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Re: The Revival of Retsforbundet

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  • roy_langston
    Here are a few suggested talking points. ... Land value measures the subsidy to the landowner. Increasing land value indicates increasing subsidy. That s
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 1, 2012
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      Here are a few suggested talking points.

      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, Morten Blaabjerg <mortenblaabjerg@...> wrote:

      > - economic policy (of course, LVT as measure to achieve a sustainable economy)

      "Land value measures the subsidy to the landowner. Increasing land value indicates increasing subsidy. That's not sustainable. We've seen the proof in Japan's land value boom of the 1980s, which gave them a 20-year recession. We saw it in the American land bubble of the 2000s that forced their government into debt to rescue the rich bankers, and many other examples in Ireland, Spain, Iceland, the UK, and on and on. Subsidizing landowners is like economic drug addiction: it feels great at first, but then you need more and more of it just to avoid feeling awful. The current government's policy of addiction to subsidies for landowners is not sustainable."

      > - the environment (sustainable way of life)

      "It starts with understanding that people are all equal in their rights to live on earth, and to access and enjoy what nature provided equally to all. So the people who appropriate and use up more than their fair share of nature's gifts should pay just compensation to the community of those they are depriving of their fair share."

      > - immigration policies (sustainable outlook on life - working globally to
      > solve global inequalities, while we receive those who do come to our doors as refugees gracefully and respectfully), and

      "We can best help people in poorer countries by example: showing them how to create free, just, prosperous, and sustainable economies in their own countries. We need to do it here first, to show them how it is done, and how they can do it, too."

      > - an anti-EU and pro-globalism stance (a sustainable global community)

      "The EU imposes unsustainable policies on us like the banksters' euro, which Greece, Spain and the rest have proved is not a sustainable money system because it is based on feeding the banks' addiction to lending for land speculation."

      > The above policy areas by no means reflect all of our policies but have
      > mainly been picked as areas where we are capable of positioning ourselves
      > in relation to the existing parties. We will continue to refine and choose
      > the vacant standpoints so that we can further position ourselves on
      > important areas in the time ahead, picking them on the grounds, that should
      > be able to expose our core ideas (LVT, specifically) from different
      > perspectives.

      I hope the above may be of help. If you want more suggestions, I'll see what I can do.

      -- Roy Langston
    • John
      ... I do not think the Euro, no more than the US dollar, has anything to do with that. The problem with the Euro is that it may be overvalued for some
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 2, 2012
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        --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@...> wrote:


        > > - an anti-EU and pro-globalism stance
        > > (a sustainable global community)
        >
        > "The EU imposes unsustainable policies
        > on us like the banksters' euro, which
        > Greece, Spain and the rest have proved
        > is not a sustainable money system because
        > it is based on feeding the banks' addiction
        > to lending for land speculation."

        I do not think the Euro, no more than the US dollar, has anything to do with that.

        The problem with the Euro is that it may be overvalued for some countries and undervalued for others. That could apply to the US dollar. The southern states are getting into biomass fuel, using
        sustainably-sourced renewable biofuel wood pellets and exporting it to Europe. Tibury Power station near London is using the pellets and few other changing over from coal. Germany and Holland use the pellets. Devaluing the dollar may mean they do greater business, but it stays high because of commerce/industry elsewhere in the USA. The Euro is just another currency.

        We are in the EU and it worked well until the CC. Many are anti-EU because of the crisis and seeing that they are bailing out the PIIGS - some of the PIIGS were just plain fianacially irresponsible.

        In the UK we have the anti EU UKip party. IMO, they tend to get votes from older people who are bigots, racists or just confused. The UK is in the EU but not in he Euro zone. The pound is still used. Currently, maybe the best of both worlds. The EU brings political stability - maybe we now have generations that did not see the needless carnage of WW2 or feel the after effects of austerity. Being anti-EU is not a positive measure. Most people view that it is here and it is not going away and getting out is financial suicide.

        Promoting Genomics to Brussels maybe a good ploy - economic stability resulting in political stability, etc.
      • John
        ... other taxes. ... confiscate privately created value and give it to landowners in return for nothing, while LVT recovers publicly created value for
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 2, 2012
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          --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" burns-john@ wrote:

          > > The powerful Danish media:
          > > 
          > > * Produced propaganda that LVT was 
          > > just another tax, like all other taxes.

          > It is essential to pound home the fact that all other
          >  taxes confiscate privately created value and give it 
          > to landowners in return for nothing, while LVT recovers 
          > publicly created value for public purposes and benefit, 
          > leaving privately created value in its producers' hands 
          > where it rightly belongs.
          Also to emphasise that Income Tax penalizes the productive and LVT promotes enterprise and productivity.  Also it is how it is put across.   Some Marxist made it look like war on the wealthy.  You do not want to make it look like its is war on landowners. Landowners benefit as well. That must be emphasised.

          That is why Geonomics is far better and a better word - use Land Value Tax as little as possible.  Geonomics is NOT a single tax, so no one can be accused of victimizing one section - landowners.  Geonomics uses commonwealth in land and resources and collectively created economic growth to fund society - while promoting productivity by eliminating harmful Income and Sales taxes.
           
          That is very "sustainable".  

          Another point is that economic stability is promoted and virtually ensured within the nation.  No boom & busts.  The effect of Credit Crunch are still with us, look at Greece and Spain (the PIIGS), this is easier to sell.  OK, if a world-wide crash comes a country like Denmark will slide in with them, but the effect will be less and recovery easier and less painful.

          Also it has to emphasised that the whole thing is just a tax shift. The system stays the same. Business behaviour stays the same. 
          > > * They put it across that it is unjust that only 
          > > landowners should pay all the taxes of the nation.

          > It is essential to pound home the fact that landowners 
          > GET all the taxes of the nation, and that land's value 
          > simply measures how much of other people's taxes 
          > its owner can expect to pocket in return for nothing.
          It is how that is put across to millions of people who currently just do not see it that way and regard land as a capital item like a car or washing machine.  It is not worth putting across economic theories that must people will have difficulty grasping.
          > > * They emphasized that the poor having no income, 
          > > or a small income, would not benefit of the reduction 
          > > of income taxes.

          > It is essential to advocate not just LVT but LVT+UIE, to 
          restore the people's equal rights to liberty and ensure 
          > that all have free, secure access to economic opportunity. 
          > The UIE enables a massive reduction of government spending 
          > on poverty relief, pensions, etc. as well as combining a more 
          > competitive wage structure with a higher real standard of living.

          Most of that will go over their heads. Most are only interested in what is in it for them. Currently selling stability and eco is worth it.
        • roy_langston
          ... The dollar and sterling are also debt money based on lending for land speculation and thus not sustainable. As we have seen. ... Not at all. It is a
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 2, 2012
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            --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:

            > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@> wrote:
            >
            > > > - an anti-EU and pro-globalism stance
            > > > (a sustainable global community)
            > >
            > > "The EU imposes unsustainable policies
            > > on us like the banksters' euro, which
            > > Greece, Spain and the rest have proved
            > > is not a sustainable money system because
            > > it is based on feeding the banks' addiction
            > > to lending for land speculation."
            >
            > I do not think the Euro, no more than the US dollar, has anything to do with that.

            The dollar and sterling are also debt money based on lending for land speculation and thus not sustainable. As we have seen.

            > The Euro is just another currency.

            Not at all. It is a transnational debt money that can't be managed using national fiscal levers the way the dollar and sterling can.

            > We are in the EU and it worked well until the CC.

            I.e., NOT SUSTAINABLY.

            > Many are anti-EU because of the crisis and seeing that they are bailing out the PIIGS - some of the PIIGS were just plain fianacially irresponsible.

            They all were, because they all subsidized idle landowning.

            > Being anti-EU is not a positive measure. Most people view that it is here and it is not going away and getting out is financial suicide.

            Being anti-EU is a positive measure because the EU requires member nations to adopt unjust and harmful policies like VAT.

            > Promoting Genomics to Brussels maybe a good ploy - economic stability resulting in political stability, etc.

            That would more effectively be done by a member government already successfully thriving under geonomic policies, and very loudly and publicly asking Brussels why EU members are required to follow stupid, unjust, harmful and evil policies.

            -- Roy Langston
          • roy_langston
            ... At some point, landowners need to understand that in the long term it is LVT or the abyss. The GFC was a warning, just as Japan s land crash of 1990 was a
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 2, 2012
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              --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:

              > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > It is essential to pound home the fact that all other> taxes
              > confiscate privately created value and give it > to landowners in return
              > for nothing, while LVT recovers > publicly created value for public
              > purposes and benefit, > leaving privately created value in its
              > producers' hands > where it rightly belongs.
              >
              > Also to emphasise that
              > Income Tax penalizes the productive and LVT promotes enterprise and
              > productivity. Also it is how it is put across. Some Marxist made it
              > look like war on the wealthy. You do not want to make it look like its is war on landowners.

              At some point, landowners need to understand that in the long term it is LVT or the abyss. The GFC was a warning, just as Japan's land crash of 1990 was a warning.

              > Landowners benefit as well.

              No, landowners qua landowners are the only losers.

              > That must be emphasised.

              We should be honest.

              > That is why Geonomics is far better and a better word - use Land Value Tax as little as possible.

              Something like "common value recovery."

              > Geonomics is NOT a single tax, so no one can be accused of victimizing one section - landowners.

              It is landowners who are victimizing everyone else. We must not shrink from identifying that fact.

              > Also it has to emphasised that the whole thing is just a tax shift. The system stays the same. Business behaviour stays the same.

              Business behavior does not stay the same. It changes from lobbying, rent seeking and taking to investing, competing and producing.

              > > It is essential to pound home the fact that landowners > GET all the
              > taxes of the nation, and that land's value > simply measures how much of
              > other people's taxes > its owner can expect to pocket in return for
              > nothing.
              >
              > It is how that is put across to millions of people who currently
              > just do not see it that way and regard land as a capital item like a car
              > or washing machine. It is not worth putting across economic theories that must people will have difficulty grasping.

              It is ESSENTIAL to inform people of the economic truth that will set them free. ESSENTIAL.

              > > > * They emphasized
              > that the poor having no income, > > or a small income, would not benefit
              > of the reduction > > of income taxes.
              > >
              > > It is essential to advocate not just LVT but LVT+UIE, to > restore the
              > people's equal rights to liberty and ensure > that all have free, secure
              > access to economic opportunity. > The UIE enables a massive reduction of
              > government spending > on poverty relief, pensions, etc. as well as
              > combining a more > competitive wage structure with a higher real
              > standard of living.
              >
              > Most of that will go over their heads.

              You just have to find ways of saying it that they will feel in their gut. "Your real disposable income will double or triple. You will be able to buy a house without going into debt slavery for decades. Your family will be able to afford the kind of comforts you currently have to buy for landowners and bankers."

              > Most are only interested in what
              > is in it for them. Currently selling stability and eco is worth it.

              Liberty, justice and prosperity are in it for them. Next to those, stability and eco seem like pretty weak beer to me.

              -- Roy Langston
            • John
              ... The money supply is based on debt. The more debt the more money is printed . ... I can be managed but not as effectively as the dollar or Stirling. ...
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 2, 2012
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                --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@> wrote:
                >
                > > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@> wrote:
                > >
                > > > > - an anti-EU and pro-globalism stance
                > > > > (a sustainable global community)
                > > >
                > > > "The EU imposes unsustainable policies
                > > > on us like the banksters' euro, which
                > > > Greece, Spain and the rest have proved
                > > > is not a sustainable money system because
                > > > it is based on feeding the banks' addiction
                > > > to lending for land speculation."
                > >
                > > I do not think the Euro, no more than the US
                > > dollar, has anything to do with that.
                >
                > The dollar and sterling are also debt money
                > based on lending for land speculation and
                > thus not sustainable. As we have seen.

                The money supply is based on debt. The more debt the more money is "printed".

                > > The Euro is just another currency.
                >
                > Not at all. It is a transnational debt
                > money that can't be managed using national
                > fiscal levers the way the dollar and
                > sterling can.

                I can be managed but not as effectively as the dollar or Stirling.

                > > We are in the EU and it worked well until the CC.
                >
                > I.e., NOT SUSTAINABLY.

                The EU is sustainable. That is argument could be placed at the United States over 100 years ago.

                > > Many are anti-EU because of the
                > > crisis and seeing that they are
                > > bailing out the PIIGS - some of
                > > the PIIGS were just plain fianacially
                > > irresponsible.
                >
                > They all were, because they all subsidized idle landowning.
                >
                > > Being anti-EU is not a positive
                > > measure. Most people view that it is
                > > here and it is not going away and
                > > getting out is financial suicide.
                >
                > Being anti-EU is a positive measure
                > because the EU requires member nations
                > to adopt unjust and harmful policies like VAT.

                That can always be changed and should be. A country can ignore it and see what happens.

                > > Promoting Genomics to Brussels
                > > maybe a good ploy - economic stability
                > > resulting in political stability, etc.
                >
                > That would more effectively be done by
                > a member government already successfully
                > thriving under geonomic policies,

                It could be. But the EU is into stability.
              • Harry Pollard
                John, When a country is doing badly, its money loses value as others are not so keen to deal with it. This is one of the market reactions that are so useful to
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 6, 2012
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                  John,

                  When a country is doing badly, its money loses value as others are not so keen to deal with it. This is one of the market reactions that are so useful to international trade.

                  The Euro doesn't allow a separate country in Europe to enjoy (or suffer) this reaction. So, Greece's money keeps value even as the economy is going into the drink. That's a major problem with the Euro.

                  I've just realised. I don't know who in Europe produces and distributes the Euro.

                  Where do Euros come from?

                  Harry 

                  ********************
                  The Alumni Group 
                  The Henry George School
                  of Los Angeles
                  Tujunga   CA   90243
                  (818) 352-4141
                  ********************



                  On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 3:34 AM, John <burns-john@...> wrote:
                   



                  --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@...> wrote:

                  > > - an anti-EU and pro-globalism stance
                  > > (a sustainable global community)
                  >
                  > "The EU imposes unsustainable policies
                  > on us like the banksters' euro, which
                  > Greece, Spain and the rest have proved
                  > is not a sustainable money system because
                  > it is based on feeding the banks' addiction
                  > to lending for land speculation."

                  I do not think the Euro, no more than the US dollar, has anything to do with that.

                  The problem with the Euro is that it may be overvalued for some countries and undervalued for others. That could apply to the US dollar. The southern states are getting into biomass fuel, using
                  sustainably-sourced renewable biofuel wood pellets and exporting it to Europe. Tibury Power station near London is using the pellets and few other changing over from coal. Germany and Holland use the pellets. Devaluing the dollar may mean they do greater business, but it stays high because of commerce/industry elsewhere in the USA. The Euro is just another currency.

                  We are in the EU and it worked well until the CC. Many are anti-EU because of the crisis and seeing that they are bailing out the PIIGS - some of the PIIGS were just plain fianacially irresponsible.

                  In the UK we have the anti EU UKip party. IMO, they tend to get votes from older people who are bigots, racists or just confused. The UK is in the EU but not in he Euro zone. The pound is still used. Currently, maybe the best of both worlds. The EU brings political stability - maybe we now have generations that did not see the needless carnage of WW2 or feel the after effects of austerity. Being anti-EU is not a positive measure. Most people view that it is here and it is not going away and getting out is financial suicide.

                  Promoting Genomics to Brussels maybe a good ploy - economic stability resulting in political stability, etc.


                • John
                  ... Harry, the same can be said for inside a country. The UK government is obsessed with maintaining London as a world-class city and world financial centre.
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 6, 2012
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                    --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, Harry Pollard <harrypollard0@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > John,
                    >
                    > When a country is doing badly, its money loses value as others are not so
                    > keen to deal with it. This is one of the market reactions that are so
                    > useful to international trade.
                    >
                    > The Euro doesn't allow a separate country in Europe to enjoy (or suffer)
                    > this reaction. So, Greece's money keeps value even as the economy is going
                    > into the drink. That's a major problem with the Euro.
                    >
                    > I've just realised. I don't know who in Europe produces and distributes the
                    > Euro.
                    >

                    Harry, the same can be said for inside a country. The UK government is obsessed with maintaining London as a world-class city and world financial centre. Currency value and interest rates are geared to what is beneficial to London, which may mean it acts against the much poorer North East of England.
                  • John
                    ... Roy here is a 60 min BBC doc, last April or May, on the collapse of the euro. The Great Euro Crash - 2012
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 9, 2012
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                      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@> wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > > - an anti-EU and pro-globalism stance
                      > > > > (a sustainable global community)
                      > > >
                      > > > "The EU imposes unsustainable policies
                      > > > on us like the banksters' euro, which
                      > > > Greece, Spain and the rest have proved
                      > > > is not a sustainable money system because
                      > > > it is based on feeding the banks' addiction
                      > > > to lending for land speculation."
                      > >
                      > > I do not think the Euro, no more than the US dollar, has anything to do with that.
                      >
                      > The dollar and sterling are also debt
                      > money based on lending for land
                      > speculation and thus not sustainable. As we have seen.
                      >
                      > > The Euro is just another currency.
                      >
                      > Not at all. It is a transnational
                      > debt money that can't be managed using
                      > national fiscal levers the way the dollar and sterling can.
                      >

                      Roy here is a 60 min BBC doc, last April or May, on the collapse of the euro.

                      The Great Euro Crash - 2012
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyNekAJ6rA8&feature=g-high-rec

                      Using land as collateral was at the core which they seem to flit over. Greece told lies to get into the euro. The Brits wisely kept out. The idea behind the euro was fine. Not enough scrutiny of entry and control was around.

                      A poor agricultural country needs to gets its economy right before joining the likes of Germany and France.
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