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[LacrosseWS] Re: technical data on wind sensor for 23** models

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  • wuhu_software
    I suppose we should start another thread to discuss lightning, but I thought I would toss this one in. I have to agree about running wirelessly to spare your
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 1, 2007
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      I suppose we should start another thread to discuss lightning, but I
      thought I would toss this one in.

      I have to agree about running wirelessly to spare your computer from
      nearby lightning strikes. Since there are probably a few new people in
      the list since Christmas, I thought I would give a bit more detail about
      the lightning situation and La Crosse units.

      Over the past couple years, there have been several reports of La Crosse
      users losing their consoles and/or PC serial ports after a nearby
      lightning strike. I am kind of surprised that the entire motherboard was
      not fried if the serial port was taken out but I guess that is a whole
      different topic.

      Because of the scheme used by La Crosse, at least one of your serial
      port lines is effectively extended all the way to the wind sensor,
      making at a nice antenna for EM energy induced by lightning.

      Last year, I had a nearby lightning strike (within 100ft I would guess),
      the serial port surge protector saved my serial port and more
      importantly my PC, but fried the console. The surge did not damage the
      serial port protector itself, and the remote thermo unit and wind sensor
      were fine. My results may not be typical, but I am glad that I had some
      minimal protection. Replacing a console is much much cheaper than
      replacing a PC.

      If you are in a region where you get a lot of lightning, and you are
      running wired mode, be prepared to switch over to wireless mode. Unless
      you plan on jumping out of bed in the middle of the night to switch
      over, you might want to consider some *minimal* form of protection like
      the protector mentioned below.

      Here is the company I purcashed mine from, type sp103 in the search box
      to find it. It is the DB-9 inline version.

      http://www.mc3llc.com/ <http://www.mc3llc.com/>

      Description: DB9 RS232 Serial DataLine Surge Protector - This DataLine
      Surge Protector protect your serial port against power surges. It has
      extremely sensitive, state of the art avalanche-diode technology. It has
      high speed throughput, automatic reset after surge, rugged & stylish
      with easy In-Line installation and negligible signal loss.


      --- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, Ken
      <kenandmichele@...> wrote:
      >
      > In Australia, and I'd imagine the US, phone lines are not grounded at
      > the house, but at the exchange. It is totally verboten to connect the
      > phone line to anything related to ground or mains at the house.
      > Circuitry that the line goes into has to be isolated by at least
      > 3000v. Hence isolating transformers in modems etc.
      >
      > What you do get, are lightning arrestors, which will conduct phone
      > lines to ground in event of a very high voltage appearing on either
      > phone wire. But the arrestor device should normally be open circuit.
      >
      > The issue for the weatherstation setup in event of a lightning strike
      > is an exposed circuit outside at one end, and a PC connected to mains
      > ground at the other. A strike nearby will induce a current (and hence
      > voltage) in the connecting cable. A direct hit will apply extreme
      > voltage to the sensors. In that case, you would probably lose the
      > sensors, console and PC. Which is why a wireless setup is much safer
      > for the console and PC. A short run from wind and rain sensors to the
      > sender box makes sense too.
      >
      > A lightning arrestor on the WS connecting cables would still allow
      > voltages to go too high. To protect the PC, high-power zener diodes
      > on the serial lines to its ground would protect it against all but a
      > direct strike. These are/were used in repeaters in Oz along
      > telecommunication coaxial cables. Despite being underground, they
      > still had large currents induced into them. The zeners would protect
      > the first time, but self-destruct open-circuit.
      >
      > (Ex Telstra) Ken.
      >
      >
      > <snip>
      > >
      > > Does anyone know how the phone lines are grounded coming into a
      house?
      > > The cable is just a phone cord, perhaps if it is run through some
      kind
      > > of a grounding block where it enters the house...
      > >
      > > Larry
      > >
      > <snip>
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • don_wa5ngp
      I can t resist not kicking in my 2cents on the lightning. If you are in an area prone to lightning I would agree with all the advice and precautions
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 1, 2007
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        I can't resist not kicking in my 2cents on the lightning. If you are
        in an area prone to lightning I would agree with all the advice and
        precautions especially if live somewhere like the Florida gulf coast.
        Sometimes its hard to know exactly what to do since the paths are so
        unpredictable.

        I've had some similar experiences with telephones. In the USA there
        is definitely a box with a ground wire at the house. I had frequent
        problems with nearby lightning strikes inducing spikes and these
        spikes ended up going thru my cordless phone base station thru its ac
        power supply and into the ac supply into ground. The process usually
        blew out the power supply in the base station. I live in Central
        Texas and the house practically sits on limestone so getting a good
        ground is difficult. I looked at the phone box and the ground wire
        was a pretty small 12 gauge wire buried for a few feet. What I did
        was to take a 4 ought stranded copper wire and ran it from the phone
        box over to the main ground where power comes in. As a bonus I also
        buried that ground wire along the way as best as I could. Since I did
        that no more problems. I think what happens now is that the lightning
        arrestor in that phone box directs the spike to the ground wire and
        now that the ground is more solid there is no voltage buildup on the
        phone wires as was happening before.

        I know that in some areas/countries the phone company or government
        will get downright anal about fooling with there phone stuff but since
        deregulation here they've lightned(pun intended) up a bit. They are
        more worried about the competition now.

        A faster wireless certainly would be a cleaner way to go.

        Don
      • don_wa5ngp
        Ken, I should have your comments about the Australia hookup more closely. The situation in usa is not much different. That ground wire on the connector block
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 1, 2007
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          Ken, I should have your comments about the Australia hookup more
          closely. The situation in usa is not much different. That ground
          wire on the connector block of the phone terminal is undoubtedly
          wired to some kind of lightning arrestor in the telephone terminal
          block so if a spike voltage occurs on the phone line it gets shunted
          to ground (hopefully).

          In the case of those wires coming down from the windsensor you
          essentially want to do the same thing to achieve protection although
          as you say its impossible sometimes so that's why the wireless is the
          safest way to go.

          That idea of using the rs232 to wireless scheme sounds like a good one
          since that gets the best of both worlds even if it means a few more $.

          regards
          Don
        • don_wa5ngp
          Stuart Tks for taking time out. I ll do a search in the archives to see what I can find. I suppose search on your id would be best. Now that I understand
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 7, 2007
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            Stuart
            Tks for taking time out. I'll do a search in the archives to see what
            I can find. I suppose search on your id would be best. Now that I
            understand what the signals are I have an idea to use a coaxial cable
            for the data signal to reduce noise problems. I have that problem of
            occasionaly getting very wierd readings and I suspect that its due to
            noise due to that telephone wire which is not even a twisted pair and
            obviously subject to noise.

            I have concluded that the little turbine sensor is great for light
            winds, <5mph, but once it gets over 10mph the turbine is already
            going so fast that getting it up to 20mph is almost impossible,
            essentialy what you are saying, non-linear. For me measuring those
            higher wind speads is more interesting than accuracy down low. I live
            in a tornado alley in central Texas so the interest is a bit more than
            casual. Also, pulling that CE line down to get readings every 2 sec
            would seem to ge a good thing if you are not on battery power.

            I don't think it would be difficult to electrically connect a cup type
            sensor but the readings on the LCD would be totally wrong unless the
            firmware were somehow tweaked. WUHU software could handle it thru a
            look up table although that would mean that you'd have to look on a pc
            for the wind speed. All in all that wouldn't be too bad.

            tks
            Don
          • don_wa5ngp
            Stuart, one more question please. When you are grounding the CE line is that the line between the LCD and the temp unit or between the temp unit and the wind
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 7, 2007
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              Stuart, one more question please.

              When you are grounding the CE line is that the line between the LCD
              and the temp unit or between the temp unit and the wind unit?

              Don-

              -- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, Stuart & Ruth Parker
              <s.parker@...> wrote:
              >
              > I use the WS2300-15 on my airfield weather stations.
              > Had to reverse engineer the protocol and data stream.
              > The /CE line is one of the 4 wires to the anemometer (VCC, GND, /CE,
              DATA).
              > Data stream is loooong serial block with start pattern, direction,
              speed, checksum.
              > I posted the info on this list some time back- must be in the
              archives somewhere.
              > If you can't find it I can send it to you- just a bit busy at
              present to pull up the info.
              > The turbine response is a bit non-linear and 'peaky'- it doesn't
              have the mechanical inertia of a cup anemometer.
              > I damp the response in software to avoid over-reporting of momentary
              gusts.
              >
              > Stuart Parker
              > www.sparxfly.co.nz
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: H. Smith
              > To: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:24 PM
              > Subject: Re: [LacrosseWS] Re: technical data on wind sensor for
              23** models
              >
              >
              > Stuart,
              >
              > Did someone completely decode the protocol? I remember there was
              work being done although I never heard if the they had anything
              functional?
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Stuart & Ruth Parker <s.parker@...> wrote:
              > If you hold the /CE line on the WS2300-15 permanently low, it will
              report at approx 2s intervals.
              >
              > Stuart Parker
              > www.sparxfly.co.nz
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: wuhu_software
              > To: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:41 AM
              > Subject: [LacrosseWS] Re: technical data on wind sensor for 23**
              models
              >
              > Don,
              >
              > As far as I know, the wind sensor is like a tiny embedded system
              that is
              > transmitting data serially to the remote thermo unit. That being the
              > case, there is probably no way to increase the reports as it is
              probably
              > hardcoded.
              >
              > You might want to consider using a seperate sensor for measuring
              speed.
              > You could continue to use the La Crosse wind direction from the
              original
              > sensor.
              >
              > Here is a unit that I am considering buying:
              >
              > http://www.inspeed.com/anemometers/Vortex_Wind_Sensor.asp
              > <http://www.inspeed.com/anemometers/Vortex_Wind_Sensor.asp>
              >
              > The only thing stopping me at this point is drilling yet another
              hole in
              > the wall to run the cable. This spring, I am hoping to put some
              type of
              > junction box in the wall from running cable, rj-11, and other wires.
              >
              > --- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, "don_wa5ngp"
              > <don_wa5ngp@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Does anyone have any pointers to technical data on the wind
              sensor for
              > > the 23** series? I've got a 2317 and I'd like to see if I could make
              > > another interface to the sensor so that I could get real time
              display
              > > for the wind direction and speed. Nothing like having meters that
              > > move in real time to make judgements on what the wind is doing.
              Those
              > > samples taken every 8 sec just don't do it for me.
              > >
              > > I'm tempted to take it appart and have a look, but its still under
              > > warranty and mostly works except for the occasionaly spurt of
              bad data
              > > that every one seems to experience. I've heard shielded cable helps
              > > that problem.
              > >
              > > tks
              > > Don
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
              > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Ken
              You ve done what the phone-protector gadgets you can buy do, Don. They plug into the mains outlet ( GPO for general purpose outlet, or powerpoint in Oz),
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 7, 2007
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                You've done what the phone-protector gadgets you can buy do, Don.
                They plug into the mains outlet ("GPO" for general purpose outlet, or
                "powerpoint" in Oz), and have arrestors from the phone wires to the
                ground lead.

                In Australia we a have an MEN system (mains earthed neutral), you
                probably do too. So the neutral power line is connected to ground at
                the house meter box, and at the power poles along the way.

                The problem with connecting a surge arrestor between a phone line and
                mains earth, is that if there is a surge on the mains earth lead (ie
                neutral), it will take out the phone circuit.
                An independent line to a stake at your house is much less likely to do that.

                We have a lot of limestone here in Oz too. The best way to reduce the
                resistance of a ground stake to earth is to keep the ground around it
                moist. Easy if you have a local septic tank, just direct some of the
                output to around the earth stake. Or if water is abundant, wet it
                occasionally.

                In most Australian states we are currently experiencing near-drought
                conditions, so casually watering a steel/copper 'plant' would be
                heavily frowned on!

                Ken.


                On 02/02/07, don_wa5ngp <don_wa5ngp@...> wrote:
                > I can't resist not kicking in my 2cents on the lightning. If you are
                > in an area prone to lightning I would agree with all the advice and
                > precautions especially if live somewhere like the Florida gulf coast.
                > Sometimes its hard to know exactly what to do since the paths are so
                > unpredictable.
                >
                > I've had some similar experiences with telephones. In the USA there
                > is definitely a box with a ground wire at the house. I had frequent
                > problems with nearby lightning strikes inducing spikes and these
                > spikes ended up going thru my cordless phone base station thru its ac
                > power supply and into the ac supply into ground. The process usually
                > blew out the power supply in the base station. I live in Central
                > Texas and the house practically sits on limestone so getting a good
                > ground is difficult. I looked at the phone box and the ground wire
                > was a pretty small 12 gauge wire buried for a few feet. What I did
                > was to take a 4 ought stranded copper wire and ran it from the phone
                > box over to the main ground where power comes in. As a bonus I also
                > buried that ground wire along the way as best as I could. Since I did
                > that no more problems. I think what happens now is that the lightning
                > arrestor in that phone box directs the spike to the ground wire and
                > now that the ground is more solid there is no voltage buildup on the
                > phone wires as was happening before.
                >
                > I know that in some areas/countries the phone company or government
                > will get downright anal about fooling with there phone stuff but since
                > deregulation here they've lightned(pun intended) up a bit. They are
                > more worried about the competition now.
                >
                > A faster wireless certainly would be a cleaner way to go.
                >
                > Don
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Stuart & Ruth Parker
                Hi Don- Sorry about the delay replying- got hit by lightning and it took out our phone and broadband connection. The interface I am talking about is the
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 14, 2007
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                  Hi Don-

                  Sorry about the delay replying- got hit by lightning and it took out our phone and broadband connection.

                  The interface I am talking about is the connection direct to the anemometer head itself.

                  Cheers,
                  Stuart Parker
                  ZK-JAW Airborne Edge 582
                  www.sparxfly.co.nz


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: don_wa5ngp
                  To: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:27 AM
                  Subject: [LacrosseWS] Re: technical data on wind sensor for 23** models


                  Stuart, one more question please.

                  When you are grounding the CE line is that the line between the LCD
                  and the temp unit or between the temp unit and the wind unit?

                  Don-

                  -- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, Stuart & Ruth Parker
                  <s.parker@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I use the WS2300-15 on my airfield weather stations.
                  > Had to reverse engineer the protocol and data stream.
                  > The /CE line is one of the 4 wires to the anemometer (VCC, GND, /CE,
                  DATA).
                  > Data stream is loooong serial block with start pattern, direction,
                  speed, checksum.
                  > I posted the info on this list some time back- must be in the
                  archives somewhere.
                  > If you can't find it I can send it to you- just a bit busy at
                  present to pull up the info.
                  > The turbine response is a bit non-linear and 'peaky'- it doesn't
                  have the mechanical inertia of a cup anemometer.
                  > I damp the response in software to avoid over-reporting of momentary
                  gusts.
                  >
                  > Stuart Parker
                  > www.sparxfly.co.nz
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: H. Smith
                  > To: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:24 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [LacrosseWS] Re: technical data on wind sensor for
                  23** models
                  >
                  >
                  > Stuart,
                  >
                  > Did someone completely decode the protocol? I remember there was
                  work being done although I never heard if the they had anything
                  functional?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > Stuart & Ruth Parker <s.parker@...> wrote:
                  > If you hold the /CE line on the WS2300-15 permanently low, it will
                  report at approx 2s intervals.
                  >
                  > Stuart Parker
                  > www.sparxfly.co.nz
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: wuhu_software
                  > To: Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:41 AM
                  > Subject: [LacrosseWS] Re: technical data on wind sensor for 23**
                  models
                  >
                  > Don,
                  >
                  > As far as I know, the wind sensor is like a tiny embedded system
                  that is
                  > transmitting data serially to the remote thermo unit. That being the
                  > case, there is probably no way to increase the reports as it is
                  probably
                  > hardcoded.
                  >
                  > You might want to consider using a seperate sensor for measuring
                  speed.
                  > You could continue to use the La Crosse wind direction from the
                  original
                  > sensor.
                  >
                  > Here is a unit that I am considering buying:
                  >
                  > http://www.inspeed.com/anemometers/Vortex_Wind_Sensor.asp
                  > <http://www.inspeed.com/anemometers/Vortex_Wind_Sensor.asp>
                  >
                  > The only thing stopping me at this point is drilling yet another
                  hole in
                  > the wall to run the cable. This spring, I am hoping to put some
                  type of
                  > junction box in the wall from running cable, rj-11, and other wires.
                  >
                  > --- In Lacrosse_weather_stations@yahoogroups.com, "don_wa5ngp"
                  > <don_wa5ngp@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Does anyone have any pointers to technical data on the wind
                  sensor for
                  > > the 23** series? I've got a 2317 and I'd like to see if I could make
                  > > another interface to the sensor so that I could get real time
                  display
                  > > for the wind direction and speed. Nothing like having meters that
                  > > move in real time to make judgements on what the wind is doing.
                  Those
                  > > samples taken every 8 sec just don't do it for me.
                  > >
                  > > I'm tempted to take it appart and have a look, but its still under
                  > > warranty and mostly works except for the occasionaly spurt of
                  bad data
                  > > that every one seems to experience. I've heard shielded cable helps
                  > > that problem.
                  > >
                  > > tks
                  > > Don
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                  > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • don_wa5ngp
                  tks Stuart, that s kinda what I expected. Sorry to hear about your lightning incident. I hope that the damage was manageable for you. I suppose that you will
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 16, 2007
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                    tks Stuart, that's kinda what I expected. Sorry to hear about your
                    lightning incident. I hope that the damage was manageable for you.

                    I suppose that you will have some real world advice for us on the
                    lightning subject.

                    best regards
                    Don
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