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  • David Brooks
    For in depth discussion see: http://www.prosper.org.au/2012/12/11/taxi-licenses-are-economic-rent/ David Brooks -- Freedom, the only end
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 12, 2012
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      For in depth discussion see:   http://www.prosper.org.au/2012/12/11/taxi-licenses-are-economic-rent/

      David Brooks
      --
      Freedom, the only end
    • John
      The streets are commonwealth. They belong to us all. Charging a license for a taxi cab to use our streets to make money is quite right. A carpenter may have a
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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        The streets are commonwealth. They belong to us all. Charging a license for a taxi cab to use our streets to make money is quite right. A carpenter may have a van, which is essential for his work, but the work is not undertaken on the streets, it is on premises off the street. He uses the streets as a transport artery. He pays taxes of some sort in fuel or whatever to run his van on the common streets and rightly no license to practise his craft.

        Amazon hire companies who have fleets of vans to deliver their products. They take a product from Amazon and deliver it to an address. This is exactly the same as function as a taxi cab. One delivers people from one location to another and the other products. None make their money off the road as the carpenter does. Delivery vans should also require a license.
      • k_r_johansen
        ... The taxicab medallions only have value because they are restricted in the amount of medallions given out. I can think of a couple of common-sense reasons
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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          --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > The streets are commonwealth. They belong to us all. Charging a license for a taxi cab to use our streets to make money is quite right. A carpenter may have a van, which is essential for his work, but the work is not undertaken on the streets, it is on premises off the street. He uses the streets as a transport artery. He pays taxes of some sort in fuel or whatever to run his van on the common streets and rightly no license to practise his craft.
          >

          The taxicab medallions only have value because they are restricted in the amount of medallions given out. I can think of a couple of common-sense reasons to issue licenses to taxi-cabs; making sure they are not serial rapists, seeing to it they are insured for that kind of driving. I can't think of a reason to limit the amount of taxi-cabs through licenses though, or making them pay any more for their usage of their road. And your comparison with the carpenter doesn't compute. The taxi-cab driver also pays fuel taxes. If there are congestion-charges, tolls etc., he pays them too. The carpenter may also have opted to not have any office besides his home, and does most of his business dealings on the road on the phone. In fact a whole host of businesses would fall apart if it wasn't for the access to a road infrastructure, the taxi-cab isn't special in that sense. Now if taxi-cabs get preferrential treatment of any sort, access to special lanes, special parking spots etc., now that can be charged for.

          > Amazon hire companies who have fleets of vans to deliver their products. They take a product from Amazon and deliver it to an address. This is exactly the same as function as a taxi cab. One delivers people from one location to another and the other products. None make their money off the road as the carpenter does. Delivery vans should also require a license.
          >

          You are trying to think about methods we can tax Amazon. The question is whether we should actively create sources of rent by limiting markets, in order to fullfill our wishes about who should and should not be taxed. Most likely this will be a tax paid by it's consumers, through limiting competition and raising prices. Why can't we just let consumers get the surplus awarded to them through competition, and tax it when it reaches land instead?

          Kj
        • Harry Pollard
          Krj, Well said! In the RAF we had a saying If it moves, salute it. If it doesn t move, paint it I think the modern version is if it moves or not, tax it. A
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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            Krj,

            Well said!

            In the RAF we had a saying "If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move, paint it

            I think the modern version is if it moves or not, tax it.

            A lot of this discussion complains that someone or other isn't paying taxes as if the object is to tax. That's the problem in modern economics - or perhaps politics - they are continually looking around for something to tax. There is little connection between the grabbing of money and providing a service in return. It is revenue that is the object.

            The least important economic part of collecting Rent is to gain revenue. The most important economic part is to enjoy the liberty and justice that collection provides.

            As you know, I made the point some time ago that "Better to collect rent and throw it in the sea than not collect it at all."

            With regard to Marx, in Volume III of Capital which may have been finished by Engels - I've forgotten - you'll find some interesting things.

            You'll find that surplus value disappears into Rent (I think he said "inevitably" but I'm not plunging back into that morass).

            So, having spent all that space in two volumes on surplus value, he admits it becomes rent.

            Further, he pointed out that the Industrial Revolution was funded by the Rents of the landholders - not by capitalists but by landholders.

            People rarely read past Volume I. I suspect that most Communists read a condensed version of Volume I and little else. As I recall, Volume II doesn't add much, but Volume III contains some nuggets.

            Perhaps someone should have another look at Volume III but I wouldn't wish the task on anyone.

            Harry

            ********************
            The Alumni Group 
            The Henry George School
            of Los Angeles
            Tujunga   CA   90243
            (818) 352-4141
            ********************



            On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 5:06 AM, k_r_johansen <kjetil.r.johansen@...> wrote:
             

            --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > The streets are commonwealth. They belong to us all. Charging a license for a taxi cab to use our streets to make money is quite right. A carpenter may have a van, which is essential for his work, but the work is not undertaken on the streets, it is on premises off the street. He uses the streets as a transport artery. He pays taxes of some sort in fuel or whatever to run his van on the common streets and rightly no license to practise his craft.
            >

            The taxicab medallions only have value because they are restricted in the amount of medallions given out. I can think of a couple of common-sense reasons to issue licenses to taxi-cabs; making sure they are not serial rapists, seeing to it they are insured for that kind of driving. I can't think of a reason to limit the amount of taxi-cabs through licenses though, or making them pay any more for their usage of their road. And your comparison with the carpenter doesn't compute. The taxi-cab driver also pays fuel taxes. If there are congestion-charges, tolls etc., he pays them too. The carpenter may also have opted to not have any office besides his home, and does most of his business dealings on the road on the phone. In fact a whole host of businesses would fall apart if it wasn't for the access to a road infrastructure, the taxi-cab isn't special in that sense. Now if taxi-cabs get preferrential treatment of any sort, access to special lanes, special parking spots etc., now that can be charged for.

            > Amazon hire companies who have fleets of vans to deliver their products. They take a product from Amazon and deliver it to an address. This is exactly the same as function as a taxi cab. One delivers people from one location to another and the other products. None make their money off the road as the carpenter does. Delivery vans should also require a license.
            >

            You are trying to think about methods we can tax Amazon. The question is whether we should actively create sources of rent by limiting markets, in order to fullfill our wishes about who should and should not be taxed. Most likely this will be a tax paid by it's consumers, through limiting competition and raising prices. Why can't we just let consumers get the surplus awarded to them through competition, and tax it when it reaches land instead?

            Kj


          • k_r_johansen
            ... Yes, this is a strange state of affairs. Throughout western history the taxman has been the villain in virtually every piece of litterature and folk-tale.
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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              --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, Harry Pollard <harrypollard0@...> wrote:
              >
              > Krj,
              >
              > Well said!
              >
              > In the RAF we had a saying "If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move,
              > paint it
              >
              > I think the modern version is if it moves or not, tax it.
              >
              > A lot of this discussion complains that someone or other isn't paying taxes
              > as if the object is to tax. That's the problem in modern economics - or
              > perhaps politics - they are continually looking around for something to
              > tax. There is little connection between the grabbing of money and providing
              > a service in return. It is revenue that is the object.

              Yes, this is a strange state of affairs. Throughout western history the taxman has been the villain in virtually every piece of litterature and folk-tale. Suddenly by the turn of the 21th century, the narrative has changed entirely to the point where you have thousands of people marching the streets in support of the taxman, demanding that anyone escaping him be tracked down and strung up. I guess that's what happens when you develop a strong taste for public money.

              Kj
            • John
              ... The carpenter does not use the streets to make a living. He uses them like all of us, to get from one point another. Very different to a taxi cab who use
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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                --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "k_r_johansen" <kjetil.r.johansen@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@> wrote:

                >
                > The taxicab medallions only have value
                > because they are restricted in the amount
                > of medallions given out.

                > And your comparison with the carpenter doesn't compute.

                The carpenter does not use the streets to make a living. He uses them like all of us, to get from one point another. Very different to a taxi cab who use the streets continually. All his business is on the streets.

                > the taxi-cab isn't special in that sense.
                > Now if taxi-cabs get preferential treatment
                > of any sort, access to special lanes, special
                > parking spots etc., now that can be charged for.

                That is in the license fee.

                > > Amazon hire companies who have fleets of vans
                > > to deliver their products. They take a product
                > > from Amazon and deliver it to an address.
                > > This is exactly the same as function as a
                > > taxi cab. One delivers people from one
                > > location to another and the other products.
                > > None make their money off the road as the
                > > carpenter does. Delivery vans should also
                > > require a license.
                >
                > You are trying to think about methods we can tax Amazon.

                Nope. I used Amazon as an example. A point is that delivery vans do the same function as taxi cab yet do not pay a license. Those who use commonwealth, e.g., the streets, must pay for it, just as an oil compnay pays to extract oil, a common resource. Those who make from commonly created wealth must also pay for it - LVT does most of that.

                > Why can't we just let consumers get the
                > surplus awarded to them through competition,
                > and tax it when it reaches land instead?

                Ah the Single Tax, the Henry George idea. So all will come out in the wash.
              • k_r_johansen
                ... So what should the taxi pay? I mean in addition to fuel duty, tolls, CC, etc. Based on what measure? ... When an oil-company extracts oil from a field,
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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                  --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The carpenter does not use the streets to make a living. He uses them like all of us, to get from one point another. Very different to a taxi cab who use the streets continually. All his business is on the streets.
                  >

                  So what should the taxi pay? I mean in addition to fuel duty, tolls, CC, etc. Based on what measure?

                  > Nope. I used Amazon as an example. A point is that delivery vans do the same function as taxi cab yet do not pay a license. Those who use commonwealth, e.g., the streets, must pay for it, just as an oil compnay pays to extract oil, a common resource. Those who make from commonly created wealth must also pay for it - LVT does most of that.
                  >

                  When an oil-company extracts oil from a field, they have an exclusive right to do that. When your house occupies a certain space, noone can occupy that same space. When you drive a taxi, you don't stop anyone else from driving a taxi, there is no privilege awarded to them, neither to delivery vans. Sure, everyone who uses common space must pay for it somehow, taxis as well, but why should taxis pay more? What's the percentage of business that has to be done on the road before one is eligible for such a tax?

                  > Ah the Single Tax, the Henry George idea. So all will come out in the wash.<

                  What does this mean exactly?

                  Kj
                • roy_langston
                  ... So what? He is not causing as much road wear as heavy trucks, and is not depriving others of access to the streets (other than during times of congestion,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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                    --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:

                    > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "k_r_johansen" <kjetil.r.johansen@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > The taxicab medallions only have value
                    > > because they are restricted in the amount
                    > > of medallions given out.
                    >
                    > > And your comparison with the carpenter doesn't compute.
                    >
                    > The carpenter does not use the streets to make a living. He uses them like all of us, to get from one point another. Very different to a taxi cab who use the streets continually. All his business is on the streets.

                    So what? He is not causing as much road wear as heavy trucks, and is not depriving others of access to the streets (other than during times of congestion, which can and should be charged for independently, whether or not the vehicle is a taxi cab).

                    > > the taxi-cab isn't special in that sense.
                    > > Now if taxi-cabs get preferential treatment
                    > > of any sort, access to special lanes, special
                    > > parking spots etc., now that can be charged for.
                    >
                    > That is in the license fee.

                    That makes sense, as long as the license fee reflects the market value of the taxis' privilege, and is not just a way to create an artificial shortage of taxis.

                    > Those who use commonwealth, e.g., the streets, must pay for it, just as an oil compnay pays to extract oil, a common resource. Those who make from commonly created wealth must also pay for it - LVT does most of that.

                    Only when the common resource is scarce enough to be allocated through rent recovery. Streets and roads normally aren't.

                    -- Roy Langston
                  • Harry Pollard
                    Think in terms not of taxing but of charging, John. We pay the same amount to keep the roads in good shape for our day to day activities which are about the
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 14, 2012
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                      Think in terms not of taxing but of charging, John.

                      We pay the same amount to keep the roads in good shape for our day to day activities which are about the same for all of us. However, if more than an approximately equal use is being made of the roads - perhaps the behemoths that carry our goods and tend to chew up the asphalt - then an additional charge seems appropriate. Maybe it is most easily calculated and charged as an addition on every litre of petrol they use. This would also handle the taxis too as they are constantly using petrol. But, I don't like the use of the term taxing which carries the connotation of coercion.

                      The same applies in other areas such as pollution. We all have an equal right to the air. If you want more than an equal right by filling the air with guck, then you will have to compensate the rest of us.

                      Some time ago, Chemical Engineering had a piece on installing meters on the outflows into rivers from factories. As I recall they measured the salinity and other things and charged accordingly. Before long, they reported, the effluent going into the river was cleaner than the river.
                       
                      You'll note that rent collection is actually a charge. You pay for what you get. (Although some posts treat it as a tax that rises and falls according to some need or the other - ugh!)

                      You'll also note I translated from American gallons of gas to British litres of petrol thereby proving I'm multilingual.

                      Harry

                      ********************
                      The Alumni Group 
                      The Henry George School
                      of Los Angeles
                      Tujunga   CA   90243
                      (818) 352-4141
                      ********************



                      On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 1:32 AM, John <burns-john@...> wrote:
                       


                      The streets are commonwealth. They belong to us all. Charging a license for a taxi cab to use our streets to make money is quite right. A carpenter may have a van, which is essential for his work, but the work is not undertaken on the streets, it is on premises off the street. He uses the streets as a transport artery. He pays taxes of some sort in fuel or whatever to run his van on the common streets and rightly no license to practise his craft.

                      Amazon hire companies who have fleets of vans to deliver their products. They take a product from Amazon and deliver it to an address. This is exactly the same as function as a taxi cab. One delivers people from one location to another and the other products. None make their money off the road as the carpenter does. Delivery vans should also require a license.


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