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RE: [LOTE-L] 4X games

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  • Rebecca and Peter Morzinski
    ... find ... other ... can ... SE3?) ... get ... look ... I had a look at some SE4 reviews. It looks good enough, but perhaps too complicated and
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 1, 2003
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      > I would say yes SE4 is better than Stars! however you will probably
      find
      > more players for Stars! because it was actually put in hastings and
      other
      > stores. SE4, IMHO, is better because if you and a friend want to, you
      can
      > customize some of the things in it, make new units, etc (or was that
      SE3?)
      > anyway, i would go for SE4, its a better pick all around. if you do
      get
      > it, let me know, we may have to play a round or two. I'm not absolutly
      > certain that it allows for email games, stars! does, but i'd have to
      look
      > at SE4 again to know for sure.


      I had a look at some SE4 reviews. It looks good enough, but perhaps too
      complicated and micromanagerial for my tastes.

      Pete
    • alarikf <alarikf@throneworld.com>
      I played stars! for a while, but found it unsatisfying for a variety of little reasons. DIdn t like the races, didn t like the micr managing, and, strangely
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 1, 2003
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        I played stars! for a while, but found it unsatisfying for a variety
        of little reasons. DIdn't like the races, didn't like the micr
        managing, and, strangely enough, I found it to be *TOO* unlimited. I
        mean, you could do pretty much anything in terms of sending units all
        over, setting radar sweeps (IIRC) was a PITA, and all the other stuff.
        THe interface was pretty cool though (although lacking in cool
        graphics) I think becuase it was first an X game for Unix...I guess
        just overall the "feel" of it was wrong to me. Much prefer SEVGold...
      • Christian Richards
        well, if you can, grab your CD, load it on your laptop, and while you have email access send a turn. Christian ... From: alarikf
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 1, 2003
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          well, if you can, grab your CD, load it on your laptop, and while you have
          email access send a turn.

          Christian
          -----Original Message-----
          From: alarikf <alarikf@...> [mailto:alarikf@...]
          Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 8:57 AM
          To: LOTE-L@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [LOTE-L] Re: 4X games


          I played stars! for a while, but found it unsatisfying for a variety
          of little reasons. DIdn't like the races, didn't like the micr
          managing, and, strangely enough, I found it to be *TOO* unlimited. I
          mean, you could do pretty much anything in terms of sending units all
          over, setting radar sweeps (IIRC) was a PITA, and all the other stuff.
          THe interface was pretty cool though (although lacking in cool
          graphics) I think becuase it was first an X game for Unix...I guess
          just overall the "feel" of it was wrong to me. Much prefer SEVGold...



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        • Christian Richards
          well, like alarik said, its far easier than Stars! For something less intensive, check out www.starknights.com its a nice little 4x game, except that to get
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 1, 2003
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            well, like alarik said, its far easier than Stars! For something less
            intensive, check out www.starknights.com its a nice little 4x game, except
            that to get good you have to make components before you can make your ships
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Rebecca and Peter Morzinski [mailto:prmorzinski@...]
            Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:42 AM
            To: LOTE-L@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [LOTE-L] 4X games


            > I would say yes SE4 is better than Stars! however you will probably
            find
            > more players for Stars! because it was actually put in hastings and
            other
            > stores. SE4, IMHO, is better because if you and a friend want to, you
            can
            > customize some of the things in it, make new units, etc (or was that
            SE3?)
            > anyway, i would go for SE4, its a better pick all around. if you do
            get
            > it, let me know, we may have to play a round or two. I'm not absolutly
            > certain that it allows for email games, stars! does, but i'd have to
            look
            > at SE4 again to know for sure.


            I had a look at some SE4 reviews. It looks good enough, but perhaps too
            complicated and micromanagerial for my tastes.

            Pete


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          • Charles K. Hurst
            ... Sa-weet! 10meg file downloaded in less than 20 seconds! It took my computer longer to transfer the temp download file to it s permanent location on my
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 1, 2003
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              At 09:48 AM 3/1/2003 -0700, you wrote:
              >well, like alarik said, its far easier than Stars! For something less
              >intensive, check out www.starknights.com its a nice little 4x game, except
              >that to get good you have to make components before you can make your ships

              Sa-weet! 10meg file downloaded in less than 20 seconds! It took my computer longer to transfer the temp download file to it's permanent location on my harddrive than it did to download it. Thank heavens I found that tweak site for my cable modem service a couple of weeks ago. I would recommend that anyone out there who hasn't tweaked their cable modem/MS Windows settings to optomize their download speed to find a tweak site for your service and do so! I've had cable internet for over a year and a half and this is the first time I've seen speeds of 500kb/s or better, all because of some stupid values Windows leaves at levels set for dialup and the techs who installed my cablemoden never tweaked.

              Charles
            • Charles K. Hurst
              ... It has build queues for planetary fascilities, so you finish a planet s development immediately after colonizing it by filling it s queue up with
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 1, 2003
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                At 07:42 AM 3/1/2003 -0500, you wrote:
                >I had a look at some SE4 reviews. It looks good enough, but perhaps too
                >complicated and micromanagerial for my tastes.

                It has build queues for planetary fascilities, so you "finish" a planet's development immediately after colonizing it by filling it's queue up with fascilities and troops, and if/once it has ship building capacity you can fill that up pretty full as well (you can make tons of purchases in advance and until you have the resources and the building space it will set as a future order). About the only thing I have to micromanage for a new colony after that initial minute or two of setting builds is it's tax/work rate (this may actually be from SEIII, but if you set the work rate lower the reproduction rate goes up, and then once the planet has built some production fascilities you can turn it back up to 100%, and you can easily access the information to make this decision for all your planets from the "list of all my planets" screen).

                If I remember right, it does lack some way to automatically send built ships to a location and global controls for upgrading fascilities (could be wrong, haven't played SEIV as much as SEIII), but such things as the game automatically scrolling through all units with movement capacity remaining (aka civ), planetary governors, and the ability to nest orders for ships (aka patrol, resupply at nearest, return to point a, patrol, repeat to set a bunch of ships to guarding a point in space), and I believe SEIV has a bunch of other tools that can be used to automate a lot of things.

                The ship building is fun, and once you've been in battles with a lot of enemy ships or at least scanned them to find out their components you have a battle simulator where you can test any bunch of your ships/designs against actual enemy ships/fleets and determine how well your designs/ships will do in what quantities, etc.

                Again, not sure for SEIV, but one of SEIII's weaknesses was that weapon buildout for ship designs fell into a few different possible paths for alien AI, so my fleets tended to have main battleships with best direct fire weapons in quantity (larger ships can at a slight size increase to the weapon mount it in a larger size with much greter destructive ability) and a little anti-missile/fighter capacity (main weapons can't hit fighters, allowing fighters to get in close and pound on other ships with lots of impunity), ships with tons of anti-missile/fighter capacity, large missile ships, a carrier group that stayed well to the rear, and a bunch of fighters. This combo would thrash just about any enemy AI fleet I ran into, as long as they didn't have a big tech lead. The ship design/combat system is pretty nice. Once you get over the learning curve and figure out how to set the rest up so it keeps out of your hair, the wormhole interconnections and resupply needs make it a limited enough combat situation that the game isn't overwhelming.

                Final thought is that if you start out with low tech levels it can be hard to figure out which roads to go down if you haven't played a lot before, and the game can seem pretty simple, but if you play okay and don't make any huge mistakes you'll have time to try researching stuff and figuring it out without having a huge penalty. But there is a lot of neat stuff once you gain certain techs, though it can take a while to get there, but wow once you do (and in setting up a game you can give everyone a certain variable # of techs to start with that human players get to select). Way way up the tech tree is the ability to make an engine that means your ships don't need to resupply. Also available is creating new wormholes, creating planets, creating suns, destroying planets/suns/wormholes/solar systems, anti-shield weapons, weapons that bypass shields (and new shields that block them - oh wow that was a bad game when I found that out, well advanced in the game one of the AI players got that weapon tech before I knew it exist and wasted a very nice fleet of mine before I could retool - all of a sudden deep into the game armor on ships became important, something I had thought useless from almost the get go once you get shield systems, but fortunately even ship armor has a really cool tech tree with armor that specializes against certain kinds of weapons, armor that is only destroyed by damage exceeding certain amounts, etc), etc, etc, etc - 500 tech levels for SEIII, I believe SEIV has a ton more and adds alternative tech trees, purchasable at startup (biological, mental, crystal, etc based tech trees). So tech paths you can't see in the research list until you get others to certain levels. For a while in SEIII I couldn't figure out why anyone would research chemistry for a better medical center or physics for no apparent gain, but once I had some spare tech to invest in them and gained some levels - wow! It is very cool how SE tech allows you to recreate many cool things from the domain of sci-fi.

                So it can get complicated later, but if you start out at low tech levels and work your way up naturally you are gradually introduced to everything at a slower rate so it isn't overwhelming at first, and taking the time to figure out and use the automation tools available can prevent a lot of micromanagement later on when your empire gets bigger.

                Some interesting things that only come with experience revolve around relative ship combat speeds versus missile speeds, fire rates, and missile range which can make certain stages/AI opponent battles into elaborate dances where your fleet dashes in, launches missiles and then runs away for several turns until his missiles run out of fuel, repeat until you've obliterated enough (this dance goes away once you get good point-defense and researched a bigger ship to put them in so you have a mobile anti-missile platform that can protect most of your fleet or let your direct fire guys get in close enough to shoot).

                In SEIII I loved getting the Wave Gun way up there on the tech table and mounting it as a spinal mount weapon in the battleship frame with no-resupply-needed engines (can you say Starblazers? Yes you can! :) and big honking shields with shield regenerators, and then taking a fleet of those bad boys deep into enemy territory destroying his planets as I went (it's just such a pain to build transports, design ground troops, drop them on an enemy planet to take it over, etc, I'd rather burn them all and send in my own colonizers *grin* - but it does take a lot of time and effort to develop a planet, and I believe you can pick up some bonuses for conquering planets in SEIV instead of wasting them).

                Hmm, combat in the game tends to be pro-offensive (you want your fleets in his systems hunting his ships/fleets before they can move past you and destroying his planets, rather than trying to stop his fleets from entering your systems), with wormholes being the only natural choke points (though getting minefields allows one to turn them into death traps for enemy fleets advancing into your turf [God bless minesweepers, once you run into an AI that loves minefields then minesweepers and lots of them will become a staple part of your fleets :], or deploying tons of weapon satellites right around the wormhole exit, there is always that moment of terror when you send your fleet through the first uncontrolled wormhole deep in enemy territory where he's had a chance to build up, or the even minor terror early on of moving a ship through a wormhole and having the combat screen come up and not knowing what you faced until you chose combat (or run away, run away is a very very good option in these situations ^^).

                Charles
              • alarikf <alarikf@throneworld.com>
                Some of my favorite things about SEIV: the way it models supply and support and supply lines works very well and is almost exactly how I always personally
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 1, 2003
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                  Some of my favorite things about SEIV:




                  the way it models supply and support and supply lines works very well
                  and is almost exactly how I always personally envisioned it.




                  The cool tech trees that you never see, unless something very weird
                  happens, but that you get if you have certain racial characteristics.
                  Charles, it sounds like you never encountered any of the Religious
                  Tech Trees, eh? Those are veyr intense to deal with...




                  How hard it is to REALLY keep a massive fleet up and running




                  the high amount of automation - practically anything can be automated
                  in SEIV....




                  the Mods are simply incredible...




                  the AI is smart as heck at the higher levels, and doesn't cheat,
                  AFAIK.




                  but, none of these in singular is as attractive to me as the whole
                  effect which is: I can set up a SEIV game with 255 solar systems, all
                  16 (or so) races and up to something like 20 minor races, and play a
                  game that will last for literally months of real time, and at every
                  single turn in it I really had to be on my toes and make sure I made
                  the right decisions and...when I play this type of campaign at the
                  highest levels of difficulty I still have not yet won, and I think I'm
                  pretty good at these things. There is an inevitable point in MOOII
                  where you know that there is no need to play any longer, since it is
                  clear no one has a chance of stopping you. I have never felt that in
                  SEIV, and I love the fact that I have to keep thinking about it
                  contanstly. In fact, the closest I ever came to winning a 256 system,
                  many hundreds of turns game I am convinced came down, at one point to
                  a single battle and even, within that battle a single volley. My ships
                  didn't hit with that volley, the Romulans went on to wint the battle,
                  and eventually the war. It was touch and go there for another couple
                  months of real-time but I eventually came to beleive that it was that
                  single damned volley..sigh. How pathetic is it to re-live past
                  solitaire computer games one has played? obviously its time to get
                  another beer...










                  --- In LOTE-L@yahoogroups.com, "Charles K. Hurst" <charlesh@t...>
                  wrote:


                  > At 07:42 AM 3/1/2003 -0500, you wrote:


                  > >I had a look at some SE4 reviews. It looks good enough, but
                  perhaps too


                  > >complicated and micromanagerial for my tastes.


                  >


                  > It has build queues for planetary fascilities, so you "finish" a
                  planet's development immediately after colonizing it by filling it's
                  queue up with fascilities and troops, and if/once it has ship building
                  capacity you can fill that up pretty full as well (you can make tons
                  of purchases in advance and until you have the resources and the
                  building space it will set as a future order). About the only thing I
                  have to micromanage for a new colony after that initial minute or two
                  of setting builds is it's tax/work rate (this may actually be from
                  SEIII, but if you set the work rate lower the reproduction rate goes
                  up, and then once the planet has built some production fascilities you
                  can turn it back up to 100%, and you can easily access the information
                  to make this decision for all your planets from the "list of all my
                  planets" screen).


                  >


                  > If I remember right, it does lack some way to automatically send
                  built ships to a location and global controls for upgrading
                  fascilities (could be wrong, haven't played SEIV as much as SEIII),
                  but such things as the game automatically scrolling through all units
                  with movement capacity remaining (aka civ), planetary governors, and
                  the ability to nest orders for ships (aka patrol, resupply at nearest,
                  return to point a, patrol, repeat to set a bunch of ships to guarding
                  a point in space), and I believe SEIV has a bunch of other tools that
                  can be used to automate a lot of things.


                  >


                  > The ship building is fun, and once you've been in battles with a lot
                  of enemy ships or at least scanned them to find out their components
                  you have a battle simulator where you can test any bunch of your
                  ships/designs against actual enemy ships/fleets and determine how well
                  your designs/ships will do in what quantities, etc.


                  >


                  > Again, not sure for SEIV, but one of SEIII's weaknesses was that
                  weapon buildout for ship designs fell into a few different possible
                  paths for alien AI, so my fleets tended to have main battleships with
                  best direct fire weapons in quantity (larger ships can at a slight
                  size increase to the weapon mount it in a larger size with much greter
                  destructive ability) and a little anti-missile/fighter capacity (main
                  weapons can't hit fighters, allowing fighters to get in close and
                  pound on other ships with lots of impunity), ships with tons of
                  anti-missile/fighter capacity, large missile ships, a carrier group
                  that stayed well to the rear, and a bunch of fighters. This combo
                  would thrash just about any enemy AI fleet I ran into, as long as they
                  didn't have a big tech lead. The ship design/combat system is pretty
                  nice. Once you get over the learning curve and figure out how to set
                  the rest up so it keeps out of your hair, the wormhole
                  interconnections and resupply needs make it a limited enough combat
                  situation that the game isn't overwhelming.


                  >


                  > Final thought is that if you start out with low tech levels it can
                  be hard to figure out which roads to go down if you haven't played a
                  lot before, and the game can seem pretty simple, but if you play okay
                  and don't make any huge mistakes you'll have time to try researching
                  stuff and figuring it out without having a huge penalty. But there is
                  a lot of neat stuff once you gain certain techs, though it can take a
                  while to get there, but wow once you do (and in setting up a game you
                  can give everyone a certain variable # of techs to start with that
                  human players get to select). Way way up the tech tree is the ability
                  to make an engine that means your ships don't need to resupply. Also
                  available is creating new wormholes, creating planets, creating suns,
                  destroying planets/suns/wormholes/solar systems, anti-shield weapons,
                  weapons that bypass shields (and new shields that block them - oh wow
                  that was a bad game when I found that out, well advanced in the game
                  one of the AI players got that weapon tech before I knew it exist and
                  wasted a very nice fleet of mine before I could retool - all of a
                  sudden deep into the game armor on ships became important, something I
                  had thought useless from almost the get go once you get shield
                  systems, but fortunately even ship armor has a really cool tech tree
                  with armor that specializes against certain kinds of weapons, armor
                  that is only destroyed by damage exceeding certain amounts, etc), etc,
                  etc, etc - 500 tech levels for SEIII, I believe SEIV has a ton more
                  and adds alternative tech trees, purchasable at startup (biological,
                  mental, crystal, etc based tech trees). So tech paths you can't see
                  in the research list until you get others to certain levels. For a
                  while in SEIII I couldn't figure out why anyone would research
                  chemistry for a better medical center or physics for no apparent gain,
                  but once I had some spare tech to invest in them and gained some
                  levels - wow! It is very cool how SE tech allows you to recreate many
                  cool things from the domain of sci-fi.


                  >


                  > So it can get complicated later, but if you start out at low tech
                  levels and work your way up naturally you are gradually introduced to
                  everything at a slower rate so it isn't overwhelming at first, and
                  taking the time to figure out and use the automation tools available
                  can prevent a lot of micromanagement later on when your empire gets
                  bigger.


                  >


                  > Some interesting things that only come with experience revolve
                  around relative ship combat speeds versus missile speeds, fire rates,
                  and missile range which can make certain stages/AI opponent battles
                  into elaborate dances where your fleet dashes in, launches missiles
                  and then runs away for several turns until his missiles run out of
                  fuel, repeat until you've obliterated enough (this dance goes away
                  once you get good point-defense and researched a bigger ship to put
                  them in so you have a mobile anti-missile platform that can protect
                  most of your fleet or let your direct fire guys get in close enough to
                  shoot).


                  >


                  > In SEIII I loved getting the Wave Gun way up there on the tech table
                  and mounting it as a spinal mount weapon in the battleship frame with
                  no-resupply-needed engines (can you say Starblazers? Yes you can! :)
                  and big honking shields with shield regenerators, and then taking a
                  fleet of those bad boys deep into enemy territory destroying his
                  planets as I went (it's just such a pain to build transports, design
                  ground troops, drop them on an enemy planet to take it over, etc, I'd
                  rather burn them all and send in my own colonizers *grin* - but it
                  does take a lot of time and effort to develop a planet, and I believe
                  you can pick up some bonuses for conquering planets in SEIV instead of
                  wasting them).


                  >


                  > Hmm, combat in the game tends to be pro-offensive (you want your
                  fleets in his systems hunting his ships/fleets before they can move
                  past you and destroying his planets, rather than trying to stop his
                  fleets from entering your systems), with wormholes being the only
                  natural choke points (though getting minefields allows one to turn
                  them into death traps for enemy fleets advancing into your turf [God
                  bless minesweepers, once you run into an AI that loves minefields then
                  minesweepers and lots of them will become a staple part of your fleets
                  :], or deploying tons of weapon satellites right around the wormhole
                  exit, there is always that moment of terror when you send your fleet
                  through the first uncontrolled wormhole deep in enemy territory where
                  he's had a chance to build up, or the even minor terror early on of
                  moving a ship through a wormhole and having the combat screen come up
                  and not knowing what you faced until you chose combat (or run away,
                  run away is a very very good option in these situations ^^).


                  >


                  > Charles
                • Rebecca and Peter Morzinski
                  I downloaded Space Empires IV Gold demo. It s great. I played it until 4:40 am last night (this morning?). I ll have to buy a copy and play a game or two
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
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                    I downloaded Space Empires IV Gold demo. It's great. I played it until
                    4:40 am last night (this morning?).

                    I'll have to buy a copy and play a game or two before I step into the
                    pond with you sharks.

                    Pete


                    > Some of my favorite things about SEIV:
                    >
                    > the way it models supply and support and supply lines works very well
                    > and is almost exactly how I always personally envisioned it.
                    >
                    > The cool tech trees that you never see, unless something very weird
                    > happens, but that you get if you have certain racial characteristics.
                    > Charles, it sounds like you never encountered any of the Religious
                    > Tech Trees, eh? Those are veyr intense to deal with...
                    >
                    > How hard it is to REALLY keep a massive fleet up and running
                    >
                    > the high amount of automation - practically anything can be automated
                    > in SEIV....
                    >
                    > the Mods are simply incredible...
                    >
                    > the AI is smart as heck at the higher levels, and doesn't cheat,
                    > AFAIK.
                    >
                    > but, none of these in singular is as attractive to me as the whole
                    > effect which is: I can set up a SEIV game with 255 solar systems, all
                    > 16 (or so) races and up to something like 20 minor races, and play a
                    > game that will last for literally months of real time, and at every
                    > single turn in it I really had to be on my toes and make sure I made
                    > the right decisions and...when I play this type of campaign at the
                    > highest levels of difficulty I still have not yet won, and I think I'm
                    > pretty good at these things. There is an inevitable point in MOOII
                    > where you know that there is no need to play any longer, since it is
                    > clear no one has a chance of stopping you. I have never felt that in
                    > SEIV, and I love the fact that I have to keep thinking about it
                    > contanstly. In fact, the closest I ever came to winning a 256 system,
                    > many hundreds of turns game I am convinced came down, at one point to
                    > a single battle and even, within that battle a single volley. My ships
                    > didn't hit with that volley, the Romulans went on to wint the battle,
                    > and eventually the war. It was touch and go there for another couple
                    > months of real-time but I eventually came to beleive that it was that
                    > single damned volley..sigh. How pathetic is it to re-live past
                    > solitaire computer games one has played? obviously its time to get
                    > another beer...
                  • Edgar Webley
                    Yeah whoever posted that link to the SEIV website can go to hell!! Now that I have the demo I cant get sh!t done! I cant wait to order the real thing! :) This
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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                      Yeah whoever posted that link to the SEIV website can go to hell!!
                      Now that I have the demo I cant get sh!t done! I cant wait to order
                      the real thing! :) This game is hands down way better than MOO3.


                      --- In LOTE-L@yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca and Peter Morzinski"
                      <prmorzinski@h...> wrote:
                      > I downloaded Space Empires IV Gold demo. It's great. I played it
                      until
                      > 4:40 am last night (this morning?).
                      >
                      > I'll have to buy a copy and play a game or two before I step into
                      the
                      > pond with you sharks.
                      >
                      > Pete
                      >
                      >
                      > > Some of my favorite things about SEIV:
                      > >
                      > > the way it models supply and support and supply lines works very
                      well
                      > > and is almost exactly how I always personally envisioned it.
                      > >
                      > > The cool tech trees that you never see, unless something very
                      weird
                      > > happens, but that you get if you have certain racial
                      characteristics.
                      > > Charles, it sounds like you never encountered any of the
                      Religious
                      > > Tech Trees, eh? Those are veyr intense to deal with...
                      > >
                      > > How hard it is to REALLY keep a massive fleet up and running
                      > >
                      > > the high amount of automation - practically anything can be
                      automated
                      > > in SEIV....
                      > >
                      > > the Mods are simply incredible...
                      > >
                      > > the AI is smart as heck at the higher levels, and doesn't cheat,
                      > > AFAIK.
                      > >
                      > > but, none of these in singular is as attractive to me as the
                      whole
                      > > effect which is: I can set up a SEIV game with 255 solar
                      systems, all
                      > > 16 (or so) races and up to something like 20 minor races, and
                      play a
                      > > game that will last for literally months of real time, and at
                      every
                      > > single turn in it I really had to be on my toes and make sure I
                      made
                      > > the right decisions and...when I play this type of campaign at
                      the
                      > > highest levels of difficulty I still have not yet won, and I
                      think I'm
                      > > pretty good at these things. There is an inevitable point in
                      MOOII
                      > > where you know that there is no need to play any longer, since
                      it is
                      > > clear no one has a chance of stopping you. I have never felt
                      that in
                      > > SEIV, and I love the fact that I have to keep thinking about it
                      > > contanstly. In fact, the closest I ever came to winning a 256
                      system,
                      > > many hundreds of turns game I am convinced came down, at one
                      point to
                      > > a single battle and even, within that battle a single volley. My
                      ships
                      > > didn't hit with that volley, the Romulans went on to wint the
                      battle,
                      > > and eventually the war. It was touch and go there for another
                      couple
                      > > months of real-time but I eventually came to beleive that it was
                      that
                      > > single damned volley..sigh. How pathetic is it to re-live past
                      > > solitaire computer games one has played? obviously its time to
                      get
                      > > another beer...
                    • Christian Richards
                      Hey, got Space Empires 4 today (YAY finally) so just drop me a line when you want to start a game. I m willing to play anyone. Christian [Non-text portions of
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 12, 2003
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                        Hey, got Space Empires 4 today (YAY finally) so just drop me a line when you
                        want to start a game. I'm willing to play anyone.

                        Christian


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