RE: [LandCafe] Re: New Fred Harrison Video
The Alumni Group
Henry George School
Of Los Angeles
Tujunga CA 91042
>I fail to see how Roy's opinions constitute flaming. For myself, I'm divided on how I feel about unions. On the one hand, the right here in the US constantly attacks unions in dubious ways (for example, the attack on teacher's unions, as the cause of a bogus education "crisis"), whereas, on the other hand, I believe that unions have done a considerable amount of good. Where they stand in a just society is an open questions, but I tend to agree that privilege, whatever its form, should be eliminated.
> Many thanks for directing to Wikipedia on the subject of Fisking
> I was not previously aware of the sub-varieties of flaming, eristic argument and the spiral of silence which are listed at the end of the entry. All are pertinent to the present issue, none more so than the spiral of silence.
> I am astonished that I am the only one taking offence at Roy Langston's extreme right-wing attacks (flaming) on trade unions, which are legitimate constituents of any democratic society, though, of late, restricted from enforcing closed shops by a great deal of legislation.
> It is impossible to ward off the feeling that the silence of other customers indicates that maybe a majority is of RL's opinion and that the original aims of Dave Wetzel ,a staunch trade unionist and socialist, in jointly setting up land café to promote LVT's place in progressive opinion and policy making have been trashed or subverted by smack talk (see Wikipedia list).Have you considered that Dave may be open to hearing dissenting opinions? Honestly, I think there's generally a pretty wide line between trolling and legitimate opposition. There's many issues I feel quite strongly about that, nevertheless, I can understand where others may disagree. In this group, the only thing I expect everyone to agree on is that the LVT is a good idea. Other than that, I assume there will be widespread disagreement. In theory, members of this group could argue in favor of their opinions and either persuade others, or agree to disagree. Though we're all fallible, we should at least make an attempt to see things from the other side, and understand that reasonable people can disagree on matters of consequence. An attempt should be made to not make matters personal.
If you, or me, or Roy, or Walt, or Harry, or any other member of this group makes crap arguments, it should be a relatively straight-forward matter to show that they're crap. Let's stick to that, please.
- Message received and understood.
I would say in my own defence that I try to avoid tangling with Langston. The last set-to
arose from an open posting of a quote from the IFS( followed by a long quote from The Observer) which indicated that real wages in the UK had fallen because of the decline in unionisation. Cue the eruption of Langston with a lot of anti-union prejudice and no facts or quotes of his own He is still calling me a "union yob " in his last posting.
I will abide by this decision but I don't know what I'll do if another outburst of anti union rhetoric occurs. I thought ,because of the involvement of Dave Wetzel, that this site was broadly progressive in the old, left of centre way that has a place for unions .
This set-to was very relevant to LVT because Langston has been declaring, that post -LVT, wages should go down.
To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com; roy_langston@...; dbcreed@...
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:35:39 +0200
Subject: RE: [LandCafe] Re: LETS Instantiate AGAIN New Fred Harrison Video
David Reed, Roy Langston,
If this conversation continues to degrade we will ask you both to leave this conference. This sort of thing is not why we are here.
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