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Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

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  • John Halucha
    Scrivener was a what (the Caspian Sea operation) but also a who . The who may or may not be related to the what . From Message #54694, Feb. 7, 2013:
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 3, 2013
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      Scrivener was a "what" (the Caspian Sea operation) but also a "who". The "who" may or may not be related to the "what". From Message #54694, Feb. 7, 2013:

      "Google shows, "This man was struck by what he heard and took Farran to see Peter Scrivener, the minister." on Page 105 of "Major Farran's Hat: The Untold Story of the Struggle to Establish the Jewish State".
      I don't know this book and I have never heard of a minister named Peter Scrivener, but he appears to have figured in the Middle East in 1947 so perhaps he was involved in the 1942 evacuation somehow?
      Grasping at straws here..."

      Still grasping at straws in hopes of someday fitting this piece into the gigantic jigsaw puzzle, so if anyone finds a connection between "what" and "who" it could be a clue. Maybe the 1947 minister was a bored clerk in 1942?

      John Halucha
      Sault Ste Marie, Canada


      From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 8:04:41 AM
      Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

       
      "However it still doesn't tell us who Scrivener was"

      Well, SCRIVENER wasn't a Who but rather a What. Operational names are
      supposedly chosen to hide their nature, though very often they don't.
      (It's pretty clear for example what OVERLORD was intended to do!)

      A scrivener is a clerk (actually, a 19th century clerk who wrote out
      documents in cursive), and I'll bet that a bored clerk in the War Office
      had to type up that document and when asked to put a name on the
      operation chose his weary profession.

      Those letters are certainly interesting! I've never seen a reference to
      them, and I think I have read every book published on this subject. --
      Dan Ford US


    • John Halucha
      Outstanding finds, Ewa and Frances. These are the first verifications I have seen of Operation Scrivener as mentioned by Wladyslaw Wojcik in his book Polish
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 3, 2013
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        Outstanding finds, Ewa and Frances.
        These are the first verifications I have seen of Operation Scrivener as mentioned by Wladyslaw Wojcik in his book Polish Spirit, p.148: "Over a period of eleven days beginning 25th March, a total of 43,858 Poles were evacuated, the first substantial body of my countrymen to emerge from within the Soviet Union since the events of September 1939. Of these, I was privileged to be on the very first ship out which carried virtually all of the 1387 airmen and sailors ear-marked for onward transfer to Great Britain under Operation Scrivener."
        Keith Sword explains that Operation Scrivener was for sailors and airmen only and that the larger operation including soldiers like my father was Operation Scalene. I suppose that the mass evacuation of Polish civilians would also be under Scalene, though that appears not to have been intended by the British military planners (or Stalin).
        This really clarifies a lot, explaining that Scrivener was probably not directly relevant to my father's evacuation. Even more significantly, it points the compass needle towards Scalene on this path to fuller understanding.
        Thank you very much.

        John Halucha
        Sault Ste Marie, Canada


        From: Frances <frncsgts@...>
        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 8:52:46 PM
        Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

         

        Thanks for posting this information Ewa - my father would have been on this ship.

        Further to previous discussion about Operation Scrivener (Scrivner) I have just found the information shown below. I can never manage to post a link so I'll just cut and paste the information.

        http://www.richardfordmanuscripts.co.uk/catalogue/3355

        Richard Ford
        Books, Printed Ephemera and Manuscripts
        3 typed documents relating to the evacuation of 10,000 Polish soldiers from Baghdad to Haifa.
        Author:
        British Tenth Army in Iraq [World War II]
        Publication details:
        January and February 1942.
        £125.00
        SKU: 3355

        ITEM 1. 1 page, approx. 6 1/2 inches by 8 inches. In good condition although creased and fraying, on thin, browning paper. Headed 'COPY of IMPORTANT / MOST SECRET Cipher No. Q/466 of 7/2 | from MILPAL to TENTH ARMY rptd MIDEAST.' In reply to a query from Lt Col. Ross, confirms a 'rate of evacuation 500 every 5 days. Propose using two convoys approx. 20 civilian busses each. Three days Haifa-Baghdad rest one day. Four days Baghdad-Haifa rest two days. Stage LG5 rations POL water both ways.' Two typewritten notes. Docketed in manuscript. ITEM 2. 1 page, approx. 8 1/2 inches by 13 1/2 inches. Grubby and creased, with some spotting and closed tears. Carbon with illegible copy of signature of Deputy Quatermaster General. Headed 'SECRET', and dated 12/2/42. Begins 'SCALENE AND SCRIVENER (.) AS A RESULT DISCUSSION WITH CAPT SCHLEE FOLLOWING IS PROPOSED (.)' Four proposals relating to evacuation follow. ('FOURTH (.) SCRIVENER POLES WILL BE ENTRAINED TEHRAN AND NOT REPEAT NOT KAZVIN TO AVOID POSSIBILITY DIFFICULTIES WITH RUSSIANS CONTROLLING KAZVIN TEHRAN RAILWAY'.) ITEM 3. 1 page, approx. 8 inches by 12 1/2 inches. In good condition, although creased and fraying, on thin, browning paper. Headed 'Copy of most secret cipher Tel. No Q/524 dated 17/2/42, from | PILMAL to TENTH ARMY rptd MIDEAST. | SCALENIE (MOST SECRET).' Puts six points regarding the evacuation, regarding rations, interpreters, busses, etc.

        RICHARD M. FORD
        Tel: +44 20 8993 1235

        However it still doesn't tell us who Scrivener was. More hunting needed.

        Frances
        Sydney

        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "ebard55" wrote:
        >
        > This information is from "Deportation and Exile Poles in the Soviet Union 1939-48" by Keith Sword ISBN-333-66860 pp.60-87
        > "The origins of the operation,which the British codenamed "Scalene" ...the first evacuation of General Anders' forces from the Soviet Union via Iran to the Middle East are both confused and controversial...
        > The decision to carry out an evacuation was finally reached in a key meeting between Sikorski and Stalin in Moscow on 3 December, 1941...
        > Stalin concede to a request from General Sikorski that Polish recruitment and training should be conducted in a region with a less severe climate... At the beginning of 1942, the Polish forces transferred from the Volga region to camps in Central Asia. The move took place over a five week period during January and February...Polish headquarters was reestablished at Yangi-Yul...However, Polish Army camps were now dispersed over a huge area...Hundreds of miles now separated the various divisional headquarters...Mid February, in an effort to force the pace of events, an Anglo-Polish advance party departed for Pahlevi...March...Stalin personally marked out a land and sea route which led across the Caspian Sea via Krasnovodsk...Executive order from Ander's headquarters for evacuation issued 23 March...The first ship Karamin left Krasnovodsk on 24 March...arrived in Pahlevi 25 March...1387 almost all sailors and airmen due for transfer to Great Britain (Operation Scrivner)...last transport carrying 1982 evacuees arrived in Pahlevi 5 April...accompanying this last contingent was General Boruta Spiechowicz...last convoys taking troops from Pahlevi left after a severe thunderstorm on 25 April...Military evacuees directed south and west by two routes...One route, taken by road, led via Quazvin and Hamadan to Khanaquin in Iraq and then onwards to Palestine where the troops linked up with Polish Middle Eastern Command. Another group was moved by Teheran by rail to the Persian Gulf. There some 1439 were transported by ship to Britain, while the remainder...almost 1000 were ferried to Palestine by way of the Suez Canal...Second Evacuation...the numbers of troops remaining in the Soviet Union at the beginning of April 1942 were 40,508...Stalin agreed to further recruitment...meeting in Tashkent on 29 March...It was agreed that three infantry divisions and various ancillary formations would be created."
        > Hope this helps - Ewa D. - Nevada
        >



      • Stanislaw Zwierzynski
        John! According soviet sources, the first transport to Pahlevi started from Krasnovodsk 24.03.42.  Stan from M.  ________________________________ From: John
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 3, 2013
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          John!
          According soviet sources, the first transport to Pahlevi started from Krasnovodsk 24.03.42.
           Stan from M. 


          From: John Halucha <john.halucha@...>
          To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 6:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

           
          Outstanding finds, Ewa and Frances.
          These are the first verifications I have seen of Operation Scrivener as mentioned by Wladyslaw Wojcik in his book Polish Spirit, p.148: "Over a period of eleven days beginning 25th March, a total of 43,858 Poles were evacuated, the first substantial body of my countrymen to emerge from within the Soviet Union since the events of September 1939. Of these, I was privileged to be on the very first ship out which carried virtually all of the 1387 airmen and sailors ear-marked for onward transfer to Great Britain under Operation Scrivener."
          Keith Sword explains that Operation Scrivener was for sailors and airmen only and that the larger operation including soldiers like my father was Operation Scalene. I suppose that the mass evacuation of Polish civilians would also be under Scalene, though that appears not to have been intended by the British military planners (or Stalin).
          This really clarifies a lot, explaining that Scrivener was probably not directly relevant to my father's evacuation. Even more significantly, it points the compass needle towards Scalene on this path to fuller understanding.
          Thank you very much.

          John Halucha
          Sault Ste Marie, Canada


          From: Frances <frncsgts@...>
          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 8:52:46 PM
          Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

           

          Thanks for posting this information Ewa - my father would have been on this ship.

          Further to previous discussion about Operation Scrivener (Scrivner) I have just found the information shown below. I can never manage to post a link so I'll just cut and paste the information.

          http://www.richardfordmanuscripts.co.uk/catalogue/3355

          Richard Ford
          Books, Printed Ephemera and Manuscripts
          3 typed documents relating to the evacuation of 10,000 Polish soldiers from Baghdad to Haifa.
          Author:
          British Tenth Army in Iraq [World War II]
          Publication details:
          January and February 1942.
          £125.00
          SKU: 3355

          ITEM 1. 1 page, approx. 6 1/2 inches by 8 inches. In good condition although creased and fraying, on thin, browning paper. Headed 'COPY of IMPORTANT / MOST SECRET Cipher No. Q/466 of 7/2 | from MILPAL to TENTH ARMY rptd MIDEAST.' In reply to a query from Lt Col. Ross, confirms a 'rate of evacuation 500 every 5 days. Propose using two convoys approx. 20 civilian busses each. Three days Haifa-Baghdad rest one day. Four days Baghdad-Haifa rest two days. Stage LG5 rations POL water both ways.' Two typewritten notes. Docketed in manuscript. ITEM 2. 1 page, approx. 8 1/2 inches by 13 1/2 inches. Grubby and creased, with some spotting and closed tears. Carbon with illegible copy of signature of Deputy Quatermaster General. Headed 'SECRET', and dated 12/2/42. Begins 'SCALENE AND SCRIVENER (.) AS A RESULT DISCUSSION WITH CAPT SCHLEE FOLLOWING IS PROPOSED (.)' Four proposals relating to evacuation follow. ('FOURTH (.) SCRIVENER POLES WILL BE ENTRAINED TEHRAN AND NOT REPEAT NOT KAZVIN TO AVOID POSSIBILITY DIFFICULTIES WITH RUSSIANS CONTROLLING KAZVIN TEHRAN RAILWAY'.) ITEM 3. 1 page, approx. 8 inches by 12 1/2 inches. In good condition, although creased and fraying, on thin, browning paper. Headed 'Copy of most secret cipher Tel. No Q/524 dated 17/2/42, from | PILMAL to TENTH ARMY rptd MIDEAST. | SCALENIE (MOST SECRET).' Puts six points regarding the evacuation, regarding rations, interpreters, busses, etc.

          RICHARD M. FORD
          Tel: +44 20 8993 1235

          However it still doesn't tell us who Scrivener was. More hunting needed.

          Frances
          Sydney

          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "ebard55" wrote:
          >
          > This information is from "Deportation and Exile Poles in the Soviet Union 1939-48" by Keith Sword ISBN-333-66860 pp.60-87
          > "The origins of the operation,which the British codenamed "Scalene" ...the first evacuation of General Anders' forces from the Soviet Union via Iran to the Middle East are both confused and controversial...
          > The decision to carry out an evacuation was finally reached in a key meeting between Sikorski and Stalin in Moscow on 3 December, 1941...
          > Stalin concede to a request from General Sikorski that Polish recruitment and training should be conducted in a region with a less severe climate... At the beginning of 1942, the Polish forces transferred from the Volga region to camps in Central Asia. The move took place over a five week period during January and February...Polish headquarters was reestablished at Yangi-Yul...However, Polish Army camps were now dispersed over a huge area...Hundreds of miles now separated the various divisional headquarters...Mid February, in an effort to force the pace of events, an Anglo-Polish advance party departed for Pahlevi...March...Stalin personally marked out a land and sea route which led across the Caspian Sea via Krasnovodsk...Executive order from Ander's headquarters for evacuation issued 23 March...The first ship Karamin left Krasnovodsk on 24 March...arrived in Pahlevi 25 March...1387 almost all sailors and airmen due for transfer to Great Britain (Operation Scrivner)...last transport carrying 1982 evacuees arrived in Pahlevi 5 April...accompanying this last contingent was General Boruta Spiechowicz...last convoys taking troops from Pahlevi left after a severe thunderstorm on 25 April...Military evacuees directed south and west by two routes...One route, taken by road, led via Quazvin and Hamadan to Khanaquin in Iraq and then onwards to Palestine where the troops linked up with Polish Middle Eastern Command. Another group was moved by Teheran by rail to the Persian Gulf. There some 1439 were transported by ship to Britain, while the remainder...almost 1000 were ferried to Palestine by way of the Suez Canal...Second Evacuation...the numbers of troops remaining in the Soviet Union at the beginning of April 1942 were 40,508...Stalin agreed to further recruitment...meeting in Tashkent on 29 March...It was agreed that three infantry divisions and various ancillary formations would be created."
          > Hope this helps - Ewa D. - Nevada
          >





        • John Halucha
          Thanks, Stan. Many other sources also say that the first ships left Krasnovodsk on March 24, so I decided that either the author made an error by one day or
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 3, 2013
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            Thanks, Stan.
            Many other sources also say that the first ships left Krasnovodsk on March 24, so I decided that either the author made an error by one day or that he actually meant the day that the first ships landed in Pahlevi - March 25.
            At the very least, the passage is unclear. Unfortunate, because such little details become very important when trying to put together a puzzle with many missing pieces.
            You have a good eye, to catch this question, and a good heart, to share your contributions. I am looking forward to exploring the document you just posted and others from http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/terra_poland/01.html , especially anything on the 8th Infantry Division, which my father joined on March 30, 1942 just before evacuation to Persia.
            Thanks!

            John Halucha
            Sault Ste Marie, Canada


            From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
            To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 11:34:02 AM
            Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

             
            John!
            According soviet sources, the first transport to Pahlevi started from Krasnovodsk 24.03.42.
             Stan from M. 


            From: John Halucha <john.halucha@...>
            To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 6:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

             
            Outstanding finds, Ewa and Frances.
            These are the first verifications I have seen of Operation Scrivener as mentioned by Wladyslaw Wojcik in his book Polish Spirit, p.148: "Over a period of eleven days beginning 25th March, a total of 43,858 Poles were evacuated, the first substantial body of my countrymen to emerge from within the Soviet Union since the events of September 1939. Of these, I was privileged to be on the very first ship out which carried virtually all of the 1387 airmen and sailors ear-marked for onward transfer to Great Britain under Operation Scrivener."
            Keith Sword explains that Operation Scrivener was for sailors and airmen only and that the larger operation including soldiers like my father was Operation Scalene. I suppose that the mass evacuation of Polish civilians would also be under Scalene, though that appears not to have been intended by the British military planners (or Stalin).
            This really clarifies a lot, explaining that Scrivener was probably not directly relevant to my father's evacuation. Even more significantly, it points the compass needle towards Scalene on this path to fuller understanding.
            Thank you very much.

            John Halucha
            Sault Ste Marie, Canada


            From: Frances <frncsgts@...>
            To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 8:52:46 PM
            Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

             

            Thanks for posting this information Ewa - my father would have been on this ship.

            Further to previous discussion about Operation Scrivener (Scrivner) I have just found the information shown below. I can never manage to post a link so I'll just cut and paste the information.

            http://www.richardfordmanuscripts.co.uk/catalogue/3355

            Richard Ford
            Books, Printed Ephemera and Manuscripts
            3 typed documents relating to the evacuation of 10,000 Polish soldiers from Baghdad to Haifa.
            Author:
            British Tenth Army in Iraq [World War II]
            Publication details:
            January and February 1942.
            ����125.00
            SKU: 3355

            ITEM 1. 1 page, approx. 6 1/2 inches by 8 inches. In good condition although creased and fraying, on thin, browning paper. Headed 'COPY of IMPORTANT / MOST SECRET Cipher No. Q/466 of 7/2 | from MILPAL to TENTH ARMY rptd MIDEAST.' In reply to a query from Lt Col. Ross, confirms a 'rate of evacuation 500 every 5 days. Propose using two convoys approx. 20 civilian busses each. Three days Haifa-Baghdad rest one day. Four days Baghdad-Haifa rest two days. Stage LG5 rations POL water both ways.' Two typewritten notes. Docketed in manuscript. ITEM 2. 1 page, approx. 8 1/2 inches by 13 1/2 inches. Grubby and creased, with some spotting and closed tears. Carbon with illegible copy of signature of Deputy Quatermaster General. Headed 'SECRET', and dated 12/2/42. Begins 'SCALENE AND SCRIVENER (.) AS A RESULT DISCUSSION WITH CAPT SCHLEE FOLLOWING IS PROPOSED (.)' Four proposals relating to evacuation follow. ('FOURTH (.) SCRIVENER POLES WILL BE ENTRAINED TEHRAN AND NOT REPEAT NOT KAZVIN TO AVOID POSSIBILITY DIFFICULTIES WITH RUSSIANS CONTROLLING KAZVIN TEHRAN RAILWAY'.) ITEM 3. 1 page, approx. 8 inches by 12 1/2 inches. In good condition, although creased and fraying, on thin, browning paper. Headed 'Copy of most secret cipher Tel. No Q/524 dated 17/2/42, from | PILMAL to TENTH ARMY rptd MIDEAST. | SCALENIE (MOST SECRET).' Puts six points regarding the evacuation, regarding rations, interpreters, busses, etc.

            RICHARD M. FORD
            Tel: +44 20 8993 1235

            However it still doesn't tell us who Scrivener was. More hunting needed.

            Frances
            Sydney

            --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "ebard55" wrote:
            >
            > This information is from "Deportation and Exile Poles in the Soviet Union 1939-48" by Keith Sword ISBN-333-66860 pp.60-87
            > "The origins of the operation,which the British codenamed "Scalene" ...the first evacuation of General Anders' forces from the Soviet Union via Iran to the Middle East are both confused and controversial...
            > The decision to carry out an evacuation was finally reached in a key meeting between Sikorski and Stalin in Moscow on 3 December, 1941...
            > Stalin concede to a request from General Sikorski that Polish recruitment and training should be conducted in a region with a less severe climate... At the beginning of 1942, the Polish forces transferred from the Volga region to camps in Central Asia. The move took place over a five week period during January and February...Polish headquarters was reestablished at Yangi-Yul...However, Polish Army camps were now dispersed over a huge area...Hundreds of miles now separated the various divisional headquarters...Mid February, in an effort to force the pace of events, an Anglo-Polish advance party departed for Pahlevi...March...Stalin personally marked out a land and sea route which led across the Caspian Sea via Krasnovodsk...Executive order from Ander's headquarters for evacuation issued 23 March...The first ship Karamin left Krasnovodsk on 24 March...arrived in Pahlevi 25 March...1387 almost all sailors and airmen due for transfer to Great Britain (Operation Scrivner)...last transport carrying 1982 evacuees arrived in Pahlevi 5 April...accompanying this last contingent was General Boruta Spiechowicz...last convoys taking troops from Pahlevi left after a severe thunderstorm on 25 April...Military evacuees directed south and west by two routes...One route, taken by road, led via Quazvin and Hamadan to Khanaquin in Iraq and then onwards to Palestine where the troops linked up with Polish Middle Eastern Command. Another group was moved by Teheran by rail to the Persian Gulf. There some 1439 were transported by ship to Britain, while the remainder...almost 1000 were ferried to Palestine by way of the Suez Canal...Second Evacuation...the numbers of troops remaining in the Soviet Union at the beginning of April 1942 were 40,508...Stalin agreed to further recruitment...meeting in Tashkent on 29 March...It was agreed that three infantry divisions and various ancillary formations would be created."
            > Hope this helps - Ewa D. - Nevada
            >







          • Stanislaw Zwierzynski
            www.yadvashem.org/yv/ru/pdf/yad_vashem_studies/gutman.pdf Paper I. Gutman describes Jews in Anders army. Interesting. Stan from M.
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 3, 2013
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            www.yadvashem.org/yv/ru/pdf/yad_vashem_studies/gutman.pdf

            Paper I. Gutman describes Jews in Anders army. Interesting.

            Stan from M.


            From: John Halucha <john.halucha@...>
            To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 7:54 PM
            Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi

             
            Thanks, Stan.

            John Halucha
            Sault Ste Marie, Canada









          • szypowska
            Here is link to the English version of the document that Stan posted .... http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%206564.pdf Kind regards,
            Message 6 of 13 , Mar 3, 2013
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              Here is link to the English version of the document that Stan posted ....
               
               

              Kind regards,

              Krystyna Szypowska - Winnipeg, Canada

              Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi [1 Attachment]
               
               

              www.yadvashem.org/yv/ru/pdf/yad_vashem_studies/gutman.pdf

              Paper I. Gutman describes Jews in Anders army. Interesting.

              Stan from M.
               

            • ANN SIBURUTH
              Thanks for the information regarding this journey.   I m pretty certain my Dad would have been on this transport, as he was under British Command being in
              Message 7 of 13 , Mar 3, 2013
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                Thanks for the information regarding this journey.   I'm pretty certain my Dad would have been on this transport, as he was under British Command being in the Air Force.   I know the date he arrived in Glasgow, but as yet haven't been able to find his name on any ship list.   It is really interesting reading material.  So thank you once again and it is something to research further for me.

                Ann
                 
              • Basia
                Dear Group I have all my antenna on alert re journey and timing to Pahlevi Unfortunately I am not at home and cannot check my MOD documents. It could be that
                Message 8 of 13 , Mar 5, 2013
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                  Dear Group

                  I have all my antenna on alert re journey and timing to Pahlevi
                  Unfortunately I am not at home and cannot check my MOD documents.
                  It could be that until I hear from CAW I won't get the answer.
                  However
                  According to post on this line of enquiry, Sikorski and Stalin had talks in Moscow 3rd December 1941
                  On the KARTA  referening my Father, Anders, Tatiszczewo 3/9/1941
                  Arrived in UK 7th June 1942

                  Which  transport would that fit my father into?

                  Would CAW indeed have the answer to that section, those months, of my father's life?
                  I have looked at all the lists posted since April last year to see if I can find his name on a boat and have failed.

                  Basia Zielinska (Sydney)






                • Anne Kaczanowski
                  He would have been out on the first transport...March 24 to April 10th, 1942. hania ________________________________ From: Basia To:
                  Message 9 of 13 , Mar 5, 2013
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                    He would have been out on the first transport...March 24 to April 10th, 1942.
                    hania

                    From: Basia <basia@...>
                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 6:44:07 PM
                    Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Caspian Sea Journey to Pahlevi
                     
                    Dear Group

                    I have all my antenna on alert re journey and timing to Pahlevi
                    Unfortunately I am not at home and cannot check my MOD documents.
                    It could be that until I hear from CAW I won't get the answer.
                    However
                    According to post on this line of enquiry, Sikorski and Stalin had talks in Moscow 3rd December 1941
                    On the KARTA  referening my Father, Anders, Tatiszczewo 3/9/1941
                    Arrived in UK 7th June 1942

                    Which  transport would that fit my father into?

                    Would CAW indeed have the answer to that section, those months, of my father's life?
                    I have looked at all the lists posted since April last year to see if I can find his name on a boat and have failed.

                    Basia Zielinska (Sydney)






                  • annapacewicz
                    Dear Ewa, Thank you so much for this post and for helping to solve the Operation Scrivner mystery. My Dad, Wladek Pacewicz, was on this ship. His MoD records
                    Message 10 of 13 , Mar 6, 2013
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                      Dear Ewa,

                      Thank you so much for this post and for helping to solve the "Operation Scrivner" mystery.

                      My Dad, Wladek Pacewicz, was on this ship. His MoD records give his transport to Persia as the 24th March 1942. On the 1st June he was transported to Palestine and assigned to the Navy camp. On the 3rd July he sailed for the UK, arriving on the 23rd August 1942 and from there he was drafted into the Polish Navy in Plymouth.

                      After reading the book "Polish Spirit" by Wladyslaw Wojcik (which John Halucha refers to) I have been trying to verify that sailors and airmen were on the first shipment out to Persia.

                      Many thanks again!

                      Kind regards

                      Anna Pacewicz

                      Sydney

                       

                       


                      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "ebard55" <ebard55@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > This information is from "Deportation and Exile Poles in the Soviet Union 1939-48" by Keith Sword ISBN-333-66860 pp.60-87
                      > "The origins of the operation,which the British codenamed "Scalene" ...the first evacuation of General Anders' forces from the Soviet Union via Iran to the Middle East are both confused and controversial...
                      > The decision to carry out an evacuation was finally reached in a key meeting between Sikorski and Stalin in Moscow on 3 December, 1941...
                      > Stalin concede to a request from General Sikorski that Polish recruitment and training should be conducted in a region with a less severe climate... At the beginning of 1942, the Polish forces transferred from the Volga region to camps in Central Asia. The move took place over a five week period during January and February...Polish headquarters was reestablished at Yangi-Yul...However, Polish Army camps were now dispersed over a huge area...Hundreds of miles now separated the various divisional headquarters...Mid February, in an effort to force the pace of events, an Anglo-Polish advance party departed for Pahlevi...March...Stalin personally marked out a land and sea route which led across the Caspian Sea via Krasnovodsk...Executive order from Ander's headquarters for evacuation issued 23 March...The first ship Karamin left Krasnovodsk on 24 March...arrived in Pahlevi 25 March...1387 almost all sailors and airmen due for transfer to Great Britain (Operation Scrivner)...last transport carrying 1982 evacuees arrived in Pahlevi 5 April...accompanying this last contingent was General Boruta Spiechowicz...last convoys taking troops from Pahlevi left after a severe thunderstorm on 25 April...Military evacuees directed south and west by two routes...One route, taken by road, led via Quazvin and Hamadan to Khanaquin in Iraq and then onwards to Palestine where the troops linked up with Polish Middle Eastern Command. Another group was moved by Teheran by rail to the Persian Gulf. There some 1439 were transported by ship to Britain, while the remainder...almost 1000 were ferried to Palestine by way of the Suez Canal...Second Evacuation...the numbers of troops remaining in the Soviet Union at the beginning of April 1942 were 40,508...Stalin agreed to further recruitment...meeting in Tashkent on 29 March...It was agreed that three infantry divisions and various ancillary formations would be created."
                      > Hope this helps - Ewa D. - Nevada
                      >

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