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REPLY: Booklet - *Is God and Christ One Person?* by Wm. F. An...

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  • Patlabb@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/20/2003 8:53:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... How can Jesus and the Father be the same person? They are separate distinct personalities
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 21, 2003
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      In a message dated 11/20/2003 8:53:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, brockhollett@... writes:

      I know that some Latter-day Saint apologists have argued that Jesus is not the heavenly Father per se, but only a "father" in the sense that he begot heaven and earth and is therefore distinct from the Father.� However, is there any doubt when Jesus settles the issue by telling the prophet Moroni, “He that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me.� For behold, I am the Father.” (Ether 1:107-108 RLDS)?� Does the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot interpret this Scripture apart from its immediate context?� Please give me your take on this passage.


      How can Jesus and the Father be the same person?� They are separate distinct personalities of the same Godhood. There are three separate yet unified personages. Joseph saw TWO of them in the Sacred Grove.

      Patrick
      www.hometown.aol.com/patlabb

      "Je me souviens"









    • William Sheldon
      Brock: We have no problem with Eth. 1: 107-108 nor associated verses. It is very plain here that someone (the Father of Christ) sent Him. But of course, He
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 21, 2003
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        Brock:
        We have no problem with Eth. 1: 107-108 nor associated verses.� It is very plain here that someone (the Father of Christ) sent Him.� But of course, He also is a Father; indeed the Father of all humankind, in the same sense that the human fathers of Israel, who are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with his sons, are the fathers of their descendants, and in the same sense that I (a father) once had a father (who is dead).
        I may be wrong, but I have received what seems to be a belief with some one-person-God believers that� God (the Father of all) is assumed by those who hold to the belief in three distinct personages in the godhead that He (the Father of all) is possessed of a fleshly body.� The "Mormons"� (SLC brand) do indeed believe in God having a fleshly body.� We do not.�� He is a personage of Spirit, yet that Spirit may appear exactly as a being with a body of flesh and blood, just as it was with Christ when He appeared to the brother of Jared.� What the brother of Jared beheld was Christ in his spirit form, and which form was just as He would appear to men some 2000 years later, but in the flesh.
        Now I will express my personal belief based on the scriptures that there was a time (though time is really only measured unto mankind) when Christ WAS NOT existent as an identifiable being.� Then, in the eternity before creation,� Christ was BEGOTTEN of God, the Son of God, the ONLY BEGOTTEN� of the Father.� True, He was begotten of the Holy Ghost which overshadowed Mary, and thus was begotten in the flesh.� But just as truly, He was begotten of His Father in the beginning In fact, He is also identified as the FIRST� BEGOTTEN (see 1 Heb. 1: 5, 6).��� All other live beings, as well as all inanimate substance, was created by Christ.� So far as that FIRST BEGOTTEN process is concerned, Christ said: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending... I am Alpha and Omega, the first and� the last" (Rev. 1: 8, 11).� HE IS THE FIRST OF ALL CREATION, and the last being directly created of God His Father.� All else was created by Jesus Christ under the direction (supervision) of� God, His Heavenly Father.�� It is in this sense that we find it recorded in Gen. 1: 26:� "Let US make man in OUR IMAGE".
        In connection with the above, see Ps. 1: 7,� Ps. 45: 6, 7 and Heb. 1: 8-10.�
        William Sheldon

        Brock D. Hollett wrote:
        William:
        I know that some Latter-day Saint apologists have argued that Jesus is not the heavenly Father per se, but only a "father" in the sense that he begot heaven and earth and is therefore distinct from the�Father.However, is�there�any doubt when�Jesus settles the issue by telling the prophet Moroni , �He that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me.For behold, I am the Father.� (Ether 1:107-108 RLDS)?� Does the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot interpret this Scripture apart from its immediate context?� Please give me your take on this passage.

        William Sheldon wrote:
        Brock:
        A very easy answer:� Jesus Christ is our Father because He created us under the overall supervision and power of His Father, Who is thus, also, our Heavenly Father.� ("Our Father which art in heaven"...).� I suggest you examine all statements made by Jesus in prayer to, and with regard to,� His Heavenly Father, especially as found most numerously in the gospel record of John.� W.A.S.

        Brock D. Hollett wrote:
        William -

        What does the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot do with the many passages in the Book of Mormon where Jesus is described as the Father?

        Brock Hollett

        William Sheldon wrote:
        The Elijah Message church is a second generation break-off from this Church of Christ on the Temple Lot, having developed from the Church of Christ which was initiated through Otto Fetting.. W. A. Draves claimed to receive messages from John the Baptist after the death of Fetting. The Fettingites accept only the 30 messages thru Fetting.� The� followers of� the Draves messages later split from the Fettingites..� Yes, I understand the EM Church believes in the one-person-God doctrine.
        Fetting's break off had no connection with the godhead question; rather, it was in the messages.
        To say this Church of Christ (TL) believes in three Gods is not correct.�� We believe in ONE God, but which is composed of three distinct personages or beings: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.� For example: we accept the account of Joseph Smith having seen two persons in the beginning of this work.� The distinct personality of the Holy Ghost is problematic.� He is the "other Comforter" spoken of by Jesus, but He appeared as a dove at the baptism of Jesus, and again, as a man in Nephi's vision.� He is to lead the followers of Jesus into all truth, and bears witness of both the Father and the Son.� These three personages may each be properly designated as "God", and they are in perfect unity (ONE GOD) in the creative process and the plan of salvation; and THEY only are worthy of our worship.� In our Indep. Edition of the Book of Mormon, the distinct personalities are perfectly and understandably presented in 2 Nephi 13: 8-26.� A humanistic understanding is couched in the comparable relationship of� a man and a woman in marriage: they are supposed to be "one".� Does anybody need an elaboration on that point?��� I hope and trust this truly reflects the position of the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot., though there may be a few individualistic exceptions.� William A. Sheldon

        EarlyRR@... wrote:
        Hello
        �Is it correct that the Church of Christ with the Elijah Message is a break-off from the
        �Temple Lot Church, and the issue causing the break-off was the concept of the
        �Godhead?� From what I have been told, the C of C with the Elijah Message believes
        �in one God (one person) and the C of C Temple Lot believes in 3 separate Gods?
        �(But neither believes in the Trinity)?�
        Thanks!
        �Mirl Edwards
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        In a message dated 11/10/2003 8:21:58 PM Central Standard Time, cofctl@... writes:
        Jason:� This pamphlet was published by the Church of Christ some time in the 1930s, in answer to Wood's philosophy that there is only one person in the godhead, who is Jesus Christ.. This has not been a live issue in the Church since that general period of time, and the pamphlet is no longer published.�� Of course, Anderson took the opposing view, which was not� noted in your statement below.. It seems that false doctrine will not "down".� We do have a more defined booklet yet in stock by Willard J. Smith entitled, "What The Restortion Movement Teaches Concerning God".� William Sheldon

        Jason R. Smith wrote:
        I just came across a booklet with the above title and I'm assuming it was published by the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) since it has their PO Box number listed as the address for Mr. Anderson and since he was an apostle of that church.� Does this mean it was published "by" the church?
        The booklet addresses the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one PERSON, which is what is alleged to have been taught by Samuel Wood and others, Wood also being ordained an apostle of the COC-TL about the same time.
        Can anyone tell me what year this came out and if it was an official church publication?
        Thanks,
        Jason






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        Brock D. Hollett

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      • Brock D. Hollett
        Joseph Smith taught modalism (one God; one Person with three titles) until 1834-35. The Book of Mormon supports this view Then he taught binitarianism (one
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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          Joseph Smith taught modalism (one God; one Person with three titles) until 1834-35. The Book of Mormon supports this view� Then he taught binitarianism (one God; two Persons; the Spirit not a Person).� Then in the Nauvoo period he was polytheistic (many gods; men reach exaltation).�The original First Vision account by Smith does not mention two Persons, but only one--Jesus.

          Patlabb@... wrote:
          In a message dated 11/20/2003 8:53:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, brockhollett@... writes:

          I know that some Latter-day Saint apologists have argued that Jesus is not the heavenly Father per se, but only a "father" in the sense that he begot heaven and earth and is therefore distinct from the Father.� However, is there any doubt when Jesus settles the issue by telling the prophet Moroni, ���He that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me.� For behold, I am the Father.��� (Ether 1:107-108 RLDS)?� Does the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot interpret this Scripture apart from its immediate context?� Please give me your take on this passage.


          How can Jesus and the Father be the same person?� They are separate distinct personalities of the same Godhood. There are three separate yet unified personages. Joseph saw TWO of them in the Sacred Grove.

          Patrick
          www.hometown.aol.com/patlabb

          "Je me souviens"











          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          LDSgroups-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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          Brock D. Hollett


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        • Brock D. Hollett
          Does the Church of Christ Temple Lot teach that Jesus Christ is a created being or that he is eternal? Does it teach in agreement with the Ecumenical Creeds
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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            Does the Church of Christ Temple Lot teach that Jesus Christ is a created being or that he is eternal?�Does it�teach in agreement with the Ecumenical Creeds that�he was "begotten, not created"?�Does it teach the Personhood of the Holy Spirit? (Note: I am using "Person" in the sense of�seperate identity, not a human physical being.)�Does the church believe in the Trinity? I will post my paper on Joseph Smith's evolving concept of the Godhead onto the other website as soon as I finish my final draft.����

            William Sheldon wrote:
            Brock:
            We have no problem with Eth. 1: 107-108 nor associated verses.� It is very plain here that someone (the Father of Christ) sent Him.� But of course, He also is a Father; indeed the Father of all humankind, in the same sense that the human fathers of Israel, who are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with his sons, are the fathers of their descendants, and in the same sense that I (a father) once had a father (who is dead).
            I may be wrong, but I have received what seems to be a belief with some one-person-God believers that� God (the Father of all) is assumed by those who hold to the belief in three distinct personages in the godhead that He (the Father of all) is possessed of a fleshly body.� The "Mormons"� (SLC brand) do indeed believe in God having a fleshly body.� We do not.�� He is a personage of Spirit, yet that Spirit may appear exactly as a being with a body of flesh and blood, just as it was with Christ when He appeared to the brother of Jared.� What the brother of Jared beheld was Christ in his spirit form, and which form was just as He would appear to men some 2000 years later, but in the flesh.
            Now I will express my personal belief based on the scriptures that there was a time (though time is really only measured unto mankind) when Christ WAS NOT existent as an identifiable being.� Then, in the eternity before creation,� Christ was BEGOTTEN of God, the Son of God, the ONLY BEGOTTEN� of the Father.� True, He was begotten of the Holy Ghost which overshadowed Mary, and thus was begotten in the flesh.� But just as truly, He was begotten of His Father in the beginning In fact, He is also identified as the FIRST� BEGOTTEN (see 1 Heb. 1: 5, 6).��� All other live beings, as well as all inanimate substance, was created by Christ.� So far as that FIRST BEGOTTEN process is concerned, Christ said: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending... I am Alpha and Omega, the first and� the last" (Rev. 1: 8, 11).� HE IS THE FIRST OF ALL CREATION, and the last being directly created of God His Father.� All else was created by Jesus Christ under the direction (supervision) of� God, His Heavenly Father.�� It is in this sense that we find it recorded in Gen. 1: 26:� "Let US make man in OUR IMAGE".
            In connection with the above, see Ps. 1: 7,� Ps. 45: 6, 7 and Heb. 1: 8-10.�
            William Sheldon

            Brock D. Hollett wrote:
            William:
            I know that some Latter-day Saint apologists have argued that Jesus is not the heavenly Father per se, but only a "father" in the sense that he begot heaven and earth and is therefore distinct from the�Father.However, is�there�any doubt when�Jesus settles the issue by telling the prophet Moroni , �He that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me.For behold, I am the Father.� (Ether 1:107-108 RLDS)?� Does the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot interpret this Scripture apart from its immediate context?� Please give me your take on this passage.

            William Sheldon wrote:
            Brock:
            A very easy answer:� Jesus Christ is our Father because He created us under the overall supervision and power of His Father, Who is thus, also, our Heavenly Father.� ("Our Father which art in heaven"...).� I suggest you examine all statements made by Jesus in prayer to, and with regard to,� His Heavenly Father, especially as found most numerously in the gospel record of John.� W.A.S.

            Brock D. Hollett wrote:
            William -

            What does the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot do with the many passages in the Book of Mormon where Jesus is described as the Father?

            Brock Hollett

            William Sheldon wrote:
            The Elijah Message church is a second generation break-off from this Church of Christ on the Temple Lot, having developed from the Church of Christ which was initiated through Otto Fetting.. W. A. Draves claimed to receive messages from John the Baptist after the death of Fetting. The Fettingites accept only the 30 messages thru Fetting.� The� followers of� the Draves messages later split from the Fettingites..� Yes, I understand the EM Church believes in the one-person-God doctrine.
            Fetting's break off had no connection with the godhead question; rather, it was in the messages.
            To say this Church of Christ (TL) believes in three Gods is not correct.�� We believe in ONE God, but which is composed of three distinct personages or beings: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.� For example: we accept the account of Joseph Smith having seen two persons in the beginning of this work.� The distinct personality of the Holy Ghost is problematic.� He is the "other Comforter" spoken of by Jesus, but He appeared as a dove at the baptism of Jesus, and again, as a man in Nephi's vision.� He is to lead the followers of Jesus into all truth, and bears witness of both the Father and the Son.� These three personages may each be properly designated as "God", and they are in perfect unity (ONE GOD) in the creative process and the plan of salvation; and THEY only are worthy of our worship.� In our Indep. Edition of the Book of Mormon, the distinct personalities are perfectly and understandably presented in 2 Nephi 13: 8-26.� A humanistic understanding is couched in the comparable relationship of� a man and a woman in marriage: they are supposed to be "one".� Does anybody need an elaboration on that point?��� I hope and trust this truly reflects the position of the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot., though there may be a few individualistic exceptions.� William A. Sheldon

            EarlyRR@... wrote:
            Hello
            �Is it correct that the Church of Christ with the Elijah Message is a break-off from the
            �Temple Lot Church, and the issue causing the break-off was the concept of the
            �Godhead?� From what I have been told, the C of C with the Elijah Message believes
            �in one God (one person) and the C of C Temple Lot believes in 3 separate Gods?
            �(But neither believes in the Trinity)?�
            Thanks!
            �Mirl Edwards
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            In a message dated 11/10/2003 8:21:58 PM Central Standard Time, cofctl@... writes:
            Jason:� This pamphlet was published by the Church of Christ some time in the 1930s, in answer to Wood's philosophy that there is only one person in the godhead, who is Jesus Christ.. This has not been a live issue in the Church since that general period of time, and the pamphlet is no longer published.�� Of course, Anderson took the opposing view, which was not� noted in your statement below.. It seems that false doctrine will not "down".� We do have a more defined booklet yet in stock by Willard J. Smith entitled, "What The Restortion Movement Teaches Concerning God".� William Sheldon

            Jason R. Smith wrote:
            I just came across a booklet with the above title and I'm assuming it was published by the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) since it has their PO Box number listed as the address for Mr. Anderson and since he was an apostle of that church.� Does this mean it was published "by" the church?
            The booklet addresses the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one PERSON, which is what is alleged to have been taught by Samuel Wood and others, Wood also being ordained an apostle of the COC-TL about the same time.
            Can anyone tell me what year this came out and if it was an official church publication?
            Thanks,
            Jason






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            Brock D. Hollett

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            Brock D. Hollett


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