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Grabbing the Young

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  • John
    Geoism is broad and covers much. It encompasses the land - eco, clean air, clean water, clean energy, fair sharing of natures resources, etc, etc. Young
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 22, 2011
      Geoism is broad and covers much. It encompasses the land - eco, clean air, clean water, clean energy, fair sharing of natures resources, etc, etc. Young people are generally eco and have embraced green and eco aspects. Removing abuse of natures resources will appeal to them. Sharing of the proceeds of natures resources will also appeal. Geoism "economics" will draw them in.

      On this forum are not Spring chickens. The young need to be drawn in. They are the ones who will take Geoism forward. First they need to be drawn in, embrace Geoism and take it forward. Geoism appeals to the fair-mindedness of the young. Older people tend to be more focused on self-interest - IMO. A personality cult is not the way to draw the young in.

      Geoists should not be labelled as those who follow some guy who lived long ago who wore a beard.

      Geoism needs marketing from many angles. To grab the young, those in the know will not do it going on about "economic rent".
    • DavidH
      ... Geoism appeals to the fair-mindedness of the young. Older people tend to be more focused on self-interest - IMO. A personality cult is not the way to draw
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 22, 2011
        --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:

        Geoism appeals to the fair-mindedness of the young. Older people tend to be more focused on self-interest - IMO. A personality cult is not the way to draw the young in.
        >
        > Geoists should not be labelled as those who follow some guy who lived long ago who wore a beard.
        >
        > Geoism needs marketing from many angles. To grab the young, those in the know will not do it going on about "economic rent".


        John, I agree substantially with the above. Youthful idealism (of which I used to have a great deal compared to now, at the old age of 37) is one of the most potent forces on earth. The putative knowledge and wisdom of age need to be teamed with the energy and (relative) purity of youth who will refuse to listen to the voices saying their cause is hopeless.

        david harrell
      • John
        ... david, I have just got back from the pub. A semi-political debate emerged for 2 hours with 5 of us - one Japanese. One said I was an idealist - I said a
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 22, 2011
          --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "DavidH" <discodave1974@...> wrote:

          > The putative knowledge and wisdom of age
          > need to be teamed with the energy and
          > (relative) purity of youth who will refuse
          > to listen to the voices saying their cause
          > is hopeless.

          david, I have just got back from the pub. A semi-political debate emerged for 2 hours with 5 of us - one Japanese. One said I was an idealist - I said a realist. His view was that the western systems are corrupt and cannot be put right. I refuse to accept that. I refused to listen. I also refuse to listen to the voices saying their cause is hopeless.

          What I found sad was that they accept the system as it is without much question. Only the young can make real impact.

          Or alternately......as Dan Sullivan stated, only aim for those in power and influence.
        • Jeff Dean
          I m 31 (today, actually) and I agree with John. Young people are not apathetic and they do care about the world, but nobody s offering viable solutions.
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 27, 2011
            I'm 31 (today, actually) and I agree with John. Young people are not apathetic and they do care about the world, but nobody's offering viable solutions. Based on that its entirely reasonable that they should tune out of politics. As Henry George said, people try to satisfy their needs with the least amount of effort, and engaging in mainstream politics doesn't seem like a good use of time if you want to be happy.

            But I've been organizing among young people and trying to spread the word. At parties, music festivals, among activists in the environmental movement, green party and NDP. Some of them definitely get it and often they want to help.

            The UK Lib-Dems have a good pamphlet titled "Land Value Tax and Young People" that I've found helpful and have been handing out to people. Some day I'd like to modify it and some create other pamphlets for my own purposes. A pamphlet on the environmental merits of LVT would also be helpful. If anyone is interested in possibly helping with this project then email me at deanbc@....

            -Jeff Dean

            --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:
            >
            > Geoism is broad and covers much. It encompasses the land - eco, clean air, clean water, clean energy, fair sharing of natures resources, etc, etc. Young people are generally eco and have embraced green and eco aspects. Removing abuse of natures resources will appeal to them. Sharing of the proceeds of natures resources will also appeal. Geoism "economics" will draw them in.
            >
            > On this forum are not Spring chickens. The young need to be drawn in. They are the ones who will take Geoism forward. First they need to be drawn in, embrace Geoism and take it forward. Geoism appeals to the fair-mindedness of the young. Older people tend to be more focused on self-interest - IMO. A personality cult is not the way to draw the young in.
            >
            > Geoists should not be labelled as those who follow some guy who lived long ago who wore a beard.
            >
            > Geoism needs marketing from many angles. To grab the young, those in the know will not do it going on about "economic rent".
            >
          • Harry Pollard
            David, Georgism isn t a personality cult. George isn t the center of things. His writings are. He put into print some of the best criticism, analysis of basic
            Message 5 of 13 , May 7, 2011

              David,

               

              Georgism isn’t a personality cult. George isn’t the center of things. His writings are.

               

              He put into print some of the best criticism, analysis of basic economics, and ways to handle the exposed problems, that have ever been placed in book form.

               

              Some of his writings are positively sublime. Did he make some mistakes? Of course, in the process of re-writing Classical Political Economy.

               

              Seems normal for kids to adopt personalities. They do it all the time. Why should not George be one.

               

              I think that the difficulty in our making more progress has been given a scapegoat that isn’t appropriate.

               

              Harry

               

              ******************************

              Henry George School of Los Angeles

              Box 655  Tujunga  CA 91042

              (818) 352-4141

              ******************************

               

              From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DavidH
              Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:27 PM
              To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [LandCafe] Re: Grabbing the Young

               

               



              --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:

              Geoism appeals to the fair-mindedness of the young. Older people tend to be more focused on self-interest - IMO. A personality cult is not the way to draw the young in.
              >
              > Geoists should not be labelled as those who follow some guy who lived long ago who wore a beard.
              >
              > Geoism needs marketing from many angles. To grab the young, those in the know will not do it going on about "economic rent".

              John, I agree substantially with the above. Youthful idealism (of which I used to have a great deal compared to now, at the old age of 37) is one of the most potent forces on earth. The putative knowledge and wisdom of age need to be teamed with the energy and (relative) purity of youth who will refuse to listen to the voices saying their cause is hopeless.

              david harrell

            • roy_langston1
              ... LOL! What could provide a more eloquent proof that Georgism IS a personality cult? This worshipful attitude is why I neither call nor consider myself a
              Message 6 of 13 , May 7, 2011
                --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pollard" <henrygeorgeschool@...> wrote:

                > Georgism isn't a personality cult. George isn't
                > the center of things. His writings are.

                LOL! What could provide a more eloquent proof
                that Georgism IS a personality cult?

                This worshipful attitude is why I neither call nor
                consider myself a Georgist. George's writings are
                NOT "the center of things." The facts of economics
                are, and they would have been just the same if Henry
                George had never written a word, never existed.

                Henry George is not the center of things.

                George's writings are not the center of things.

                No, Harry, they are not.

                Liberty, justice, and the facts of land economics
                are the center of things. That is what we need
                to focus on, not the writings of Henry George.
                I fear that it is precisely by making Henry
                George's writings the center of things, and by
                conferring upon them priority over liberty,
                justice, and the facts of economics, that Harry
                has fallen into such profound, distracting,
                far-reaching, and seemingly incorrigible error.

                > Seems normal for kids to adopt personalities.
                > They do it all the time. Why should not George
                > be one.

                Because he is problematic for our cause. His
                brand has been, IMO, irreversibly damaged. Harry
                obviously is not fighting in the trenches of the
                Internet forums where "Georgism" is a term of
                derision, ridicule, and dismissal. I have
                repeatedly been dismissed as a "Georgist" -- and
                thus beneath consideration -- even after
                repeatedly disavowing any such allegiance. I can
                do without that kind of aggravation.

                > I think that the difficulty in our making more
                > progress has been given a scapegoat that isn't
                > appropriate.

                There are many reasons our progress has been
                negligible, and the attitude and appellation of
                "Georgism" are probably not among the more
                significant ones. But IMO they are among the
                reasons, and are ones we can easily, and should,
                do something about.

                First step: stop calling our umbrella group the
                "Council of Georgist Organizations." We are
                advocates of land rent recovery, not the Henry
                George Fan Club.

                At least I am.

                -- Roy Langston
              • bruno moser
                9/11 was a tax-funded inside job. Osami Bin Ladi has been dead for 10 years... but YOU tax payers keep up the crime... Bin Laden ist tot -Betrug enthüllt
                Message 7 of 13 , May 8, 2011
                  9/11 was a tax-funded inside job. Osami Bin Ladi has been dead for 10 years... but YOU tax payers keep up the crime...

                  "Bin Laden ist tot"-Betrug enthüllt
                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJFw2rTRys

                  b.



                  --
                  International Land Economics
                  Philadelphia, Hanoi, Les Prés-d'Orvin

                  TWO THOUGHTS FOR TODAY:
                  A man can't ride on your back unless it's bent. -Martin Luther King, Jr., civil-rights leader (1929-1968)

                  Wer die Wahrheit nicht kennt, ist nur ein Dummkopf. Wer sie aber kennt, und sie eine Lüge nennt, ist ein Verbrecher.
                  -Galileo Galilei, Italienischer Physiker und Astronom,(1564 - 1642)


                  On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 7:37 AM, roy_langston1 <roy_langston1@...> wrote:
                   

                  --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pollard" <henrygeorgeschool@...> wrote:

                  > Georgism isn't a personality cult. George isn't
                  > the center of things. His writings are.

                  LOL! What could provide a more eloquent proof
                  that Georgism IS a personality cult?

                  This worshipful attitude is why I neither call nor
                  consider myself a Georgist. George's writings are
                  NOT "the center of things." The facts of economics
                  are, and they would have been just the same if Henry
                  George had never written a word, never existed.

                  Henry George is not the center of things.

                  George's writings are not the center of things.

                  No, Harry, they are not.

                  Liberty, justice, and the facts of land economics
                  are the center of things. That is what we need
                  to focus on, not the writings of Henry George.
                  I fear that it is precisely by making Henry
                  George's writings the center of things, and by
                  conferring upon them priority over liberty,
                  justice, and the facts of economics, that Harry
                  has fallen into such profound, distracting,
                  far-reaching, and seemingly incorrigible error.


                  > Seems normal for kids to adopt personalities.
                  > They do it all the time. Why should not George
                  > be one.

                  Because he is problematic for our cause. His
                  brand has been, IMO, irreversibly damaged. Harry
                  obviously is not fighting in the trenches of the
                  Internet forums where "Georgism" is a term of
                  derision, ridicule, and dismissal. I have
                  repeatedly been dismissed as a "Georgist" -- and
                  thus beneath consideration -- even after
                  repeatedly disavowing any such allegiance. I can
                  do without that kind of aggravation.


                  > I think that the difficulty in our making more
                  > progress has been given a scapegoat that isn't
                  > appropriate.

                  There are many reasons our progress has been
                  negligible, and the attitude and appellation of
                  "Georgism" are probably not among the more
                  significant ones. But IMO they are among the
                  reasons, and are ones we can easily, and should,
                  do something about.

                  First step: stop calling our umbrella group the
                  "Council of Georgist Organizations." We are
                  advocates of land rent recovery, not the Henry
                  George Fan Club.

                  At least I am.

                  -- Roy Langston

                • DavidH
                  ... Let s try to keep it that way. I think I do get a feel, from some Georgist literature and some Georgist letters to the editor, that people tend to put
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 12, 2011
                    --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pollard" <henrygeorgeschool@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > David,
                    >
                    > Georgism isn't a personality cult. George isn't the center of things. His
                    > writings are.



                    Let's try to keep it that way. I think I do get a feel, from some Georgist literature and some Georgist letters to the editor, that people tend to put George a little too front and center (literally, like on the cover of Mason Gaffney's book; is the stern-faced Henry George profile really necessary? The book is not a biography of, or a work by, Henry George; it's about how to design a depression-free economy for the future.)

                    I think that as a historical figure, philosopher, economist and movement leader, George is second to none. He's a fascinating guy, right up there with people like George Washington. Yet again, as Jeff so often says, you communicate in a way that is appropriate to the needs of the audience and the situation. That may entail talking about Henry George, or it may not.

                    david harrell
                  • Joshua Vincent
                    Amen. Joshua Vincent, Executive Director Center for the Study of Economics 413 South 10th Street Philadelphia, PA 19147 215.923.7800 Extension 1
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 12, 2011
                      Amen.
                      Joshua Vincent, Executive Director
                      Center for the Study of Economics
                      413 South 10th Street
                      Philadelphia, PA 19147
                      215.923.7800 Extension 1
                      www.urbantoolsconsult.org 
                      The Center for the Study of Economics is a 501 (c) 3 non-profit educational foundation.
                      Our mission is to research land value taxation, to assist governments in implementation and to study the effect of land based property taxation where used. We suggest implementation where appropriate but do not support political candidates or become involved in the electoral process.



                      On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 12:32 PM, DavidH <discodave1974@...> wrote:
                       



                      --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Pollard" <henrygeorgeschool@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > David,
                      >
                      > Georgism isn't a personality cult. George isn't the center of things. His
                      > writings are.

                      Let's try to keep it that way. I think I do get a feel, from some Georgist literature and some Georgist letters to the editor, that people tend to put George a little too front and center (literally, like on the cover of Mason Gaffney's book; is the stern-faced Henry George profile really necessary? The book is not a biography of, or a work by, Henry George; it's about how to design a depression-free economy for the future.)

                      I think that as a historical figure, philosopher, economist and movement leader, George is second to none. He's a fascinating guy, right up there with people like George Washington. Yet again, as Jeff so often says, you communicate in a way that is appropriate to the needs of the audience and the situation. That may entail talking about Henry George, or it may not.

                      david harrell


                    • John
                      ... Jeff, Great work. A great drawing point of LVT is NO INCOME TAX. Young people like more expendable income, or more income to improve their life styles.
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 12, 2011
                        --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Dean" <monkeymanjeff@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I'm 31 (today, actually) and I agree with John. Young people are not apathetic and they do care about the world, but nobody's offering viable solutions. Based on that its entirely reasonable that they should tune out of politics. As Henry George said, people try to satisfy their needs with the least amount of effort, and engaging in mainstream politics doesn't seem like a good use of time if you want to be happy.
                        >
                        > But I've been organizing among young people and trying to spread the word. At parties, music festivals, among activists in the environmental movement, green party and NDP. Some of them definitely get it and often they want to help.
                        >
                        > The UK Lib-Dems have a good pamphlet titled "Land Value Tax and Young People" that I've found helpful and have been handing out to people. Some day I'd like to modify it and some create other pamphlets for my own purposes. A pamphlet on the environmental merits of LVT would also be helpful. If anyone is interested in possibly helping with this project then email me at deanbc@...
                        >

                        Jeff, Great work. A great drawing point of LVT is NO INCOME TAX. Young people like more expendable income, or more income to improve their life styles. A young couple with children prefer money now rather than money later that is locked into the land under their house when they are older.

                        The ECO aspect must be emphasized. Geosim has to keep up with events and movements.
                      • John
                        ...
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 12, 2011
                          --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "John" <burns-john@...> wrote:

                          >  In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Dean" <monkeymanjeff@> wrote:

                          > > The UK Lib-Dems have a good pamphlet 
                          > > titled "Land Value Tax and Young People" 

                          Here it is: 


                          The raw text.....

                          ALTER ACTION FOR LAND TAXATION & ECONOMIC REFORM

                          LAND VALUE TAX AND YOUNG PEOPLE

                          The recent Budget has thrown into sharp contrast the treatment of the younger and the older generation. Young people see their benefits are cut or their growth linked to the lower CPI measure of inflation. Public spending which most benefits them - schools, university places, Sure Start centres – face unprecedented cuts. Those in retirement however see their universal benefits retained and kept in line with the higher RPI  measure of inflation. Health spending, which pensioners receive far more of in per capita terms, is one of the few areas protected from austerity measures.

                          This pamphlet focuses on the transfer of wealth from the young to the old, wealth which is unearned by the older generation. The pamphlet also suggests the solution to this injustice: Land Value Tax (LVT).

                          ACTION FOR LAND TAXATION & ECONOMIC REFORM

                          The imbalance of wealth between the generations: There exists in Britain an imbalance of financial wealth between the generations. Our wealth comes in three main forms: our financial assets (bank and building society deposits, stocks and shares), our house and our pension. Of the total £6.7tn of personal wealth in our country, a mere £0.9tn is held by under 45s. This rises to £3.5tn for the `baby boomers' aged between 45 and 65, with £2.3tn held by over 65s.  

                          This disparity is understandable. After all, it takes time to build up some savings, get the deposit for a house and maybe buy some shares; and it helps if you've had time to progress up the career ladder and seen your children fly the nest. Hence you expect to start with few assets at the beginning of your life (inherited wealth notwithstanding), and build them up over the course of your life. What is more worrying is the trend over time. In the decade following 1995, the median personal wealth of individuals under 45 collapsed by over two thirds, while all other age ranges experienced large increases, particularly the older baby boomer (55-64), whose median personal wealth tripled. A large driver of this transfer of wealth is the housing market. Those early boomers were able to get on the housing ladder when housing was relatively cheap, saw their mortgage debts eroded by high inflation in the 60s and 70s, and then saw the values of their homes rocket in subsequent asset bubbles.

                          This has led to huge increases in the wealth of the propertied middle-aged and elderly, at the same time as pricing houses out of the reach of the younger generations.

                          The rise in house prices was not earned by the owner occupiers: The surge in house prices has clearly been a massive transfer of wealth from the un-propertied young to the propertied middle-aged and old. But this wealth has not been
                          produced by those who have gained it. It is essentially an increase in land values – as the saying goes: "Buy land, they don't make it any more."

                          The increase in land value is the product of the whole community: when a local school improves, the land value goes up; when the local road network is improved, the land value goes up. Those who have been able to buy a house have privatised
                          the gains conferred by society as a whole. 

                          Land Value Tax would lower house prices and could replace inequitable taxes that hurt young workers: The solution to this is the introduction of LVT 

                          This would ensure the value created by the community, expressed in increased land values, is collected for the benefit of the community.

                          The revenue raised could enable those taxes that fall particularly hard on those who work for a living, such as income tax, to be greatly reduced. The threshold for basic rate income tax could be raised, benefiting those most needing work – particularly the
                          young.

                          The introduction of LVT would also have the benefit of reducing the value of land by the proportion of the value taxed, resulting in a fall of house prices. LVT would also encourage landlords to make the most of their holdings, spurring the creation of housing in underused land in our towns and cities. Affordable housing would become a reality for young people. 

                          Land Value Tax would create a more stable economy: The recent financial crisis has hit young people very hard, with 40% of the unemployed being under 25.

                          The financial crisis was in large part caused by a housing bubble. As the bubble grew, fuelled by property speculation and risky mortgage lending, people thought the rise in house prices was inevitable and based on fundamentals. As rises in house prices
                          outstripped rises in income, people borrowed against their house price to keep up their consumption, while private savings collapsed.

                          Once the housing bubble burst, however, people couldn't keep up their consumption. Demand collapsed, leading to the destructive world-wide recession. LVT would considerably dampen property speculation and housing bubbles, leading to sustainable growth. The economic shocks that so hurt young people would be far less frequent and
                          severe.

                          LVT would be very beneficial for young people: LVT would lower house prices, reduce the tax burden that falls on young workers and would avert the financial crises that hit the young disproportionately hard.

                          Liberal Democrat
                          Action for Land Taxation and Economic Reform
                          Author: S R J Clarke
                          Contact us at info@...

                          One of a series of LVT information sheets, editor D Cooper ©ALTER MMX
                          Printed and published by P. Elderton, 86 Rothes Road Dorking, Surrey RH4 1LB

                        • Edward Dodson
                          David Harrell wrote: I think that as a historical figure, philosopher, economist and movement leader, George is second to none. He s a fascinating guy, right
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 12, 2011
                            David Harrell wrote:

                            I think that as a historical figure, philosopher, economist and movement
                            leader, George is second to none. He's a fascinating guy, right up there
                            with people like George Washington. Yet again, as Jeff so often says, you
                            communicate in a way that is appropriate to the needs of the audience and
                            the situation. That may entail talking about Henry George, or it may not.

                            Ed Dodson here:
                            I do not think of myself as a "Georgist" or even a "Geoist." Henry George's
                            principles are consistent with the ideals of cooperative individualism,
                            which puts him in the company of some remarkably clear-thinking people. I
                            often describe Thomas Paine as the architect of cooperative individualism,
                            and that Henry George lifted the torch that fell to the ground from Paine's
                            hands.
                          • Harry Pollard
                            Young people don t think a lot about taxation until they get a fulltime job. Then, to their horror, the large salary they thought they were going to get
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 27, 2011

                              Young people don’t think a lot about taxation until they get a fulltime job. Then, to their horror, the large salary they thought they were going to get becomes emasculated.

                               

                              Perhaps we should direct our attention to that.

                               

                              Harry  

                               

                              ******************************

                              Henry George School of Los Angeles

                              Box 655  Tujunga  CA 91042

                              (818) 352-4141

                              ******************************

                               

                              From: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LandCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
                              Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:05 PM
                              To: LandCafe@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [LandCafe] Re: Grabbing the Young

                               

                               


                              --- In LandCafe@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Dean" <monkeymanjeff@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm 31 (today, actually) and I agree with John. Young people are not apathetic and they do care about the world, but nobody's offering viable solutions. Based on that its entirely reasonable that they should tune out of politics. As Henry George said, people try to satisfy their needs with the least amount of effort, and engaging in mainstream politics doesn't seem like a good use of time if you want to be happy.
                              >
                              > But I've been organizing among young people and trying to spread the word. At parties, music festivals, among activists in the environmental movement, green party and NDP. Some of them definitely get it and often they want to help.
                              >
                              > The UK Lib-Dems have a good pamphlet titled "Land Value Tax and Young People" that I've found helpful and have been handing out to people. Some day I'd like to modify it and some create other pamphlets for my own purposes. A pamphlet on the environmental merits of LVT would also be helpful. If anyone is interested in possibly helping with this project then email me at deanbc@...
                              >

                              Jeff, Great work. A great drawing point of LVT is NO INCOME TAX. Young people like more expendable income, or more income to improve their life styles. A young couple with children prefer money now rather than money later that is locked into the land under their house when they are older.

                              The ECO aspect must be emphasized. Geosim has to keep up with events and movements.

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