefacere
                  > excitari=expergisci = expergefieri
                  >
                  > With some verbs you can do it like this,
                  > but not with all,
                  > e.g.
                  > verbero -> verberor
                  > (i beat myself - no!)
                  >
                  >
                  > Perhaps i did not unterstand your question?
                  >

                  --
                  Natale hilare et annum faustum.
                • Peter
                  Martin, Thanks for your informative reply. I now have a question about paticular deponent verbs. Do you know anything about the deponent verbs nasci (to be
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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                    Martin,

                    Thanks for your informative reply. I now have a question about
                    paticular deponent verbs.

                    Do you know anything about the deponent verbs nasci (to be born) and
                    mori (to die) ? In the New Latin Grammar it states that in addition
                    to a "Reflexive Middle" there is an "Indirect Middle" where the
                    subject is "acting in its own interest". Does that explain why these
                    two verbs are deponent verbs? I know that nasci also has the meaning
                    "to spring forth" which is very active.

                    You stated that in Later Colloquial Latin (NOT the Vulgate) deponent
                    verbs are disappearing from the common speach. Can you explain the
                    the reason for the Italian Past Definite ending of nascere:

                    nacqui, nascesti, nacque, nascemmo, nasceste, nascero

                    which would be in Latin nasci, nascisti, nascit, nascimus, nascistis,
                    nascerunt

                    It is intersting that this verb comes from a Latin deponent yet they
                    are using the ACTIVE perfect endings which would never be used in
                    Classical Latin. Do you know if Late Latin ever went back to the
                    Active forms for this verb? It is interesting that the compund
                    Perfect form "è nato(a)" is more closer to Classical Latin for this
                    verb since the Latin verb was a deponent.

                    As for other deponents verbs, sequi, consequi, persequi, and largiri
                    find there way into the Romance languages. Do you know if these verbs
                    had active forms in Colloquial Latin first?

                    Peter
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