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1156Re: [Lambengolmor] An experiment in translation

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  • meglimorco
    Aug 27, 2014
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      Helios wrote:


      > The

      negation expressed in English by the adverb "never" is transferred

      > to the verb later in this line, partly because it is

      coherent with

      > Tolkien's comments about negation (see below), but

      also because I did

      > not find a satisfactory translation of such adverb.

      Ryszard and Björn

      > coincided in using a compound of _ú-_ + _lúme_

      'time' (V:370), i.e. *'in

      > no time', that reminds of _ullume_ in Fíriel's song

      (IV:72), but that

      > word is problematic. The complete sentence of

      Fíriel's song is _úye sére

      > indo-ninya símen ullume_, 'my heart resteth not here

      for ever', where

      > the negative sense is already present in the verb

      _úye_ *'does not'. So

      > it could be a double negation (lit. *'does not rest

      ... not for ever'),

      > which could support using _ullume_ or something

      similar as 'never'; but

      > it could also be that _ullume_ *'in no time' just

      meant 'for ever'.

      > Actually, WPP:156 cites a note dated 1964 glossing

      _úlume_ as "'ever',

      > at all times (in a series or period)".


      My use of _úlume_ is based on that note. I assumed that _úlume_  ... _lá_ 'ever ... not' would equal 'never'.


      >     On the other hand, Ryszard and Björn used

      _íre_ 'when' from

      > Fíriel's song. (I initially thought that Björn had

      written _yáíre_ by

      > blending both words, but that seems to be a

      fortuituous result of a lost

      > line break: the notes of the message and the oddly

      juxtaposed long

      > vowels suggest that _yá_ belongs to the previous

      verse, although Björn

      > did not explain its meaning there.)


      Yes, somehow the line break disappeared on its way to Yahoo.


      The _yá_ is that of the Etymologies ('ago', V:399). Thus _vanwe andave yá_ is intended to mean 'past (pl.) long ago'.


      > _latine_: 'free' (pl.). Plural of the adjective

      _latina_ related to

      > "freedom of movement, of things not encumbered

      with obstacles", derived

      > from the root LAT- (WPP:159, also cited in VT41:5).

      Each author has made

      > a different proposal for this adjective. The closest

      one is Björn's

      > *_lérine_: he likely derived it from the adjective

      _lerina_ 'of things:

      > not guarded, reserved, made fast, or

      "owned"', cited in a note about the

      > root LER- (WPP:160, VT41:5), which Tolkien obviously

      wrote in parallel

      > with the note of LAT-.


      The _é_ is a typo; it should be _lerine_ of course. Thank you for spotting this.


      <> Björn Fromén

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