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Re: [LINUX_Newbies] vista ISO

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  • IraqiGeek
    On Friday, July 07, 2006 5:47 AM GMT, ... Apparently you don t know much about printers, or how they work. Do you really think that a print head with nozzels
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 6, 2006
      On Friday, July 07, 2006 5:47 AM GMT,
      Russell <xena400@...> wrote:

      > I can see where you're coming from, but from my point in view why
      > would
      > you sell a piece of plastic with ink in it that cost the same amount
      > as
      > something that is made up of wires and circuitry boards? The idea of
      > material and size doesn't match up to the price. If you would analyze
      > the whole scenario, why aren't they selling seats for cars at $23,000
      > which is what a car goes for? This whole scenario was on the news one
      > time. They were having people who were ticked at the prices on the
      > news.
      > They wound up selling the generic brands but even those prices were
      > raised to make up for the money that they lost (Seems like a
      > coincidence
      > to me for microsoft, if you lose money somewhere, jack up the price on
      > the cheap stuff to make up for it.) I think the whole idea of selling
      > a
      > printer cartridge at the same amount as a printer doesn't make sense.
      > I
      > think they make the most important parts extremely expensive so that
      > we'll have to buy them otherwise we won't be able to use the second
      > most
      > expensive. That's like selling a DVD for the same amount as the burner
      > itself. Or shall we say, in my case, an AMD processor for my computer
      > at
      > 1.5ghz would cost almost the same amount as my computer itself. Which
      > brings me back to the amount and prices not matching. You have a 3inch
      > by 3inch circuitry board that costs the same amount as something that
      > is 17 inch x 23 inch? Looks like somebody's making allot of money
      > conveniently.
      >

      Apparently you don't know much about printers, or how they work. Do you
      really think that a print head with nozzels that are in the tenths of the
      width of a human hair, let alone the reminder of the printer body costs
      under $100 to make???

      > But in any ways, like you said, to keep this on topic, I think that
      > Linux would definitely beat Windows by a long shot because of Windows'
      > errors.

      We have been hearing this statement for ages now. Apple was supposed to be
      gone a decade and a half ago. AMD was supposed to go sieze over four years
      ago. So many Canon fanboys predicted that Nikon would go out of business
      within a few years after Canon became the main player in the DSLR market.
      The list goes on and on listing companies that fanboys predicted should have
      gone out of business, yet they are still alive and kicking.

      Returning to the topic of Linux vs Windows. While Windows does indeed have
      numerous flaws in terms of security and stability, it compensates for that
      with ease of use. Everything under windows has a unique standard (whether
      that standard is the best or worst is another story). While your run of the
      mill distro is far more stable and secure than Windows, both out of the box,
      using Linux is still far from an easy task. There still arent unified
      standards, the GUIs are still developed based on a geeky point of view,
      rather than focusing on ease of usability, and lets face it, your average
      Joe doesnt want to think about whether to use KDE or Gnome for his desktop
      environment, whether to go with an rpm based or deb based package system,
      wether he/she should format their drive's partition to ext2/3 or raiserfs.
      Heck, the user will even have to decide how they should partition their
      drives, should they go with a flat filesystem relying on a single partition,
      or whether they need to have separate ones for /home and /usr.

      You want Linux to really break into mainstream computing, get the majority
      of distribution publishers/makers to agree on a single main standard Linux
      framework where there is a single and unique standard for every task that
      each and everyone of those publishers will adapt. Let the decision making
      burden be on the developers of the distro, not on the average end user who
      only cares to push the power button, wait a miniute or so, and then be able
      to check their email and browse the net without giving a rats ass as to how
      any of that is happening. Then, and only then, Linux will start to be
      adopted by the masses.


      Regards,
      IraqiGeek
      www.iraqigeek.com

      Murhy's Commerce Laws: To err is human, to forgive is not company policy.


      > Russell
      >
      > Davey wrote:
      >
      >> Russell wrote:
      >>
      >> [snip]
      >>> Why
      >>> is it that a printer carterage costs as much as the printer itself?
      >>
      >> This one is easy, it is the Gillette Principal of Business:
      >> "Give away the razors in order to sell the blades"
      >>
      >> which translates to:
      >>
      >> "Give away the printers in order to sell the ink cartridges"
      >> "Give away the computers in order to sell more service & software"
      >> (see "King Gillette"
      >> <http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/gillette.htm
      >> <http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/gillette.htm>> )
      >>
      >> This principal doesn't always work. Texas Instruments tried this with
      >> the old
      >> TI-99/4a home computer system in the early '80s. After rebate the
      >> computer was
      >> very cheap. They thought they would control all software & hardware
      >> for the
      >> system & make a killing (the computer for $50 and the disk drive for
      >> $500). It
      >> almost killed them instead.
      >>
      >> To keep this on topic & give a modern Linux example: IBM, Redhat and
      >> Novelle
      >> essentially follow this principal with Linux. They basically give
      >> away the op
      >> sys to sell the op sys services. It is about the only way to make
      >> money on Linux
      >> (and the GPL).
      >>
      >> Sincerely,
      >> WarpDavey
      >> --
      >> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Ben
      >> Franklin
      >>
      >
    • Chad Martin
      ... Because, simply put, how much a thing is worth is how much the market is willing to pay for it. You have a lot of questions that could be answered with a
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 6, 2006
        Russell wrote:
        > I can see where you're coming from, but from my point in view why would
        > you sell a piece of plastic with ink in it that cost the same amount as
        > something that is made up of wires and circuitry boards?

        Because, simply put, how much a thing is worth is how much the market is
        willing to pay for it. You have a lot of questions that could be
        answered with a simple macroeconomics class. Teaching business and
        macroeconomics, I believe, is outside the scope of this mailing list.

        Chad Martin
      • Robert C Wittig
        ... There is a thriving aftermarket of cloned and refilled inkjet carts on eBay, averaging about 20 cents on the retail dollar. I haven t paid retail in years.
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 6, 2006
          Scott wrote:

          > Actually, most of them are very blatant about this. Some HP support
          > pepole told me that some folks actually found it cheaper to buy a brand
          > new printer than to replace the cartridges. I believe it. My wife has
          > a little cheap Epson. Replacing the cartridges will run about 40
          > dollars. The printer itself sold for less IIRC.

          There is a thriving aftermarket of cloned and refilled inkjet carts on
          eBay, averaging about 20 cents on the retail dollar.

          I haven't paid retail in years.




          --
          -wittig http://www.robertwittig.com/
          . http://robertwittig.net/
        • Chad Martin
          ... Yes. One of the big mantras of Linux is choice. People are used to things that have user interfaces as difficult as a toaster. If a computer doesn t
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 6, 2006
            IraqiGeek wrote:
            > You want Linux to really break into mainstream computing, get the majority
            > of distribution publishers/makers to agree on a single main standard Linux
            > framework where there is a single and unique standard for every task that
            > each and everyone of those publishers will adapt. Let the decision making
            > burden be on the developers of the distro, not on the average end user who
            > only cares to push the power button, wait a miniute or so, and then be able
            > to check their email and browse the net without giving a rats ass as to how
            > any of that is happening. Then, and only then, Linux will start to be
            > adopted by the masses.

            Yes. One of the big mantras of Linux is choice. People are used to
            things that have user interfaces as difficult as a toaster. If a
            computer doesn't work as easily a toaster, it's confusing. Windows is
            more of a toaster. Linux, espousing choice, neccessarily cannot be a
            toaster. If you remove the choice of window managers, filesystems,
            etc., Linux ceases to be what it is today. I'd rather have a computer
            than a toaster, so I choose Linux. If the distros did what you say, I
            think very few of us would stick with it. I know I wouldn't.

            Another thing you miss, which is huge, is marketing. I had a very
            intelligent boss who always bought Intel products because they, in his
            mind, "worked better with Windows." That's the power of marketing.
            Microsoft does it better than anybody in the OS world. They make it
            sound as if you have only one choice, and that's Windows. And people
            believe it partially because they're not interested in learning
            differently. There's also the perception of value in a price. If it
            costs more, it's worth more, right? That's what business classes teach you.

            In summary...

            Linux:
            Choice
            Free
            Difficult

            Windows:
            No choice
            Expensive
            Easy

            Chad Martin
          • Michael Sullivan
            ... Why do they charge the same for a print cartridge that they do for the printer? Because they can. Because they know that people will pay that much for it
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 6, 2006
              On Thu, 2006-07-06 at 21:47 -0700, Russell wrote:
              > I can see where you're coming from, but from my point in view why
              > would
              > you sell a piece of plastic with ink in it that cost the same amount
              > as
              > something that is made up of wires and circuitry boards? The idea of
              > material and size doesn't match up to the price. If you would analyze
              > the whole scenario, why aren't they selling seats for cars at $23,000
              > which is what a car goes for? This whole scenario was on the news one
              > time. They were having people who were ticked at the prices on the
              > news.
              > They wound up selling the generic brands but even those prices were
              > raised to make up for the money that they lost (Seems like a
              > coincidence
              > to me for microsoft, if you lose money somewhere, jack up the price
              > on
              > the cheap stuff to make up for it.) I think the whole idea of selling
              > a
              > printer cartridge at the same amount as a printer doesn't make sense.
              > I
              > think they make the most important parts extremely expensive so that
              > we'll have to buy them otherwise we won't be able to use the second
              > most
              > expensive. That's like selling a DVD for the same amount as the
              > burner
              > itself. Or shall we say, in my case, an AMD processor for my computer
              > at
              > 1.5ghz would cost almost the same amount as my computer itself. Which
              > brings me back to the amount and prices not matching. You have a
              > 3inch
              > by 3inch circuitry board that costs the same amount as something that
              > is
              > 17 inch x 23 inch? Looks like somebody's making allot of money
              > conveniently.
              >
              > But in any ways, like you said, to keep this on topic, I think that
              > Linux would definitely beat Windows by a long shot because of
              > Windows'
              > errors.
              > Russell
              >
              > Davey wrote:

              Why do they charge the same for a print cartridge that they do for the
              printer? Because they can. Because they know that people will pay that
              much for it because they have no other choice.
            • IraqiGeek
              On Friday, July 07, 2006 4:36 AM GMT, ... I dont believe that standarizing means necessairly that you don t have the choice anymore. It barely means that there
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 7, 2006
                On Friday, July 07, 2006 4:36 AM GMT,
                Chad Martin <chad@...> wrote:

                > IraqiGeek wrote:
                >> You want Linux to really break into mainstream computing, get the
                >> majority of distribution publishers/makers to agree on a single main
                >> standard Linux framework where there is a single and unique standard
                >> for every task that each and everyone of those publishers will
                >> adapt. Let the decision making burden be on the developers of the
                >> distro, not on the average end user who only cares to push the power
                >> button, wait a miniute or so, and then be able to check their email
                >> and browse the net without giving a rats ass as to how any of that
                >> is happening. Then, and only then, Linux will start to be adopted by
                >> the masses.
                >
                > Yes. One of the big mantras of Linux is choice. People are used to
                > things that have user interfaces as difficult as a toaster. If a
                > computer doesn't work as easily a toaster, it's confusing. Windows is
                > more of a toaster. Linux, espousing choice, neccessarily cannot be a
                > toaster. If you remove the choice of window managers, filesystems,
                > etc., Linux ceases to be what it is today. I'd rather have a computer
                > than a toaster, so I choose Linux. If the distros did what you say, I
                > think very few of us would stick with it. I know I wouldn't.
                >

                I dont believe that standarizing means necessairly that you don't have the
                choice anymore. It barely means that there is a common set of defaults
                shared between distros, something similar to the Debian Common Core (DCC)
                but extended to the remaining aspects of the OS. This way, Linux distros
                would have a "toaster" mode that makes it intuitive for users to learn Linux
                without worrying about the details, at least in the beginning.

                Yes, windows operates in toaster mode by default, but once you have reached
                the technical level where you can make informed decisions about what you
                want it to do, and how you want that to be done, you can still customize it
                to a certain degree, and it certainly doesnt lack in the complexity
                department.

                One doesnt have to be a car mechanic to know how to drive. With Linux, in
                its current state, you have to be a tech savvy person who is willing to go
                through lots and lots of technical details, read many long man pages and
                howtos before you can accomplish some simple task as simple as installing
                the driver of a new device you want to add.

                > Another thing you miss, which is huge, is marketing. I had a very
                > intelligent boss who always bought Intel products because they, in his
                > mind, "worked better with Windows." That's the power of marketing.
                > Microsoft does it better than anybody in the OS world. They make it
                > sound as if you have only one choice, and that's Windows. And people
                > believe it partially because they're not interested in learning
                > differently. There's also the perception of value in a price. If it
                > costs more, it's worth more, right? That's what business classes
                > teach you.

                No, I'm not missing that one, but thats a total different story. I have been
                personally dealing with this "Intel is better" mantra for years now.
                However, I don't believe that you cant get granny to use Linux no matter how
                much marketting you do. Sure, with enough money you could intice her to try
                it, but then you'd leave a negative experience that would be very hard to
                reverse.

                >
                > In summary...
                >
                > Linux:
                > Choice
                > Free
                > Difficult

                Why cant Linux be easy, yet still represent the choice and freedom it is
                representing today?

                >
                > Windows:
                > No choice
                > Expensive
                > Easy

                Its sorta like "you get what you pay for". People want ease of use, and
                hence will pay microsoft to get an easy to use OS where they can actually
                focus on doing their work (99% of people have non computer related jobs),
                not on how to get that damn document printed.

                >
                > Chad Martin
                >


                Regards,
                IraqiGeek
                www.iraqigeek.com

                How an engineer writes a program: Start by debugging an empty file...
              • Norm Higgs
                ... From: Russell To: Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [LINUX_Newbies] vista ISO ...
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 7, 2006
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Russell" <xena400@...>
                  To: <LINUX_Newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:02 AM
                  Subject: Re: [LINUX_Newbies] vista ISO


                  > quality stuff. Why is it that a PCI adapter for a wireless network costs
                  > as much as the router when it's half the size of the router itself. Why
                  > is it that a printer carterage costs as much as the printer itself?

                  These things have nothing to do with Microsoft. I don't know where you're
                  buying your hardware from, but I see PCI wireless adapters at Newegg
                  from $14.99, while the wireless routers start at $26.99.

                  The printer cartridge pricing is simply the business model they are using,
                  make your profit on the consumables, not the hardware, because the
                  consumables are purchased much more often than the hardware. The
                  company I work for uses the same business model to sell Bio-tech
                  equipment and consumables. They sell the hardware at roughly cost,
                  while they let the consumables division produce the lions share of the
                  company profits.

                  Its called SMART BUSINESS.

                  Norm Higgs
                  http://computers.forbiddenjoy.com
                  https://www.linkedin.com/e/fpf/4018099
                • Norm Higgs
                  LOL!!!! Bill gates does not own Microsoft. It is a publicly traded corporation, and one of the Dow Jones Industrial Average components. Bill only owns 27% of
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 7, 2006
                    LOL!!!!

                    Bill gates does not 'own' Microsoft. It is a publicly traded corporation,
                    and
                    one of the Dow Jones Industrial Average components. Bill only owns 27%
                    of the outstanding stock. The other 73% is owned by millions of
                    stockholders.

                    Norm Higgs
                    http://computers.forbiddenjoy.com
                    https://www.linkedin.com/e/fpf/4018099
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Russell" <xena400@...>
                    To: <LINUX_Newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:19 PM
                    Subject: Re: {Disarmed} [LINUX_Newbies] vista ISO


                    > Bill Gates owns Microsoft. It would be impossible for him to leave a
                    > company that he's the boss of unless he sells the company which I doubt
                    > that will happen.

                    LOL!!!!

                    Bill gates does not 'own' Microsoft. It is a publicly traded corporation,
                    and
                    one of the Dow Jones Industrial Average components. Bill only owns 27%
                    of the outstanding stock. The other 73% is owned by millions of
                    stockholders.
                    He does not not have to sell anything to step down as CEO.

                    Norm Higgs
                    http://computers.forbiddenjoy.com
                    https://www.linkedin.com/e/fpf/4018099
                  • Joe Takacs
                    I have been using Epson printers (one c60 and one c66) for years. I buy all my cartridges from printpal.com for about 1/4 the cost of the Epson cartridges.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 7, 2006
                      I have been using Epson printers (one c60 and one c66) for years. I buy
                      all my cartridges from printpal.com for about 1/4 the cost of the Epson
                      cartridges. Am very satisfied with their performance.

                      I made the mistake of getting a Lexmark printer/copier/scanner a couple
                      of years ago - huge mistake - will "never" do that again. Poor
                      performance and did not work with the printpal cartridges.

                      I have 5 working computers (2 laptops) as of right now (AORN) in my home
                      - all networked together. Four are running Win XP Home and the other
                      one is "reserved" for experimenting with Linux. AORN, I have Xandros on
                      it - works OK. Soon will try Suse 10.1, which I just downloaded. Have
                      some questions - for another post.

                      I am retired (73) and go clear back to the early days of DOS, so I am
                      somewhat familiar with the command line rather than a GUI.

                      Joe Takacs




                      Russell wrote:
                      > I can see where you're coming from, but from my point in view why would
                      > you sell a piece of plastic with ink in it that cost the same amount as
                      > something that is made up of wires and circuitry boards? The idea of
                      > material and size doesn't match up to the price. If you would analyze
                      > the whole scenario, why aren't they selling seats for cars at $23,000
                      > which is what a car goes for? This whole scenario was on the news one
                      > time. They were having people who were ticked at the prices on the news.
                      > They wound up selling the generic brands but even those prices were
                      > raised to make up for the money that they lost (Seems like a coincidence
                      > to me for microsoft, if you lose money somewhere, jack up the price on
                      > the cheap stuff to make up for it.) I think the whole idea of selling a
                      > printer cartridge at the same amount as a printer doesn't make sense. I
                      > think they make the most important parts extremely expensive so that
                      > we'll have to buy them otherwise we won't be able to use the second most
                      > expensive. That's like selling a DVD for the same amount as the burner
                      > itself. Or shall we say, in my case, an AMD processor for my computer at
                      > 1.5ghz would cost almost the same amount as my computer itself. Which
                      > brings me back to the amount and prices not matching. You have a 3inch
                      > by 3inch circuitry board that costs the same amount as something that is
                      > 17 inch x 23 inch? Looks like somebody's making allot of money conveniently.
                      >
                      > But in any ways, like you said, to keep this on topic, I think that
                      > Linux would definitely beat Windows by a long shot because of Windows'
                      > errors.
                      > Russell
                      >
                      > Davey wrote:
                      >
                      >> Russell wrote:
                      >>
                      >> [snip]
                      >>> Why
                      >>> is it that a printer carterage costs as much as the printer itself?
                      >> This one is easy, it is the Gillette Principal of Business:
                      >> "Give away the razors in order to sell the blades"
                      >>
                      >> which translates to:
                      >>
                      >> "Give away the printers in order to sell the ink cartridges"
                      >> "Give away the computers in order to sell more service & software"
                      >> (see "King Gillette"
                      >> <http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/gillette.htm
                      >> <http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/gillette.htm>> )
                      >>
                      >> This principal doesn't always work. Texas Instruments tried this with
                      >> the old
                      >> TI-99/4a home computer system in the early '80s. After rebate the
                      >> computer was
                      >> very cheap. They thought they would control all software & hardware
                      >> for the
                      >> system & make a killing (the computer for $50 and the disk drive for
                      >> $500). It
                      >> almost killed them instead.
                      >>
                      >> To keep this on topic & give a modern Linux example: IBM, Redhat and
                      >> Novelle
                      >> essentially follow this principal with Linux. They basically give away
                      >> the op
                      >> sys to sell the op sys services. It is about the only way to make
                      >> money on Linux
                      >> (and the GPL).
                      >>
                      >> Sincerely,
                      >> WarpDavey
                      >> --
                      >> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Ben Franklin
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Russell
                      Exactly, (Just like the gas prices (That part I was just joking about).) Russell ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 7, 2006
                        Exactly, (Just like the gas prices (That part I was just joking about).)
                        Russell

                        Michael Sullivan wrote:

                        > On Thu, 2006-07-06 at 21:47 -0700, Russell wrote:
                        > > I can see where you're coming from, but from my point in view why
                        > > would
                        > > you sell a piece of plastic with ink in it that cost the same amount
                        > > as
                        > > something that is made up of wires and circuitry boards? The idea of
                        > > material and size doesn't match up to the price. If you would analyze
                        > > the whole scenario, why aren't they selling seats for cars at $23,000
                        > > which is what a car goes for? This whole scenario was on the news one
                        > > time. They were having people who were ticked at the prices on the
                        > > news.
                        > > They wound up selling the generic brands but even those prices were
                        > > raised to make up for the money that they lost (Seems like a
                        > > coincidence
                        > > to me for microsoft, if you lose money somewhere, jack up the price
                        > > on
                        > > the cheap stuff to make up for it.) I think the whole idea of selling
                        > > a
                        > > printer cartridge at the same amount as a printer doesn't make sense.
                        > > I
                        > > think they make the most important parts extremely expensive so that
                        > > we'll have to buy them otherwise we won't be able to use the second
                        > > most
                        > > expensive. That's like selling a DVD for the same amount as the
                        > > burner
                        > > itself. Or shall we say, in my case, an AMD processor for my computer
                        > > at
                        > > 1.5ghz would cost almost the same amount as my computer itself. Which
                        > > brings me back to the amount and prices not matching. You have a
                        > > 3inch
                        > > by 3inch circuitry board that costs the same amount as something that
                        > > is
                        > > 17 inch x 23 inch? Looks like somebody's making allot of money
                        > > conveniently.
                        > >
                        > > But in any ways, like you said, to keep this on topic, I think that
                        > > Linux would definitely beat Windows by a long shot because of
                        > > Windows'
                        > > errors.
                        > > Russell
                        > >
                        > > Davey wrote:
                        >
                        > Why do they charge the same for a print cartridge that they do for the
                        > printer? Because they can. Because they know that people will pay that
                        > much for it because they have no other choice.
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Robert C Wittig
                        ... I have 4 Epson printers... a Stylus 880 inkjet, two Epson 3000 large format machines, and an ancient LX-80 impact printer that uses re-ink-able ribbons and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 8, 2006
                          Joe Takacs wrote:
                          > I have been using Epson printers (one c60 and one c66) for years. I buy
                          > all my cartridges from printpal.com for about 1/4 the cost of the Epson
                          > cartridges. Am very satisfied with their performance.

                          I have 4 Epson printers... a Stylus 880 inkjet, two Epson 3000 large
                          format machines, and an ancient LX-80 impact printer that uses
                          re-ink-able ribbons and tractor feed paper, which is great for typing up
                          things like paper copies of invoices, for my tax records.

                          > I am retired (73) and go clear back to the early days of DOS, so I am
                          > somewhat familiar with the command line rather than a GUI.

                          I still have DOS (and FreeDOS) installed, along with Windows 3.11 in a
                          removable hard drive caddy, that I occasionally swap into my machine,
                          when I want to take a trip down memory lane, playing Tetris, Monopoly
                          for DOS, PacMan for DOS and all the old, clunky-cool games.



                          --
                          -wittig http://www.robertwittig.com/
                          . http://robertwittig.net/
                        • Steve Ross
                          [snip] ... [snip] You know, you could take out six of these zeros and it would still be a nice chunk of change! I don t think Bill does it for the money (he s
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 18, 2006
                            [snip]
                            >Bill Gates...

                            >Since a guy is worth about $600,000,000,000 when he rakes in
                            [snip]

                            You know, you could take out six of these zeros and it would still be a
                            nice chunk of change!

                            I don't think Bill does it for the money (he's got more than he could
                            spend if 100 lifetimes) but I think he just loves the art-of-the-deal.

                            Steve
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