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Re: [LandCafe] Re: privilege or right?

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  • Jeffery J. Smith
    ... we re saying the same thing. ... You have a right to take your turn there. ... When we use sites short-term, we just take turns -- on beaches, roads, etc.
    Message 1 of 45 , Apr 7, 2009
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      On Apr 7, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Matt Bieker wrote:

      each person's right to use of the earth is limited by the equal right of everyone else.





      we're saying the same thing.

      I have a right to use the land where that towel is, but so does the person who put the towel there.






      You have a right to take your turn there.

      But let me turn this around: if I don't want to go to the beach at 
      all, does the person who has put a towel down permanently owe me 
      compensation? Or does he only owe compensation to people who would 
      like to use that area of the beach?








      When we use sites short-term, we just take turns -- on beaches, roads, etc. Until it gets crowded. Then you might have to charge admittance, e.g. congestion charges.

      When we use sites long-term, then we owe each other compensation for exclusion -- if we choose a site others have need of /demand for. How can you tell? That's what it's market value is, a way to tell.

      A carbon tax bears mainly on a tiny minority that is generally unpopular.





      Taxes are generally unpopular but almost everybody emits carbon.

      But labor DID make the value (as George pointed out, labor ultimately
      creates all value).






      It made the increase in value. But even pre-tech humanoids valued some spots more than others.

      It's a value that represents the synergistic efforts of society as a whole.





      That's key. Hence society can recover it fairly.

      But not everyone contributes to these efforts;





      Not equally. And not equally all the time. But one rule of ethics is that a moral act must be possible. If you rescue somebody dying in the road, you did good. If you don't rescue somebody dying on the moon while you're here, you did not do bad. You can't measure each individual's contribution to rent. So you don't have to. The market doesn't. It pretty much reflects population density. No individual can claim responsibility for that.

      in fact, some work to decrease the level of synergy.





      And some go back and forth, decreasing for a while, increasing for a while.

      Though these individuals have no claim whatever to the value produced by
      others who do contribute to synergistic efforts, they still have an equal right to use the earth.







      And to compensation for keeping off others' claims. How much? Whatever the market says. If the market reads labor or density or whatever, so? Land owners/owers are getting off easy.

      If you want to live as a hunter/gatherer where downtown London now is, how much compensation are you owed for the losses of both your lifestyle and your habitat? Aboriginals could paraphrase you and say tho' you have no right alter Earth irremediably, you still have exclusive right to any value you individually produce.

      SMITH, Jeffery J.
      President, Forum on Geonomics
      Land Rights course: www.course.earthrights.net
      Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

    • Harry Pollard
      People buy a gold mine for the ore? ****************************** Henry George School of Los Angeles Box 655 Tujunga CA 91043 Tel: 818 352-4141
      Message 45 of 45 , May 14, 2009
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        People buy a gold mine for the ore?

         

        ******************************

        Henry George School of Los Angeles

        Box 655  Tujunga  CA  91043

        Tel: 818 352-4141

        ******************************

         

        From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roy Langston
        Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:06 PM
        To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [LandCafe] Re:Overpopulation and Wages Fund

         





        Harry Pollard wrote:

        >So, now you agree that someone using “intrinsic”
        >may not be an ignoramus as these distinguished
        >economists both used it.

        Uh, they used it in an entirely different
        context. It's using a word in an inappropriate
        context that makes one seem an ignoramus. For
        example, if someone said, "This pond has an
        intrinsic frog population of 36," that would make
        them seem a biological ignoramus.

        >The writers used it to describe the actual value
        >of the "bullion" within the coin, I used it to
        >describe the actual value of the bullion within
        >the mine.

        You reversed the quotation marks inappropriately,
        because there actually is bullion in a gold coin,
        but not in a gold mine. There is only ore in the
        mine, not bullion. So your sentence should have read,
        "The writers used it to describe the actual value
        of the bullion within the coin, I used it to
        describe the actual value of the 'bullion' within
        the mine," thus making it clear that you were
        not using the word the way they were using it.

        >Fewer ad hominems and more attention to
        >discovery would be appreciated.

        Cast out first the beam that is in thine own
        eye, Harry.

        Harry also wrote:

        [I wrote]

        >“There is a lot of confused nonsense about jobs
        >and job creation. While it is true that poverty
        >and destitution are rarely the result of
        >overpopulation and usually the result of unjust
        >land tenure arrangements, claiming miracles for
        >rent recovery will not increase our credibility.
        >
        >So you agree? Didn’t claim any miracles.

        George claimed rent recovery was "the solution"
        to poverty. But it can't solve poverty caused by
        the other factors I identified: Easter Island-style
        overshoot; adherence to traditional ways that can
        no longer support the population; endemic disease
        or animal pests; climate change; depredations by
        thieves or corrupt governments; etc.

        >You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.

        In logic, it is important to ensure that every
        premise is true, as any false premise, no matter
        how minor or how very slightly false it may seem,
        can lead to radically false conclusions.

        >What did Henry George get wrong?

        The nature of money and interest; the moral basis
        and economic effects of patents and copyrights;
        the appropriate remedy for poverty caused by
        systematic uncompensated violation of people's
        land-use rights; etc.

        Harry also wrote:

        >I suppose being a gold-bug is rather better
        >than being a fiat-fanatic.
        >
        >I think a money backed by a commodity is
        >infinitely better than a money backed by (as Ed
        >Dodson put it) 'nothing is particular'.

        Fiat money is not backed by nothing in particular.
        It is backed by government's power to tax and to
        order money payments in settlement of debts.

        >The present fiat-fraud is a permanent invisible
        >tax on our production.

        The current system is debt money, not fiat money,
        and the permanent invisible "tax" goes to private
        banks, their officers and owners, not to
        government, and thus is not a tax at all but a
        rent -- i.e., a return to privilege.

        -- Roy Langston

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