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Pope to address charity vs justice

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  • Bill Batt
    Folks, According to the NY Times-- see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/world/americas/pope-in-an-angered-brazil-to-focus-on-social-justice.html?hp -- this
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 20, 2013
      Folks, According to the NY Times-- see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/world/americas/pope-in-an-angered-brazil-to-focus-on-social-justice.html?hp -- this pope is going to focus on social justice as opposed to charity.  This was an issue posed by Henry George in his book The Condition of Labor in 1891 -- see http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/george-henry_justice-not-charity-1891.html. 

      This may be a silly question, but is there any way we can send a message to the pope?  Since some of us -- like Mason -- have argued that Rerum Novarum was specifically a response to HG, perhaps this perspective could catch his eye. Is it worth a shot? If so, how?  B.
       
      Bill Batt
      680 N. Pearl St., Albany, New York 12204-1729
      v: 518-462-5068; fax: 866-492-9804  hwbatt@...
      most of my recent work at centralresearchgroup.org
      *The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one*
      Archilochus (c.650 B.C.)
    • roy_langston
      ... As the world s largest private landowner, the Catholic Church is very unlikely to be interested in justice. -- Roy Langston
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 20, 2013
        --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, Bill Batt <hwbatt@...> wrote:

        > Folks, According to the NY Times-- see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/world/americas/pope-in-an-angered-brazil-to-focus-on-social-justice.html?hp -- this pope is going to focus on social justice as opposed to charity.  This was an issue posed by Henry George in his book The Condition of Labor in 1891 -- see http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/george-henry_justice-not-charity-1891.html.%c2%a0
        >
        > This may be a silly question, but is there any way we can send a message to the pope?  Since some of us -- like Mason -- have argued that Rerum Novarum was specifically a response to HG, perhaps this perspective could catch his eye. Is it worth a shot? If so, how?  B.

        As the world's largest private landowner, the Catholic Church is very unlikely to be interested in justice.

        -- Roy Langston
      • David Reed
        There might be big problems of internal Catholic politics in getting the Pope onside and supportive of LVT, quite apart from the surreal dimension! Henry Law ,
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 20, 2013
          There might be big problems of internal Catholic politics in getting the Pope onside and supportive of LVT, quite apart from the surreal dimension! Henry Law , who blogs as  Physiocrat ,can be found on the Net wondering was "Cardinal Manning a Georgist "but suggests that Manning may have blotted his copybook by having Georgist sympathies and  that the commonly accepted belief that Manning was behind Rerum Novarum does not take into account the possibility that his influence might have been diluted during the re-drafting process.
          In the event Rerum  Novarum had a considerable influence in the UK where Distributism,  which developed its ideas of widely distributed property through the work of H. Belloc and G.K.Chesterton, became part of the Thirties mix of fringe intellectual movements which included Social Credit, Guild Socialism , the National Guilds etc .George Orwell first worked in a Distributist framework so published in GK's Weekly and Barry Druker argued convincingly in the Chesterton Review  that Orwell's 1984 is a Distributist text.
          More to the point the Catholic Church appears at an earlier date to have been firmly behind the peasant proprietorship model of land reform In Ireland (giving Chesterton much hope for England) which eventually won out against the superior claims of Michael Davitt ( Georgist) and James Connolly (Land nationaliser).
          Which is to say there might be a deeply entrenched tradition in the Catholic Church favouring homeownership for the workers which has in the UK and US been paralleled by the growth of Homeownerism which resists all plans to tax the land under ordinary houses.
          Also the Catholic Church is so beset with accusations of mass sexual abuse that it is compromised as an ally.
          To: landtheory@yahoogroups.com; landcafe@yahoogroups.com
          From: hwbatt@...

          Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 11:51:50 -0700
          Subject: [LandCafe] Pope to address charity vs justice

           
          Folks, According to the NY Times-- see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/world/americas/pope-in-an-angered-brazil-to-focus-on-social-justice.html?hp -- this pope is going to focus on social justice as opposed to charity.  This was an issue posed by Henry George in his book The Condition of Labor in 1891 -- see http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/george-henry_justice-not-charity-1891.html. 

          This may be a silly question, but is there any way we can send a message to the pope?  Since some of us -- like Mason -- have argued that Rerum Novarum was specifically a response to HG, perhaps this perspective could catch his eye. Is it worth a shot? If so, how?  B.
           
          Bill Batt
          680 N. Pearl St., Albany, New York 12204-1729
          v: 518-462-5068; fax: 866-492-9804  hwbatt@...
          most of my recent work at centralresearchgroup.org
          *The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one*
          Archilochus (c.650 B.C.)


        • John
          Religious people tend to shy away from politics. Geonomics , a economic system, would attract them as it is apolitical. A sect like Georgeism would put them
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 21, 2013
            Religious people tend to shy away from politics. "Geonomics", a economic system, would attract them as it is apolitical. A sect like Georgeism would put them off.
          • walto
            ... FWIW, an avid amateur photographer friend of mine was recently thrown out of the Vatican simply for carrying a tripod. Apparently, they don t want any
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 21, 2013
              --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, Bill Batt <hwbatt@> wrote:
              >
              > > Folks, According to the NY Times-- see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/world/americas/pope-in-an-angered-brazil-to-focus-on-social-justice.html?hp -- this pope is going to focus on social justice as opposed to charity.  This was an issue posed by Henry George in his book The Condition of Labor in 1891 -- see http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/george-henry_justice-not-charity-1891.html.%c2%a0
              > >
              > > This may be a silly question, but is there any way we can send a message to the pope?  Since some of us -- like Mason -- have argued that Rerum Novarum was specifically a response to HG, perhaps this perspective could catch his eye. Is it worth a shot? If so, how?  B.
              >
              > As the world's largest private landowner, the Catholic Church is very unlikely to be interested in justice.
              >
              > -- Roy Langston
              >

              FWIW, an avid amateur photographer friend of mine was recently thrown out of the Vatican simply for carrying a tripod. Apparently, they don't want any high quality pictures competing with the stuff they can sell--and anybody with a tripod must be in the business of selling photos, right?

              What I take from this is that just as that church will allow pictures as long as they're crappy and unlikely to harm their pecuniary interests, they won't oppose any particular economic theories, as long as they consist largely of platitudes (and, again, can't harm their financial interests).

              W
            • mattbieker
              I m of the opinion that the entire raison d etre of organized religion in general is to enrich the clergy. Sure, there may be actions occasionally taken to
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 21, 2013
                I'm of the opinion that the entire raison d'etre of organized religion in general is to enrich the clergy. Sure, there may be actions occasionally taken to actually do good -after all, you have to *look* busy- but IMO, it'd be foolish to confuse such programs with an earnest desire to to good above all else. IMO, this is especially clear with Catholocism, where there's a hierarchy which makes a king of the leader, and the religion literally has its own home country.

                One never knows, of course, and maybe this Pope is an exceptional human determined to make a difference. But that's not where I'd spend my resources, personally.

                --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "walto" <calhorn@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, Bill Batt <hwbatt@> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Folks, According to the NY Times-- see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/world/americas/pope-in-an-angered-brazil-to-focus-on-social-justice.html?hp -- this pope is going to focus on social justice as opposed to charity.  This was an issue posed by Henry George in his book The Condition of Labor in 1891 -- see http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/george-henry_justice-not-charity-1891.html.%c2%a0
                > > >
                > > > This may be a silly question, but is there any way we can send a message to the pope?  Since some of us -- like Mason -- have argued that Rerum Novarum was specifically a response to HG, perhaps this perspective could catch his eye. Is it worth a shot? If so, how?  B.
                > >
                > > As the world's largest private landowner, the Catholic Church is very unlikely to be interested in justice.
                > >
                > > -- Roy Langston
                > >
                >
                > FWIW, an avid amateur photographer friend of mine was recently thrown out of the Vatican simply for carrying a tripod. Apparently, they don't want any high quality pictures competing with the stuff they can sell--and anybody with a tripod must be in the business of selling photos, right?
                >
                > What I take from this is that just as that church will allow pictures as long as they're crappy and unlikely to harm their pecuniary interests, they won't oppose any particular economic theories, as long as they consist largely of platitudes (and, again, can't harm their financial interests).
                >
                > W
                >
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