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RE: [LandCafe] Re: What is monetary reform?

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  • Harry Pollard
    David, Absent full rent collection, land-values are notoriously volatile. Yet, one would secure the value of money with land-values? Seems peculiar. Harry
    Message 1 of 229 , Mar 30, 2013
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      David,

       

      Absent full rent collection, land-values are notoriously volatile.

       

      Yet, one would ‘secure’ the value of money with land-values?

       

      Seems peculiar.

       

      Harry

       

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      From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Reed
      Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 2:21 AM
      To: land cafe
      Subject: RE: [LandCafe] Re: What is monetary reform?

       

       

      @KJ
       I was trying widen out the discussion to consider the long history of banks projected on the value of land as reserve capital. One such was a serious rival to the Bank of England. But I do realise that there is only one subject we are allowed to talk about on this site so will put away my old notes on the subject.( These ,containing highly literate quotes from such as Richard Cantillon, William Petty etc would only have irked you, being written by men in wigs who placed land values at the centre of their political philosophies and facilitated the discussion of how Government IOU's [bank notes?] could be secured on the value of land .) 
       


      To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
      From: kjetil.r.johansen@...
      Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 06:45:59 +0000
      Subject: [LandCafe] Re: What is monetary reform?

       



      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, David Reed <dbcreed@...> wrote:
      >
      > @KJ In 1690 Nicholas Barbon( See Wikipedia) set up a National Land Bank in England which issued" loans in the form of mortgages" against land values.There were a number of these schemes some of them quite disreputable, some famously so.

      Fascinating. And the relevance?

      Kj

      > To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
      > From: kjetil.r.johansen@...
      > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 18:35:20 +0000
      > Subject: [LandCafe] Re: What is monetary reform?
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      > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Scott on the Spot" <ssbaker305@> wrote:
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      > > Mine emphasized George's support for Greenbacking, introduced by his
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      > > part-contemporary, president Lincoln. In fact, he wrote in the Standard
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      > > that out of the nine types of currency in circulation in his time (we
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      > > are currency-deprived today), he though Greenbacks, money issued
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      > > directly by governemnt, was the best. He had no patience for gold
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      > > backed money and presumably would not have thought much of a basket of
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      > > commodities for much the same reasons, either.
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      > > Not to say George always has the last word, but he's always worth
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      > > reading.
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      > Interesting read. I also came across a post of yours in this article here:
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      > http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/03/the-i-o-u-in-the-u-s-dollar.html#more-5001
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      > "But the advantages to having government produce a PUBLIC option for money (USNs) while the private banks produce a PRIVATE one (FRNs) are..."
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      > I'm sure I'm not the first one to realize this, but there is a beautiful symmetry in this if you think about it in conjunction with land value taxation. Government creates IOUs that pay for services, the public pays government back for access to those services, through rental the value of land. The government IOUs can then be viewed as secured on the rental value of land. Private FRN's are made, secured on wealth produced in the private sector, but fundamentally measured against government IOUs and the rental value of land, and their ability to pay for access to land.
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      > If that makes any sense...
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      > I like the MMT analysis, but without including land rents, it seems to me that they are missing out on a piece that can adress, among other things, inflation.
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      > Kj
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    • roy_langston
      ... Very simply: a geoist economy will likely distribute exclusive tenure more widely (i.e., a larger fraction of the population will end up as direct
      Message 229 of 229 , Apr 1, 2013
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        --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pollard" <harrypollard@...> wrote:

        > HP > Let's not pursue this. Ownership in a full rent collection economy is fine and harms no-one.
        >
        > RL: Not so. Once it is conceded that land is owned as the fruits of one's
        > labor are owned, how does one justify taxing one and not the other?
        >
        > In a Georgist economy, how on earth does ownership of land harm anyone, whereas "security of tenure", which you favor, doesn't?

        Very simply: a geoist economy will likely distribute exclusive tenure more widely (i.e., a larger fraction of the population will end up as direct landholders). But if people OWN land in a Georgist economy, they have a very good reason to VOTE AGAINST that Georgist economy, thus voting themselves a privilege of pocketing "their" land's rent.

        It is going to be monumentally difficult to implement a geoist economy. In fact, it may be the most difficult task that will ever be accomplished by human beings. It is therefore crucial that the implementation make it even more difficult to undo than it is to do.

        > You apparently see
        > no practical difference between security of tenure and ownership.

        OTC, because it so resembles leasehold tenure, I don't see how one can honestly call secure, exclusive land tenure in a geoist economy "ownership."

        > Neither the "fruits" nor land should be taxed. However, in a Georgist
        > economy, if your location benefits from the surrounding community, you will
        > pay that advantage back to them. This isn't a tax. It's a fee - you pay for what you get.

        It's true that unlike income tax or other taxes, land rent recovery is a voluntary, market-based, value-for-value transaction. It is the only possible way government can be made self-financing. But all that claiming "it's not a tax" will get is a popular perception of disingenuousness.

        -- Roy Langston
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