Re: [LandCafe] Re: FT
- W: If I can put words in his mouth for a second, he would say that just as there's a difference between the call an umpire makes and whether the runner was "really out"--"the societal undertakings" can also be wrong, and will be if they don't ferret out the REAL natural rights.
Jdk: yes. But but not quite fair the way you reduce my mechanism of ferreting out the real natural rights to intuition/revelation. We deduce human rights from our understanding of what it means to be human fully, ie. unencumbered by whatever it is that might prevent us from reaching our full human potential. One way we deduce the nature of humanity is science, but also the errors and successes of history, by ideas of justice and compassion, by debating freely and openly and democratically the writing of laws. Intuition might also help us, think about how Penrose talks about discovering mathematical truths - platonic insight into noumena. You can reject "revelation" but it means something very different in my tradition than in the tradition of Mormons, Muslims, and Protestants, and generally Gnostics. It's not private knowledge, rather it is subject to a community of belief and history. Nonetheless, it supports reason it is not a substitute, which means that even you as professed to be outside and against the church can still by reason, science, and even intuitive reliance upon you conscious can get to natural rights or at least as close as anyone.
The whole idea is that natural rights are not bound by custom, laws and culture. If the south had won the war, slavery would still be wrong. If the whole world succumbs to so epidemic which North Korea survives because of its isolation, nk ideas about natural rights do not become the natural rights, which is what Roy's ridiculous theory suggests.
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On Nov 17, 2012, at 5:28 PM, "walto" <calhorn@...> wrote:
> If I can put words in his mouth for a second, he would say that just as there's a difference between the call an umpire makes and whether the runner was "really out"--"the societal undertakings" can also be wrong, and will be if they don't ferret out the REAL natural rights.
- JDK,Those who survive are presumably the fittest to survive for the "fittest" just describes those who have survived.With regard to your last sentence – Stalin got there first.Harry
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On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 9:54 AM, JDKromkowski <jdkromkowski@...> wrote:Evolution is not really: the survival of the "fittest" It is just survival of that which survives. Evolution is a way of describing the process of how variation within a population will lead to variation eventually of species. There are plenty of genes along for the ride which are not particularly "the fittest".Yes the survival of the two apostolic lungs of Christianity (Catholics and the Eastern church) despite its massive weakness and in fact embracement of weakness of the god who becomes human and is rejected and put to death is a puzzle and crazy on its face. It drove Nietzsche crazy (well that and syphillus drove him crazy). It also drove the communists crazy too. Massive defense? How many tanks does the church have?Jdk
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On Nov 16, 2012, at 11:26 PM, "mattbieker" <agrarian.justice@...> wrote:
--- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, John David Kromkowski <jdkromkowski@...> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 12:01 PM, mattbieker <agrarian.justice@...
> > wrote:
> > The catholic church has one real function: serving the clergy. When it
> > was able to, it dominated a large swath of the earth in an imperial form.
> > It can't now, so it fills out whatever niches it can; but the main thing is
> > ensuring that members of clergy don't have to go and get real jobs.
> Thanks for sharing this one too. I'm getting better picture of Land Cafe.
> It really is best if we get it all out in the open. It's for the same
> reason I won't hide my background.
> This isn't a cocktail party, where we need to avoid the topic for
> charitable purposes - or at least for the purposes of not interfering with
> mutual love of beer or gin or your choice. I'd still have a beer in
> Baltimore (once), with any of you clowns.
*shrugs* Whatever one thinks of Roy's evolutionary basis for morals, I think there's fairly clearly a pseudo-evolutionary basis for ideas and institutions. Dawkins made this case in his "The Selfish Gene." Basically, ideas are duplicated, with variation, in the minds of individuals; from there, it's survival of the fittest. The conceptual equivalent to a gene being a "meme." Why do religious institutions survive despite being a load of crap that generally act as a drain on society? They're very advanced critters in the world of memes; they've evolved a whole host of defenses to offset their massive weaknesses, such as the notion that it's not polite or even acceptable to question a man's faith, or that without beliefs in these memes, we have no basis for social behavior.
Catholicism isn't necessarily the most egregious case of this sort of memetic virus (that has to go to Scientology, don't you think?), but that's what it is, and all the bottom line of them all is the same: enrichment (both financial as well as emotional) of clergy. Still and all, its senseless and generally ad-hoc opposition to contraception, even in the light of AIDS epidemics, is horrible enough in and of itself to give me a fairly thoroughgoing distaste for it in particular, and I'd pretty much rather not see any meme I deem useful or good to be mixed up with it.
Personally, I think one of the best parts of online discussion is that there's less tendency to hold back one's beliefs; many lament this, saying that the internet just makes everyone rude because they don't fear social repercussions, but I believe there's inherent value there, as it allows for a more rapid evolution of memes. The noise and nastiness comes with the territory, and I think people will just eventually find a new normal.
One common Christian meme is certainly right though: hate the sin, and not the sinner. I agree, I'd have a beer with any of you. It's worth making a conscious effort not to take attacks against our beliefs too personally, because it turns out everyone tends to be wrong quite often.