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Re: How do we get Turkeys to vote for Xmas/Thanksgiving?Also Social Credit in Canada

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  • roy_langston
    ... No, it s a pragmatic argument by analogy: tax? check; individual exemption from tax? check; exemption universal, including babies ? check. I haven t
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 2, 2012
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      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "walto" <calhorn@...> wrote:

      > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "roy_langston" <roy_langston@> wrote:
      > >
      > > As you know, I made no such claim. I simply pointed out that the existing system of universal individual income tax exemptions is prima facie proof that even if the "arguments" so far offered against the U in the UIE from LVT had any merit (they don't), the universality of individual income tax exemptions proves there are strong, practical, economic and political reasons for universality.
      >
      > That, my friend, is an argument from (a particularly bad) authority

      No, it's a pragmatic argument by analogy: tax? check; individual exemption from tax? check; exemption universal, including "babies"? check. I haven't identified or invoked any authority.

      > --coming from one who would like to blow up the current tax code.

      But who, unlike some, is willing to learn from it.

      > "Provides some evidence for" only means "proves" in Langstonese.

      Well, it's proof compared to not having provided ANY evidence.

      -- Roy Langston
    • David Reed
      @krjWe have gone round the houses with these figures before see this September example. Dave W is interested in the Mansion Tax style exemption and so needs
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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        @krj
        We have gone round the houses with these figures before see this September example.
        Dave W is interested in the Mansion Tax style exemption and so needs the correct figures. So back of an envelope style estimates  will not suffice. I gave the following (back in Sept) from your friend and mine (also Dave W's) Mark Wadsworth, fag packet maestro supreme:Total UK property values (ie land and buildings)=£6,ooo billions made up of housing= £5,000 billion,commercial= £750 billion,farmland= £250 billion.(All land and buildings except, obviously, farmland).These look alright to me (MW is not going to get his figures wrong) and anyway since the VoA does n't have any contrary figures we may as well use our own.Dave W does not seem prepared to use them though. 

        To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
        From: davewetzel42@...
        Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:03:13 +0100
        Subject: [LandCafe] How do we get Turkeys to vote for Xmas/Thanksgiving?

         

        I'm just back from Dublin asvocating LVT.
         
        The other Saturday I was speaking on LVT to the UK's "Labour Housing Group" who agreed to renew their support for LVT.
        They are a small group but very influential in Labour circles with Nicky Gavron (the first Deputy Mayor of London) actually present. They discussed with me the problem of getting voters liable to pay LVT on their homes to vote for LVT to replace Council Tax and/or other taxes.
         (or "How do we get Turkeys to vote for Xmas/Thanksgiving"?
        We discussed homestead allowance and rollover but Nicky and some others seemed not to be convinced that Labour politicians will suppport a new (even if replacement) tax on homes.
        Following from this what if Labour committed to introduced LVT on ALL land - except for occupied homes worth less than £2m - and currently paying Council Tax (who would continue to pay Council Tax instead of LVT). [Council Tax is the UK's domestic residentail property tax on occupiers].
        Occupied homes less than £2m in value and their gardens probably represent less than 5% of the total UK land area. So full LVT would be levied on the remaining 95% including all empty homes, the most expensive houses, house-builders' land banks, all land used for business and commerce, all farmland, all brownfield sites in towns and cities, all windfarms, the spectrum and airport landing slots etc.
        I recognise that this approach would not have the same beneficial effects as full LVT on all land including occupied residential properties but would it be an approach worth supporting to introduce LVT to the UK?


      • k_r_johansen
        Then I d say what stands in the way of getting a picture of current values in the residential market is the current refusal to do new CT-valuations,
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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          Then I'd say what stands in the way of getting a picture of current values in the residential market is the current refusal to do new CT-valuations, unfortunately (supposedly a 250m £ revaluation cost, or around one percent of the annual CT-take, is the barrier trotted around by opponents). Someone in the VOA ought to be able to give up the 1993-figures though, to give an estimate on proportion of housing likely to be in the subgroup he wants.

          Kj

          --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, David Reed <dbcreed@...> wrote:
          >
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          > @krjWe have gone round the houses with these figures before see this September example.
          > Dave W is interested in the Mansion Tax style exemption and so needs the correct figures. So back of an envelope style estimates will not suffice. I gave the following (back in Sept) from your friend and mine (also Dave W's) Mark Wadsworth, fag packet maestro supreme:Total UK property values (ie land and buildings)=£6,ooo billions made up of housing= £5,000 billion,commercial= £750 billion,farmland= £250 billion.(All land and buildings except, obviously, farmland).These look alright to me (MW is not going to get his figures wrong) and anyway since the VoA does n't have any contrary figures we may as well use our own.Dave W does not seem prepared to use them though. To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
          > From: davewetzel42@...
          > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:03:13 +0100
          > Subject: [LandCafe] How do we get Turkeys to vote for Xmas/Thanksgiving?
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          > I'm just back from Dublin asvocating LVT. The other Saturday I was speaking on LVT to the UK's "Labour Housing Group" who agreed to renew their support for LVT.
          >
          > They are a small group but very influential in Labour circles with Nicky Gavron (the first Deputy Mayor of London) actually present. They discussed with me the problem of getting voters liable to pay LVT on their homes to vote for LVT to replace Council Tax and/or other taxes.
          >
          > (or "How do we get Turkeys to vote for Xmas/Thanksgiving"? We discussed homestead allowance and rollover but Nicky and some others seemed not to be convinced that Labour politicians will suppport a new (even if replacement) tax on homes.
          >
          > Following from this what if Labour committed to introduced LVT on ALL land - except for occupied homes worth less than £2m - and currently paying Council Tax (who would continue to pay Council Tax instead of LVT). [Council Tax is the UK's domestic residentail property tax on occupiers].
          >
          > Occupied homes less than £2m in value and their gardens probably represent less than 5% of the total UK land area. So full LVT would be levied on the remaining 95% including all empty homes, the most expensive houses, house-builders' land banks, all land used for business and commerce, all farmland, all brownfield sites in towns and cities, all windfarms, the spectrum and airport landing slots etc.
          >
          > I recognise that this approach would not have the same beneficial effects as full LVT on all land including occupied residential properties but would it be an approach worth supporting to introduce LVT to the UK?
          >
          > www.LabourLand.org
          > www.TheIU.org
          > www.course.earthrights.net
          >
        • John David Kromkowski
          If one is going to work out a system with exemption/discount (or even benefits - like council tax has for low income, there are benefits calculators which
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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            If one is going to work out a system with exemption/discount (or even benefits - like council tax has for low income, there are benefits calculators which could be modified EG, http://www.wycombe.gov.uk/benefits_calculator/wbc-xpSp12/wbc-xpSp12.htm ),  you've got to have the data.

            I think it would be pretty straight forward to work about benefits calculator (for individuals and/or households) that would do the trick.  That is something that falls somewhere between a Universal Individual (or household) Exemption and a CD for the unemployment or working poor not making a living wage.  

            So a straight tax on on land and then benefits (which would be like the housing allocation benefit that the council tax has as I think I understand it.  (which might only be to ameliorate a portion of the land value tax).

            The best figures to use should come from the VoA  who obviously has experience and whoever is coming up with the council tax values.

            For example,  I looked at the Wycombe District and picked and address at random

            21, Lincoln House, Brookfield Road, Wooburn Green, High Wycombe, Bucks, HP10 0QA

            Some how that property got "assessed" such that its value ended it up in B band and its council tax was

            Amount 2012-13: £1145.91

            The data is somewhere in some computer and in coming up with the assesment to put it into a band, I am pretty sure the land was assessed separately as part of the process.


            It might be old and wrong but, you've got to start somewhere.  Start with what the government is already doing via council tax and business rates.

            JDK




            On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 9:25 AM, David Reed <dbcreed@...> wrote:
            @krj
            We have gone round the houses with these figures before see this September example.
            Dave W is interested in the Mansion Tax style exemption and so needs the correct figures. So back of an envelope style estimates  will not suffice. I gave the following (back in Sept) from your friend and mine (also Dave W's) Mark Wadsworth, fag packet maestro supreme:Total UK property values (ie land and buildings)=£6,ooo billions made up of housing= £5,000 billion,commercial= £750 billion,farmland= £250 billion.(All land and buildings except, obviously, farmland).These look alright to me (MW is not going to get his figures wrong) and anyway since the VoA does n't have any contrary figures we may as well use our own.Dave W does not seem prepared to use them though. 

            To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
            From: davewetzel42@...
            Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:03:13 +0100
            Subject: [LandCafe] How do we get Turkeys to vote for Xmas/Thanksgiving?

             

            I'm just back from Dublin asvocating LVT.
             
            The other Saturday I was speaking on LVT to the UK's "Labour Housing Group" who agreed to renew their support for LVT.
            They are a small group but very influential in Labour circles with Nicky Gavron (the first Deputy Mayor of London) actually present. They discussed with me the problem of getting voters liable to pay LVT on their homes to vote for LVT to replace Council Tax and/or other taxes.
             (or "How do we get Turkeys to vote for Xmas/Thanksgiving"?
            We discussed homestead allowance and rollover but Nicky and some others seemed not to be convinced that Labour politicians will suppport a new (even if replacement) tax on homes.
            Following from this what if Labour committed to introduced LVT on ALL land - except for occupied homes worth less than £2m - and currently paying Council Tax (who would continue to pay Council Tax instead of LVT). [Council Tax is the UK's domestic residentail property tax on occupiers].
            Occupied homes less than £2m in value and their gardens probably represent less than 5% of the total UK land area. So full LVT would be levied on the remaining 95% including all empty homes, the most expensive houses, house-builders' land banks, all land used for business and commerce, all farmland, all brownfield sites in towns and cities, all windfarms, the spectrum and airport landing slots etc.
            I recognise that this approach would not have the same beneficial effects as full LVT on all land including occupied residential properties but would it be an approach worth supporting to introduce LVT to the UK?





            --
            Very truly yours

            John D. Kromkowski
            6803 York Road -- Suite 207
            Baltimore, MD 21212

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          • k_r_johansen
            ... Exactly. There are so many benefits and separate taxes in the UK system that there are countless ways of sneaking in a LVT/UIE without anyone noticing.
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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              --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, John David Kromkowski <jdkromkowski@...> wrote:
              >
              > If one is going to work out a system with exemption/discount (or even
              > benefits - like council tax has for low income, there are benefits
              > calculators which could be modified EG,
              > http://www.wycombe.gov.uk/benefits_calculator/wbc-xpSp12/wbc-xpSp12.htm ),
              > you've got to have the data.
              >
              > I think it would be pretty straight forward to work about benefits
              > calculator (for individuals and/or households) that would do the trick.
              > That is something that falls somewhere between a Universal Individual (or
              > household) Exemption and a CD for the unemployment or working poor not
              > making a living wage.
              >
              > So a straight tax on on land and then benefits (which would be like the
              > housing allocation benefit that the council tax has as I think I understand
              > it. (which might only be to ameliorate a portion of the land value tax).
              >

              Exactly. There are so many benefits and separate taxes in the UK system that there are countless ways of sneaking in a LVT/UIE without anyone noticing. They already have council tax benefit, and for the working population, you could do it as a straight deduction from income taxes exactly equal council benefit. Revalue residental properties, add new bands to council-tax and base it more on land values, steer business rates towards the same valuation method, and they're practically there.

              Kj

              Kj
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