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Re: [LandCafe] capitalism

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  • Wetzel Dave
    Dan writes: the assertion that started this discussion was that we must ally ourselves entirely with socialists and the left, and alienate any allies we might
    Message 1 of 230 , Dec 31, 2007
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      Re: [LandCafe] capitalism

      Dan writes:
       "the assertion that started this discussion was that we must ally ourselves entirely with socialists and the left, and alienate any allies we might have on the right. It is a demand that socialists have been making for as long as I have known them"

      As a socialist and Annual Land Value Taxer I do not expect Georgists to ally themselves with socialism and alienate any supporters on the right - what I would find useful is if we tried to build bridges with both schools of thought instead of attacking them.

      Eg when I meet Conservative MPs and Councillors they know I'm on the left of the UK's socialist party (the Labour Party) and that I disagree with their Tory philosophy, but I tell them that LVT would work well for the British people, regardless whether a Labour or Conservative Government introduced it.  

      It is unnecessary and indulgent for us as LVTers to attack the beliefs of others, whether political or religious, what I try to do is to gain an understanding of economics and LVT in ALL mainstream political parties irrespective whether they are on the right, on the left or in the centre.

      Best Wishes,
      Dave

      Dave Wetzel
      Vice-Chair TfL
      Tel: 020 7126 4200
      --------------------------

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com <LandCafe@yahoogroups.com>
      To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com <LandCafe@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon Dec 31 14:44:07 2007
      Subject: RE: [LandCafe] capitalism

      On 31 Dec 2007 at 14:34, Paul Metz wrote:

      > This invitation was a side remark in my broader contribution
      > and aimed at those criticizing socialism without balance.

      Who might that be? I know of nobody on this list who does not
      criticize the system that some term capitalism, but that is really
      capitalized privilege. Albert Jay Nock called "socialism" and
      "capitalism" "imposter terms," because all systems are social, and all
      systems rely on capital.

      Indeed, those critical of socialism have been careful to make similarly
      critical comments about right wing monopolists, even though the
      assertion that started this discussion was that we must ally ourselves
      entirely with socialists and the left, and alienate any allies we might
      have on the right. It is a demand that socialists have been making for
      as long as I have known them, and reading of both pro-socialist and
      anti-socialist literature shows it to be a demand socialists have made
      throughout history. It's part of the "us vs. them" mentality of a class-
      warfare ideology.

      It is clearly the position of Bernard Rooney and Julien Gross. Is it
      anyone else's position on this list?

      -ds




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    • Harry Pollard
      I shall contrive a cheerful demeanor next summer, even if the UK is practically underwater. Thanks for the tip! It s worth an extra pint. Harry From: Joshua
      Message 230 of 230 , Jan 7, 2008
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        Re: [LandCafe] Re: total land rent

        I shall contrive a cheerful demeanor next summer, even if the UK is practically underwater.

         

        Thanks for the tip! It’s worth an extra pint.

         

        Harry

         

         

        From: Joshua Vincent [mailto:centerforthestudyofeconomics@...]
        Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:46 AM
        To: Wetzel Dave; henrygeorgeschool@...; landcafe@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [LandCafe] Re: total land rent

         


        Harry:

        I can vouch for the fact that if one is of cheerful demeanour and of the  Georgist spirit, Dave will stand you for TWO pints!



        Joshua Vincent, Director Center for the Study of Economics 1518 Walnut Street, Suite 604 Philadelphia, Pa 19102 USA www.urbantools.org http://savingthecity.blogspot.com 215.545.6004


        Subject: Re: [LandCafe] Re: total land rent
        Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:40:46 +0000
        From: Davewetzel@...
        To: henrygeorgeschool@...; centerforthestudyofeconomics@...; LandCafe@yahoogroups.com

        Cheers Harry
        I look forward to buying you a pint in a London pub.
        And that goes for any other land taxer who visits London.

         Happy New Year
        Best Wishes,
        Dave

        Dave Wetzel
        Vice-Chair TfL
        Tel: 020 7126 4200
        --------------------------

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com <LandCafe@yahoogroups.com>
        To: 'Joshua Vincent' <centerforthestudyofeconomics@...>; 'landcafe' <landcafe@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sun Jan 06 17:13:12 2008
        Subject: RE: [LandCafe] Re: total land rent

        Josh,



        Don’t think it does much harm.



        I hope to get over to the UK this year and might get the opportunity to put friend Dave right – preferably over a pint or two.



        On the other hand, I’ve been trying to put Roy Douglas right for more than 50 years without much success.



        The important thing is that we are all trying to achieve a better life for all, whatever our politics.



        And we know the way to go.



        Harry



        From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Vincent
        Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 AM
        To: landcafe
        Subject: RE: [LandCafe] Re: total land rent




        Dave - As a long-time Georgist trying to get LVT in place wherever possible, I accept assistance from all walks of the political spectrum. The art of politics is the art of attaining the possible. So, I work with Pat Toomey from the Club for Growth and my mate Dave the Socialist. They both agree on LVT, and would agree on nothing else.

        If all we care about is fine points of doctrine, then by all means go on and on and on, with sporadic outbursts of aggressive and inchoate derision.

        Land Cafe should never have been allowed to become what it is. What can we do to right this ship?

        Joshua Vincent, Director
        Center for the Study of Economics
        1518 Walnut Street, Suite 604
        Philadelphia, Pa 19102 USA
        www.urbantools.org
        http://savingthecity.blogspot.com <http://savingthecity.blogspot.com>
        215.545.6004

        Dave Wetzel's response:

        I AM a socialist.

        Why do Georgists continually use the term "socialist" as an insult?

        Do Georgists not want the Labour, Trade Union and Co-operative Movement to adopt LVT?

        Do we have to drop all our beliefs and adopt Henry George's mumbo jumbo about there being a Christian God before I, a socialist, or Muslims, Budhists, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics etc can promote or adopt the idea of Annual Land Value Tax?

        In the UK the Labour Land Campaign has persuaded the minority left-wing socialist grouping within the ruling Labour Party - "the Labour Representation Committee" to adopt the idea of "a modest LVT" to replace the local property tax.

        We have also discussed LVT with the militant transport trade union representing railway workers and seamen (RMT) who's General Secretary is Marxist. They have just agreed to affiliate to our campaign for LVT.

        Should we tell these Socialists and Marxists to forget LVT unless they are prepared to support all the writings of Henry George?

        Do you think we would have got anywhere by insulting their beliefs before advocating the benefits that workers, the unemployed, consumers and taxpayers can all derive from the introduction of LVT?

        Season's Greetings,

        Best Wishes,
        Dave



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