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QUERY: Anyone out there still kicking?

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  • Jason R. Smith
    I hope that everyone had a good Christmas and New Year holiday. I was able to make a quick trip to Independence between the 26th and 31st. I spent my time
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 8, 2004
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      I hope that everyone had a good Christmas and New Year holiday.  I was able to make a quick trip to Independence between the 26th and 31st.  I spent my time collecting sources for my current research project.  Things have been pretty quiet here on the LDSgroups list, so I thought I'd say a brief hello and encourage you all to get back in the swing of things.
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Jason R. Smith
      Moderator - LDSgroups Email List
    • paul c graham
      Hello LDSgroupites - This was the first blip on my computer screen from this group since I signed-up. I had almost forgot I had signed-up, but it is all
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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        Hello LDSgroupites�-
        This was the first blip on my computer screen from this group since I signed-up.� I had almost forgot I had signed-up, but it is all coming back to me now...�
        By way of introduction, my name is Paul C. Graham and I signed-up for this group just after it was mentioned in the last John Whitmer Historical Association Newsletter.�
        I live in Columbia, South Carolina-- actually, in Cayce, SC which is on the west side of� the Congarree River which seperates my�town from the Capital City.� For money, I am an employee for the State of SC in their Retirement System and a Part-Time�Philosophy Instructor at a local community college.��Currently teaching Introduction to Formal Logic.� I am actively involved in the Masonic community here in SC. I was Worshipful Master of my lodge last year ( http://www.mastermason.com/fortjacksonlodge374/�) and am�serving this year as the President of the South Carolina Masonic Research Society ( www.scmrs.org ).��There are other things I'm doing, but I do not want to bore you with the details.� This leads me to the next�paragraph...����
        I am interested in early Mormon history, particularily the role of Freemasonry in the tradition and even more particularily Freemasonry�during the Nauvoo era.� I am the web master of a site called "The Masonic Moroni"�(�www.masonicmoroni.com ).� I was raised in the LDS Church-- Brighamites, if you will-- but have been inactive for most of my adult life.� (I am currently 35 years old.)�
        Anyway, I am not sure to what extent the role of "secret combinations" played in non-Brighamite, Mormon traditions.� I am sure it is there something�somewhere considering the number of important Mormon leaders at Nauvoo who were Masons, member's of Joseph's "Holy Order" and/or "Council of�Fifty," and who did not go west with Brigham.�� The only quasi-Masonic order I am aware of outside of the Utah church is�J.J. Strang's "Order of the Illumnati" and I don't know much about it.�
        Anyway, that's my thing.� I look forward to seeing what this group is all about.
        Regards,
        Paul C. Graham


        ~ VOCATUS ATQUE NON VOCATUS DEUS ADERIT ~

      • Frater Raymond Buscemi
        Hello Jason I am curious about your research project...? Also - for everyone - I have set a layout of the King Follett Sermon in pamphlet format and will have
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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          Hello Jason
           
          I am curious about your research project...?
           
          Also - for everyone - I have set a layout of the King Follett Sermon in pamphlet format and will have it available in  Word and PDF (Adobe) for easy emailing, printing and distributing.  I am hoping to generate some discussion among friends and colleagues here in San Francisco as well as anywhere else regarindg the multiplicity of God (Elohim) and Joseph Smith's reliance on the Zohar as a foundation text for his later ideas.  Email me directly if you would like a copy of the pamphlet; curently it stands alone but I will be writing an introductory comentary this spring.
           
          Raymond Buscemi
           
        • Jason R. Smith
          Greetings Raymond, My current reseach topic deals with interactions between the RLDS and the Church of Christ (Hedrickite or Temple Lot). I am specifically
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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            Greetings Raymond,
             
            My current reseach topic deals with interactions between the RLDS and the Church of Christ (Hedrickite or Temple Lot).  I am specifically looking at the period directly after the Temple Lot suit was over and then through the Supreme Directional Control (SDC) Crisis in the RLDS Church - roughly 1894-1930.  For sources, I am primarily looking at letters and periodicals from the 2 groups during this period.  If you or anyone else here have any ideas about this, please feel free to help me out =)
             
            Jason
             
            ----- Original Message -----

            Hello Jason
             
            I am curious about your research project...?
             
            Also - for everyone - I have set a layout of the King Follett Sermon in pamphlet format and will have it available in  Word and PDF (Adobe) for easy emailing, printing and distributing.  I am hoping to generate some discussion among friends and colleagues here in San Francisco as well as anywhere else regarindg the multiplicity of God (Elohim) and Joseph Smith's reliance on the Zohar as a foundation text for his later ideas.  Email me directly if you would like a copy of the pamphlet; curently it stands alone but I will be writing an introductory comentary this spring.
             
            Raymond Buscemi
          • John Hamer
            Welcome Paul -- I ve just been looking through your website. It looks like you ve created an excellent resource for research in this interesting and important
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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              Welcome Paul --
               
              I've just been looking through your website.  It looks like you've created an excellent resource for research in this interesting and important topic.  It's very interesting to have someone approach the topic as a practicing Mason / cultural Mormon (non-practicing).
               
              I'm sure I know much less about the persistance of Masonic influence in the non-Brighamite branches of the Mormon Restoration than you and many others on this board and I'm excited to hear what information you uncover about the Order of Illuminati, etc. 
               
              In addition to the Nauvoo-era endowment and the post-Kirtland temples, it seems like much of the "kingdom" ceremonial in Mormonism may have been drawn from Masonry.  I wonder the extent to which some of James Strang and Brigham Young's later ceremonies may have been informed by their followers knowledge of Masonic ceremony.
               
              I know the Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite) retained the Nauvoo-era endowment and performed the ceremony in the upper story of their meeting houses in Clitherall and Independence.  I don't know if it's still performed.  Alpheus Cutler also drew upon his membership in the Council of the Fifty to preserve among his followers the Kingdom power -- which (to my understanding) they hold in trust for Christ's return in the Second Coming. 
               
              Best wishes,
              John Hamer
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:09 AM
              Subject: [LDSgroups] REPLY: Anyone out there still kicking?

              Hello LDSgroupites -
               
              This was the first blip on my computer screen from this group since I signed-up.  I had almost forgot I had signed-up, but it is all coming back to me now... 
               
              By way of introduction, my name is Paul C. Graham and I signed-up for this group just after it was mentioned in the last John Whitmer Historical Association Newsletter. 
               
              I live in Columbia, South Carolina-- actually, in Cayce, SC which is on the west side of  the Congarree River which seperates my town from the Capital City.  For money, I am an employee for the State of SC in their Retirement System and a Part-Time Philosophy Instructor at a local community college.  Currently teaching Introduction to Formal Logic.  I am actively involved in the Masonic community here in SC. I was Worshipful Master of my lodge last year ( http://www.mastermason.com/fortjacksonlodge374/ ) and am serving this year as the President of the South Carolina Masonic Research Society ( www.scmrs.org ).  There are other things I'm doing, but I do not want to bore you with the details.  This leads me to the next paragraph...    
               
              I am interested in early Mormon history, particularily the role of Freemasonry in the tradition and even more particularily Freemasonry during the Nauvoo era.  I am the web master of a site called "The Masonic Moroni" ( www.masonicmoroni.com ).  I was raised in the LDS Church-- Brighamites, if you will-- but have been inactive for most of my adult life.  (I am currently 35 years old.) 
               
              Anyway, I am not sure to what extent the role of "secret combinations" played in non-Brighamite, Mormon traditions.  I am sure it is there something somewhere considering the number of important Mormon leaders at Nauvoo who were Masons, member's of Joseph's "Holy Order" and/or "Council of Fifty," and who did not go west with Brigham.   The only quasi-Masonic order I am aware of outside of the Utah church is J.J. Strang's "Order of the Illumnati" and I don't know much about it. 
               
              Anyway, that's my thing.  I look forward to seeing what this group is all about.
               
              Regards,
              Paul C. Graham
            • Patlabb@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/9/2004 10:08:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, pcg@masonicmoroni.com writes: By way of introduction, my name is Paul C. Graham and I signed-up
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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                In a message dated 1/9/2004 10:08:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, pcg@... writes:
                By way of introduction, my name is Paul C. Graham and I signed-up for this group just after it was mentioned in the last John Whitmer Historical Association Newsletter. 
                 
                I live in Columbia, South Carolina--
                Well, Indos time:
                I am Patrick C. Labbe, I live in Summerville, SC just west of Charleston SC. I am a member of the Community of Christ. I am a former MORMON having spent several years in that Church serving in various callings in the Florence, SC stake, I was also associated with the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints for a few years and the World Church of Jesus Christ for a few years. I joined the CofC last year but have attended the congregation in Charleston for about 1 1/2 years...  I'm an avid student of history and have studied the movement's history in depth. I hold an undergraduate degree in History from the University of the state of New York as well as an undergraduate degree and graduate degree in Nursing...I also hold an Associate degree in Paralegal Studies as well.
                Let's here from others on this group!
                 

                Patrick
                www.hometown.aol.com/patlabb

                Building Communities of Joy, Peace, Hope and Love....
                Construire les Communautés de Joie, la Paix, l'Espoir et l'Amour. ...

                The Community of Christ

                http://www.cofchrist.org/












              • Howlett, David James (UMKC-Student)
                Dear Paul, You have an interesting historical hobby. There is a new book out from Columbia University Press that you might be interested in; it is called
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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                  Dear Paul,

                  You have an interesting historical hobby. There is a new book out from Columbia University Press that you might be interested in; it is called "Equal Rites" with a subtitle that I can't remember, but it is something about Mormonism and Masonry. I'm a graduate student in history at UMKC and live in Independence, Missouri. As an RLDS specialist, I can tell masonry for many contemporary conservative RLDS members is seen as a "secret combination" in the pejorative sense. Nevertheless, many older RLDS members, including many conservatives, were or are masons. David Bowerman, a conuselor to the First Presidency in the newly formed Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (about 1,000 members) is a mason, as is are many other officers in the church. The most famous RLDS mason is Frederick Madison Smith, RLDS prophet from 1915 to 1946 and grandson of Joseph Smith, Jr. Paul Edwards and Larry Hunt both provide an excellent context for Smith's masonic association in their biographies of Smith (available from Herlad House). Smith was attracted to masonry apparently due to his attraction to ritual and his desire to find fraternity in a group where he was not always being second-guessed or criticized. In addition, he could associate with men who had like levels of education as himself (he held a PhD in psychology) as well as find importance for in a role other than as "prophet" of the RLDS church. I don't know of any single mongraphs on F.M. Smith's masonry (other than the few paragraphs Hunt and Edwards devote to it in their books), but it would be interesting for someone to do research into this aspect of Smith in light of the Nauvoo experience and F.M. Smith's repudiation of this "Mormon/Masonic" heritage religiously.

                  Best wishes on your research,
                  David Howlett
                • Jason R. Smith
                  David - I think that would be a great topic to research. I, myself, have thought about that. I have noticed several comments in 1920 s era issues of *Zion s
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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                    David -

                    I think that would be a great topic to research. I, myself, have thought
                    about that. I have noticed several comments in 1920's era issues of *Zion's
                    Advocate* (Church of Christ - Temple Lot magazine) that equated Fred M.'s
                    masonic involvement with "secret combinations." I also came across an
                    interesting cartoon in the clippings archives at the Community of Christ
                    library which showed Fred M. being led by a masonic "cable-tow." Pulling
                    the cable-tow, of course, was the devil. I don't remember if I made a copy
                    or not, but I'll make a note to get one next time I'm in town.

                    On an unrelated note, Bowerman is now THE counselor in the Remnant Church's
                    FP. I found out during my recent visit there that the other counselor,
                    Buchman, has resigned.

                    Jason


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Howlett, David James (UMKC-Student)" <djhmf2@...>

                    > Dear Paul,
                    >
                    > You have an interesting historical hobby. There is a new book out from
                    Columbia University Press that you might be interested in; it is called
                    "Equal Rites" with a subtitle that I can't remember, but it is something
                    about Mormonism and Masonry. I'm a graduate student in history at UMKC and
                    live in Independence, Missouri. As an RLDS specialist, I can tell masonry
                    for many contemporary conservative RLDS members is seen as a "secret
                    combination" in the pejorative sense. Nevertheless, many older RLDS members,
                    including many conservatives, were or are masons. David Bowerman, a
                    conuselor to the First Presidency in the newly formed Remnant Church of
                    Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (about 1,000 members) is a mason, as is
                    are many other officers in the church. The most famous RLDS mason is
                    Frederick Madison Smith, RLDS prophet from 1915 to 1946 and grandson of
                    Joseph Smith, Jr. Paul Edwards and Larry Hunt both provide an excellent
                    context for Smith's masonic association in their biographies of Smith
                    (available from Herlad House). Smith was attracted to masonry apparently due
                    to his attraction to ritual and his desire to find fraternity in a group
                    where he was not always being second-guessed or criticized. In addition, he
                    could associate with men who had like levels of education as himself (he
                    held a PhD in psychology) as well as find importance for in a role other
                    than as "prophet" of the RLDS church. I don't know of any single mongraphs
                    on F.M. Smith's masonry (other than the few paragraphs Hunt and Edwards
                    devote to it in their books), but it would be interesting for someone to do
                    research into this aspect of Smith in light of the Nauvoo experience and
                    F.M. Smith's repudiation of this "Mormon/Masonic" heritage religiously.
                    >
                    > Best wishes on your research,
                    > David Howlett
                  • Erin Jennings
                    John, The Cutlerites would not admit to it if you simply asked them. However, if you use certain code words I believe that you may get better results if
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 9, 2004
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                      John,
                      The Cutlerites would not "admit" to it if you simply asked them.  However, if you use certain "code words" I believe that you may get better results if you questioned them.  I am good friends with Virginia Lane (daughter of Daisy Whiting & Rupert Fletcher) but I have never attempted to ask her anything about this, not yet at least- maybe on my next trip to Independence.
                      Erin

                      John Hamer <jhamer@...> wrote:
                      Welcome Paul --
                       
                      I've just been looking through your website.  It looks like you've created an excellent resource for research in this interesting and important topic.  It's very interesting to have someone approach the topic as a practicing Mason / cultural Mormon (non-practicing).
                       
                      I'm sure I know much less about the persistance of Masonic influence in the non-Brighamite branches of the Mormon Restoration than you and many others on this board and I'm excited to hear what information you uncover about the Order of Illuminati, etc. 
                       
                      In addition to the Nauvoo-era endowment and the post-Kirtland temples, it seems like much of the "kingdom" ceremonial in Mormonism may have been drawn from Masonry.  I wonder the extent to which some of James Strang and Brigham Young's later ceremonies may have been informed by their followers knowledge of Masonic ceremony.
                       
                      I know the Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite) retained the Nauvoo-era endowment and performed the ceremony in the upper story of their meeting houses in Clitherall and Independence.  I don't know if it's still performed.  Alpheus Cutler also drew upon his membership in the Council of the Fifty to preserve among his followers the Kingdom power -- which (to my understanding) they hold in trust for Christ's return in the Second Coming. 
                       
                      Best wishes,
                      John Hamer
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:09 AM
                      Subject: [LDSgroups] REPLY: Anyone out there still kicking?

                      Hello LDSgroupites -
                       
                      This was the first blip on my computer screen from this group since I signed-up.  I had almost forgot I had signed-up, but it is all coming back to me now... 
                       
                      By way of introduction, my name is Paul C. Graham and I signed-up for this group just after it was mentioned in the last John Whitmer Historical Association Newsletter. 
                       
                      I live in Columbia, South Carolina-- actually, in Cayce, SC which is on the west side of  the Congarree River which seperates my town from the Capital City.  For money, I am an employee for the State of SC in their Retirement System and a Part-Time Philosophy Instructor at a local community college.  Currently teaching Introduction to Formal Logic.  I am actively involved in the Masonic community here in SC. I was Worshipful Master of my lodge last year ( http://www.mastermason.com/fortjacksonlodge374/ ) and am serving this year as the President of the South Carolina Masonic Research Society ( www.scmrs.org ).  There are other things I'm doing, but I do not want to bore you with the details.  This leads me to the next paragraph...    
                       
                      I am interested in early Mormon history, particularily the role of Freemasonry in the tradition and even more particularily Freemasonry during the Nauvoo era.  I am the web master of a site called "The Masonic Moroni" ( www.masonicmoroni.com ).  I was raised in the LDS Church-- Brighamites, if you will-- but have been inactive for most of my adult life.  (I am currently 35 years old.) 
                       
                      Anyway, I am not sure to what extent the role of "secret combinations" played in non-Brighamite, Mormon traditions.  I am sure it is there something somewhere considering the number of important Mormon leaders at Nauvoo who were Masons, member's of Joseph's "Holy Order" and/or "Council of Fifty," and who did not go west with Brigham.   The only quasi-Masonic order I am aware of outside of the Utah church is J.J. Strang's "Order of the Illumnati" and I don't know much about it. 
                       
                      Anyway, that's my thing.  I look forward to seeing what this group is all about.
                       
                      Regards,
                      Paul C. Graham


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                    • Patlabb@aol.com
                      Pat, ... Never did serve a mission. I converted to the LDS Church from Islam in 1987. I was a member until 1997 (officially). During my some ten years in the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 10, 2004
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                        Pat,
                        > I remember you from Restoration L. I used to be LDS too. I didn't
                        > realize that you were. Just out of curiosity; did you ever go on a
                        > mission?
                        >
                        > Shane
                        Never did serve a mission. I converted to the LDS Church from Islam in 1987. I was a member until 1997 (officially). During my some ten years in the Mormon Church I served as a Branch President, a member of the Stake Mission Presidency and Stake Sunday School Presidency among other "callings." I never served a mission. One of the things that drove me from the LDS Church was the Temple rituals and it's similarities to the Masonic ritual.  I have been a Mason since 1993 and am both a Knight Templar-YORK RITE and a 32nd degree-Scottish Rite. In 1994 I began "looking" for another Church and was drawn to the Restoration Movement. In 1996 I sent a "resignation letter" to the LDS Church which was not accepted but subsequently in 1997 I was excommunicated for apostasy. In December of 1996 I was baptized into the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints (Marcus Juby's group). I was ordained an Elder in early 1997 in that church and became Pastor of the Dillon, SC branch. In 1999, after much ado about the financial wrangling of Marcus Juby, I joined the world Church of Jesus Christ led by Joseph Kalin and Jack Ferguson. Joe had been President of the Twelve in Juby's Church and Jack had been a counselor in the First Presidency. In 2000, I was called to the office of Seventy in the WCJC and went to Asia and helped establish branches in the Philippines. Last year that church all but fell apart and I left it. I along with my entire family was baptized into the Community of Christ. I am a member of the Charleston, SC congregation and am spearheading the missionary work in this area....  
                        Patrick
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