Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Po lish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents à ƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ 125 - ¹ 157.

Expand Messages
  • Mark and Oyun
    The 394[!!!] In the Yukhnovsky camp were: General: 1 [Gen. Wolkowicki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Wo%C5%82kowicki
    Message 1 of 53 , Jan 3, 2013
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment

      The 394[!!!] In the Yukhnovsky camp were:

       

      General: 1 [Gen. Wolkowicki  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Wo%C5%82kowicki]

      Colonels: 8

      Lt Colonels: 16

      Majors: 8

      Captains: 18

      Other Officers: 201

      Warrant Officers 8

      Police Officer (Junior Officers): 9

      Police Officers (O/R): 38

      Military Police (Junior Officer): 1

      Military Police (O/R): 1

      Prison Guards: 9

       Settlers: 2

      Civil Servants: 8

      Army/Border Guards (O/R): 15

      Junaki: 12

      Forest Workers:1

      Refugees: 38

       

      [There is a more complete breakdown at Memo No.103]

       

      Upon arrival at the camp on May 14 and 13 the prisoners had announced a "moment of silence" that unnerved camp authorities. The camp commander of the POWs, Major J. Mara-Mey explained that this was "in tribute to the memory of fallen comrades". As it turned out later, these were the days of the anniversary of the death of J. Pilsudski.

      On the 14th June 384 were sent to Gryazovets leaving 10 sick in the camp, who joined them later.

      The Camp Commandant's Memo 10th June 1940 [No.96] to Merkalov clearly states as of 1st June there were 394 POWs in the camp.  This still leaves one unaccounted for!

      http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html

      Regards, Mark

       

      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" wrote:
      >
      >
      > Dea Stefan,
      >
      > Ok, did some digging and learnt something new. Juchnow (name of camp)
      > and Pavelishtchev Bor (location) are the same place. A former TB
      > sanitorium. The survivors were sent here initially before being moved to
      > Gryazovtets. Since they were coming from three seperate places it would
      > be sensible to group them before sending them onwards.
      >
      > ...juchnowski (Juchnow kolo Kalugi, Rosja) nad rzeka Ugra na drodze
      > Malojaroslawiec – Miatliewo – Roslaw, faktycznie w bylym
      > sanatorium gruzliczym Pawliszczew (Pawliszew) Bor .
      >
      > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obozy_NKWD_dla_je%C5%84c%C3%B3w_polskich
      >
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukhnov
      >
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazovets
      >
      >
      > As to the numbers... we'll keep digging. According to Wikipedia... (yes
      > I know it'snot a historical source, but one hopes the information came
      > from somewhere) the 395 were already in Gryazovets in May.
      >
      > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob%C3%B3z_jeniecki_NKWD_w_Griazowcu
      >
      >
      > Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
      >
      > PS/ There is only one internet link to Pavelishtchev Bor on the
      > internet. I think it has something to do with te
      > transliteration/spellingand its and it comes from the full text of "The
      > Katyn Forest Massacre : hearings before the Select Committee to Conduct
      > an Investigation of the Facts, Evidence and Circumstances of the Katyn
      > Forest Massacre, Eighty-second Congress, first[-second] session, on
      > investigation of the murder of thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn
      > Forest near Smolensk, Russia ..
      > "
      >
      > Link here:
      > http://www.archive.org/stream/katynforestmassa06unit/katynforestmassa06u\
      > nit_djvu.txt
      >
      unit_djvu.txt>
      >
      > ---------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Mark and Chris,
      > >
      > > Thanks, Mark, as always, for your fascinating contributions, grim as
      > they are in this case.
      > >
      > > I had a closer look at Zadownys' book, "Death in the Forrest", and can
      > see that his discrepency in the numbers of Katyn
      > > survivors in 1940 vs. 1941 is clearly acknowledged.
      > >
      > > He quotes the "448 survivors" figure on pages 78, 104, 116, 117, 120
      > (twice), 124, 143 and 146, so it clearly wasn't a typo,
      > > and obviously isn't an estimate. Zadowny states that this is the
      > number of survivors of the three main camps after the executions. This
      > is, he says, the number of men who arrived in Pavelishtchev Bor
      > during/immediately after the others were shot
      > > in the spring of 1940. His source is a document prepared for the
      > Polish Government in Exile by a Dr. Wiktor Sukiennicki entitled
      > > "Facts and Documents concerning Polish Prisioners of War captured by
      > the USSR during the 1939 Campaign" It was published
      > > in London in 1946, and at the time classified as Top Secret. It is
      > prob. available at the Sikorski Institute.(?)
      > >
      > > He quotes "about 400" - i.e. 395 - as the number who arrived in
      > Grazovec approx. 13 months later. The source he quotes for this number
      > is documents in Exhibits 32 and 33 submitted in 1952 by the Polish
      > Government in Exile to a "Congressional Select Comittee
      > > to Conduct an Investigation of the Facts, Evidence and Circumstances
      > of the Katyn Forrest Massacre". i.e.the Madden Committee .. Part 4,
      > pages 526-548 apparently contains a "complete list of officers, cadets,
      > non-commissioned officers, privates and civilians who arrived at
      > Grazovec". Chris, I think this is what you may be looking for. Perhaps
      > someone in the group might be able to find the time to dig this document
      > up ... ? This looks like a good place to start;
      > >
      > > Â http://ca-mg4.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=4en8ke4nqgtk8
      > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > >
      > > Regrading their 13 month imprisonment before the transfer to Grazovec,
      > Zadowny states on page 118 of "Death in the Forrest" that "During this
      > time, some individual Poles were placed under guard and removed from the
      > camp. It has been established that those removed were taken to various
      > prisons to be interrogated furtherby NKVD specialists for specific
      > information regarding their civilian occupations. On June 13, 1941, the
      > remaining prisoners wereremoved to Camp Grazovec. After some arrests
      > there were now about four hundred". Uncharacteristically, he doesn't
      > give a source, or specify how "it has been established", but it seems to
      > make sense.
      > >
      > >
      > > He reiterates his contentions plainly on page 124: "from the total
      > number, only 448 survived in Camp Pavelishtchev Bor. From theseabout 400
      > arrived in Grazovec."
      > >
      > >
      > > Incidently, heinterviewed both Stanislaw Swianewicz and Josef Czapski
      > extensively for his book and singled them both out in the
      > >
      > > books' "Acknowledgements". Swianewicz in particular reviewed Zadownys'
      > initial manuscipt, and would surely have felt obligated to
      > >
      > > correct any obvious factual errors he found.
      > >
      > > Of course, Mark, if Zadowny is correct, now there are a few more
      > contradictions with the Soprunenko memo below;
      > >
      > > Did the NKVD change the number of initial survivors from 448 to 395
      > retroactivly, to hide the fact that that a further 53 men
      > > disappeared and were likely murdered after the initial massacres? Or
      > was Zadowny basing his assumption of 448 initial survivors
      > > on a faulty document?
      > >
      > >
      > > Why does Zadowny list the camp where the survivors were first taken in
      > May/June of 1940 as Pavelishtchev Bor, while in Soprunenkos'memo it's
      > Yukhnovsky?Â
      > >
      > > As usual, more questions than answers ...  Any more
      > thoughts??
      > >
      > >
      > > Best regards,
      > >
      > > Stefan Jackowski
      > > Toronto
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Mark and Oyun
      > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:29:09 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October
      > 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
      > >
      > >
      > > Â
      > > Dear Stefan,
      > > Â
      > > 448 survivors? Interesting. The usual figure is 395 (also on
      > Wikipedia "395 prisoners were spared from the slaughter,[1] among
      > them StanisÅ‚aw Swianiewicz and Józef Czapski.[23] They
      > were taken to the Yukhnov camp and then to Gryazovets.[19]")Â Â
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre)
      > > Â
      > > The number comes up again in another memo from Soprunenko:
      > > Â
      > > No 92 May 25th 1940
      > > Â
      > > Total sent to Yukhnovsky camp - 395Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > > Â
      > > Among them:
      > > a) to the 5th Dept. [Counter intelligence] Main Directorate for State
      > Security - 47Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > Â
      > > b) on request of the German Embassy - 47Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > Â Â Â
      > > c) on request of the Mission of Lithuanian - 19Â Â
      > > e) Germans - 24
      > > =============Â 137Â Â Â
      > > e) at the disposal of Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of
      > the USSR. Comrade Merkulov - 91Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > Â Â Â Â Â Â
      > > f) other - 167Â Â Â Â Â
      > > ============= 258
      > > Â
      > > Total 395
      > > Â
      > > Head Of The NKVD Of The USSR
      > > in cases of prisoners of war
      > > Security Captain
      > > P. Soprunenko
      > > Â
      > > Â http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html#13ch
      > > Â
      > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
      > > Â
      > > Â
      > >
      > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Dear Mark and group,
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To add some info re: the situation of the Katyn survivors;
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > According to Prof. Zawodny, of the 15,000 + Polish Officers held in
      > the spring of 1940 in Koselsk, Starobelsk and Ostashkov, only 448
      > survived execution by the Soviets.
      > > >
      > > > These survivors were shipped in 7 seperate transports to an empty
      > camp at Pavelishtchev Bor, just north of Kosielsk.
      > > >
      > > > April 25, 1940 - 63 men from Starobelsk, arriving at Pavelishtchev
      > Bor on May 1, 1940
      > > > April 26, 1940 - 150 men from Koselsk, arriving on April 26, 1940
      > > > April 29, 1940 - 60 men from Ostashkov, arriving on May 4
      > > > May 12, 1940 - 95 from Kozelsk, arriving on May 14
      > > >
      > > > May 12, 1940 - 16 from Starobelsk, arriving on May 17
      > > > May 13, 1940 - 45 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 18
      > > >
      > > > May 16. 1940 - 16 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 20
      > > >
      > > > After ongoing interogations and NKVD attempts to convert them them
      > to Communism, the remaining men spontaneously started to split into
      > three main groups; those with some
      > > > pro-Soviet sentiment (about 50 men), about 30 who claimed German -
      > not Polish - ancestry,and the rest who remainded anti-Soviet. 12 of the
      > 30 "Germans" were considered
      > > >
      > > > German enough, and given over to the custody of the Soviet allies at
      > the German Embassy. (Of the remaining 18 "Germans",
      > > > one committed suicide upon the outbreak of war
      > > >
      > > > with the Nazis .. while the fate
      > > > of his teutonic companions after June 22, 1941 can be easily
      > imagined.)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Sept. 10, 1940, 7 of the highest ranking pro-Soviet group from
      > the camp were taken to Moscow, where they were wined and dined as
      > potential leadershop material in a new
      > > >
      > > > Soviet Poland. (All 7 later joined Anders Army when that
      > opportunity arose. Zygmunt Berling later defected back to the Soviets,
      > and, as we know, was tried by the Polish Army
      > > >
      > > > in absentia, and given a death sentance.)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On June 13, 1941, just nine days before Barbarossa, the rest of the
      > men were transported to a camp which Zadowny referrs to as "Grazovec",
      > which very likely is the "Grazoveckom"ÂÂ
      > > > listed in Memorandam No. 155, posted here on Sunday. On
      > Sept. 1, 1941, the NKVD gaurds and administration were withdrawn, and
      > the camp was set up as a Polish Army unit.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hope this is of interest.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Best regards,
      > > >
      > > > Stefan Jackowski
      > > > Toronto
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ________________________________
      > > > From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@
      > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:23:17 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war.
      > October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 -
      > ¹ 157.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ÂÂ
      > > > Dear Mark,
      > > > Actually there is little evidence to doubt this document. We know
      > that some officers did survive. We should remember that General Anders
      > was also not executed. Nor were the other senior officers who made up
      > the 2nd Polish Corps. A few other Generals survived: Boruta Spiechowicz,
      > Przezdziecki and Januszajtis are three that sring to mind.
      > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczys%C5%82aw_Boruta-Spiechowicz
      > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Prze%C5%BAdziecki
      > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Januszajtis-%C5%BBegota
      > > > The key being that they were in in other prisons at the time of the
      > mass killings. Most were in Moscow in the Lubianka being tortured.
      > Colonel Rakowski (later General Officer Commanding 2nd Armoured
      > Division) and my grandfather's GOC 5 Division Sulik (then a colonel)
      > were also in the Lubianka.
      > > > Others officers managed to convince their interrogators that they
      > were either cooperative or not a threat. And others were just
      > lucky… they were being held in other places and did not come
      > into the Kozielsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov clearnaces.
      > > > As to the prisoners working… My estimates put the total
      > number of POWs held by the Soviets as around 54,000. The POWs who ended
      > up with Anders were about half of this number and they were retained by
      > their captors to work.  The approximately 16,000 victims of Katyn
      > are also included from this group. Several thousand have also just
      > disappeared from the figures; mostly casualties of death marches, air
      > raids and NKVD brutality and harsh conditions. [My post 52978 for
      > the numbers.(Although we did have a bit of a polemic re POW
      > status which I really don't want to open up again)]
      > > > ---------------------------
      > > > â„â€" 130
      > > > 1940 November 2, Moscow. - Memorandum from LP Beria IV Stalin's
      > plans to set up in the Soviet Union military units of the Polish
      > prisoners of war
      > > > […]
      > > > b) General-Borut Spehovich [5] stated that he can take certain steps
      > only at the direction of the "government" Sikorsky, which, in his
      > opinion, represents the interests of the Polish people;
      > > > c) General Przhezdetsky [6] made
      > ​​a statement similar to
      > the statement Borut-Spehovicha;
      > > > […]
      > > > d) several colonels and lieutenant colonels (Burling [7], Bukoemsky
      > [8], Gorchinskiy [9], Tyshinsky [10]) stated that they fully convey
      > himself at the disposal of the Soviet power, and that very willingly
      > take over a) the organization and guide any military connections as
      > well) from the Polish prisoners of war, designed a) to deal with Germany
      > a) in the interest of Poland as a nation-state. The future of Poland is
      > thought to be closely related in one way or another with the Soviet
      > Union.
      > > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
      > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Mark wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I see this report of June 1941 seems to list the POW status at the
      > time.
      > > > > It suggests 1259 officers are alive at that date and that Polish
      > Army prisoners were left in the camps.
      > > > > Who were these officers who escaped Katyn?
      > > > > I did see what Dan said about confusing POWs from 'criminals', but
      > I thought all Polish officers were deemed 'criminals', enemies of the
      > people or whatever.
      > > > > There is also reference to "former" POWs.
      > > > > Even though I am nowhere in my research of the deports and the
      > POWs, this is the first I heard of POWs working on an airfield in Ukr.
      > > > > Is this a real document made at the time to cover up Katyn or a
      > newly composed document?
      > > > > What I wouldnt give to see my grandfather's file with NKWD!
      > > > > ÂÂÂ
      > > > >
      > > > > Mark T.
      > > > > Canada
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: Basia basia@
      > > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:27:52 PM
      > > > > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October
      > 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ÂÂÂ
      > > > >
      > > > > This is fascinating Mark, somewhere in those numbers was my
      > father.
      > > > > Thank you
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Basia Zielinska (Sydney)
      > > > >
      > > > > From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@: Kresy-Siberia@: Sun, 30 Dec 2012
      > 20:05:57 -0000To: Kresy-Siberia@: {Disarmed} Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org]
      > Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents
      > ÃÆ'‚¹ 125 - ÃÆ'‚¹ 157.
      > > > >
      > > > > ÂÂÂ
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Dear Dan,
      > > > > To answer your question, about 26,000. probably the men listed
      > below. Taken from the same source you are reading.
      > > > > No. 155
      > > > > June 22, 1941 Goda. Moscow. Memorandum V.v. Chernysheva and P.k.
      > Soprunenko the existence of prisoners of war and interned in the NKVD
      > camps
      > > > > The people's Commissar of Internal Affairs
      > > > > Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics
      > > > > Comrade Beria, L.p. [1]
      > > > > Report: ex-prisoners of war. Polish Army
      > > > > 27760:
      > > > > 14135 per. ÃÆ'‚â€" in the construction of
      > airfields and roads in Western Ukraine.
      > > > > 7754. on the construction of the Northern Pechora Railway,
      > > > > 4000 people.on the construction of the airfield Ponoy River
      > (imported 1000 persons) of the Murmansk region.
      > > > > Officers are: 1259
      > > > > in kozelsk camp ÃÆ'‚â€" 909 people.
      > > > > the GrÃÆ'Æ'¢zoveckom camp is 350 people.
      > > > > The remaining numbering 270 people. in the
      > ÃÆ'Æ'›hnovskom camp (Smolensk Oblast).
      > > > > To former prisoners of war, the inhabitants of our land, take out
      > from Western Ukraine to build airfields in Eastern Ukraine.b)
      > > > > Former prisoners of war, German citizens of Poland, moved to the
      > camp regime and to work in remote regions: Karagandy oblast,
      > North-Pechora trunk line, splitting the small lots, no more than 250-300
      > people.
      > > > > Ex-officers. the Polish Army and French (195) left in the camps,
      > all in Gryazovetsky camp of the Vologda region.
      > > > > Chernyshov P.
      > > > > Soprunenko
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • Stefan Jackowski
        Dear Mark,   Bravo  ..  what a remarkable find.   Maybe the definitive book on Katyn has yet to be written ..      Stefan J      
      Message 53 of 53 , Jan 5, 2013
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
         
        Dear Mark,
         
        Bravo  ..  what a remarkable find.
         
        Maybe the definitive book on Katyn has yet to be written .. 
         
         
        Stefan J
         
         
         

        From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 10:31:33 AM
        Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
         
        Dear Stefan,
         
        So mystery solved. 448 it is but... there were two separate periods of transportation.
        The 395 were sent at the time of/after the murders. They were directly spared from execution as they were happening. The first transport was 29 March 1940, a few days after Beria recommended shooting the Poles, but just before the killings actually started.
         
        From each camp – transported:
        Kozielsk – 24
        Starobielsk – 22
        Ostaszkov – 7
        -----------------
        Total: 53
         
        Most of these were transported to Yukhnovsky camp.
         
        The full list of names is in a memo [No.17] from Sudoplatov, a Major in Section Five [Counterintelligence] of State Security.
         
        Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

         
         
        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Dan,
        >
        > Yes, as you mention, the Zadowny book was one of earliest books on Katyn. It was published in 1962, and so had the
        > advantage of many eyewitness POW accounts (the publisher claims 150) that were relatively fresh memories. Of course,
        > it had the huge disadvantage of not have access to most of the Soviet records, certainly not those that were released
        > in 1991, and subsequently.   .. History is indeed a work in progress!
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > Stefan J
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Dan Ford
        > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 5:49:01 AM
        > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
        >
        >
        >  
        > Do understand that Mr Zadowny's book was very early, perhaps the first
        > to delve into the massacres at any length. History works by accretion
        > and by questioning what was assumed. You really can't compare "Death in
        > the Forest" with "Katyn--Crime Without Punishment" which represents huge
        > advances in what is known.
        >
        > There is also a huge difference in what historians know and what society
        > at large know. Perhaps because I came to history late (I started out by
        > making stuff up--I was a novelist) this always surprises me. "Nazi death
        > camps" and indeed even the word "Nazi" as a substitute for "German" is a
        > good example. Then there's "Wehrmacht" which almost everyone uses to
        > mean "Germany army," when the army was the Heer, one of three military
        > forces, the others being the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe. Those are
        > just words, but the same is true of events. Well -- take the Polish
        > cavalry charging German tanks! Again, every historian (in the field)
        > knows it's not true, but you will never get it out of the media and the
        > common knowledge.
        >
        > Historians joke (rather sourly) that American college students know two
        > things about World War Two: that the Americans used an atomic bomb on
        > Hiroshima, and that the Japanese in retaliation bombed Pearl Harbor.
        > It's only a slight exaggeration. And those college students go on to be
        > the newspaper and television writers and editors of the future. -- Dan
        > Ford US
        >
        > On 1/3/2013 2:27 AM, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
        > > I had a closer look at Zadownys' book, "Death in the Forrest", and can
        > > see that his discrepency in the numbers of Katyn
        > > survivors in 1940 vs. 1941 is clearly acknowledged.
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.