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Bluetooth RS232-connection

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  • paolo becchi
    I have the need of connecting a remote WS2300 and WS8610 units to my computer. I think that it should be easy using two Bluetooth dongles connected to each
    Message 1 of 9 , May 31, 2011
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      I have the need of connecting a remote WS2300 and WS8610 units to my
      computer.

      I think that it should be easy using two Bluetooth dongles connected to each
      unit.

      Unfortunately I don't find any info on this in the forum and I doubt if it
      is possible.



      Could anybody help me on this?

      Is the RS232 cable used by the units a standard one ( with the conventional
      pin assignement)?



      Thank you in advance.



      Paolo



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeff Bogumil
      Use of a bluetooth dongle for communication requires that the device(s) and port the dongle is attached to has been expressly designed for the purpose-- either
      Message 2 of 9 , May 31, 2011
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        Use of a bluetooth dongle for communication requires that the device(s) and
        port the dongle is attached to has been expressly designed for the purpose--
        either with appropriate firmware, or loadable device drivers.

        That is not true of LaCrosse weather stations.


        On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:19 AM, paolo becchi <pbecchi@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > I have the need of connecting a remote WS2300 and WS8610 units to my
        > computer.
        >
        > I think that it should be easy using two Bluetooth dongles connected to
        > each
        > unit.
        >
        > Unfortunately I don't find any info on this in the forum and I doubt if it
        > is possible.
        >
        > Could anybody help me on this?
        >
        > Is the RS232 cable used by the units a standard one ( with the conventional
        > pin assignement)?
        >
        > Thank you in advance.
        >
        > Paolo
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Hans Kjaergaard
        ... Yes, but be aware that the weather stations use 2 handshake pins as a reference for the data-signals. They need to stay high and low for the weather
        Message 3 of 9 , May 31, 2011
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          > Is the RS232 cable used by the units a standard one ( with the conventional
          >pin assignement)?
          Yes, but be aware that the weather stations use 2 handshake pins as a
          reference for the data-signals. They need to stay high and low for the
          weather stations to be able to transmit anything.

          So if your Bluetooth deviceses do not support the use of HW handshake
          signals you are lost.


          /Hans
        • paolo becchi
          Thanks Hans I would like to get some info on this form of handshaking ws2300 uses. I know that there is problem connecting through standard Bluetooth dongle
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 1, 2011
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            Thanks Hans



            I would like to get some info on this form of handshaking ws2300 uses.

            I know that there is problem connecting through standard Bluetooth dongle
            and standard USB adapter and I think that the reason is this non standard
            handshaking.

            But now LaCrosse ship a USB adapter that work with a ws2300 (and,I hope,
            ws8310) unit.

            Therefore I think there must be a way (hardware or software) to overcome the
            handshaking difference!



            Thank you again



            Paolo





            _____

            From: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hans
            Kjaergaard
            Sent: martedì 31 maggio 2011 19.14
            To: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [LacrosseWS] Bluetooth RS232-connection





            > Is the RS232 cable used by the units a standard one ( with the
            conventional
            >pin assignement)?
            Yes, but be aware that the weather stations use 2 handshake pins as a
            reference for the data-signals. They need to stay high and low for the
            weather stations to be able to transmit anything.

            So if your Bluetooth deviceses do not support the use of HW handshake
            signals you are lost.

            /Hans





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Chuck
            ... This is interesting, Hans. Does this mean that I could physically modify a USB/RS232 dongle so that the handshake pins are strapped to either high or low
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 1, 2011
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              --- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, Hans Kjaergaard <hans.k2teknik@...> wrote:
              > Yes, but be aware that the weather stations use 2 handshake pins as a
              > reference for the data-signals. They need to stay high and low for the
              > weather stations to be able to transmit anything.

              This is interesting, Hans. Does this mean that I could physically modify a USB/RS232 dongle so that the handshake pins are strapped to either high or low (whichever is required) and that would make one of these work for connecting my laptop to my WS3600?

              Thanks,
              Chuck
            • paolo becchi
              Hello Hans Let me try to summarize what I have understood from your explanation and some other reading Handshaking is done with the two pin: 7 CTS clear to
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 1, 2011
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                Hello Hans

                Let me try to summarize what I have understood from your explanation and
                some other reading

                Handshaking is done with the two pin:
                7 CTS clear to send set to "0" positive voltage
                8 RTS ready to send set to "1" negative voltage

                Booth pin are set by the PC for the transmission to start(may be they
                are set the other way around....I really don’t know).

                Signal are on standard pin 2 and pin 3, but 0 volt reference is not
                on pin 5 as usual
                It will then be necessary to connect with appropriate resistor the
                three pin this way:

                Pin7-----resistor------pin5------resistor ------pin8

                So that when pin7 is +5V and pin 8 is -5V pin5 is 0V.

                Do you think this will work ?

                As you understand I am not en expert in electronics; therefore I need
                support and suggestions.

                Thank you

                Paolo

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Hans Kjaergaard [mailto:hans.k2teknik@...]
                Sent: mercoledì 1 giugno 2011 13.01
                To: paolo becchi
                Subject: Re: [LacrosseWS] Bluetooth RS232-connection

                Hi Paolo

                It is tricky the way they use the handshake.
                Now I do not know how much you know about electronics, but I hope you
                have some KnowHow ?

                First of all, there is no "Ground Signal" in the LaCrosse.

                On the PC that runs the LaCrosse Sw they setup two of the HW
                handshake signals respectively to High and Low.

                So the LaCrosse do that trick that it short curcits the Data pin to
                respectively the High and Low Handshakes pins to produce a signal.

                One could make a pice of HW to interface betwen the LaCrosse and any
                RS232 device, it should be simple.


                /Hans

                On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 12:28:35 +0200, you wrote:

                >Thanks Hans
                >
                >
                >
                >I would like to get some info on this form of handshaking ws2300 uses.
                >
                >I know that there is problem connecting through standard Bluetooth dongle
                >and standard USB adapter and I think that the reason is this non standard
                >handshaking.
                >
                >But now LaCrosse ship a USB adapter that work with a ws2300 (and,I hope,
                >ws8310) unit.
                >
                >Therefore I think there must be a way (hardware or software) to overcome
                the
                >handshaking difference!
                >
                >
                >
                >Thank you again
                >
                >
                >
                >Paolo
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                >From: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
                >[mailto:Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hans
                >Kjaergaard
                >Sent: martedì 31 maggio 2011 19.14
                >To: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [LacrosseWS] Bluetooth RS232-connection
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >> Is the RS232 cable used by the units a standard one ( with the
                >conventional
                >>pin assignement)?
                >Yes, but be aware that the weather stations use 2 handshake pins as a
                >reference for the data-signals. They need to stay high and low for the
                >weather stations to be able to transmit anything.
                >
                >So if your Bluetooth deviceses do not support the use of HW handshake
                >signals you are lost.
                >
                >/Hans
                >
                >
              • ajtestani
                I have a WS-2308 that I am finally getting out to put up a weather station about 2500 feet from the computer to receive the data and post it to a web site.
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 16, 2011
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                  I have a WS-2308 that I am finally getting out to put up a weather station about 2500 feet from the computer to receive the data and post it to a web site. I've designed and built a set of radio modems that work fine to transmit "normal" serial data. I then came across the weird way Lacrosse implements the serial port on the base unit. In researching this I came upon this thread. I hope someone here can help me.

                  I need more detail on how this interface works without a ground connection on pin 5 yet work with a standard PC COM port! I obviously need some circuit at the front end of one of the radio modems (which looks like a standard "DCE" right now). I don't need to use standard handshaking (RTS/CTS) but do have RS-232 level RTS and CTS signals on the DB9 connector. I can use those to create RTS and DTR and set the levels accordingly.

                  However, I don't understand what the overall COM circuit looks like with the WS-23xx and PC so am unsure how to proceed. Any information (and especially a schematic) would be really helpful. Thanks

                  Al
                  --- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, Hans Kjaergaard <hans.k2teknik@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Is the RS232 cable used by the units a standard one ( with the conventional
                  > >pin assignement)?
                  > Yes, but be aware that the weather stations use 2 handshake pins as a
                  > reference for the data-signals. They need to stay high and low for the
                  > weather stations to be able to transmit anything.
                  >
                  > So if your Bluetooth deviceses do not support the use of HW handshake
                  > signals you are lost.
                  >
                  >
                  > /Hans
                  >
                • Jeff Bogumil
                  So far as I am aware (from long, frustrating experience with the LaCrosse WS-8610) neither schematics nor, really, any technical documentation is available
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 17, 2011
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                    So far as I am aware (from long, frustrating experience with the LaCrosse
                    WS-8610) neither schematics nor, really, any technical documentation is
                    available from LaCrosse for their products; either current or now
                    discontinued models. And public-service efforts at reverse engineering, for
                    which we should nonetheless be very grateful, have had limited success.

                    I don't know offhand, where/how the WS-2308 fits into the LaCrosse
                    weather-station hierarchy, but the best documentation I've seen for the
                    WS8610 and several roughly contemporaneous Lacrosse WS models can be found
                    in notes/comments/annotation included with the semi-operational (Open8610)
                    source code in this Yahoo discussion (Lacrosse_weather_stations) group's
                    online file archive.

                    Note that new/revised code (WS8610-CS.zip, that I have not as yet tried
                    myself) was posted in recent months-- which, hopefully, may resolve some
                    nagging comm-protocol problems. Source code notes/annotations include
                    cryptic explanation of the unorthodox bit-banging Lacrosse protocol-- that
                    is not properly called RS-232, but Lacrosse and the rest of us call it that
                    because it can be made to work (by bit-banging) through legacy UART-based PC
                    RS-232 comm ports. Cable pin-outs are specified in other Yahoo group
                    archive files.

                    Good luck, and please post to the group anything useful that you learn.

                    Jeff

                    On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:10 AM, ajtestani <atestani@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > I have a WS-2308 that I am finally getting out to put up a weather station
                    > about 2500 feet from the computer to receive the data and post it to a web
                    > site. I've designed and built a set of radio modems that work fine to
                    > transmit "normal" serial data. I then came across the weird way Lacrosse
                    > implements the serial port on the base unit. In researching this I came upon
                    > this thread. I hope someone here can help me.
                    >
                    > I need more detail on how this interface works without a ground connection
                    > on pin 5 yet work with a standard PC COM port! I obviously need some circuit
                    > at the front end of one of the radio modems (which looks like a standard
                    > "DCE" right now). I don't need to use standard handshaking (RTS/CTS) but do
                    > have RS-232 level RTS and CTS signals on the DB9 connector. I can use those
                    > to create RTS and DTR and set the levels accordingly.
                    >
                    > However, I don't understand what the overall COM circuit looks like with
                    > the WS-23xx and PC so am unsure how to proceed. Any information (and
                    > especially a schematic) would be really helpful. Thanks
                    >
                    > Al
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ajtestani
                    I agree with the total lack of information from Lacrosse as well as the reverse engineering efforts. On this particular issue I have yet to try it but I
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 17, 2011
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                      I agree with the total lack of information from Lacrosse as well as the reverse engineering efforts.

                      On this particular issue I have yet to try it but I believe I understand the issue and have a way around it for my radio modems. My question was to get information to verify this. I have done more research since my post below and think I have it.

                      Bottom line is Lacrosse took this approach to save a few cents in the hardware and while it does work with "real" com ports on PCs and the better grade of USB to serial adapters, it is a cheap kludge of a way to implement serial communications.

                      It appears that to avoid the cost of a MAX232 type device (used everywhere else) and 6 capacitors, what they did was "steal" +V and -V from the PC (or USB to serial adapter if it supports all the handshake signals). By setting RTS to +V and DTR to -V they effectively have these voltages and a virtual ground between them and they got it all for free. For receiving commands from the PC they compare the incoming RXD signal to the virtual ground. For responses transmitted back to the PC they simply connect either the RTS or DTR "voltages" to the TXD pin. There is NO handshaking going on in this interface. It is a simple Rx/Tx interface.

                      When I verify this with real hardware including the "fix" I have in mind to deal with it, I'll put something in the files section describing it all.

                      Al

                      --- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Bogumil <rjbogumil@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > So far as I am aware (from long, frustrating experience with the LaCrosse
                      > WS-8610) neither schematics nor, really, any technical documentation is
                      > available from LaCrosse for their products; either current or now
                      > discontinued models. And public-service efforts at reverse engineering, for
                      > which we should nonetheless be very grateful, have had limited success.
                      >
                      > I don't know offhand, where/how the WS-2308 fits into the LaCrosse
                      > weather-station hierarchy, but the best documentation I've seen for the
                      > WS8610 and several roughly contemporaneous Lacrosse WS models can be found
                      > in notes/comments/annotation included with the semi-operational (Open8610)
                      > source code in this Yahoo discussion (Lacrosse_weather_stations) group's
                      > online file archive.
                      >
                      > Note that new/revised code (WS8610-CS.zip, that I have not as yet tried
                      > myself) was posted in recent months-- which, hopefully, may resolve some
                      > nagging comm-protocol problems. Source code notes/annotations include
                      > cryptic explanation of the unorthodox bit-banging Lacrosse protocol-- that
                      > is not properly called RS-232, but Lacrosse and the rest of us call it that
                      > because it can be made to work (by bit-banging) through legacy UART-based PC
                      > RS-232 comm ports. Cable pin-outs are specified in other Yahoo group
                      > archive files.
                      >
                      > Good luck, and please post to the group anything useful that you learn.
                      >
                      > Jeff
                      >
                      > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:10 AM, ajtestani <atestani@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I have a WS-2308 that I am finally getting out to put up a weather station
                      > > about 2500 feet from the computer to receive the data and post it to a web
                      > > site. I've designed and built a set of radio modems that work fine to
                      > > transmit "normal" serial data. I then came across the weird way Lacrosse
                      > > implements the serial port on the base unit. In researching this I came upon
                      > > this thread. I hope someone here can help me.
                      > >
                      > > I need more detail on how this interface works without a ground connection
                      > > on pin 5 yet work with a standard PC COM port! I obviously need some circuit
                      > > at the front end of one of the radio modems (which looks like a standard
                      > > "DCE" right now). I don't need to use standard handshaking (RTS/CTS) but do
                      > > have RS-232 level RTS and CTS signals on the DB9 connector. I can use those
                      > > to create RTS and DTR and set the levels accordingly.
                      > >
                      > > However, I don't understand what the overall COM circuit looks like with
                      > > the WS-23xx and PC so am unsure how to proceed. Any information (and
                      > > especially a schematic) would be really helpful. Thanks
                      > >
                      > > Al
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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