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1157Re: [Lambengolmor] An experiment in translation

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  • tyrhael_idhraen
    Aug 27, 2014
      Dear Helios,

      A few thoughts and comments:

      I think your endeavor to compare translations—in order to illuminate what's commonly held in our neo-Q conceptions—is a good idea. On that note, there are two other translations of this that I'm aware of - one is by "beriolon," quoted on the Gwaith-i-Phethain Facebook page, said to be "sent but not accepted," and the other by "Gladhaniel," though she didn't submit hers to Lambengolmor so I'm not sure if she'd want hers discussed.

      [Re: "Sent but not accepted" — because sent by someone _not_ the author. I asked the sender to ask the author submit it themselves, which has not (yet) happened. CFH] 

      : more likely Ryszard coined this based on quëan/quain in Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals (VT48:6), though as that dates from the late 1960s my expectation is that in the Rotterdam poem JRRT had not yet switched from k- to qu- in his words for "ten." beriolon uses yurasta, and similar to yours has anda sírenen.

      never: beriolon has uvoro where Gladhaniel has lá lúmesse "at no time."

      : you note that in WPP:143 Tolkien abandons AL/LA for negation, and Bill Welden notes in VT42:32 that this may be "possibly soon after publication of The Lord of the Rings." I used al in a gamble that he didn't make this change until 1959 (where we have attested links to yes/good/pleasure), but it may very well have been before 1958. PE17:149 links ALA with "good" in a note the editors date c. 1957-9 in VT49:12. At any rate, the Rotterdam poem will hopefully allow us to more accurately pinpoint the dating of that change (if "never" cooperates), though some cross-referencing of ba(n) vs. men would also perhaps be of use.

      return: like you, Gladhaniel has entuluva, where beriolon uses peluvar, presumably in a sense of "rotate back" (before Tolkien switched to √kwer in PE17:65).

      loali: I think you are correct with this; if I were to amend my version I'd probably use this.

      palantirya: my formation is based on melumatya and saukarya (PE17:68, 1967), as well as fantarkenya (p. 176, perhaps c. mid-60s, cf. p.110). Those are admittedly later than the Rotterdam poem, but so is Markirya, and you note some convincing reasons why you wouldn't use -la. Admittedly, -ya is "present" ... but I figure cennen marks the tense enough for context to clarify. beriolon uses qui palantirin, cennen, "*when I look far away, I saw" and Gladhaniel cendala háyave, cennenye "watching far away, I saw."

      ages: belioron yéni, Gladhaniel randar (Etym.)

      : you are right about my choice coming from yá hríve tene, but we also see a similar form in Aia María III (VT43:27,34) from the 1950s. Gladhaniel also uses , where beriolon has ívë (if not a typo for írë, perhaps related to the deictic stem i- as in ier (VT43:16) and -ve as in síve/tambe (VT43:17)).

      lostaner: the other possibility is that "bloom," rather than refer to flowers, is more in a general sense using ala- (PE17:132) from GAL(A) "grow, flourish, be vigorous, bloom" (153). Gladhaniel thereby uses aldar alle, though aldar alaner/áler might also happen. Beriolon's simply has haryaner lóti "possessed flowers."

      free: Gladhaniel has lerine like Björn's, where beriolon has ranyave (VT46:10 plus -ve as in andave).

      wide country: Gladhaniel has yanda nóresse where beriolon uses landa nóresse.

      alas (etc.): beriolon uses Ai, sí like Ryszard, where Gladhaniel has Nai! an sin using nai and sin (both from Etym.), the latter perhaps because the next word begins with i-.

      all: beriolon has ilya like most, Gladhaniel illi.

      begin to wither: beriolon also posits a verb yesta-, but uses fire where we have quele; Gladhaniel has hestuvar "shall wither," using a verb from QL. They both use i foasse for "in the breath," cp. √PHAW "emit (foul breath etc.)" (PE17:181), foa in VT47:35-6, and foalóke.

      cold-hearted: beriolon's is the same as Ryszard's, where Gladhaniel has lé ringe óri, with "with" from PE17:95.

      wizards: beriolon has istarion, Gladhaniel has curuvarion (QL:49). The latter still could be valid, considering Curumo/Curunír "Saruman", with adjectival -va and agentive -r.


      Matt Dinse (I see I forgot to sign my name earlier)
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