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Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: NEIGHBOURS ON THE EVE OF THE HOLOCAUST (1939-1941)

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  • Stanislaw Zwierzynski
    Those Belarusians who became Catholic, began to call themselves Poles (this was in 21-39 and before KRESY), but the features of writing names confirms
    Message 1 of 76 , Jan 27, 2013
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    Those Belarusians who became Catholic, began to call themselves Poles (this was in 21-39 and before KRESY), but the features of writing names confirms belonging to Belarusian ethnos.

    Those Belarusians who have remained in Orthodox Church, for years 1921-39 really depressing. And do not even discuss it. My extended family, now living there yet, it is confirmed. No need to refer to some "historians" who write works without reference to reality.

    Incidentally, this explains bitterness with which the Belarusians after arrival of the Red Army to destroy Poles in Kresy - certainly not as active as it did UPA in Ukraine.

    Older brother of my grandmother, Jan, Belarusian punitivewas killed in Koldychewo near Baranowicz - they killed about 22 thousand people, mostly Poles and Jews, living in Kresy.

    The camp was conceived specifically to destroy them. Killed - Belarusians, brutally, horribly. Read, what I quickly found.

    The file has an interview with a wonderful man - A. Titorenko, who wrote a truthful book that was going on in Belarus in 1939-35 years. Of course, this view of a Belarusian. You may not like it. But history should be studied from different perspectives, and not repeat the same thing.

    So - on KRESY was not monolithic people, as some want to argue here. Were Polish: Poles, Jews, Belarusians and Ukrainians. Estates division was great.

    By the way, how write Polish scientists, and in the Polish society was a great division in the 1921-39 years. For example, people in central Poland with disdain (if not - share contempt) are among those, who have lived on Kresy.

    Stan from M.

    From: Lenarda Szymczak <szymczak01@...>
    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 4:15 AM
    Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: NEIGHBOURS ON THE EVE OF THE HOLOCAUST (1939-1941)

    Dan, the Bialorussians, (the word bialy, bialo, meaning white) were they under Polish control?  Or were they a separate entity and if so then in Bialorus there would have been ethnic mixture, the same as Kresy and all should be addressed  as Bielarus. So why did one turn on the other and why did one support Soviets, Germans and other did not. Isn’t this the same as Kresy people? Perhaps it is more appropriate to say people were opportunistic and as at the horse races, backed their ponies but not all were winners, because the races were rigged, in fact all were losers, victims with the Polish people,  including the Russian and German and Bialorusian  and even Lithuanian, as a friend in Australia pointed out, the Lithuanian people welcomed the Germans though the front door as the Soviets ran out the back door.  It is a very complex subject and we tread a fine line which should be finely trod.  Stefan I really like your saying. 
    Lenarda, Australia
    From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Ford
    Sent: Sunday, 27 January, 2013 11:12 AM
    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: NEIGHBOURS ON THE EVE OF THE HOLOCAUST (1939-1941)
    Well, that in my opinion is to distort the history of inter-war Poland,
    because ethnicity trumped citizenship in many people's minds. It was
    their ethnicity that caused the Volks-deutsch to collaborate with the
    German occupiers, and the Ukrainians and Belorussians to collaborate
    with the Soviet occupiers, and just about everybody to beat up on the
    Jews. Yet all were Polish citizens.

    Recall Gomulka's welcoming of the new and ethnically cleansed Polish
    territory of 1945, because at last "the nation" (of ethnic Poles)
    coincided with "the country" (the territorial Poland).

    The story of inter-war Europe and to a lesser extent Cold War Europe and
    even beyond was in large part the story of ethnic conflicts. Discard
    them and you have no real basis upon which to understand what happened
    between 1918 and our time. Think of the mess in the former Yugoslavia!
    Think of Czecho /. Slovakia! Think of Ireland--and Scotland! -- Dan Ford US

    On 1/26/2013 5:05 PM, John Halucha wrote:
    > discard the "ethnicity" definition and use "Polish" to describe
    > citizenship exclusively.

  • Danuta Janina Wójcik
    Akcja Wisla uprooted ALL Greek Catholics, not just Lemkos. ... From: Zenon Kuzik To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:54 AM
    Message 76 of 76 , Jan 29, 2013
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      Akcja Wisla uprooted ALL Greek Catholics, not just Lemkos.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:54 AM
      Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

      Dear Basia,

      Point taken about language being organic, but the man in Wroclaw was quite adamant that Polish as spoken in present-day Poland has been bastardised: his subjective opinion.

      I think that if the Lithuanian lady had a painful experience, she probably allowed that to cloud her judgment regarding the past: subjective emotion distorting objective facts/reality.  I am not necessarily condemning her because of this, as we can all be guilty of doing the same - the present writer included!

      You mentioned the Bieszczady region and the ethnic cleansing that took place there. This was part of what is known as Akcja Wisla which uprooted Lemkos and other Ruthenians/Ukrainians from their ancestral lands.  Remember, of course, that this took place during the Communist era, at the behest of Moscow.
      Interestingly, I knew some Lemko folk who were victims of this tragedy.  Yet they did not become anti-Polish as a result.  They were aware of the circumstances behind their painful experience and were very friendly towards the Poles they came across in their new land of Australia, and were happy to speak in (non-bastardised!) Polish.  I think they could have taught that Lithuanian lady a thing or two!  By the way, as those native to Bieszczady were mostly Greek Catholics, and not Orthodox, it would seem more likely that the service you witnessed was led by GC and RC clergy.

      Your contributions are much appreciated.

      Zenon Kuzik
      New Zealand

      From: Basia <basia@...>
      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 29 January 2013 9:10 PM
      Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

      Dear Zenon
      Language is very "organic" it changes! There are many factors which affect that.
      In my humble opinion, it is not that language is/was better, just different, evolved,and many factors affect that.
      Just consider the variants in English around the world.
      That is a fact, and we tend to cling to what is familiar to us.
      That too is understandable.
      The difference in language is significantly noticeable when I speak to younger generation Poles (I am mother in law to a gorgeous "real" Pole, 10 years out of Poland).
      I speak very reasonable Polish (apparently) and I do hear the "difference" in the younger generation.
      As for the lady from Lithuania
      Her experience is obviously painful, her memories are based on her personal experiences and stories.
      This why I embrace, to the best of my ability (not always successfully) an openness to learn about/from other cultures before forming cautious opinions.
      I was in the Bieszczady region of Poland a few years ago, I don't exactly know the facts between the changing borders, but I was, for the first time, seeing evidence of ethnic cleansing, by Poles, which caused me terrible pain.
      There was an extraordinary process of reconciliation happening when I was (purely by fluke) there. A marvellous service, in a church rebuilt from rubble, officiated at by Roman Catholic and Orthodox priests (bishops or even higher I think) One of the most moving days in my life.
      It filled me with hope for the human race.
      Basia Zielinska (Sydney)
      From: Zenon Kuzik <zenon.kuzik@...>
      Reply-To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:16:19 -0800 (PST)
      To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

      Dear Basia,

      What a great reply - thank you!  Stanislaw from Moscow's contribution certainly gave food for thought as well.

      Another aspect that "distances" me from modern Poland is that I have come across recent immigrants from that country who are not at all interested in connecting with the older Poles of my parents' generation. They seem to regard them as foreigners!  Anyhow, I was heartened when a man in Wroclaw, whose family was originally from Volhynia, said that my father spoke much better Polish than most people in present-day Poland.  We multi-ethnics from the former Eastern Poland are the true heirs of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.  What a shame that the Lithuanian lady referred to by Dan Ford in his recent post has such a narrow (blinkered?) view of the past.


      Zenon Kuzik
      Across the Ditch from Sydney

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