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RE: [LandCafe] Re: LT: RE: Get thru?

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  • Harry Pollard
    David, What are you doing between Bahrain and Ghent? Just lazing around? I want to see a little more action out of you, young man. I want to see those
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 16 10:30 AM
    • 0 Attachment

      David,

       

      What are you doing between Bahrain and Ghent?

       

      Just lazing around?

       

      I want to see a little more action out of you, young man. I want to see those inactive, wasted, periods filled in,

       

      Don’t worry about David Brooks, who is a good guy.

       

      I happen to think that socialism is completely unnecessary when we have “liberty and justice for all”.

       

      For some strange reason you think I am wrong and that “liberty and justice for all” requires socialism. Can’t understand how you could think this.

       

      However, Henry George spoke favorably of the ideals of socialism – as he should, for they are Georgist ideals too.

       

      These ‘tempests in a teapot’ remind me of the more serious tempests in Spain when the opposition to Franco seemed to spend as much time fighting each other as they spent fighting Franco and his Nazi support.

       

      I wonder why Franco won?

       

      Harry

       

      ******************************

      Harry Pollard

      Henry George School of Los Angeles

      Box 655

      Tujunga  CA  91042

      (818) 352-4141

      ******************************

       

      From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wetzel Dave
      Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:28 PM
      To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com; landtax@...
      Subject: [LandCafe] Re: LT: RE: Get thru?

       

      David Brooks wrote:
      [There are] "those who only see economic [LVT] reform. The latter are mainly socialist & regard socialism as the main event. You can see this in their writing and utterings. These are those who want "congestion" charges and "resource" charges, and "pollution" taxes, wish to charge for the casual use of common land & proclaim loudly that these are "Georgist."
      And he added:
      "Those who wish to advocate "modern" Geoism should go & join the Labor (or whatever that is in the US) party and stop cluttering up the efforts of those who are actually Georgists."
      David Brooks.
      --------------------------
      From Dave Wetzel :
      It is an interesting position that you expound David Brooks.

      It implies that Georgist's like you want me and many others to shut up about LVT.

      On Monday of last week I met a delegation of South African MPs who were visiting London, UK to find out more about our congestion charge scheme and successful transport policies (road casualties down, bus patronage up 53% and cycling up 84% for example). Of course I also used half of our two hours to discuss LVT and have correspondd by e-mail since with the ANC MP who led the delegation.

      Wednesday and Thursday last week I was in Dublin as the guest of Feasta, a green  environmental lobby group full of young people who are serious about climate change and LVT. They arranged my trip where I did a Radio interview on congestion charging and LVT and spoke about Annual Land Value Tax at the Dublin Institute of Technology for 45 minutes - a decent time to develop an argument.

      I am now in Bahrain as the guest in a 5 star hotel of their Ministry of Transport, where on Monday morning I was the keynote speaker together with the Deputy Transport Minister of Bahrain at the opening ceremony of the "ARAB ITS" (Intellegent Transport Systems) annual  conference with about 400 delegates from around the globe but mainly from the Gulf and the Middle East. I spoke on congestion charging and Annual Land Value Tax. I later gave a small seminar on LVT in the hotel's business centre for a few delegates who showed a special interest and many delegates took copies of my presentation on their memory sticks and laptops.

      Next week I go to Ghent in Belgium where I have been especially invited to discuss LVT with the Economics Working Group of the UITP, an international public transport body.
        
      I know that I am only one of several socialists who advocate LVT.

      What does David Brooks want? - Socialists like me to cease advocating LVT to all and sundry? - because we also advocate socialism in preference to laisey-faire global capitalism?


      Best Wishes,
      Dave

      Dave Wetzel
      Vice-Chair TfL
      Tel: 020 7126 4200
      --------------------------

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
      To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue Apr 15 01:49:45 2008
      Subject: Re: LT:  RE: Get thru?

      Yes David Chester,
                              George also said that "there are those among us, who, seeing the fiscal beauty....."
      So we have three clear types of Georgist.
      Those who see his philosophy - Freedom.
      Those who only see economic reform. The latter are mainly socialist & regard socialism as the main event. You can see this in their writing and utterings. These are those who want "congestion" charges and "resource" charges, and "pollution" taxes, wish to charge for the casual use of common land & proclaim loudly that these are "Georgist."
      Those who don't quite know why they believe.
      But the discussion on this list goes on forever without doing much to define or reach a conclusion or promote the scientific approach. There is as much (maybe more) discussion of money as there is of LVT (or whatever they wish to call it this week). The beauty of discussing money is the lack of definition of terms.

      The school system was set up for what schools do. Teach. Only one school in Australia actually teaches(the NSW AGG).
      Schooling is the only way I know of teaching science. Yes there are exceptions - but few. People who pass through our schools generally understand the philosophy and follow it. They understand the terminology and do not, like the second group, repeatedly use obtuse terms which diminish the philosophy. (This, I believe, is deliberate.)
      The third group will always be there.
      So this very loosely knit organisation is split by dissent about the philosophy we advocate. There is no clear path! While this remains the way the influence and membership will continue to decline. Those who wish to advocate "modern" Geoism should go & join the Labor (or whatever that is in the US) party and stop cluttering up the efforts of those who are actually Georgists.

      David Brooks
      Freedom is the only end
      http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical <http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical>

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: David Chester <mailto:chesterdh@...
              To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 8:06 PM
              Subject: Re: LT: RE: Get thru?


              --- In landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com> , "Jeffery J. Smith" <jjs@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Apr 12, 2008, at 8:22 AM, Edward Dodson wrote:
              > >
              > > What works best?
             
              There is no doubt in my mind as to what works best. The only way that
              our ideas can be made to stick is by the spreading of scientific
              knowledge about macroeconomics. We ourselves are weak in this subject
              because what we think is important is only a small part of the "big
              picture" of the national system of our socierty (which because it is
              big is not necessarily complicated). Henry George has certainly
              pointed us in the right direction but where are our developments of
              his wordy theory? Where is our detailed knowledge of the way we are
              going when LVT is not employed?
             
              Therefore we should first get our facts about the whole system solid
              by building a science that actually explains how it functions and
              then to demonstrate and prove the beneficial effect of introducing
              LVT, to work by simulation methods using models of our system. The
              non-mathematical ones amongst us may shy from this, but in fact it is
              not so hard as you might think. On a personal research level I have
              made sufficient progress to show by hand-analysis (without the
              electronic computational part) that what I am writing about is true.
              You too could be a part of this revolution in analysis and
              understanding!
             
              The alternative which the impatient ones amongst us prefer, is the
              political approach. Fine, as far as it goes, but since there are many
              interests that are driven by greed instead of honest understanding as
              above, the long term effects of political action are easily and often
              reversed. To my way of thinking this is not the best way to go, what
              we should be building is something more solid, a body of scientific
              knowledge which means a combination of good theory plus the
              experience of what happens when it is tried.
             
              I am so tired of having to communicate with in-exact scientists on
              what is actually a kind of social engineering. We should be past the
              toddling stage by now.
             
              Regards, David Chester.
              > >
              > > We are only very loosely organized for collaborative effort.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > By choice.
              >
              > > As individuals, we have the challenge of trying to change minds
              > > from the outside or committing to work within other organizations,
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Or coalescing into a movement.
              >
              > SMITH, Jeffery J.
              > President, Forum on Geonomics
              > jjs@...; www.geonomics.org
              > Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.
              >
             
             

              ________________________________

                      No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG.
              Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1377 - Release Date: 14/04/2008 9:26 AM
             

      ***********************************************************************************

      The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London hereby exclude any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this email and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited., If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster@...., This email has been sent from Transport for London, or from one of the companies within its control within the meaning of Part V of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. Further details about TfL and its subsidiary companies can be found at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/ourcompany, This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses.

      ***********************************************************************************

       

    • Wetzel Dave
      Hi Harry I know how to bore people! You ask: What are you doing between Bahrain and Ghent? Just lazing around? I know this is a joke but let s look at my
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 16 9:28 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Re: [LandCafe] Re: LT: RE: Get thru?

        Hi Harry
        I know how to bore people!

        You ask: "What are you doing between Bahrain and Ghent?
        Just lazing around?"

        I know this is a joke but let's look at my diary.

        Yesterday Heather and I were tourists in Bahrain and visited burial mounds, the Formula One car racing circuit, the causeway linking Bahrain to Saudi Arabia, Beduins with camels and took photos of the oil well fire that has been burning for almost a week. After a swim in the hotel pool we spent the evening with a Moroccan transport expert and 2 women transport engineers from Syria.  - hopefully now all LVTers!

        Today Thursday I return from Bahrain to London. (I shan't try to convert the pilot!) 

        Friday. 18th April.
        10.30am meeting with Professor Paul Ekins at Kings College London to discuss LVT and a new UK LVT-supporting academic grouping that Dr Francesca Medda and I are hoping to create. (Francesca arranged my invite to the UITP economics Group in Ghent).
        5pm I speak at leaving-do for a valued member of our TfL team of Smarter travel promoters.

        Saturday 19 April.
        I'm guest speaker on LVT at Spalding and Peterborough Labour Party's agm in Lincolnshire.
        Afterwards (and Sunday) visit my sister's family in Grantham (where Margaret Thatcher was born brought up).

        Monday. 21 April.
        9.30am meeting with Trade Union to discuss vehicle parking and safety for security drivers delivering cash to banks etc.

        2pm meeting with a Westminster Conservative Councillor to discuss traffic reductions in London's West End.

        7pm meeting of Socialist Environmental Resources Association (I'm on their Executive Committee) and Labour MPs in the House of Commons. (I shall mention LVT but the climate change will be the main theme of the meeting).

        Tuesday 22nd April.
        12.15pm Carol Wilcox (Secretary of the Labour Land Campaign) and I to meet Yvette Cooper MP (the number 2 Minister in The Treasury) to discuss LVT for the UK.

        As you know, Wednesday by EuroStar Channel Tunnel rail service to Brussels and then local train to Ghent in Belgium  for meetings re International transport and economics. (UITP).

        In between, Heather and I hope to find some time for sex! (Almost as important to us as LVT!)


        Best Wishes,
        Dave

        Dave Wetzel
        Vice-Chair TfL
        Tel: 020 7126 4200
        --------------------------

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com <LandCafe@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Wetzel Dave; landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com <LandCafe@yahoogroups.com>; landtax@... <landtax@...>
        Sent: Wed Apr 16 18:30:10 2008
        Subject: RE: [LandCafe] Re: LT:  RE: Get thru?

        David,



        What are you doing between Bahrain and Ghent?



        Just lazing around?



        I want to see a little more action out of you, young man. I want to see those inactive, wasted, periods filled in,



        Don’t worry about David Brooks, who is a good guy.



        I happen to think that socialism is completely unnecessary when we have “liberty and justice for all”.



        For some strange reason you think I am wrong and that “liberty and justice for all” requires socialism. Can’t understand how you could think this.



        However, Henry George spoke favorably of the ideals of socialism – as he should, for they are Georgist ideals too.



        These ‘tempests in a teapot’ remind me of the more serious tempests in Spain when the opposition to Franco seemed to spend as much time fighting each other as they spent fighting Franco and his Nazi support.



        I wonder why Franco won?



        Harry



        ******************************

        Harry Pollard

        Henry George School of Los Angeles

        Box 655

        Tujunga  CA  91042

        (818) 352-4141

        ******************************



        From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wetzel Dave
        Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:28 PM
        To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com; landtax@...
        Subject: [LandCafe] Re: LT: RE: Get thru?



        David Brooks wrote:
        [There are] "those who only see economic [LVT] reform. The latter are mainly socialist & regard socialism as the main event. You can see this in their writing and utterings. These are those who want "congestion" charges and "resource" charges, and "pollution" taxes, wish to charge for the casual use of common land & proclaim loudly that these are "Georgist."
        And he added:
        "Those who wish to advocate "modern" Geoism should go & join the Labor (or whatever that is in the US) party and stop cluttering up the efforts of those who are actually Georgists."
        David Brooks.
        --------------------------
        From Dave Wetzel :
        It is an interesting position that you expound David Brooks.

        It implies that Georgist's like you want me and many others to shut up about LVT.

        On Monday of last week I met a delegation of South African MPs who were visiting London, UK to find out more about our congestion charge scheme and successful transport policies (road casualties down, bus patronage up 53% and cycling up 84% for example). Of course I also used half of our two hours to discuss LVT and have correspondd by e-mail since with the ANC MP who led the delegation.

        Wednesday and Thursday last week I was in Dublin as the guest of Feasta, a green  environmental lobby group full of young people who are serious about climate change and LVT. They arranged my trip where I did a Radio interview on congestion charging and LVT and spoke about Annual Land Value Tax at the Dublin Institute of Technology for 45 minutes - a decent time to develop an argument.

        I am now in Bahrain as the guest in a 5 star hotel of their Ministry of Transport, where on Monday morning I was the keynote speaker together with the Deputy Transport Minister of Bahrain at the opening ceremony of the "ARAB ITS" (Intellegent Transport Systems) annual  conference with about 400 delegates from around the globe but mainly from the Gulf and the Middle East. I spoke on congestion charging and Annual Land Value Tax. I later gave a small seminar on LVT in the hotel's business centre for a few delegates who showed a special interest and many delegates took copies of my presentation on their memory sticks and laptops.

        Next week I go to Ghent in Belgium where I have been especially invited to discuss LVT with the Economics Working Group of the UITP, an international public transport body.
         
        I know that I am only one of several socialists who advocate LVT.

        What does David Brooks want? - Socialists like me to cease advocating LVT to all and sundry? - because we also advocate socialism in preference to laisey-faire global capitalism?


        Best Wishes,
        Dave

        Dave Wetzel
        Vice-Chair TfL
        Tel: 020 7126 4200
        --------------------------

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
        To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue Apr 15 01:49:45 2008
        Subject: Re: LT:  RE: Get thru?

        Yes David Chester,
                                George also said that "there are those among us, who, seeing the fiscal beauty....."
        So we have three clear types of Georgist.
        Those who see his philosophy - Freedom.
        Those who only see economic reform. The latter are mainly socialist & regard socialism as the main event. You can see this in their writing and utterings. These are those who want "congestion" charges and "resource" charges, and "pollution" taxes, wish to charge for the casual use of common land & proclaim loudly that these are "Georgist."
        Those who don't quite know why they believe.
        But the discussion on this list goes on forever without doing much to define or reach a conclusion or promote the scientific approach. There is as much (maybe more) discussion of money as there is of LVT (or whatever they wish to call it this week). The beauty of discussing money is the lack of definition of terms.

        The school system was set up for what schools do. Teach. Only one school in Australia actually teaches(the NSW AGG).
        Schooling is the only way I know of teaching science. Yes there are exceptions - but few. People who pass through our schools generally understand the philosophy and follow it. They understand the terminology and do not, like the second group, repeatedly use obtuse terms which diminish the philosophy. (This, I believe, is deliberate.)
        The third group will always be there.
        So this very loosely knit organisation is split by dissent about the philosophy we advocate. There is no clear path! While this remains the way the influence and membership will continue to decline. Those who wish to advocate "modern" Geoism should go & join the Labor (or whatever that is in the US) party and stop cluttering up the efforts of those who are actually Georgists.

        David Brooks
        Freedom is the only end
        http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical <http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical>  <http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical > >

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: David Chester <
        mailto:chesterdh@... > >
                To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com > >
                Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 8:06 PM
                Subject: Re: LT: RE: Get thru?


                --- In landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com > > , "Jeffery J. Smith" <jjs@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Apr 12, 2008, at 8:22 AM, Edward Dodson wrote:
                > >
                > > What works best?
              
                There is no doubt in my mind as to what works best. The only way that
                our ideas can be made to stick is by the spreading of scientific
                knowledge about macroeconomics. We ourselves are weak in this subject
                because what we think is important is only a small part of the "big
                picture" of the national system of our socierty (which because it is
                big is not necessarily complicated). Henry George has certainly
                pointed us in the right direction but where are our developments of
                his wordy theory? Where is our detailed knowledge of the way we are
                going when LVT is not employed?
              
                Therefore we should first get our facts about the whole system solid
                by building a science that actually explains how it functions and
                then to demonstrate and prove the beneficial effect of introducing
                LVT, to work by simulation methods using models of our system. The
                non-mathematical ones amongst us may shy from this, but in fact it is
                not so hard as you might think. On a personal research level I have
                made sufficient progress to show by hand-analysis (without the
                electronic computational part) that what I am writing about is true.
                You too could be a part of this revolution in analysis and
                understanding!
              
                The alternative which the impatient ones amongst us prefer, is the
                political approach. Fine, as far as it goes, but since there are many
                interests that are driven by greed instead of honest understanding as
                above, the long term effects of political action are easily and often
                reversed. To my way of thinking this is not the best way to go, what
                we should be building is something more solid, a body of scientific
                knowledge which means a combination of good theory plus the
                experience of what happens when it is tried.
              
                I am so tired of having to communicate with in-exact scientists on
                what is actually a kind of social engineering. We should be past the
                toddling stage by now.
              
                Regards, David Chester.
                > >
                > > We are only very loosely organized for collaborative effort.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > By choice.
                >
                > > As individuals, we have the challenge of trying to change minds
                > > from the outside or committing to work within other organizations,
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Or coalescing into a movement.
                >
                > SMITH, Jeffery J.
                > President, Forum on Geonomics
                > jjs@...; www.geonomics.org
                > Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.
                >
              
              

                ________________________________

                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG.
                Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1377 - Release Date: 14/04/2008 9:26 AM
              



        ***********************************************************************************

        The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London hereby exclude any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this email and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited., If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster@...., This email has been sent from Transport for London, or from one of the companies within its control within the meaning of Part V of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. Further details about TfL and its subsidiary companies can be found at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/ourcompany, This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses.

        ***********************************************************************************




      • Harry Pollard
        Dave, I SPRANG to the stirrup, and Joris, and he; I gallop’d, Dirck gallop’d, we gallop’d all three; “Good speed !” cried the watch, as the
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 18 9:37 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Re: [LandCafe] Re: LT: RE: Get thru?

          Dave,

           

          I SPRANG to the stirrup, and Joris, and he;

          I gallop’d, Dirck gallop’d, we gallop’d all three;      

          “Good speed !” cried the watch, as the gate-bolts undrew;     

          “Speed!” echoed the wall to us galloping through;

           

          So, they carried the good news from Ghent to Aix.

           

          What’s the matter with you?

           

          Have you lost your sense of priority?

           

          Do you put going to Ghent before the job of producing a hoard of little Wetzels?  If you think that going to Ghent is better than reproducing Wetzels all over the neighborhood, I’m sorry.

           

          Just leave a little time for the next generation. Maybe you could change to fast food, or cut back on the time you waste sleeping.

           

          Yet, I have to confess that your work load is impressive.

           

          Even if you don’t gallop!

           

          Harry

           

          ******************************

          Harry Pollard

          Henry George School of Los Angeles

          Box 655

          Tujunga  CA  91042

          (818) 352-4141

          ******************************

           

          From: Wetzel Dave [mailto:Davewetzel@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:29 PM
          To: henrygeorgeschool@...; landtheory@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com; landtax@...; f.medda@...; jjs@...
          Subject: Re: [LandCafe] Re: LT: RE: Get thru?

           

          Hi Harry
          I know how to bore people!

          You ask: "What are you doing between Bahrain and Ghent?
          Just lazing around?"

          I know this is a joke but let's look at my diary.

          Yesterday Heather and I were tourists in Bahrain and visited burial mounds, the Formula One car racing circuit, the causeway linking Bahrain to Saudi Arabia, Beduins with camels and took photos of the oil well fire that has been burning for almost a week. After a swim in the hotel pool we spent the evening with a Moroccan transport expert and 2 women transport engineers from Syria.  - hopefully now all LVTers!

          Today Thursday I return from Bahrain to London. (I shan't try to convert the pilot!) 

          Friday. 18th April.
          10.30am meeting with Professor Paul Ekins at Kings College London to discuss LVT and a new UK LVT-supporting academic grouping that Dr Francesca Medda and I are hoping to create. (Francesca arranged my invite to the UITP economics Group in Ghent).
          5pm I speak at leaving-do for a valued member of our TfL team of Smarter travel promoters.

          Saturday 19 April.
          I'm guest speaker on LVT at Spalding and Peterborough Labour Party's agm in Lincolnshire.
          Afterwards (and Sunday) visit my sister's family in Grantham (where Margaret Thatcher was born brought up).

          Monday. 21 April.
          9.30am meeting with Trade Union to discuss vehicle parking and safety for security drivers delivering cash to banks etc.

          2pm meeting with a Westminster Conservative Councillor to discuss traffic reductions in London's West End.

          7pm meeting of Socialist Environmental Resources Association (I'm on their Executive Committee) and Labour MPs in the House of Commons. (I shall mention LVT but the climate change will be the main theme of the meeting).

          Tuesday 22nd April.
          12.15pm Carol Wilcox (Secretary of the Labour Land Campaign) and I to meet Yvette Cooper MP (the number 2 Minister in The Treasury) to discuss LVT for the UK.

          As you know, Wednesday by EuroStar Channel Tunnel rail service to Brussels and then local train to Ghent in Belgium  for meetings re International transport and economics. (UITP).

          In between, Heather and I hope to find some time for sex! (Almost as important to us as LVT!)


          Best Wishes,
          Dave

          Dave Wetzel
          Vice-Chair TfL
          Tel: 020 7126 4200
          --------------------------

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com <LandCafe@yahoogroups.com>
          To: Wetzel Dave; landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com <LandCafe@yahoogroups.com>; landtax@... <landtax@...>
          Sent: Wed Apr 16 18:30:10 2008
          Subject: RE: [LandCafe] Re: LT:  RE: Get thru?

          David,



          What are you doing between Bahrain and Ghent?



          Just lazing around?



          I want to see a little more action out of you, young man. I want to see those inactive, wasted, periods filled in,



          Don’t worry about David Brooks, who is a good guy.



          I happen to think that socialism is completely unnecessary when we have “liberty and justice for all”.



          For some strange reason you think I am wrong and that “liberty and justice for all” requires socialism. Can’t understand how you could think this.



          However, Henry George spoke favorably of the ideals of socialism – as he should, for they are Georgist ideals too.



          These ‘tempests in a teapot’ remind me of the more serious tempests in Spain when the opposition to Franco seemed to spend as much time fighting each other as they spent fighting Franco and his Nazi support.



          I wonder why Franco won?



          Harry



          ******************************

          Harry Pollard

          Henry George School of Los Angeles

          Box 655

          Tujunga  CA  91042

          (818) 352-4141

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          From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wetzel Dave
          Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:28 PM
          To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com; landtax@...
          Subject: [LandCafe] Re: LT: RE: Get thru?



          David Brooks wrote:
          [There are] "those who only see economic [LVT] reform. The latter are mainly socialist & regard socialism as the main event. You can see this in their writing and utterings. These are those who want "congestion" charges and "resource" charges, and "pollution" taxes, wish to charge for the casual use of common land & proclaim loudly that these are "Georgist."
          And he added:
          "Those who wish to advocate "modern" Geoism should go & join the Labor (or whatever that is in the US) party and stop cluttering up the efforts of those who are actually Georgists."
          David Brooks.
          --------------------------
          From Dave Wetzel :
          It is an interesting position that you expound David Brooks.

          It implies that Georgist's like you want me and many others to shut up about LVT.

          On Monday of last week I met a delegation of South African MPs who were visiting London, UK to find out more about our congestion charge scheme and successful transport policies (road casualties down, bus patronage up 53% and cycling up 84% for example). Of course I also used half of our two hours to discuss LVT and have correspondd by e-mail since with the ANC MP who led the delegation.

          Wednesday and Thursday last week I was in Dublin as the guest of Feasta, a green  environmental lobby group full of young people who are serious about climate change and LVT. They arranged my trip where I did a Radio interview on congestion charging and LVT and spoke about Annual Land Value Tax at the Dublin Institute of Technology for 45 minutes - a decent time to develop an argument.

          I am now in Bahrain as the guest in a 5 star hotel of their Ministry of Transport, where on Monday morning I was the keynote speaker together with the Deputy Transport Minister of Bahrain at the opening ceremony of the "ARAB ITS" (Intellegent Transport Systems) annual  conference with about 400 delegates from around the globe but mainly from the Gulf and the Middle East. I spoke on congestion charging and Annual Land Value Tax. I later gave a small seminar on LVT in the hotel's business centre for a few delegates who showed a special interest and many delegates took copies of my presentation on their memory sticks and laptops.

          Next week I go to Ghent in Belgium where I have been especially invited to discuss LVT with the Economics Working Group of the UITP, an international public transport body.
           
          I know that I am only one of several socialists who advocate LVT.

          What does David Brooks want? - Socialists like me to cease advocating LVT to all and sundry? - because we also advocate socialism in preference to laisey-faire global capitalism?


          Best Wishes,
          Dave

          Dave Wetzel
          Vice-Chair TfL
          Tel: 020 7126 4200
          --------------------------

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
          To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tue Apr 15 01:49:45 2008
          Subject: Re: LT:  RE: Get thru?

          Yes David Chester,
                                  George also said that "there are those among us, who, seeing the fiscal beauty....."
          So we have three clear types of Georgist.
          Those who see his philosophy - Freedom.
          Those who only see economic reform. The latter are mainly socialist & regard socialism as the main event. You can see this in their writing and utterings. These are those who want "congestion" charges and "resource" charges, and "pollution" taxes, wish to charge for the casual use of common land & proclaim loudly that these are "Georgist."
          Those who don't quite know why they believe.
          But the discussion on this list goes on forever without doing much to define or reach a conclusion or promote the scientific approach. There is as much (maybe more) discussion of money as there is of LVT (or whatever they wish to call it this week). The beauty of discussing money is the lack of definition of terms.

          The school system was set up for what schools do. Teach. Only one school in Australia actually teaches(the NSW AGG).
          Schooling is the only way I know of teaching science. Yes there are exceptions - but few. People who pass through our schools generally understand the philosophy and follow it. They understand the terminology and do not, like the second group, repeatedly use obtuse terms which diminish the philosophy. (This, I believe, is deliberate.)
          The third group will always be there.
          So this very loosely knit organisation is split by dissent about the philosophy we advocate. There is no clear path! While this remains the way the influence and membership will continue to decline. Those who wish to advocate "modern" Geoism should go & join the Labor (or whatever that is in the US) party and stop cluttering up the efforts of those who are actually Georgists.

          David Brooks
          Freedom is the only end
          http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical <http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical>  <http://people.aapt.net.au/~radical > >

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: David Chester <
          mailto:chesterdh@... <mailto:chesterdh@...> >
                  To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com> >
                  Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 8:06 PM
                  Subject: Re: LT: RE: Get thru?


                  --- In landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com <mailto:landtheory@yahoogroups.com> > , "Jeffery J. Smith" <jjs@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Apr 12, 2008, at 8:22 AM, Edward Dodson wrote:
                  > >
                  > > What works best?
                
                  There is no doubt in my mind as to what works best. The only way that
                  our ideas can be made to stick is by the spreading of scientific
                  knowledge about macroeconomics. We ourselves are weak in this subject
                  because what we think is important is only a small part of the "big
                  picture" of the national system of our socierty (which because it is
                  big is not necessarily complicated). Henry George has certainly
                  pointed us in the right direction but where are our developments of
                  his wordy theory? Where is our detailed knowledge of the way we are
                  going when LVT is not employed?
                
                  Therefore we should first get our facts about the whole system solid
                  by building a science that actually explains how it functions and
                  then to demonstrate and prove the beneficial effect of introducing
                  LVT, to work by simulation methods using models of our system. The
                  non-mathematical ones amongst us may shy from this, but in fact it is
                  not so hard as you might think. On a personal research level I have
                  made sufficient progress to show by hand-analysis (without the
                  electronic computational part) that what I am writing about is true.
                  You too could be a part of this revolution in analysis and
                  understanding!
                
                  The alternative which the impatient ones amongst us prefer, is the
                  political approach. Fine, as far as it goes, but since there are many
                  interests that are driven by greed instead of honest understanding as
                  above, the long term effects of political action are easily and often
                  reversed. To my way of thinking this is not the best way to go, what
                  we should be building is something more solid, a body of scientific
                  knowledge which means a combination of good theory plus the
                  experience of what happens when it is tried.
                
                  I am so tired of having to communicate with in-exact scientists on
                  what is actually a kind of social engineering. We should be past the
                  toddling stage by now.
                
                  Regards, David Chester.
                  > >
                  > > We are only very loosely organized for collaborative effort.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > By choice.
                  >
                  > > As individuals, we have the challenge of trying to change minds
                  > > from the outside or committing to work within other organizations,
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Or coalescing into a movement.
                  >
                  > SMITH, Jeffery J.
                  > President, Forum on Geonomics
                  > jjs@...; www.geonomics.org
                  > Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.
                  >
                
                

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        • Wetzel Dave
          Dave Wetzel wrote: All good questions that surely we are all trying to answer in our own way with our own activities. Jeffery Smith replied: soloism is not
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 18 10:53 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Re: LT: RE: Get thru?

            Dave Wetzel wrote:
            "All good questions that surely we are all trying to answer in our own way with our own activities."

            Jeffery Smith replied: "soloism is not a movement. For the philosophy to prevail, must it be moved concertedly?"

            From Dave Wetzel:

            Yes, it must Jeffery. But not everybody wishes to be as active as others and don't let's ignore the splendid efforts of those who are very active but choose to work alone. 

            However, for myself, in the 1960s I joined the Henry George Foundation and have served on their Executive.

             In 1983 (together with others and a small legacy from my father, Fred Wetzel) I started the Labour Land Campaign.
             (See: www.LabourLand.org )

            In 2004 with Ashis Choudhury  I established the Professional Land Reform Group.

            In 2005 with Eric Briton (an American living in Paris) we started the Land Café discussion/action list. 

            In 2007 with Jacob Kestner the Green Tax Network.

            And now in 2008 with Dr Francesca Medda of University College London we're starting CUSP (The Centre for Urban Sustainable Policies) bringing together UK academics who support Annual Land Value Tax.

            The Labour Land Campaign is affiliated to the CGO (Conference of Georgist Organisations).

            I also sit on the Executive Committee of the IU (The International Union for Land Value Tax and Free Trade).

            Best Wishes,
            Dave

            Dave Wetzel
            Vice-Chair TfL
            Tel: 020 7126 4200
            --------------------------

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
            To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com <landtheory@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sat Apr 19 03:55:31 2008
            Subject: Re: LT:  RE: Get thru?

            On Apr 18, 2008, at 12:26 AM, Wetzel Dave wrote:

                           
                    All good questions that surely we are all trying to answer in our own way with our own activities.

                   


            Surely you're right, but soloism is not a movement. For the philosophy to prevail, must it be moved concertedly?

            SMITH, Jeffery J.
            President, Forum on Geonomics
            jjs@...; www.geonomics.org <http://www.geonomics.org>
            Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.




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            The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London hereby exclude any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this email and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited., If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster@...., This email has been sent from Transport for London, or from one of the companies within its control within the meaning of Part V of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. Further details about TfL and its subsidiary companies can be found at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/ourcompany, This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses.

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          • Jeffery J. Smith
            ... After a couple of meetings with major foundations that fund cutting- edge work in the environmental movement, and hearing the same reply from all these
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 19 11:16 AM
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              On Apr 18, 2008, at 10:53 PM, Wetzel Dave wrote:


              Yes, it must Jeffery. But not everybody wishes to be as active as others and don't let's ignore the splendid efforts of those who are very active but choose to work alone.





              After a couple of meetings with major foundations that fund cutting-edge work in the environmental movement, and hearing the same reply from all these funders, I'm ready to make amends. All, without exception, say: "we don't fund soloists" - and for good reason. When a soloist quits, it's done, over, vanished; but a real organization keeps on working. There are other important reasons: an organization is something others can join, an individual is not (typically, unless very charismatic and then usually a bit power-mad). An organization has a presence in the community and can grow. Etc. It just seems more rational to heed their advice and less rational to ignore it (altho' rationality is not exactly a prime mover in political circles). Interesting how our idea appeals largely to soloists, not so much to organizational types, and how that holds us back.

              SMITH, Jeffery J.
              President, Forum on Geonomics
              Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.


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