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Re: [LINUX_Newbies] Re: Help choosing the right Linux Distro

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  • J
    ... For those of us who no longer wear the Red Fedora, there is apt-file like so: bladernr@klaatu:~$ apt-file search /lib32/libdrm.so.2 ia32-libs:
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 30, 2010
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      On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 01:20, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
      > On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 05:47:13AM -0000, dbneeley wrote:
      >
      >
      >>
      >> I do agree that for most new users the Debian-based distributions tend to be less of a problem than those still clinging to the RPM system. Although Red Hat has claimed for a few years now that they are working on a replacement for RPM that handles dependencies better, so far nothing has been forthcoming.
      >>
      >
      > Not arguing for or against Deb based vs. RH based.  However, yum is,
      > IMHO, probably comparable to apt as far as being a front end for rpm as
      > apt is to dpkg.  It handles dependencies, gives you ways to work around
      > them, and has one nice featuer that may or may not be in apt, the
      > "provides"--for example, if you try to build a package and get
      > libwhatever.so.5-1/2 not found, you can run
      >
      > yum provides */libwhatever.so.5-1/2.
      >
      > It will then search its database, and come back whatever packages may
      > provide this particular library.
      >
      > At any rate, at this time, I'd have to say that yum does do quite well
      > at handling dependencies.  Not perfect, it can have problems here and
      > there, but of course, so can apt.

      For those of us who no longer wear the Red Fedora, there is apt-file like so:

      bladernr@klaatu:~$ apt-file search /lib32/libdrm.so.2
      ia32-libs: /lib32/libdrm.so.2
      ia32-libs: /lib32/libdrm.so.2.4.0

      Though you do have to install apt-file as it's not part of the default
      apt tool set.




      >
      > --
      > Scott Robbins
      > PGP keyID EB3467D6
      > ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
      > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
      >
      > Buffy: I lost a friend tonight and I may lose more! The whole
      > world may be sucked into hell, and you want my help 'cause your
      > girlfriend's a big ho?! Let me take this opportunity to NOT care!
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this list, please email LINUX_Newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com & you will be removed.Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Scott
      ... Ah, very handy. Thank you Jeff. -- Scott Robbins PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 1, 2010
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        On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 01:44:34AM -0500, J wrote:

        > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 01:20, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
        > > On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 05:47:13AM -0000, dbneeley wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >>
        > > It handles dependencies, gives you ways to work around
        > > them, and has one nice featuer that may or may not be in apt, the
        > > "provides"--for example, if you try to build a package and get
        > > libwhatever.so.5-1/2 not found, you can run
        > >
        > > yum provides */libwhatever.so.5-1/2.
        > >
        > > It will then search its database, and come back whatever packages may
        > > provide this particular library.
        > >
        > For those of us who no longer wear the Red Fedora, there is apt-file like so:
        >
        > bladernr@klaatu:~$ apt-file search /lib32/libdrm.so.2
        > ia32-libs: /lib32/libdrm.so.2
        > ia32-libs: /lib32/libdrm.so.2.4.0
        >
        Ah, very handy. Thank you Jeff.

        --
        Scott Robbins
        PGP keyID EB3467D6
        ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
        gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

        Buffy: You sound like Mr. Initiative! 'Demons bad,
        people good.'
        Riley: Something wrong with that theorem?
      • Roy
        I agree about yum being much improved and on par with apt. The biggest problem with rpm distros is there is no uniformity. SuSE uses Yast/ Zypper, Fedora uses
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 1, 2010
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          I agree about yum being much improved and on par with apt. The biggest
          problem with rpm distros is there is no uniformity. SuSE uses Yast/ Zypper,
          Fedora uses Smart and Yum, RedHat uses up2date, Mandriva uses urpmi, but
          last I heard they were switching to something else. To confuse things
          further PCLOS uses apt-rpm and Synaptic. Whereas all Debian distros use apt
          and dpkg. The commands are the same across all Debian based distros. That
          makes rpm harder to get to like and learn.

          I will add to that my recent experience with F14. I had several package
          managers installed, Packagekit, Yumex, Smart and Add /Remove and I could not
          get all of them to work from the same database. I would update in Yumex and
          then Packagekit would say it could not find the database and update which I
          had done just seconds before in Yumex. So I would rebuild the database but
          it would still only work in Packagekit and another one would break. At no
          point could I get all four to work. Not only that it would update the
          package list twice, before I installed an application and afterwards, before
          I had a chance to quit Yumex. It seems very touchy and antiquated to my
          thinking.

          Presto seems like a good idea, but it does not save any time because it
          spends much time calculating changes and testing them when it could be
          installing. It does save bandwidth if that is important to you. It may sound
          like I am being harsh, but I will save that for Yast which I have no use
          for. Yast tries to resolve dependencies and presents the user with choices
          and if the user is experienced it can be good, but if the user chooses
          wrongly it can destabilise the whole system.

          The advantage of Debian over RPM used to be stability, but as mentioned RPM
          is stable now. The advantage now is that Debian is more uniform and simpler
          to use. It also has far more packages because Debian maintains such huge
          repos. The best RPM distro in my experience has roughly half the number of
          packages that Ubuntu has.

          When there is so much talk about having one package manager to rule them
          all, it seems that RPM must first get its act together and agree on some
          standards before they could hope to present RPM as a viable alternative to
          DEB.

          Roy

          Using Kubuntu 10.10, 64-bit
          Location: Canada


          On 1 December 2010 06:26, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 01:44:34AM -0500, J wrote:
          >
          > > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 01:20, Scott <scottro@...<scottro%40nyc.rr.com>>
          > wrote:
          > > > On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 05:47:13AM -0000, dbneeley wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >>
          > > > It handles dependencies, gives you ways to work around
          > > > them, and has one nice featuer that may or may not be in apt, the
          > > > "provides"--for example, if you try to build a package and get
          > > > libwhatever.so.5-1/2 not found, you can run
          > > >
          > > > yum provides */libwhatever.so.5-1/2.
          > > >
          > > > It will then search its database, and come back whatever packages may
          > > > provide this particular library.
          > > >
          > > For those of us who no longer wear the Red Fedora, there is apt-file like
          > so:
          > >
          > > bladernr@klaatu:~$ apt-file search /lib32/libdrm.so.2
          > > ia32-libs: /lib32/libdrm.so.2
          > > ia32-libs: /lib32/libdrm.so.2.4.0
          > >
          > Ah, very handy. Thank you Jeff.
          >
          > --
          > Scott Robbins
          > PGP keyID EB3467D6
          > ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
          > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
          >
          > Buffy: You sound like Mr. Initiative! 'Demons bad,
          > people good.'
          > Riley: Something wrong with that theorem?
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Roy
          You might want to look at Arch which gives you just a basic working system and you set the rest up from the bash prompt. It is a rolling release and very good.
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 1, 2010
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            You might want to look at Arch which gives you just a basic working system
            and you set the rest up from the bash prompt. It is a rolling release and
            very good. That way you get to learn how Linux works. Then if you get even
            more ambitious you can try Slackware, Gentoo and Linux From Scratch. Linux
            is the best when it comes to choice.

            Roy

            Using Kubuntu 10.10, 64-bit
            Location: Canada


            On 30 November 2010 07:44, rkzbos <jackrossini@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > I want to thank everyone that responded to my post here. Because their is a
            > wealth of information to read, I'll just reply back to
            > dbneeley and everyone with this post.
            >
            > I wish to explain a little bit of my situation as a Linux Newbie: Back in
            > the early 1990's, I started out with a 386 PC, DOS 6.? WIN 3.22 and I was
            > amazed and fascinated with the DOS command line and I felt as if I was
            > really using a computer (Too bad Atari 2600 didn't have that when I was
            > younger).
            >
            > Shortly after Windows kept forcing their upgrades, for years I felt that I
            > was in some kind of a strange computer dilemma. Not only was it very
            > difficult for me to keep up with upgrading computers hardware, software and
            > to another Windows OS, but all of the time that I put into trying to
            > learning DOS -which was no longer important or supported.
            >
            > As time went by, I learned from the popular belief that "people who use
            > Linux, have more control over their computers, are able to do more with them
            > and are not bombarded with the force upgrades, pop-up and commercialism".
            > "The only problem is that it's harder to learn".
            >
            > At some point I came across an older computer book and I then became
            > interested in vintage computers such as the Commodore 64/128 and the Apple
            > iie and things such as BBS's, USENET, Majordomo and Telnets. It was to my
            > surprise that their are user groups out there today who are dedicated to
            > these systems and older machines.
            >
            > About a year ago, I was reading about Unix and learned that it came with
            > all Linux destro. At this point I was dumb-founded to realized that Linux
            > must be a much better OS system, because it has the best of both worlds, the
            > past and the future.
            >
            > After browsing through different Linux magazines at a store, I wasn't sure
            > which one to purchased. So I then purchased one that came with a Ubuntu 9.04
            > Jaunty Jackalope Live cd (and installer). Once I got home, I followed the
            > instructions and I installed the cd into two of my Dell computers. Both
            > computers already had XP in them. -Which both now have dual OS's on them. (I
            > use one of the computers as a main computer which I also go online with and
            > the 2nd computer I use as a back up).
            >
            > After the installation, I went through the desktop menu of Ubuntu to check
            > the different programs and spent a lot of time studying Unix along with my
            > Linux Bible and Linux for Dummies books.
            >
            > I wasn't able to get Ubuntu to connect online because it can not find my US
            > Robotics external dial up modem. However, it's not such a big deal right now
            > because hopefully sometime next year I hope to have either DSL or a cable
            > modem.
            >
            > Shortly after from the time I installed Ubuntu 9.04, Ubuntu already came
            > out with an upgrade. This made me a little nervous.
            >
            > I guess what I am looking for in a Linux destro is a command line such as
            > BASH and to try to connect it online and explore the Linux world to learn
            > more.
            >
            > Thank you
            > rkzbos
            >
            > --- In LINUX_Newbies@yahoogroups.com <LINUX_Newbies%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "dbneeley" <dbneeley@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > First, I wouldn't be so worried about upgrades. I presently use the
            > latest release of Kubuntu--and it has updates nearly every day, since Linux
            > and the thousands of projects change rapidly. Most of those changes are
            > actually improvements, and the functionality continues to improve through
            > the efforts of tens of thousands of developers.
            > >
            > > Also, if you set up the distribution you select with a separate /home
            > partition, upgrading becomes extremely simple.
            > >
            > > As for distributions--there are some who don't have major upgrade
            > schedules--but they generally have continuous updates.
            > >
            > > If you are like most newcomers, you will tend to want a distribution at
            > first that is easy to use in moving from Windows. Later, as your knowledge
            > matures, most folks want to branch out a little and try new versions.
            > >
            > > Many on this list seem drawn to Mint. I think another one that a newcomer
            > may like is called Simply Mepis, which has just released a major new
            > version.
            > >
            > > Much depends, too, upon what hardware you will be running it on. If it's
            > an older box with comparatively fewer hardware resources, you may prefer a
            > lightweight distribution that will run optimally on it. By contrast, if you
            > have a newer machine with plenty of RAM, you may be perfectly happy with one
            > of the more elaborate ones.
            > >
            > > Fortunately, since most distributions today come in Live CD variants, you
            > can try a few out easily enough and choose what appeals to you the most.
            > >
            > > The majority of Linux users will be partial to the distribution they are
            > presently using--"ease of use" is largely a matter of what you are used to,
            > after all.
            > >
            > > Personally, I created an extra partition when I set up my machine that I
            > can use for the root filesystem of a second distribution. That way, I can
            > experiment without nuking the primary one I use most often. One of my
            > projects today, in fact, is to try yet another one--but it is an early
            > development version of a new distro called Bodhi that uses the Enlightenment
            > window manager--but it is far from feature complete, so I would not want to
            > have it as my only distribution.
            > >
            > > Assuming a relatively recent machine, to me your first choice should be
            > the primary windowing system you want to use. The "big two" are Gnome and
            > KDE, but there are some appealing options such as LXDE and XFCE, for
            > example.
            > >
            > > Although it has a six-month major release cycle, the various Ubuntu
            > variants have some advantages for new Linux users, I believe. These include
            > not only the official Cononical versions but also Ubuntu-based ones such as
            > Mint and quite a few others.
            > >
            > > Finally, although major versions do upgrade in the Ubuntu universe, there
            > is no reason you must upgrade each time if you choose not to. I know several
            > people who use their "Long Term Support" versions and only do a major
            > version upgrade when a new LTS variant comes out.
            > >
            > > David
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In LINUX_Newbies@yahoogroups.com <LINUX_Newbies%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "rkzbos" <jackrossini@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I am interested in learning and running Linux on my PC, but their are
            > many choices to choose from when if comes to which Linux version or Distro
            > to get.
            > > >
            > > > To help narrow it down to my needs, I need a Linux OS for general use
            > and that it doesn't causes me to up grade every 6 months.
            > > > Can someone help explain to me or find information about the
            > differences of the Linux Distros.
            > > >
            > > > rkzbos
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scott
            ... Smart isn t the default, and one has to go to some effort to set it up. RedHat, and its clones, Oracle, CentOS, Scientific, and of course, Fedora, which is
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 1, 2010
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              On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 08:25:58AM -0500, Roy wrote:
              > I agree about yum being much improved and on par with apt. The biggest

              > problem with rpm distros is there is no uniformity. SuSE uses Yast/ Zypper,
              > Fedora uses Smart and Yum, RedHat uses up2date, Mandriva uses urpmi, but
              > last I heard they were switching to something else. To confuse things
              > further PCLOS uses apt-rpm and Synaptic. Whereas all Debian distros use apt
              > and dpkg. The commands are the same across all Debian based distros. That
              > makes rpm harder to get to like and learn.

              Smart isn't the default, and one has to go to some effort to set it up.
              RedHat, and its clones, Oracle, CentOS, Scientific, and of course,
              Fedora, which is no longer a clone, use yum.

              I haven't used the others in awhile--I do know that their packages
              aren't usually compatible with each other, and I don't know how
              difference the uses of yum are between them.

              >
              > I will add to that my recent experience with F14. I had several package
              > managers installed, Packagekit, Yumex, Smart and Add /Remove and I could not
              > get all of them to work from the same database. I would update in Yumex and
              > then Packagekit would say it could not find the database and update which I
              > had done just seconds before in Yumex. So I would rebuild the database but
              > it would still only work in Packagekit and another one would break. At no
              > point could I get all four to work. Not only that it would update the
              > package list twice, before I installed an application and afterwards, before
              > I had a chance to quit Yumex. It seems very touchy and antiquated to my
              > thinking.


              Yumex has, unfortunately, become almost defunct in favor of packagekit.
              Packagekit, may, one day, be something good, at present, its developers
              have done things such as allow all installs and updates with no
              authentication---this slipped by people because the majority use command
              line and also because, in testing, packages are unsigned and it only
              applied to signed packages. After this made the front page of slashdot,
              they changed it, but he left it so that upgrading required no password,
              which made it into RH beta. I think it was Jeff's mocking this to his
              friend at RH that got it fixed.

              >
              > Presto seems like a good idea, but it does not save any time because it
              > spends much time calculating changes and testing them when it could be
              > installing. It does save bandwidth if that is important to you.

              True, it doesn't save time, due to the rebuild, however, bandwidth is
              the aim, I believe. On the other hand, these days, if you're on
              limited bandwidth or dialup, not sure if Fedora would be the distro with
              its frequently upgrades.

              I use it because for the majority of us in the IT industry, the jobs are
              RH based, and at my age, will probably stay that way till I retired.
              Your assessment doesn' sound overly harsh to me.

              > The advantage of Debian over RPM used to be stability, but as mentioned RPM
              > is stable now. The advantage now is that Debian is more uniform and simpler
              > to use. It also has far more packages because Debian maintains such huge
              > repos. The best RPM distro in my experience has roughly half the number of
              > packages that Ubuntu has.


              If one combines rpmforge and a few other 3rd party ones, I'm not sure.
              RedHat itself, aimed at the enterprise, has relatively few, even when
              compared to Fedora.

              > When there is so much talk about having one package manager to rule them
              > all, it seems that RPM must first get its act together and agree on some
              > standards before they could hope to present RPM as a viable alternative to
              > DEB.

              I think the eventual aim of PackageKit is to be able to handle both and
              any other formats as well. I don't see too many religious arguments
              over it, nor do I see RH trying to make themselves the standard, at
              least in the everyday, vs. the business, world.

              --
              Scott Robbins
              PGP keyID EB3467D6
              ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
              gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

              Xander: Hi, for those of you who just tuned in,
              everyone here is a crazy person.
            • dbneeley
              The standard application manager for Kubuntu is KPackageKit, which I abor. As for RPM, please someone correct me if I m wrong--but last I heard the RPM
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 2, 2010
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                The standard application manager for Kubuntu is KPackageKit, which I abor.

                As for RPM, please someone correct me if I'm wrong--but last I heard the RPM resource database kept on your system lacks sufficient discrimination when it comes to required dependencies--that was originally a major reason it was to be completely rewritten. Has this been done?

                Regardless of the front end used, if installing a new app creates dependency issues for ones already installed, that would seem a very bad idea...and before I went to Debian-based distros, that happened to me more than once on both SuSE and Red Hat. Has this been fixed?

                David


                --- In LINUX_Newbies@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 08:25:58AM -0500, Roy wrote:
                > > I agree about yum being much improved and on par with apt. The biggest
                >
                > > problem with rpm distros is there is no uniformity. SuSE uses Yast/ Zypper,
                > > Fedora uses Smart and Yum, RedHat uses up2date, Mandriva uses urpmi, but
                > > last I heard they were switching to something else. To confuse things
                > > further PCLOS uses apt-rpm and Synaptic. Whereas all Debian distros use apt
                > > and dpkg. The commands are the same across all Debian based distros. That
                > > makes rpm harder to get to like and learn.
                >
                > Smart isn't the default, and one has to go to some effort to set it up.
                > RedHat, and its clones, Oracle, CentOS, Scientific, and of course,
                > Fedora, which is no longer a clone, use yum.
                >
                > I haven't used the others in awhile--I do know that their packages
                > aren't usually compatible with each other, and I don't know how
                > difference the uses of yum are between them.
                >
                > >
                > > I will add to that my recent experience with F14. I had several package
                > > managers installed, Packagekit, Yumex, Smart and Add /Remove and I could not
                > > get all of them to work from the same database. I would update in Yumex and
                > > then Packagekit would say it could not find the database and update which I
                > > had done just seconds before in Yumex. So I would rebuild the database but
                > > it would still only work in Packagekit and another one would break. At no
                > > point could I get all four to work. Not only that it would update the
                > > package list twice, before I installed an application and afterwards, before
                > > I had a chance to quit Yumex. It seems very touchy and antiquated to my
                > > thinking.
                >
                >
                > Yumex has, unfortunately, become almost defunct in favor of packagekit.
                > Packagekit, may, one day, be something good, at present, its developers
                > have done things such as allow all installs and updates with no
                > authentication---this slipped by people because the majority use command
                > line and also because, in testing, packages are unsigned and it only
                > applied to signed packages. After this made the front page of slashdot,
                > they changed it, but he left it so that upgrading required no password,
                > which made it into RH beta. I think it was Jeff's mocking this to his
                > friend at RH that got it fixed.
                >
                > >
                > > Presto seems like a good idea, but it does not save any time because it
                > > spends much time calculating changes and testing them when it could be
                > > installing. It does save bandwidth if that is important to you.
                >
                > True, it doesn't save time, due to the rebuild, however, bandwidth is
                > the aim, I believe. On the other hand, these days, if you're on
                > limited bandwidth or dialup, not sure if Fedora would be the distro with
                > its frequently upgrades.
                >
                > I use it because for the majority of us in the IT industry, the jobs are
                > RH based, and at my age, will probably stay that way till I retired.
                > Your assessment doesn' sound overly harsh to me.
                >
                > > The advantage of Debian over RPM used to be stability, but as mentioned RPM
                > > is stable now. The advantage now is that Debian is more uniform and simpler
                > > to use. It also has far more packages because Debian maintains such huge
                > > repos. The best RPM distro in my experience has roughly half the number of
                > > packages that Ubuntu has.
                >
                >
                > If one combines rpmforge and a few other 3rd party ones, I'm not sure.
                > RedHat itself, aimed at the enterprise, has relatively few, even when
                > compared to Fedora.
                >
                > > When there is so much talk about having one package manager to rule them
                > > all, it seems that RPM must first get its act together and agree on some
                > > standards before they could hope to present RPM as a viable alternative to
                > > DEB.
                >
                > I think the eventual aim of PackageKit is to be able to handle both and
                > any other formats as well. I don't see too many religious arguments
                > over it, nor do I see RH trying to make themselves the standard, at
                > least in the everyday, vs. the business, world.
                >
                > --
                > Scott Robbins
                > PGP keyID EB3467D6
                > ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                >
                > Xander: Hi, for those of you who just tuned in,
                > everyone here is a crazy person.
                >
              • Roy
                I find it hard to argue with Scott. His reasons for choosing a distro are sound. Use what you know and like and what works for you whether it is the need to be
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 2, 2010
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                  I find it hard to argue with Scott. His reasons for choosing a distro are
                  sound. Use what you know and like and what works for you whether it is the
                  need to be standard with home and work or otherwise. I would say the same
                  about the W OSes. I think that more people should use Fedora. I would except
                  I like all of the packages Kubuntu has and the openness of PPAs, although
                  purists see them as a problem.

                  I agree with others that Packagekit is not great, but what is? I always
                  default to Synaptic because it just works, even though I use KDE. Or I use
                  apt-get. Ubuntu's Software Centre is a classic case of what is wrong with
                  package managers today. They simplify to the point where you get no relevant
                  info. You get all the glitz and hype (ooh, look, it has four stars) but you
                  can't find out what dependencies it needs and what changes to your system
                  will be before it does its work. If you are like me (Heaven forbid) and
                  don't want something in particular (I am picky) Software Centre will install
                  it anyway. You could even end up with Mono (that is a disease in both
                  senses, IMO) and not know it or install Evolution when you don't want it
                  because it is part of ubuntu-desktop. You have no way of knowing whether is
                  is Mono-based, GTK based or Qt based because Software Centre is not going to
                  tell you. The reall absurdity is that it does not allow you the ability to
                  refresh or update the package list. You need to rely on a separate
                  application, Update Manager, to do that.

                  I prefer Yumex to Packagekit in Fedora and always go back to it. It is the
                  best of a bad lot, IMO. I used RPM way back when RPM Hell was a real problem
                  (Mandrake). I know how bad it was and it is nowhere near as bad as that. I
                  don't seem much difference in the ability to handle dependencies than DEB,
                  but that does not get RPM distros off the hook. There are some real problem
                  in some of the front ends (with the exception of yum which I like). I hate
                  SuSE's implementation. Mandriva is okay. I really like PCLinuxOS, but that
                  uses apt-rpm and Synaptic. The general lack of standards is an annoyance.
                  You can move from one Debian distro to another and the skills are
                  transferable. Not so with RPM distros. Unfair! ;)

                  I think that Scott is right that Presto is designed to save bandwidth and go
                  easy on the servers. For people on dial-up that could be important. I don't
                  even know what that is like anymore as I have been on broadband since it
                  first came out, although my introduction to online was through BBSes and on
                  the internet before www, but that seems like another lifetime ago. It is
                  hard to identify. I have lots of relatives in rural Canada which is the
                  second largest country in the world and very spread out (the population of
                  California) and none has dial up. I don't know why the US is so far behind.
                  It is certainly no more remote. It must be political because we are very
                  different in that respect. That is my rant for today. :)

                  Roy

                  Using Kubuntu 10.10, 64-bit
                  Location: Canada


                  On 1 December 2010 10:01, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > On Wed, Dec 01, 2010 at 08:25:58AM -0500, Roy wrote:
                  > > I agree about yum being much improved and on par with apt. The biggest
                  >
                  > > problem with rpm distros is there is no uniformity. SuSE uses Yast/
                  > Zypper,
                  > > Fedora uses Smart and Yum, RedHat uses up2date, Mandriva uses urpmi, but
                  > > last I heard they were switching to something else. To confuse things
                  > > further PCLOS uses apt-rpm and Synaptic. Whereas all Debian distros use
                  > apt
                  > > and dpkg. The commands are the same across all Debian based distros. That
                  > > makes rpm harder to get to like and learn.
                  >
                  > Smart isn't the default, and one has to go to some effort to set it up.
                  > RedHat, and its clones, Oracle, CentOS, Scientific, and of course,
                  > Fedora, which is no longer a clone, use yum.
                  >
                  > I haven't used the others in awhile--I do know that their packages
                  > aren't usually compatible with each other, and I don't know how
                  > difference the uses of yum are between them.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I will add to that my recent experience with F14. I had several package
                  > > managers installed, Packagekit, Yumex, Smart and Add /Remove and I could
                  > not
                  > > get all of them to work from the same database. I would update in Yumex
                  > and
                  > > then Packagekit would say it could not find the database and update which
                  > I
                  > > had done just seconds before in Yumex. So I would rebuild the database
                  > but
                  > > it would still only work in Packagekit and another one would break. At no
                  > > point could I get all four to work. Not only that it would update the
                  > > package list twice, before I installed an application and afterwards,
                  > before
                  > > I had a chance to quit Yumex. It seems very touchy and antiquated to my
                  > > thinking.
                  >
                  > Yumex has, unfortunately, become almost defunct in favor of packagekit.
                  > Packagekit, may, one day, be something good, at present, its developers
                  > have done things such as allow all installs and updates with no
                  > authentication---this slipped by people because the majority use command
                  > line and also because, in testing, packages are unsigned and it only
                  > applied to signed packages. After this made the front page of slashdot,
                  > they changed it, but he left it so that upgrading required no password,
                  > which made it into RH beta. I think it was Jeff's mocking this to his
                  > friend at RH that got it fixed.
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Presto seems like a good idea, but it does not save any time because it
                  > > spends much time calculating changes and testing them when it could be
                  > > installing. It does save bandwidth if that is important to you.
                  >
                  > True, it doesn't save time, due to the rebuild, however, bandwidth is
                  > the aim, I believe. On the other hand, these days, if you're on
                  > limited bandwidth or dialup, not sure if Fedora would be the distro with
                  > its frequently upgrades.
                  >
                  > I use it because for the majority of us in the IT industry, the jobs are
                  > RH based, and at my age, will probably stay that way till I retired.
                  > Your assessment doesn' sound overly harsh to me.
                  >
                  > > The advantage of Debian over RPM used to be stability, but as mentioned
                  > RPM
                  > > is stable now. The advantage now is that Debian is more uniform and
                  > simpler
                  > > to use. It also has far more packages because Debian maintains such huge
                  > > repos. The best RPM distro in my experience has roughly half the number
                  > of
                  > > packages that Ubuntu has.
                  >
                  > If one combines rpmforge and a few other 3rd party ones, I'm not sure.
                  > RedHat itself, aimed at the enterprise, has relatively few, even when
                  > compared to Fedora.
                  >
                  > > When there is so much talk about having one package manager to rule them
                  > > all, it seems that RPM must first get its act together and agree on some
                  > > standards before they could hope to present RPM as a viable alternative
                  > to
                  > > DEB.
                  >
                  > I think the eventual aim of PackageKit is to be able to handle both and
                  > any other formats as well. I don't see too many religious arguments
                  > over it, nor do I see RH trying to make themselves the standard, at
                  > least in the everyday, vs. the business, world.
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Scott Robbins
                  > PGP keyID EB3467D6
                  > ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                  > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                  >
                  > Xander: Hi, for those of you who just tuned in,
                  > everyone here is a crazy person.
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Scott
                  ... Yum, the front end for rpm, (I don t know about the GUI package managers) has handled this quite well for a long time. ... I ve not run into it, which may,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 2, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 01:23:55PM -0000, dbneeley wrote:
                    > The standard application manager for Kubuntu is KPackageKit, which I abor.
                    >
                    > As for RPM, please someone correct me if I'm wrong--but last I heard the RPM resource database kept on your system lacks sufficient discrimination when it comes to required dependencies--that was originally a major reason it was to be completely rewritten. Has this been done?
                    >

                    Yum, the front end for rpm, (I don't know about the GUI package
                    managers) has handled this quite well for a long time.



                    > Regardless of the front end used, if installing a new app creates dependency issues for ones already installed, that would seem a very bad idea...and before I went to Debian-based distros, that happened to me more than once on both SuSE and Red Hat. Has this been fixed?
                    >

                    I've not run into it, which may, of course, only mean it's fixed on the
                    packages I use. :)

                    --
                    Scott Robbins
                    PGP keyID EB3467D6
                    ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                    gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6


                    Wesley: Wait for Faith.
                    Buffy: That could be hours. The girl makes Godot look punctual.
                  • Frederick Minix
                    There is currently a RPM module, which has been re-written by an outside developer.  He is currently seeking to bring this to Redhat and others.  However, he
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 2, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      There is currently a RPM module, which has been re-written by an outside
                      developer.  He is currently seeking to bring this to Redhat and others. 
                      However, he is finding problems contacting those who can make this decision.  If
                      anyone has information please send it to me immediately!!!  I have myself seen
                      his module and it works great.  It solves many of the problems with RPM's.
                      Again, if you have any information please email it to me as soon as you can.




                      ________________________________
                      From: Scott <scottro@...>
                      To: LINUX_Newbies@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 12:52:55 PM
                      Subject: Re: [LINUX_Newbies] Re: Help choosing the right Linux Distro

                       
                      On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 01:23:55PM -0000, dbneeley wrote:
                      > The standard application manager for Kubuntu is KPackageKit, which I abor.
                      >
                      > As for RPM, please someone correct me if I'm wrong--but last I heard the RPM
                      >resource database kept on your system lacks sufficient discrimination when it
                      >comes to required dependencies--that was originally a major reason it was to be
                      >completely rewritten. Has this been done?
                      >

                      Yum, the front end for rpm, (I don't know about the GUI package
                      managers) has handled this quite well for a long time.

                      > Regardless of the front end used, if installing a new app creates dependency
                      >issues for ones already installed, that would seem a very bad idea...and before
                      >I went to Debian-based distros, that happened to me more than once on both SuSE
                      >and Red Hat. Has this been fixed?
                      >

                      I've not run into it, which may, of course, only mean it's fixed on the
                      packages I use. :)

                      --
                      Scott Robbins
                      PGP keyID EB3467D6
                      ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                      gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

                      Wesley: Wait for Faith.
                      Buffy: That could be hours. The girl makes Godot look punctual.






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Scott
                      ... Your best for something like that is to have him join the Fedora developers mailing list and post it for review there.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 2, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Thu, Dec 02, 2010 at 01:05:08PM -0800, Frederick Minix wrote:
                        > There is currently a RPM module, which has been re-written by an outside
                        > developer.  He is currently seeking to bring this to Redhat and others. 
                        > However, he is finding problems contacting those who can make this decision.  If
                        > anyone has information please send it to me immediately!!!  I have myself seen
                        > his module and it works great.  It solves many of the problems with RPM's.
                        > Again, if you have any information please email it to me as soon as you can.

                        Your best for something like that is to have him join the Fedora
                        developers mailing list and post it for review there.

                        https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

                        The other option is to post it to bugzilla.redhat.com, but I suspect it
                        will just be ignored there.


                        --
                        Scott Robbins
                        PGP keyID EB3467D6
                        ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                        gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

                        Xander: The quick draw is about more than speed. It's also
                        about pointing the stake the right way. And there can be splinter
                        issues.
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