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OT: Mono or Stereo for Live Performance

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  • markp0321
    First, thank you to all who responded to my question regarding Kurzweils and tube preamps. All of the responses were helpful. One response prompted this second
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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      First, thank you to all who responded to my question regarding
      Kurzweils and tube preamps. All of the responses were helpful. One
      response prompted this second question.

      Second, what is the best way to run my K2000 (and Korg CX-3) for
      gigs--mono or stereo? As I've posted before, I'm a recent keyboard
      player. While stereo might sound best at home, I'm not sure how
      realistic it is for a performance (e.g., most instruments--guitars,
      drums, bass--are mono and the PA runs in mono for reinforcement).

      Thank you.
    • Frank W. Kooistra
      It is sad to see that most PA are plain mono and just loud I have been in PA business (foh and monitor just doing the board..) and was always at least stereo
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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        It is sad to see that most PA are plain mono and just loud

        I have been in PA business (foh and monitor just doing the board..) and was always at least stereo Even on stage.

        Advice fotr on stage : give yourself a dry mix : without FX. This way you cane hear exactly what you play and when you play it. Timing is important on stage. Let the guy FOH give the proper fx .. or give the foh the mix with fx ..
        If you want to hear how swell you sound , make sure you have a dry mix from speakers close and the wet mix from speakers a bit further away.

        Best is to have inear monitor mixing aka a isolating headphone .. . This way one can keep the onstage levels low so the PA has something to do.. ( i have had groups where i could only add some reverb, all was too load off stage.
        while playing and you cannot hear yourself, do not raise the volume, lower the others in your monitor mix. Remember when you are deaf you cannot play anymore : so loud volumes less than 90 minutes @24 hours.. So skip the sound check where you can : take care you have tuned the PA stacks properly

        On live mixes i have been keeping the inner stack almost completely dry and the outher stack with FX. Vocals stay crisp and clear that way.

        I lovely stereo rhodes sound you get : pan dry rhodes extreme left, and detuned with a flanger ( ONLY FX NO DRY sorry for caps) extreme right. same level. wobble the detuning a mit a,d you get the comb filtering lovely in the hall , or in your head ..

        of course doing everything stereo means extra work , but we do want to sound good do't we ?
        a leslie : mike them xy from one position one mike see the coming horn, one see the going

        etc ..

        regards
        frank


        markp0321 <markp0321@...> wrote:


        gigs--mono or stereo?
        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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      • Karsten J. Chikuri
        Depending on the kind of performance you are planning -- a stereo PA mix can actually cause problems... Unless you are using a speaker array - which is
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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          Depending on the kind of performance you are planning -- a stereo PA mix can
          actually cause problems... Unless you are using a speaker array - which is
          basically impossible in most 'bar gig' settings.

          In those situations, and depending on how the speakers are aimed in relation
          to the audience area.. A stereo mix can cause 'ghosting'... Depending on
          where you stand/sit in the club, the mix will change... In some cases,
          instruments can completely disappear because you are hearing one speaker or
          the other and not always hearing both (and at the same time).


          Or you can get the new Bose PAS system and just do away with the PA
          altogether. :-)

          Sincerely,
          Karsten J. Chikuri


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Frank W. Kooistra [mailto:teepling@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 9:24 AM
          > To: markp0321; KurzList@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [KL] OT: Mono or Stereo for Live Performance
          >
          >
          > It is sad to see that most PA are plain mono and just loud
          >
          > I have been in PA business (foh and monitor just doing the
          > board..) and was always at least stereo Even on stage.
          >
          > Advice fotr on stage : give yourself a dry mix : without FX.
          > This way you cane hear exactly what you play and when you
          > play it. Timing is important on stage. Let the guy FOH give
          > the proper fx .. or give the foh the mix with fx ..
          > If you want to hear how swell you sound , make sure you have
          > a dry mix from speakers close and the wet mix from speakers a
          > bit further away.
          >
          > Best is to have inear monitor mixing aka a isolating
          > headphone .. . This way one can keep the onstage levels low
          > so the PA has something to do.. ( i have had groups where i
          > could only add some reverb, all was too load off stage.
          > while playing and you cannot hear yourself, do not raise the
          > volume, lower the others in your monitor mix. Remember when
          > you are deaf you cannot play anymore : so loud volumes less
          > than 90 minutes @24 hours.. So skip the sound check where you
          > can : take care you have tuned the PA stacks properly
          >
          > On live mixes i have been keeping the inner stack almost
          > completely dry and the outher stack with FX. Vocals stay
          > crisp and clear that way.
          >
          > I lovely stereo rhodes sound you get : pan dry rhodes extreme
          > left, and detuned with a flanger ( ONLY FX NO DRY sorry for
          > caps) extreme right. same level. wobble the detuning a mit
          > a,d you get the comb filtering lovely in the hall , or in
          > your head ..
          >
          > of course doing everything stereo means extra work , but we
          > do want to sound good do't we ?
          > a leslie : mike them xy from one position one mike see the
          > coming horn, one see the going
          >
          > etc ..
          >
          > regards
          > frank
          >
          >
          > markp0321 <markp0321@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > gigs--mono or stereo?
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        • Jon Stubbs
          The mono or stereo question depends partly on your sounds. What happens if some of the audience will hear only one side? Try to imagine you are one of a bunch
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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            The mono or stereo question depends partly on your sounds.
            What happens if some of the audience will hear only one side?
            Try to imagine you are one of a bunch of audience members
            who will only be hearing, say, the left channel. What will they hear?
            If have duplicate layers that are detuned and spread, or if
            you have a panner or leslie, what will they hear? An out-of-tune
            sound with not much chorusing? A sound that comes and goes for
            no musical reason? The question of mono or stereo has partly
            to do with that.

            The other factor is the house. First, as mentioned, do they even
            provide stereo. Second, will most of the audience hear a stereo
            image from to two speaker-sides? Does the stereo in the room
            actually work?

            In general if I have done some glorious sound design that has
            significant placement and stereo-phonic sweeps, I'll offer
            stereo. If I'm playing a regular old gig, I'm a little more
            protective that the audience hear the complete sound no
            matter where they are. A little voice in my head says
            "Stereo-Shmereo, let them hear the content."
          • Frank W. Kooistra
            Karsten J. Chikuri wrote: Depending on the kind of performance you are planning -- a stereo PA mix can actually cause problemsIn those
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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              "Karsten J. Chikuri" <chikurk@...> wrote:
              Depending on the kind of performance you are planning -- a stereo PA mix can
              actually cause problemsIn those situations, and depending on how the speakers are aimed in relationto the audience area.. A stereo mix can cause 'ghosting'... Depending on
              where you stand/sit in the club, the mix will change... In some cases,
              instruments can completely disappear because you are hearing one speaker or
              the other and not always hearing both (and at the same time).


              I do not agree with this : specially the mono pa will always create an untrue image of the band..

              Usually one sees the band jump to the speaker closest : You see a singer in front but he comes out left or right ..

              with a stereo or multi channel setup you have more control .. You can put back the musicians on stage where they are..

              If that is not the case in your set up : get a better guy behind the board ..

              regards

              Frank




              Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • markp0321
              Thank you for the many responses to my inquiry. Many of you mention FOH, soundmen etc. I wish! To be more specific, I m trying to determine the best way to run
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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                Thank you for the many responses to my inquiry. Many of you mention
                FOH, soundmen etc. I wish! To be more specific, I'm trying to
                determine the best way to run a keyboard rig for small gigs--typical
                barroom stuff (e.g., 50 - 250 people).

                --- In KurzList@yahoogroups.com, "markp0321" <markp0321@y...> wrote:
                >
                > First, thank you to all who responded to my question regarding
                > Kurzweils and tube preamps. All of the responses were helpful. One
                > response prompted this second question.
                >
                > Second, what is the best way to run my K2000 (and Korg CX-3) for
                > gigs--mono or stereo? As I've posted before, I'm a recent keyboard
                > player. While stereo might sound best at home, I'm not sure how
                > realistic it is for a performance (e.g., most instruments--
                guitars,
                > drums, bass--are mono and the PA runs in mono for reinforcement).
                >
                > Thank you.
              • chippedeight
                If each of your stereo speakers are at least 1/3 of the distance from the nearest side wall in the audience area and they re elevated enough to provide
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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                  If each of your stereo speakers are at least 1/3 of the distance
                  from the nearest side wall in the audience area and they're elevated
                  enough to provide line-of-sight coverage across most of the room,
                  it's likely to work. If you have large areas that can only be
                  covered by one speaker your results will be unpredictable at best.

                  Chipp Tate


                  --- In KurzList@yahoogroups.com, "markp0321" <markp0321@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you for the many responses to my inquiry. Many of you
                  mention
                  > FOH, soundmen etc. I wish! To be more specific, I'm trying to
                  > determine the best way to run a keyboard rig for small gigs--
                  typical
                  > barroom stuff (e.g., 50 - 250 people).
                  >
                  > --- In KurzList@yahoogroups.com, "markp0321" <markp0321@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > > First, thank you to all who responded to my question regarding
                  > > Kurzweils and tube preamps. All of the responses were helpful.
                  One
                  > > response prompted this second question.
                  > >
                  > > Second, what is the best way to run my K2000 (and Korg CX-3) for
                  > > gigs--mono or stereo? As I've posted before, I'm a recent
                  keyboard
                  > > player. While stereo might sound best at home, I'm not sure how
                  > > realistic it is for a performance (e.g., most instruments--
                  > guitars,
                  > > drums, bass--are mono and the PA runs in mono for
                  reinforcement).
                  > >
                  > > Thank you.
                • Karsten J. Chikuri
                  ... Yes - you (the engineer) may have more control... What sense is more control if the audience only hears the left or the right channel? Like I said
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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                    > I do not agree with this : specially the mono pa will always
                    > create an untrue image of the band..
                    >
                    > Usually one sees the band jump to the speaker closest : You
                    > see a singer in front but he comes out left or right ..
                    >
                    > with a stereo or multi channel setup you have more control ..
                    > You can put back the musicians on stage where they are..
                    >
                    > If that is not the case in your set up : get a better guy
                    > behind the board ..
                    >
                    > regards
                    >
                    > Frank
                    >

                    Yes - you (the engineer) may have more control... What sense is more control
                    if the audience only hears the left or the right channel? Like I said
                    previously - I have no idea what you mean in regards to your definition of a
                    'gig' -- most people, like myself, think of clubs, bars and such. In those
                    situations - having a speaker array is impossible, for both financial and
                    logistical reasons. (there's often barely enough room for the band, let
                    alone multiple speaker set-ups)

                    I personally prefer to give the audience a mono mix for live work because,
                    in the end - I want to make sure that they get their money's worth - which
                    means, making sure that they hear all the performers. Stereo is nice - don't
                    get me wrong. But, in most instances in a gig setting, it's just that it's
                    not really necessary.

                    Sincerely,
                    Karsten J. Chikuri
                  • take two
                    Interesting topic. I just stopped working long enough to think about it, and .. stereo is nice in your living room. Also might be ok if you have a stationary
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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                      Interesting topic. I just stopped working long enough to think about it,
                      and .. stereo is nice in your living room. Also might be ok if you have a
                      stationary audience sitting midway between the two output points (speakers
                      or speaker stacks), like maybe for a concert. But for a live performance in
                      a club, I would think the sound would be too fragmented, depending on where
                      a listener happens to be at any moment.

                      I do a keyboard sequenced one-man-band deal, and I pump everything through
                      all output points (even when I add other musicians and singers). The
                      result, and this is one of my big selling points, is unmatched
                      control: the sound is always perfectly mixed and balanced, no matter where
                      you are in the room (or outside the room). Few bands can say that. I run
                      sound myself from the stage, and I don't use separate monitors in the
                      traditional sense because I want to hear exactly what the audience is hearing.

                      Just my two cents from "Take Two" land ...
                      Ted
                      www.TakeTwoBand.com
                    • Lee Sebel
                      My approach is thusly: Unless the gig is small and/or low volume, I currently use a pair of JBL Eon powered speakers (1st gen), running off the left and right
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 1, 2005
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                        My approach is thusly:

                        Unless the gig is small and/or low volume, I currently
                        use a pair of JBL Eon powered speakers (1st gen),
                        running off the left and right main outs of my K2500.

                        I stand 1 speaker up straight and put one slanted back,
                        so I get a bit of stereo feel while hearing enough to monitor
                        myself and I project a big sound with some movement
                        (especially on KB3/KDFX Leslie stuff) into the room.

                        I'm a rep for Phonic, so I'm planning on trying their soon
                        to be available wireless PA transmitter and wireless powered
                        speakers. The Eons are fine, but as with most JBL, they
                        start to honk when you push them. The previous Phonic
                        powered speaks sounded good, the new ones are lighter,
                        supposedly sound better, and are less expensive...and the thought of
                        not having
                        cable running between my keyboard and my speaks is intriguing
                        to say the least.

                        And while I'm blatantly self-promoting, I might as well mention
                        that you can hear my K2500 and pair of Eon's at Dragon's Lair
                        in Salt Lake City this coming Friday night.

                        With any luck I might break out my Minimoog Voyager as well.


                        Tonefully yours,

                        Lee Sebel / Cool Music Gear / 888-487-2166
                        Representing Manufacturers of Distinction since 1983
                        A Member of the FABS Marketing Group
                        >
                      • Paul
                        I have yet to find a venue where stereo doesn t work. Any jukebox you find is stereo, but the band has to be in mono?
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 2, 2005
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                          I have yet to find a venue where stereo doesn't work. Any jukebox you
                          find is stereo, but the band "has to" be in mono?
                        • Karsten J. Chikuri
                          ... Yes - it s true many jukeboxes are in stereo. However, the only sweet-spot on a jukebox (if using the internal speakers) is right in front of the jukebox.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 2, 2005
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                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Paul [mailto:paostby@...]
                            > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:42 PM
                            > To: KurzList@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [KL] Re: OT: Mono or Stereo for Live Performance
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I have yet to find a venue where stereo doesn't work. Any
                            > jukebox you find is stereo, but the band "has to" be in mono?
                            >
                            >

                            Yes - it's true many jukeboxes are in stereo. However, the only sweet-spot
                            on a jukebox (if using the internal speakers) is right in front of the
                            jukebox. If the club has external speakers hooked up to the jukebox - then
                            god knows where the sweet-spot is.

                            Sincerely,
                            Karsten J. Chikuri
                          • Jon Stubbs
                            Paul, The stereo in a juke box works is because anyone who is close enough to hear one channel hears both channels. The success of sending stereo depends on
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 3, 2005
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                              Paul,

                              The stereo in a juke box works is because anyone who is close
                              enough to hear one channel hears both channels.

                              The success of sending stereo depends on the venue/p.a.
                              Some venues have really good stereo rigs and some don't.

                              It's a numbers game. For example: out of 150 people, 75 people
                              might hear glorious stereo, 25 people hear only one channel,
                              and 50 people hear mostly one channel.

                              The other huge factor is what kind of sounds I'm sending.
                              I used to create really adventurous sounds with lots
                              of pan moves, swirly 3-d action, and wide spread
                              frequency specific stuff. And it was cool in a big P.A.

                              But I knew that some people were only getting one side of it.
                              And I knew that some people were getting a very big experience.

                              So the question of STEREO VS. MONO boils down to these questions three:

                              1. What do your sounds lose/gain by being in mono/stereo?
                              2. Does the venue & p.a. serve real stereo to most or all of the audience?
                              3. How important is it to serve all audience members the same experience?

                              Jon



                              >I have yet to find a venue where stereo doesn't work. Any jukebox you
                              >find is stereo, but the band "has to" be in mono?
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