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Fwd: [FLOWidealism] Re: Greenspan and bubbles, from the Bayesian investor

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  • Jeffery J. Smith
    Libs are way ahead of some Georgists -- never too late to join the 20th century! ... SMITH, Jeffery J. President, Forum on Geonomics jjs@geonomics.org;
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 28, 2010
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      Libs are way ahead of some Georgists -- never too late to join the 20th century!


      Begin forwarded message:
      From: Robert Capozzi <rccapozzi@...>
      Date: January 28, 2010 4:34:41 AM PST
      Subject: Re: [FLOWidealism] Re: Greenspan and bubbles, from the Bayesian investor

       

      Carl, help us understand why we'd want to encourage homeownership.  In my heart of hearts, I seek government-policy neutrality on all outcomes.  At root politicizing outcomes is to invite corruption.
       
      If the result of the outcome was significant poverty and material want, I'm open to tweaking policy.  It's one of the many attractive aspects of a citizen's dividend...it' s a very neutral safety net, arguably one that's consistent with property rights.
       
      In the meantime, when the vast majority remain addicted to non-neutral outcomes, I'm a-OK with making adjustments to policies that lead to a less intrusive State, including what you suggest.
       
      -Bob


      SMITH, Jeffery J.
      President, Forum on Geonomics
      Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
      Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

    • walto
      ... But way behind most others. W
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 28, 2010
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        --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery J. Smith" <jjs@...> wrote:
        >
        > Libs are way ahead of some Georgists


        But way behind most others.

        W
      • Jeffery J. Smith
        ... Sure, to the extent that society in general is, but what you have to admire is their willingness to adopt the citizens dividend and thru that various means
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 28, 2010
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          On Jan 28, 2010, at 2:07 PM, walto wrote:

          --- In LandCafe@yahoogroup s.com, "Jeffery J. Smith" <jjs@...> wrote:

          >
          > Libs are way ahead of some Georgists

          But way behind most others.

          Sure, to the extent that society in general is, but what you have to admire is their willingness to adopt the citizens dividend and thru that various means of public rent recovery, showing more open-mindedness than just about all true believers.

          Show of hands: who on this list has ever got out of the tax box? Ever used "citizens dividend"? Used "land dues"? Argued for socializing (not using that word) spectrum rent? Against corporate welfare? For charging polluters? Used "commons" or "externality" or "surplus" or "commonwealth"? Etc?

          SMITH, Jeffery J.
          President, Forum on Geonomics
          Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
          Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

        • roy_langston1
          ... A willingness that IME is rare, tenuous and grudging. By far the most common libertarian responses to mentions of a CD are denunciations of it as a
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 28, 2010
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            --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery J. Smith"
            <jjs@...> wrote:

            > On Jan 28, 2010, at 2:07 PM, walto wrote:
            > > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery J. Smith"
            > > <jjs@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Libs are way ahead of some Georgists
            > >
            > > But way behind most others.
            >
            > Sure, to the extent that society in general is, but
            > what you have to admire is their willingness to adopt
            > the citizens dividend

            A willingness that IME is rare, tenuous and grudging.
            By far the most common libertarian responses to mentions
            of a CD are denunciations of it as a euphemism for
            welfare, collectivism, socialism, statism, or communism.

            I would more willingly admire their willingness to adopt
            the universal individual land tax exemption.

            > and thru that various means of
            > public rent recovery,

            Feudal libertarians almost without exception denounce
            recovery of publicly created rents for public purposes
            as a violation of property rights.

            > showing more open-
            > mindedness than just about all true believers.

            You mean true believers like the CD advocates who
            refuse to countenance a universal individual land tax
            exemption as an alternative to a CD?

            > Show of hands: who on this list has ever got out of
            > the tax box? Ever used "citizens dividend"?

            I have often mentioned a citizens dividend as a
            second-best alternative to a universal individual
            land tax exemption. How often have you mentioned a
            universal individual land tax exemption as an
            alternative to a CD at all, whether as second-best or
            in any way whatever (other than just to denounce it)?

            > Used "land dues"?

            Have you used the more accurate "land rent recovery"?

            > Argued for socializing (not using that word)
            > spectrum rent?

            Yep. In fact, I got it onto the platform of a
            national political party.

            > Against corporate welfare?

            Often.

            > For charging polluters?

            Yep.

            > Used "commons" or "externality" or "surplus" or
            > "commonwealth"?

            All of the above, though "commonwealth" only rarely.

            -- Roy Langston
          • Jeffery J. Smith
            ... How often have you advocated exempting people from any other moral obligation? Why would land dues be any different? ... You re on the cutting-edge! SMITH,
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 28, 2010
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              On Jan 28, 2010, at 3:22 PM, roy_langston1 wrote:


              I have often mentioned a citizens dividend as a
              second-best alternative to a universal individual
              land tax exemption. How often have you mentioned a
              universal individual land tax exemption as an
              alternative to a CD at all, whether as second-best or
              in any way whatever (other than just to denounce it)?

              How often have you advocated exempting people from any other moral obligation? Why would land dues be any different?

              > Argued for socializing (not using that word)
              > spectrum rent?
               Yep. In fact, I got it onto the platform of a
              national political party.
               > Against corporate welfare?
               Often.
               > For charging polluters?
               Yep.
               > Used "commons" or "externality" or "surplus" or
              > "commonwealth" ?
               All of the above, though "commonwealth" only rarely.

              You're on the cutting-edge!

              SMITH, Jeffery J.
              President, Forum on Geonomics
              Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
              Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

            • walto
              ... Yeah. (Nobody fainted dead away or anything.) ... No. ... Yeah (and I don t mind using that word ) ... Sure. ... Who hasn t? ... I published a paper on
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 28, 2010
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                --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery J. Smith" <jjs@...> wrote:
                >

                > Show of hands: who on this list has ever got out of the tax box? Ever
                > used "citizens dividend"?

                Yeah. (Nobody fainted dead away or anything.)


                > Used "land dues"?

                No.


                > Argued for socializing
                > (not using that word) spectrum rent?


                Yeah (and I don't mind using "that word")


                > Against corporate welfare?


                Sure.


                > For charging polluters?


                Who hasn't?


                > Used "commons" or "externality"


                I published a paper on Coase in "Land Economics" once upon a time.


                > or "surplus"

                Not in this connection.



                > or "commonwealth"


                I live in Massachusetts. It's fairly common parlance here.

                W
              • Edward Dodson
                Jeff Smith wrote: Sure, to the extent that society in general is, but what you have to admire is their willingness to adopt the citizens dividend and thru that
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 28, 2010
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                  Jeff Smith wrote:

                  Sure, to the extent that society in general is, but what you have to admire
                  is their willingness to adopt the citizens dividend and thru that various
                  means of public rent recovery, showing more open-mindedness than just about
                  all true believers.

                  Show of hands: who on this list has ever got out of the tax box? Ever used
                  "citizens dividend"? Used "land dues"? Argued for socializing (not using
                  that word) spectrum rent? Against corporate welfare? For charging polluters?
                  Used "commons" or "externality" or "surplus" or "commonwealth"? Etc?

                  Ed Dodson here:
                  To call others a "true believer" is to suggests (as Eric Hoffer used the
                  term) that those who hold to certain beliefs do so without thought, as
                  followers of some charismatic leader. I find very few individuals who
                  embrace the principles contained in Henry George's writings to fit this
                  definition. Argument abounds over whether the most accurate -- and/or most
                  effective language for use in public discourse -- is that found in George's
                  writings or some modification is needed.

                  Jeff, you are one of the leading proponents of awarding all a citizens
                  dividend. This policy is the one you embrace as both just and practical. It
                  is consistent with a libertarian perspective that governments ought to have
                  access to the least amount of revenue required to fulfill minimum
                  obligations to protect the person and property of citizens. Others argue
                  that the citizens dividend ought to be viewed as a residual available for
                  distribution after the rent fund is fully collected and applied to the
                  public goods and services citizens decide are necessary and desired.

                  The diversity of approaches that continue to compete for advocacy indicates
                  one thing only (to me at least); namely, that there is no broad consensus
                  among us (and we are a relatively small group) over the best way to promote
                  the principles we are committed to.
                • DavidH
                  ... Self-financing transit? Self-financing city? (Or case where tax might actually be advantageous) Vacant Lot Tax david harrell.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                    > Show of hands: who on this list has ever got out of the tax box? Ever
                    > used "citizens dividend"? Used "land dues"? Argued for socializing
                    > (not using that word) spectrum rent? Against corporate welfare? For
                    > charging polluters? Used "commons" or "externality" or "surplus" or
                    > "commonwealth"? Etc?



                    Self-financing transit?
                    Self-financing city?

                    (Or case where "tax" might actually be advantageous)
                    Vacant Lot Tax


                    david harrell.
                  • roy_langston1
                    ... There is no moral obligation to pay for the liberty to exercise one s rights. There is only a moral obligation to compensate others for depriving them of
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery J. Smith"
                      <jjs@...> wrote:

                      > On Jan 28, 2010, at 3:22 PM, roy_langston1 wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have often mentioned a citizens dividend as a
                      > > second-best alternative to a universal individual
                      > > land tax exemption. How often have you mentioned a
                      > > universal individual land tax exemption as an
                      > > alternative to a CD at all, whether as second-best or
                      > > in any way whatever (other than just to denounce it)?
                      > >
                      > How often have you advocated exempting people from any
                      > other moral obligation?

                      There is no moral obligation to pay for the liberty to
                      exercise one's rights. There is only a moral obligation
                      to compensate others for depriving them of the liberty
                      to exercise THEIR rights.

                      > Why would land dues be any different?

                      Because there is no moral obligation to pay for the
                      liberty to exercise one's rights.

                      -- Roy Langston
                    • Jeffery J. Smith
                      ... Good ones. We used to have a Displaced Development Fee. SMITH, Jeffery J. President, Forum on Geonomics jjs@geonomics.org; www.progress.org Land Rights
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                        On Jan 29, 2010, at 12:38 AM, DavidH wrote:
                         


                        > Show of hands: who on this list has ever got out of the tax box? Ever
                        > used "citizens dividend"? Used "land dues"? Argued for socializing
                        > (not using that word) spectrum rent? Against corporate welfare? For
                        > charging polluters? Used "commons" or "externality" or "surplus" or
                        > "commonwealth" ? Etc?

                        Self-financing transit?
                        Self-financing city?

                        (Or case where "tax" might actually be advantageous)
                        Vacant Lot Tax

                        Good ones. We used to have a Displaced Development Fee.
                        SMITH, Jeffery J.
                        President, Forum on Geonomics
                        Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
                        Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

                      • Jeffery J. Smith
                        ... That s it. Mutual compensation. Each displacer compensates all others, other neighbors, other members of society, not to politicians and bureaucrats. Land
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                          On Jan 29, 2010, at 1:56 AM, roy_langston1 wrote:


                          There is only a moral obligation to compensate others for depriving them of the liberty to exercise THEIR rights.

                          That's it. Mutual compensation. Each displacer compensates all others, other neighbors, other members of society, not to politicians and bureaucrats. Land Dues into the public treasury, Rent Shares back to the citizenry.

                          SMITH, Jeffery J.
                          President, Forum on Geonomics
                          Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
                          Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

                        • Jeffery J. Smith
                          ... While it does take some thought to arrive at the share-rent solution, it also takes some thought to arrive at a feasible strategy for popularizing it and
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                            On Jan 28, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Edward Dodson wrote:


                            To call others a "true believer" is to suggests (as Eric Hoffer used the term) that those who hold to certain beliefs do so without thought,

                            While it does take some thought to arrive at the share-rent solution, it also takes some thought to arrive at a feasible strategy for popularizing it and eventually winning it. Here's where the true belief comes in. Some people who have figured out other solutions in other arenas of life, also read up on actual social change, study theories of social change, conduct focus groups, do polling, etc.  It'd be worth a try, I say.

                            SMITH, Jeffery J.
                            President, Forum on Geonomics
                            Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
                            Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

                          • bruno moser
                            that is why I run as Governor, again. Current profession: r3volutionary LVT when the right thought is in place... Wish me luck, b. -- International Land
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                              that is why I run as Governor, again.   Current profession: r3volutionary LVT

                              "when the right thought is in place..."

                              Wish me luck,

                              b.


                              --
                              International Land Economics
                              Philadelphia, Hanoi, Les Prés-d'Orvin

                              TWO THOUGHTS FOR TODAY:
                              A man can't ride on your back unless it's bent. -Martin Luther King, Jr., civil-rights leader (1929-1968)

                              Wer die Wahrheit nicht kennt, ist nur ein Dummkopf. Wer sie aber kennt, und sie eine Lüge nennt, ist ein Verbrecher.
                              -Galileo Galilei, Italienischer Physiker und Astronom,(1564 - 1642)



                              On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Jeffery J. Smith <jjs@...> wrote:
                               

                              On Jan 28, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Edward Dodson wrote:


                              To call others a "true believer" is to suggests (as Eric Hoffer used the term) that those who hold to certain beliefs do so without thought,

                              While it does take some thought to arrive at the share-rent solution, it also takes some thought to arrive at a feasible strategy for popularizing it and eventually winning it. Here's where the true belief comes in. Some people who have figured out other solutions in other arenas of life, also read up on actual social change, study theories of social change, conduct focus groups, do polling, etc.  It'd be worth a try, I say.

                              SMITH, Jeffery J.
                              President, Forum on Geonomics
                              Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
                              Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.






                            • Edward Dodson
                              I wrote: To call others a true believer is to suggests (as Eric Hoffer used the term) that those who hold to certain beliefs do so without thought, Jeff
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                                I wrote:
                                To call others a "true believer" is to suggests (as Eric Hoffer used the
                                term) that those who hold to certain beliefs do so without thought,

                                Jeff responded:
                                While it does take some thought to arrive at the share-rent solution, it
                                also takes some thought to arrive at a feasible strategy for popularizing it
                                and eventually winning it. Here's where the true belief comes in. Some
                                people who have figured out other solutions in other arenas of life, also
                                read up on actual social change, study theories of social change, conduct
                                focus groups, do polling, etc. It'd be worth a try, I say.

                                Ed again:
                                When we are unsuccessful bringing others to our way of thinking, is it
                                because our message is not sufficiently persuasive? Or because these others
                                are true believers?

                                Of course, there are many true believers in this world. Others are simply
                                close-minded or not interested or resistant to almost any new ideas.

                                Meet with a group of 100 people who are actively working to end poverty in
                                the world. How many meetings would it take to enlist more than a few who
                                would, first, understand, then embrace the concept of a citizens dividend?
                              • Jeffery J. Smith
                                ... Seems so. Responding to people s objections is how I came up with geonomics , citizens dividend , and all the rest. But, rather than we all give our
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 29, 2010
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                                  On Jan 29, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Edward Dodson wrote:


                                  When we are unsuccessful bringing others to our way of thinking, is it because our message is not sufficiently persuasive?

                                  Seems so. Responding to people's objections is how I came up with "geonomics", "citizens dividend", and all the rest.

                                  But, rather than we all give our opinions, why don't we listen to what people say? Conduct focus groups, do polling, etc.

                                  Meet with a group of 100 people who are actively working to end poverty in the world. How many meetings would it take to enlist more than a few who would, first, understand, then embrace the concept of a citizens dividend?

                                  100 is out of my league, usually, but I'm always meeting with smaller groups and I'd say you got the order backwards; most people embrace the CitDiv before they understand it -- which is OK. Judging by how fast the BI movement has grown, by how readily legislatures accept dividends attached to the carbon tax (BC) and to the oil tax (Alaska) and to a real estate tax (Aspend CO), I'm encouraged and urge you to try it, too.

                                  No matter how easy or difficult, it sure is a lot easier than a land tax. After the showing of the Poverty? film here, when he had the stage to himself here, Cliff didn't even try to utter the word tax, and I don't blame him, but that left-leaning audience would certainly have warmed to a call for a CD. Couch it like, "we're bailing out billionaires -- why don't we fund ourselves?" Proceed from there.

                                  Warmly yours,

                                  SMITH, Jeffery J.
                                  President, Forum on Geonomics
                                  Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
                                  Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

                                • Scott Bergeson
                                  Quoting Roy Langston on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:22:03 -0000: ___Roy___ Feudal libertarians almost without exception denounce recovery of publicly created rents for
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 1, 2010
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                                    Quoting Roy Langston on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:22:03 -0000:

                                    ___Roy___
                                    Feudal libertarians almost without exception
                                    denounce recovery of publicly created rents for
                                    public purposes as a violation of property rights.
                                    -----

                                    Misesianism, Rothbardism, and the libertarian
                                    right version of "anarcho-capitalism" are feudal.

                                    Scott
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