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Re: Graphs & Charts

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  • walto
    ... AFAIK, they ve been done (and can only be done for particular municipalities). The effect on residents will be different depending on the distribution of
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 1, 2011
      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:
      >
      > Someone was recently mentioning having a web site that compared existing tax systems with LVT. Having all data in one point. i.e., a chart or graph showing the average family on the average income and the financial difference. Many people only understand what they will gain.
      >
      > A series of graphs and charts (updated) would be superb. Something the average man, who is not interested in delving into a new system can understand and appreciate.
      >
      > Something like this would give a great impact to acceptance and understanding - easily related to charts. The plethora of words about LVT, economic rent, etc, has made only a small impact - although all is welcome. Has anyone started such web site with graphs.
      >

      AFAIK, they've been done (and can only be done for particular municipalities). The effect on residents will be different depending on the distribution of homeownership, relation of land value to building value, distribution of income, etc.

      I think you'd have to make a ton of false generalizations to try anything general.

      W
    • jdk_maryland_atty
      Generally, they have been done on a municipal basis in PA, MD, NJ, IN, NY, CT, ME. They ve also been done on a county and statewide basis in MD, IN, NJ. I ve
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1, 2011
        Generally, they have been done on a municipal basis in PA, MD, NJ, IN, NY, CT, ME. They've also been done on a county and statewide basis in MD, IN, NJ. I've also seen peer reviewed studies in NH and in TX.

        The issue in the US is that there are often many levels of taxing authority which currently involve the use of the "traditional" property tax (ad valorem on land + improvements): E.g. municipality, township, county, school district, state.

        Using census data and geocoding (code is available and has been used to geocode any address in the US) you could also make a stab (its been done) at estimating how a shift onto land and off of income might also shake out in a general sort of way.

        You have to know/have current assessment data (in a workable format) and current rate data. If you have an assessment data set and the current rates, it is not complex to figure out effect. It is about a day or so of work.

        Of course there can be problems with current assessments but that is the data you have to start working with.

        By the way, there are methods to detect the possibility of fraud in assessments Benford's Law) and/or to detect anomalies (statistical process control techniques among other methods).

        In places where there are no official data, it is a matter of sitting down and thinking up a sound method to create one's own cadestral maps of land value. The estimation of value is not so complicated that it cannot been done on the cheap. But what is required is seriousness and expertise and elbow grease. Talking about it is naturally easier than actually doing it.

        You'll have to use the wayback machine but here is an example of what Josh Vincent and I and some of his interns were doing back in 2007, for Maryland, Indiana, and New Jersey. This one was for Indiana using a dataset I obtained from the state of 3.5+ million properties in Indiana. It included something like 90 of the 92 counties. But you have to understand that each county has about 6 to 12 townships and each township has its own "elected" assessor. And a city could easily straddle townships. You might compare that to Maryland where the processes of assessment was transferred many decades ago away of localities and is now done by the State.

        http://web.archive.org/web/20071215022850/http://www.indianalandvaluetax.org/

        Not sure how much is actually working on the wayback version.

        In the early days (like 2003)we used hacked mashups using Google for mapping, then Google exposed the Map API so we could directly use it.
      • Scott Bergeson
        Quoting jdk_maryland_atty on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:26:43 -0000: there are methods to detect the possibility of fraud in assessments Benford s Law) ... The
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 1, 2011
          Quoting jdk_maryland_atty on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:26:43 -0000:

          there are methods to detect the possibility
          of fraud in assessments Benford's Law)
          -----

          The fraudsters aren't clever enough to generate truly
          random distributions in their concocted data sets?

          Scott
          People do not argue with the teachings of Henry George; they simply
          do not know it. He who becomes acquainted with it, cannot but agree.
          -Count Leo Tolstoy
        • Harry Pollard
          Come the revolution, the Danish land-value map system is an excellent way of dealing with possible graft. Every citizen knows how he - and everyone else - is
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 6, 2011

            Come the revolution, the Danish land-value map system is an excellent way of dealing with possible graft. Every citizen knows how he – and everyone else - is being valued in easily comparable fashion.

             

            Harry

             

            ******************************

            Henry George School of Los Angeles

            10242 Mahogany Trail

            Tujunga  CA 91042

            (818) 352-4141

            ******************************

             

            From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Bergeson
            Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:16 AM
            To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [LandCafe] Graphs & Charts

             

             

            Quoting jdk_maryland_atty on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:26:43 -0000:

            there are methods to detect the possibility
            of fraud in assessments Benford's Law)
            -----

            The fraudsters aren't clever enough to generate truly
            random distributions in their concocted data sets?

            Scott
            People do not argue with the teachings of Henry George; they simply
            do not know it. He who becomes acquainted with it, cannot but agree.
            -Count Leo Tolstoy

          • jdk_maryland_atty
            come the revolution . Really? People get hurt. It is very messy. It can end up just with different thugs or even worse thugs in charge. One of the ways
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 6, 2011
              "come the revolution". Really? People get hurt. It is very messy. It can end up just with different thugs or even worse thugs in charge.

              One of the ways Solidarity in Poland succeeded is that they created parallel structures.

              So how many decades have you been talking about Danish land value map system? Yet, where oh where is the Los Angeles land value map? You are the HG School of LA, right? Why don't you create the maps and put them online. Make your best estimate from assessment data and zillow data and whatever sales data is there. Just Do it, instead of talking about doing it. Create the parallel structure and pray for peaceful evolution.

              You can put things on the ref. ballot in CA. Do it. Organize and do it. I'm sure that Brown (whom I respect) is going to put a revenue measure on the ballot, but what kind? Abolish the taxation of improvements but lift the prop 13 cap? Right it up, start collecting signatures. It is 2011, there is the internet and social media; the capacity to organize has never been easier. Get working on it.

              JDK


              --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pollard" <henrygeorgeschool@...> wrote:
              >
              > Come the revolution, the Danish land-value map system is an excellent way of
              > dealing with possible graft. Every citizen knows how he - and everyone else
              > - is being valued in easily comparable fashion.
              >
              > Harry
              >
              > ******************************
              > Henry George School of Los Angeles
            • Harry Pollard
              John, Not my particular province. Our job is to produce graduates of the School courses - all three of them. At this we haven t done too badly. The Los Angeles
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 6, 2011

                John,

                 

                Not my particular province.

                 

                Our job is to produce graduates of the School courses – all three of them. At this we haven’t done too badly. The Los Angeles School certainly gets more graduates of the three basic Henry George School courses than all the other Henry George Schools put together. Not that this success is as great as it might seem.

                 

                You don’t do that. You have a different direction. So, go ahead and do something useful, such as making a Danish style land-value map.

                 

                Your suggestions for political action are a waste of time. Nevertheless, in California, our graduates have tried most of the political ideas that are put forward (without much success) including sending out to Sacramento County homeowners the amount they would save if we made a change to LVT. We also managed to get a true land-value tax bill passed into law – a permissive law that allowed cities to finance their transit services by a land-value tax. Maybe it’s the only pure LVT legislation in the country  - in the world?

                 

                No city has so far taken advantage of this legislation, which is perhaps to be expected – but it’s on the books.

                 

                I don’t think the Henry George Schools are – or should be – in the “my tax is better than your tax” business. Our job is to show how economically effective is the result of collecting the full Rent. Also, to show how collecting the full Rent is a giant step toward Liberty and Justice for All (but just a beginning step).

                 

                Meantime, I hope your own well-organized cadre is doing well.

                 

                Harry

                 

                ******************************

                Henry George School of Los Angeles

                10242 Mahogany Trail

                Tujunga  CA 91042

                (818) 352-4141

                ******************************

                 

                From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jdk_maryland_atty
                Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 8:44 AM
                To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [LandCafe] Re: Graphs & Charts

                 

                 

                "come the revolution". Really? People get hurt. It is very messy. It can end up just with different thugs or even worse thugs in charge.

                One of the ways Solidarity in Poland succeeded is that they created parallel structures.

                So how many decades have you been talking about Danish land value map system? Yet, where oh where is the Los Angeles land value map? You are the HG School of LA, right? Why don't you create the maps and put them online. Make your best estimate from assessment data and zillow data and whatever sales data is there. Just Do it, instead of talking about doing it. Create the parallel structure and pray for peaceful evolution.

                You can put things on the ref. ballot in CA. Do it. Organize and do it. I'm sure that Brown (whom I respect) is going to put a revenue measure on the ballot, but what kind? Abolish the taxation of improvements but lift the prop 13 cap? Right it up, start collecting signatures. It is 2011, there is the internet and social media; the capacity to organize has never been easier. Get working on it.

                JDK

                --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pollard" <henrygeorgeschool@...> wrote:
                >
                > Come the revolution, the Danish land-value map system is an excellent way of
                > dealing with possible graft. Every citizen knows how he - and everyone else
                > - is being valued in easily comparable fashion.
                >
                >
                Harry
                >
                > ******************************
                > Henry George School of Los Angeles

              • jdk_maryland_atty
                ... No city has so far taken advantage of this legislation, which is perhaps to be expected – but it s on the books.
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 6, 2011
                  >>We also managed to get a true land-value tax bill passed into law – a permissive law that allowed cities to finance their transit services by a land-value tax. Maybe it's the only pure LVT legislation in the country - in the world?

                  No city has so far taken advantage of this legislation, which is perhaps to be expected – but it's on the books.<<

                  What is the statute citation?

                  As to a waste of political effort, I'm not in California, so maybe you are right. But I can bet that there will be a revenue measure on the referendum ballot in California. And if there is ever I guy that can see around the corner and might now give LVT a chance as a hail mary it's Jerry Brown.
                • gareth.doutch
                  John, do you mean this thread? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandCafe/message/9940
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 25, 2011
                    John, do you mean this thread?
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandCafe/message/9940

                    --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Someone was recently mentioning having a web site that compared existing tax systems with LVT. Having all data in one point. i.e., a chart or graph showing the average family on the average income and the financial difference. Many people only understand what they will gain.
                    >
                    > A series of graphs and charts (updated) would be superb. Something the average man, who is not interested in delving into a new system can understand and appreciate.
                    >
                    > Something like this would give a great impact to acceptance and understanding - easily related to charts. The plethora of words about LVT, economic rent, etc, has made only a small impact - although all is welcome. Has anyone started such web site with graphs.
                    >
                  • Scott on the Spot
                    This would be a great idea, but who is going to crunch the data, even for a small region? Every region has different tax policies, resulting in different
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 5, 2011
                      This would be a great idea, but who is going to crunch the data, even for a small region? Every region has different tax policies, resulting in different comparisons. We are trying to do something like this for a state initiative in New York state, but knowledge and manpower are in short supply (I am still learning how to do this myself). It was done in the prosper California website, but not in graph form, just for 3 average families, pre- and post-LVT reform.

                      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "gareth.doutch" <gareth.doutch@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > John, do you mean this thread?
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandCafe/message/9940
                      >
                      > --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Someone was recently mentioning having a web site that compared existing tax systems with LVT. Having all data in one point. i.e., a chart or graph showing the average family on the average income and the financial difference. Many people only understand what they will gain.
                      > >
                      > > A series of graphs and charts (updated) would be superb. Something the average man, who is not interested in delving into a new system can understand and appreciate.
                      > >
                      > > Something like this would give a great impact to acceptance and understanding - easily related to charts. The plethora of words about LVT, economic rent, etc, has made only a small impact - although all is welcome. Has anyone started such web site with graphs.
                      > >
                      >
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