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Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

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  • Barbara Milligan
    Sadly Russia did a lot of ethnic cleansing - first to Siberia, then to the Gdansk/Olsztyn area which had, before WW2 been lived in by Germanic people.The
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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      Sadly Russia did a lot of ethnic cleansing - first to Siberia, then to the Gdansk/Olsztyn area which had, before WW2  been lived in by Germanic people.The remaining Poles had a very tough time and seemingly still do. The Russian population in Lithuania is now very large and influential - or so we found when we visited. The Lithuanians we met were lovely.

      Basia (UK)


      On 26 Nov 2012, at 15:51, John Halucha wrote:

       


      Vilnius promises surveillance after Pilsudski tomb profanation

      25.11.2012 16:18
      Authorities in Vilnius have pledged to introduce surveillance after a tomb with the heart of Polish independence hero Marshal Jozef Pilsudski was profaned in the Lithuanian capital.
      The
      The Pilsudski tomb, Rossa Cemetery: photo - wikipedia
      ╲Polish ambassador Janusz Skolimowski has received a promise from the authorities in Vilnius concerning the introduction of surveillance at the Rossa Cemetery,╡ confirmed Foreign Ministry spokesman Marcin Bosacki in an interview with the Polish Press Agency (PAP).
      ╲Talks between the embassy and Vilnius authorities on technical matters concerning the surveillance will he held over the coming days,╡ he added.
      On Saturday, unknown persons draped a banner over the tomb (which contains the remains of Jozef Pilsudski's mother and the marshal's heart). The banner threatened Waldemar Tomaszewski, leader of Polish minority political party The Electoral Action of Poles (LLRA).
      LLRA won seats in the Lithuanian parliament for the first time in this autumn's elections (eight seats in all).
      ╲Tomaszewski, if you do not stop harming Lithuania, you will end up here,╡ ran the wording on the banner covering the tomb.
      A cardboard box next to the tomb carried the words ╲Attention bomb╡ and ╲Poles die.╡
      It is the second incident at the site this year, following an incident in June when it the tomb was splashed with red paint.
      The Polish minority in Lithuania had been at odds with the outgoing government. Problems included reforms that weakened the autonomy of Polish minority schools, as well as disagreements about whether Poles should be entitled to use Polish spelling in official documents. Similarly, Poles claimed that there was bias against them in reclaiming property seized by the communists in the wake of the Second World War.
      Jozef Pilsudski (1867-1935), the so-called ╲father of Polish independence╡ was born in lands that now belong to Lithuania.
      In the wake of the First World War, the newly reborn Poland seized Vilnius â•„ which at that time was numerically dominated by ethnic Poles â•„ in October 1920.
      Lithuania, which had itself re-emerged as a state, broke off diplomatic relations with Poland, only to re-establish them under pressure in 1938. (nh)


    • Stanislaw Zwierzynski
      Dear Basia! Russian - is a nation. Soviet Communists who tried by genocide - have no nationality. Contagion of communism brought into Russian Empire from
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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        Dear Basia!

        Russian - is a nation.
        Soviet Communists who tried by genocide - have no nationality. Contagion of communism brought into Russian Empire from London, where  Marx worked, who sheltered English. Then infection picked up  International. Which, by the way, tried to wash away all grounds of nationality - remaining (in their plans) people should not have nationality.
        In Russia there was a "successful" implementation of communism, from which then started (and maybe even flinch in future) the whole world.
        Several blood tests, in addition, held in Germany in 1918-20., in Spain (1936-38), but scale was not the same. Much blood was shed in South America in the late 19th century - we just do not know much.
        Following your logic, I want to ask - that you Basia, who by nationality - Polish or English?
        If you are an English, then you may be indirectly involved in genocide, including Polish people, because from England communism began to travel around Europe.
        And if you're Polish, you should be ashamed of Gomulka times in the 50's, when remaining Jews almost squeezed (and squeezed almost all) to Israel. Now, as far as I know, this topic does not love to climb in Poland, but the Jews did not forget anything.

        Soviet NKVD paring Lithuania equally as Lithuanians and Poles, for it - no nationality, they did not care. That percentage of Poles in Vilnius region after 1946 greatly diminished and continues to decline - "merit" of Lithuania and do not interfere here intrigues USSR. After the war, many Poles have decided to go to Poland, until 1956, they were given away free. Some then wanted to go back, but could not.

        Basia, national question in Poland (Russia, Spain, Bulgaria, Great Britain - the big list) - very sharp actually. So Basia, be careful on national question, and do not mix politics with it.

        By the way, my friend and a member of our group, Jan Zakharewicz from South Africa (osada Marysin, Niechniewicze) wrote me that when he visited his home in Lithuania, he was met with hostility when they learned that he was a Pole, and that he had once lived here. He was shocked.

        You spoke well of Lithuanians (and my fellow Lithuanians - also very nice people), because you "not crossed their path." If you would (when visiting Lithuanian) positioned yourself as polka of those, who lived there, you would probably see a different attitude.

        Stan from M.


        From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:07 PM
        Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

         
        Sadly Russia did a lot of ethnic cleansing - first to Siberia, then to the Gdansk/Olsztyn area which had, before WW2  been lived in by Germanic people.The remaining Poles had a very tough time and seemingly still do. The Russian population in Lithuania is now very large and influential - or so we found when we visited. The Lithuanians we met were lovely.

        Basia (UK)

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      • Barbara Milligan
        Dear Stan, If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am British. However, if it s what ones genes are, then blood and bone I am Polish.
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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          Dear Stan,

          If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am British. However, if it's what ones genes are, then blood and bone I am Polish. I refer to Russians because my family spoke of "Ruscy" ie Russians when they spoke of the Russian invasion of Wilno and of their time in Siberia. They also distinguished all the many Russians who were kind, helpful and sympathetic by referring to them as Rosjanki and Rosjanin. Their torturers and interrogators were NKWD (NKVD). I do not have any bad feelings towards the people of Russia whatever their original genetic make-up. Indeed I must have some family living in Russia as my grandfather was the the grandson of a Sybirak and spoke Russian better than Polish, he was a gold medalist lawyer from Moscow University who was hauled off to join the Tsar's army in 1914 to fight in the first World War. His brother was shot (in Russia) in one of Stalin's "purges " in 1937. He was a doctor. As my grandfather was born and bred in Russia does that make me part Russian? I think not.

          We did visit our old family homes in Lithuania but were greeted with kindness as we made it very plain from the outset that we were definitely NOT seeking to reclaim any property as we respected the sufferings that the Lithuanians had endured. And believe me, they were great. The Russians we met there called themselves Russians not Lithuanians or Soviets, yet they were the offspring of Russian soldiers. The Lithuanians had to fight for their freedom from Russian fiefdom just over 20 years ago. In the 1900s Lithuania, like Poland was twice under Russian rule. Just a historical fact. I don't think it worth getting agitated over. It happened, it's past, and every single person whether historian or individual has their own individual truth and experience on which they base their perceptions. Nobody has the right to try and remove that from them. The fact that X had different experiences and perceptions from Y despite sharing a similar overall experience does not mean that one of them is more right than the other. 

          It is indeed a very muddled world and that part of the European continent has always been especially troubled and mixed. All that is needed is respect and tolerance for friendship to flourish. Tit for tat and intolerance lead to enmity and wars.

          Many thanks for translating the incredible folklore (Russian) which my grandfather received from he knew not where nor from whom whilst he was fighting the Germans in the Egyptian desert. A third generation surprise conundrum! It was most kind of you.

          Best wishes,

          Basia (UK)


          On 26 Nov 2012, at 18:14, Stanislaw Zwierzynski wrote:

           

          Dear Basia!

          Russian - is a nation.
          Soviet Communists who tried by genocide - have no nationality. Contagion of communism brought into Russian Empire from London, where  Marx worked, who sheltered English. Then infection picked up  International. Which, by the way, tried to wash away all grounds of nationality - remaining (in their plans) people should not have nationality.
          In Russia there was a "successful" implementation of communism, from which then started (and maybe even flinch in future) the whole world.
          Several blood tests, in addition, held in Germany in 1918-20., in Spain (1936-38), but scale was not the same. Much blood was shed in South America in the late 19th century - we just do not know much.
          Following your logic, I want to ask - that you Basia, who by nationality - Polish or English?
          If you are an English, then you may be indirectly involved in genocide, including Polish people, because from England communism began to travel around Europe.
          And if you're Polish, you should be ashamed of Gomulka times in the 50's, when remaining Jews almost squeezed (and squeezed almost all) to Israel. Now, as far as I know, this topic does not love to climb in Poland, but the Jews did not forget anything.

          Soviet NKVD paring Lithuania equally as Lithuanians and Poles, for it - no nationality, they did not care. That percentage of Poles in Vilnius region after 1946 greatly diminished and continues to decline - "merit" of Lithuania and do not interfere here intrigues USSR. After the war, many Poles have decided to go to Poland, until 1956, they were given away free. Some then wanted to go back, but could not.

          Basia, national question in Poland (Russia, Spain, Bulgaria, Great Britain - the big list) - very sharp actually. So Basia, be careful on national question, and do not mix politics with it.

          By the way, my friend and a member of our group, Jan Zakharewicz from South Africa (osada Marysin, Niechniewicze) wrote me that when he visited his home in Lithuania, he was met with hostility when they learned that he was a Pole, and that he had once lived here. He was shocked.

          You spoke well of Lithuanians (and my fellow Lithuanians - also very nice people), because you "not crossed their path." If you would (when visiting Lithuanian) positioned yourself as polka of those, who lived there, you would probably see a different attitude.

          Stan from M.


          From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:07 PM
          Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

           
          Sadly Russia did a lot of ethnic cleansing - first to Siberia, then to the Gdansk/Olsztyn area which had, before WW2  been lived in by Germanic people.The remaining Poles had a very tough time and seemingly still do. The Russian population in Lithuania is now very large and influential - or so we found when we visited. The Lithuanians we met were lovely.

          Basia (UK)

          Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)
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        • Stanislaw Zwierzynski
          Dear Basia! Frankly, I had forgotten that I something translated. I m glad if it helped you to see life and fate of the other side. I am tried to help some,
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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            Dear Basia!

            Frankly, I had forgotten that I something translated.
            I'm glad if it helped you to see life and fate of the other side.
            I am tried to help some, but if something disturbs me, I will not argue.

            I wish you only good and happiness.
            My opinion it is necessary to take into account with correct Mark said, some of my heightened perception of certain historical events. But it is off topic of this forum.

            Stan from M.


            From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
            To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:15 PM
            Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

             
            Dear Stan,

            If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am British. However, if it's what ones genes are, then blood and bone I am Polish. I refer to Russians because my family spoke of "Ruscy" ie Russians when they spoke of the Russian invasion of Wilno and of their time in Siberia. They also distinguished all the many Russians who were kind, helpful and sympathetic by referring to them as Rosjanki and Rosjanin. Their torturers and interrogators were NKWD (NKVD). I do not have any bad feelings towards the people of Russia whatever their original genetic make-up. Indeed I must have some family living in Russia as my grandfather was the the grandson of a Sybirak and spoke Russian better than Polish, he was a gold medalist lawyer from Moscow University who was hauled off to join the Tsar's army in 1914 to fight in the first World War. His brother was shot (in Russia) in one of Stalin's "purges " in 1937. He was a doctor. As my grandfather was born and bred in Russia does that make me part Russian? I think not.

            We did visit our old family homes in Lithuania but were greeted with kindness as we made it very plain from the outset that we were definitely NOT seeking to reclaim any property as we respected the sufferings that the Lithuanians had endured. And believe me, they were great. The Russians we met there called themselves Russians not Lithuanians or Soviets, yet they were the offspring of Russian soldiers. The Lithuanians had to fight for their freedom from Russian fiefdom just over 20 years ago. In the 1900s Lithuania, like Poland was twice under Russian rule. Just a historical fact. I don't think it worth getting agitated over. It happened, it's past, and every single person whether historian or individual has their own individual truth and experience on which they base their perceptions. Nobody has the right to try and remove that from them. The fact that X had different experiences and perceptions from Y despite sharing a similar overall experience does not mean that one of them is more right than the other. 

            It is indeed a very muddled world and that part of the European continent has always been especially troubled and mixed. All that is needed is respect and tolerance for friendship to flourish. Tit for tat and intolerance lead to enmity and wars.

            Many thanks for translating the incredible folklore (Russian) which my grandfather received from he knew not where nor from whom whilst he was fighting the Germans in the Egyptian desert. A third generation surprise conundrum! It was most kind of you.

            Best wishes,

            Basia (UK)

            From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
            To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:07 PM
            Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

             
            Sadly Russia did a lot of ethnic cleansing - first to Siberia, then to the Gdansk/Olsztyn area which had, before WW2  been lived in by Germanic people.The remaining Poles had a very tough time and seemingly still do. The Russian population in Lithuania is now very large and influential - or so we found when we visited. The Lithuanians we met were lovely.

            Basia (UK)

            Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)
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          • Dan Ford
            When Gomulka had to comment on Poland s new borders (and the ethnic cleansing that accompanied them) he justified them by explaining: Western expansion and
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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              When Gomulka had to comment on Poland's new borders (and the ethnic
              cleansing that accompanied them) he justified them by explaining:
              "Western expansion and agricultural reform will bind the nation to the
              state." This is a very difficult notion for an American to grasp, but I
              suspect it would instantly be understandable by anyone in central Europe
              in the 1930s and 1940s. The state is the geographical construct with a
              certain form of government. The nation is the tradition to which one's
              personal identity is bound up. All those sometimes warring nations
              within the Polish state --Germans in the west, Ukrainians and
              Belarussians in the east, Jews in the urban areas, and Poles
              everywhere--were a large part of the problem in the 1930s and 1940s.
              Poland is now more like the United States, in which the nation and the
              state are one, but in the process a million or so Poles were scattered
              around the world, still belonging to the Polish nation while under the
              protection of some other state.

              Incidentally, when my friend Basia visited Lwow in September, she
              expressed the experience by saying: "In England, I feel Polish. In
              Poland, I feel English. But in Lwow I felt just right."

              - Dan Ford US

              On 11/26/2012 2:15 PM, Barbara Milligan wrote:
              > If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am
              > British. However, if it's what ones genes are, then blood and bone I
              > am Polish.
            • LenardaSzymczak
              Basia UK, well spoken in your post, more information for the soul and heart, also it is good to see I am not alone as your Grandfather and my Grandfather were
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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                Basia UK, well spoken in your post, more information for the soul and heart, also it is good to see I am not alone as your Grandfather and my Grandfather were conscripted to fight in Tzars Army.  My Grandfather was very much Polish and had 7 years school, spoke 5 languages, was in Tzars Calvary, captured by Germans, escaped by swimming the River Volga, then travelled through Finland, Denmark on foot, going back home to Poland, where he met my Grandmother in Plock, married her 1918 and then travelled to Niwna, 60k from Zhitomir and 30k from Slucz River.  He was very much Polish and not Russian and my mother and I are very much Polish in our blood and bones, but the borders kept changing and the rest of history we already know. but vandals do not need nationality or language, they are very bad people who do criminal acts and have no respect for any nationality or country or law by those in authority.

                Warmest regards,

                Lenarda, Australia

                 

                From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Milligan
                Sent: Tuesday, 27 November, 2012 6:15 AM
                To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

                 

                 

                Dear Stan,

                 

                If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am British. However, if it's what ones genes are, then blood and bone I am Polish. I refer to Russians because my family spoke of "Ruscy" ie Russians when they spoke of the Russian invasion of Wilno and of their time in Siberia. They also distinguished all the many Russians who were kind, helpful and sympathetic by referring to them as Rosjanki and Rosjanin. Their torturers and interrogators were NKWD (NKVD). I do not have any bad feelings towards the people of Russia whatever their original genetic make-up. Indeed I must have some family living in Russia as my grandfather was the the grandson of a Sybirak and spoke Russian better than Polish, he was a gold medalist lawyer from Moscow University who was hauled off to join the Tsar's army in 1914 to fight in the first World War. His brother was shot (in Russia) in one of Stalin's "purges " in 1937. He was a doctor. As my grandfather was born and bred in Russia does that make me part Russian? I think not.

                 

                We did visit our old family homes in Lithuania but were greeted with kindness as we made it very plain from the outset that we were definitely NOT seeking to reclaim any property as we respected the sufferings that the Lithuanians had endured. And believe me, they were great. The Russians we met there called themselves Russians not Lithuanians or Soviets, yet they were the offspring of Russian soldiers. The Lithuanians had to fight for their freedom from Russian fiefdom just over 20 years ago. In the 1900s Lithuania, like Poland was twice under Russian rule. Just a historical fact. I don't think it worth getting agitated over. It happened, it's past, and every single person whether historian or individual has their own individual truth and experience on which they base their perceptions. Nobody has the right to try and remove that from them. The fact that X had different experiences and perceptions from Y despite sharing a similar overall experience does not mean that one of them is more right than the other. 

                 

                It is indeed a very muddled world and that part of the European continent has always been especially troubled and mixed. All that is needed is respect and tolerance for friendship to flourish. Tit for tat and intolerance lead to enmity and wars.

                 

                Many thanks for translating the incredible folklore (Russian) which my grandfather received from he knew not where nor from whom whilst he was fighting the Germans in the Egyptian desert. A third generation surprise conundrum! It was most kind of you.

                 

                Best wishes,

                 

                Basia (UK)

                 

                 

                On 26 Nov 2012, at 18:14, Stanislaw Zwierzynski wrote:



                 

                 

                Dear Basia!

                 

                Russian - is a nation.

                Soviet Communists who tried by genocide - have no nationality. Contagion of communism brought into Russian Empire from London, where  Marx worked, who sheltered English. Then infection picked up  International. Which, by the way, tried to wash away all grounds of nationality - remaining (in their plans) people should not have nationality.
                In Russia there was a "successful" implementation of communism, from which then started (and maybe even flinch in future) the whole world.
                Several blood tests, in addition, held in Germany in 1918-20., in Spain (1936-38), but scale was not the same. Much blood was shed in South America in the late 19th century - we just do not know much.
                Following your logic, I want to ask - that you Basia, who by nationality - Polish or English?
                If you are an English, then you may be indirectly involved in genocide, including Polish people, because from England communism began to travel around Europe.
                And if you're Polish, you should be ashamed of Gomulka times in the 50's, when remaining Jews almost squeezed (and squeezed almost all) to Israel. Now, as far as I know, this topic does not love to climb in Poland, but the Jews did not forget anything.

                Soviet NKVD paring Lithuania equally as Lithuanians and Poles, for it - no nationality, they did not care. That percentage of Poles in Vilnius region after 1946 greatly diminished and continues to decline - "merit" of Lithuania and do not interfere here intrigues USSR. After the war, many Poles have decided to go to Poland, until 1956, they were given away free. Some then wanted to go back, but could not.

                Basia, national question in Poland (Russia, Spain, Bulgaria, Great Britain - the big list) - very sharp actually. So Basia, be careful on national question, and do not mix politics with it.

                By the way, my friend and a member of our group, Jan Zakharewicz from South Africa (osada Marysin, Niechniewicze) wrote me that when he visited his home in Lithuania, he was met with hostility when they learned that he was a Pole, and that he had once lived here. He was shocked.

                You spoke well of Lithuanians (and my fellow Lithuanians - also very nice people), because you "not crossed their path." If you would (when visiting Lithuanian) positioned yourself as polka of those, who lived there, you would probably see a different attitude.

                Stan from M.


                From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
                To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:07 PM
                Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

                 

                 

                Sadly Russia did a lot of ethnic cleansing - first to Siberia, then to the Gdansk/Olsztyn area which had, before WW2  been lived in by Germanic people.The remaining Poles had a very tough time and seemingly still do. The Russian population in Lithuania is now very large and influential - or so we found when we visited. The Lithuanians we met were lovely.

                 

                Basia (UK)

                 

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              • Stanislaw Zwierzynski
                Dan I absolutely agree with you. In Poland is a unique situation where titular nation and citizens - are one and the same. So I believe in future of Polish. 
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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                  Dan
                  I absolutely agree with you.
                  In Poland is a unique situation where titular nation and citizens - are one and the same. So I believe in future of Polish. 

                  In Russia, it is difficult, in Belarus (I was there recently) a little easier, in Ukraine - is very difficult. 

                  I used, that all who lives in Spain, considered by Spaniards. It turns out - no, no one wants to sacrifice even 10% of their income to brothers and sisters to live them better. We are - all brothers and sisters, and as part of a national tradition - especially. 

                  Stan from M.


                  From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
                  To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:46 PM
                  Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

                  When Gomulka had to comment on Poland's new borders (and the ethnic
                  cleansing that accompanied them) he justified them by explaining:
                  "Western expansion and agricultural reform will bind the nation to the
                  state." This is a very difficult notion for an American to grasp, but I
                  suspect it would instantly be understandable by anyone in central Europe
                  in the 1930s and 1940s. The state is the geographical construct with a
                  certain form of government. The nation is the tradition to which one's
                  personal identity is bound up. All those sometimes warring nations
                  within the Polish state --Germans in the west, Ukrainians and
                  Belarussians in the east, Jews in the urban areas, and Poles
                  everywhere--were a large part of the problem in the 1930s and 1940s.
                  Poland is now more like the United States, in which the nation and the
                  state are one, but in the process a million or so Poles were scattered
                  around the world, still belonging to the Polish nation while under the
                  protection of some other state.

                  Incidentally, when my friend Basia visited Lwow in September, she
                  expressed the experience by saying: "In England, I feel Polish. In
                  Poland, I feel English. But in Lwow I felt just right."

                  - Dan Ford US

                  On 11/26/2012 2:15 PM, Barbara Milligan wrote:
                  > If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am
                  > British. However, if it's what ones genes are, then blood and bone I
                  > am Polish.



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                • Basia
                  Stan, Dan, Basia I will add my Australian cent s worth I was born in Germany ­ why? Because my parents were there at the end of the war. Do I feel even
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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                    Stan, Dan, Basia
                    I will add my "Australian cent's worth"
                    I was born in Germany – why? Because my parents were there at the end of the war.
                    Do I feel even remotely German? No, I do not.
                    Do I feel any connection with Germany?
                    Only that it is where I was born, and certainly when I visited Leer, my place of birth, a few years ago, and enjoyed dinner at the town hall restaurant where my parents had their wedding reception, 
                    and walked the streets of the city they spent two post war years in, before coming to England,
                    I felt "warm and fuzzy with sentimentality" and absolutely thrilled to be able to actually visit the place, in part tracing both my parents journey and my own birth place roots.
                    I lived in a displaced persons camp in England for effectively the first 12 years of my life (I was 5 months old when we arrived in England)
                    Everything was Polish, The church, school, shop, social club, all the people (actually I remember references to "The Ukrainian, the Lithuanian" which even as a child I recognised as a difference somehow, to the Poles).
                    The English were treated with mistrust, I was told numerous times to never believe them. 
                    Today I understand the reasoning behind  this, felt by the generation who had battled the war,  however I personally have very many, very dear English friends, post war generation.
                    I was the first kid in the Polish school in the camp to go to the local English primary village school. 
                    As I spoke not a word of English, I was different, was that difference negative? Not at all. Everyone wanted to be my best friend – and not,because I have some amazing personality!
                    My being different, from "that camp" ,  was enjoyed.
                    Even at the time, I was aware of being encouraged and helped by teachers, and having worked as a teacher myself, I realise they would have been primed to encourage me.
                    I did very well indeed during my time there and heard not a single word of negativity against the Poles. (I was fluent in english within 6 months)
                    I was as curious about my fellow school friends (who lived in real houses, some with staircases which led to an upper level- imagine!) as they were about me, living in a nissan hut. 
                    I made my first visit to Poland aged 19, naively, I now realise, hoping to be a Pole amongst real Poles, at last.  My Polishness had been so carefully nurtured at home, in the camp, and sternly in the church.
                    I was to face a huge disappointment. To  my Polish relatives I was the English grand daughter, niece and cousin. It was not a great feeling. I wanted to be truly accepted by my family. Now I have to say, that whilst their hospitality was as only Polish hospitality can be, and I rejoiced in finally meeting my relatives (at this stage only on my mother's side) I was not, to them, a "real" Pole. (by their definition)
                    Incidentally I travelled on a Polish travel document, quite different to the Polish passports issued in Poland at the time.
                    And of course I was different. My relatives in Poland endured post war hardships which I did not, however, eventually, not so very long ago, I pointed out to my very much treasured Polish relatives, that yes indeed, we could, through hard work, achieve materialist benefits, which were not possible, under the communist regime, for Poles in Poland.
                    But you know what I acutely felt. The loss of an extended family. I was only able to identify this much later in life.My relatives in Poland had their whole extended families.  A wonderful thing, even in Post war Poland.
                    Today as a mother and grandmother, I value nothing as much as my family, and I am thrilled to be the matriarch of three post war generations.
                    Back to my Polishness, when eventually I visited my father's side of Poland, I(15 years ago) including finding cousins, I was prepared for the instant rejection of my claim to Polishness, by this time I was the Australian relative. 
                    I ignored all that and allowed my heart to sing as I connected to what Barbara Milligan states "the Polish genes, blood and bone" and my Polish heart and soul.
                    Finally I accepted that indeed I am very Polish, (whatever others may think) I live a fortunate life of choice, I absolutely adore living in Australia, and simultaneously my Polishness responds to Polish music, poetry, traditions, and those genes, those bones, the blood which pumps through my heart.
                    It is not a sentimental observation, it is very real. I have wonderful Polish friends and observe some Polish traditions, but it is only part of my life, I also embrace all that Australia offers. 
                    Since joining the Kresy Siberia site, my Polishness is very much in focus, but in fact it is my familial Polish roots which have stirred me so deeply. All that my father (In Siberia and in the theatre of war during the last year of war) and my mother, who was taken from her home to work in Germany, and how their displacement has affected me.
                    I am at heart a Pole, and yet I am different, because of my life experience, to the Poles in Poland, and, for that matter, anywhere else in the world.
                    Undoubtedly something very powerful and very Polish binds us.
                    Basia Zielinska (Sydney)


                    From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
                    Reply-To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:01:00 -0800 (PST)
                    To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

                     

                    Dan
                    I absolutely agree with you.
                    In Poland is a unique situation where titular nation and citizens - are one and the same. So I believe in future of Polish. 

                    In Russia, it is difficult, in Belarus (I was there recently) a little easier, in Ukraine - is very difficult. 

                    I used, that all who lives in Spain, considered by Spaniards. It turns out - no, no one wants to sacrifice even 10% of their income to brothers and sisters to live them better. We are - all brothers and sisters, and as part of a national tradition - especially. 

                    Stan from M.


                    From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:46 PM
                    Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

                    When Gomulka had to comment on Poland's new borders (and the ethnic
                    cleansing that accompanied them) he justified them by explaining:
                    "Western expansion and agricultural reform will bind the nation to the
                    state." This is a very difficult notion for an American to grasp, but I
                    suspect it would instantly be understandable by anyone in central Europe
                    in the 1930s and 1940s. The state is the geographical construct with a
                    certain form of government. The nation is the tradition to which one's
                    personal identity is bound up. All those sometimes warring nations
                    within the Polish state --Germans in the west, Ukrainians and
                    Belarussians in the east, Jews in the urban areas, and Poles
                    everywhere--were a large part of the problem in the 1930s and 1940s.
                    Poland is now more like the United States, in which the nation and the
                    state are one, but in the process a million or so Poles were scattered
                    around the world, still belonging to the Polish nation while under the
                    protection of some other state.

                    Incidentally, when my friend Basia visited Lwow in September, she
                    expressed the experience by saying: "In England, I feel Polish. In
                    Poland, I feel English. But in Lwow I felt just right."

                    - Dan Ford US

                    On 11/26/2012 2:15 PM, Barbara Milligan wrote:
                    > If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am
                    > British. However, if it's what ones genes are, then blood and bone I
                    > am Polish.



                    ------------------------------------

                    _______________________________________________________________________
                    * PLEASE PAY YOUR ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP FEE & MAKE A DONATION: http://tinyurl.com/ks-contribute
                    ____________________________________________________________

                    * Visit our merchandise & Bookstore: http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
                    _______________________________________________________________________

                    KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP & FOUNDATION

                    "Research, Remembrance and Recognition of Polish citizens fighting for freedom in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."
                    _______________________________________________________________________
                    OUR WEBSITES

                    * Discussion group       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                    * Virtual Museum          http://www.kresy-siberia.org/
                    * Facebook Page!          http://www.facebook.com/KSF.FKS
                    * Memorial gallery        http://kresy-siberia.com/gallery
                    * Kresy property claims  http://www.kresy-claims.org
                    * Merchandise & Bookstore http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
                    _______________________________________________________________________

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                      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com

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                      saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                      Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                  • LenardaSzymczak
                    Basia Z. Well spoken, these are the life experience, thoughts and feelings of many especially I am at heart a Pole, and yet I am different, because of my
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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                      Basia Z.  Well spoken, these are the life experience, thoughts and feelings of many especially “I am at heart a Pole, and yet I am different, because of my life experience, to the Poles in Poland, and, for that matter, anywhere else in the world.”

                       

                      This is why; I believe that Kresy-Siberia Group is so special to us all, because we understand each other completely.

                       

                      Did you see Polish Christmas Festival – Darling Harbour, Sydney, 2.12.2012?  I will try to go with my daughters (depending on Babcia health) and introduce them to their Polish side.  

                       

                      Thank you Stefan for starting this group.

                       

                      Warmest wishes

                      Lenarda, Australia

                       

                       

                      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Basia
                      Sent: Tuesday, 27 November, 2012 9:48 AM
                      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: Mac User
                      Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

                       

                       

                      Stan, Dan, Basia

                      I will add my "Australian cent's worth"

                      I was born in Germany – why? Because my parents were there at the end of the war.

                      Do I feel even remotely German? No, I do not.

                      Do I feel any connection with Germany?

                      Only that it is where I was born, and certainly when I visited Leer, my place of birth, a few years ago, and enjoyed dinner at the town hall restaurant where my parents had their wedding reception, 

                      and walked the streets of the city they spent two post war years in, before coming to England,

                      I felt "warm and fuzzy with sentimentality" and absolutely thrilled to be able to actually visit the place, in part tracing both my parents journey and my own birth place roots.

                      I lived in a displaced persons camp in England for effectively the first 12 years of my life (I was 5 months old when we arrived in England)

                      Everything was Polish, The church, school, shop, social club, all the people (actually I remember references to "The Ukrainian, the Lithuanian" which even as a child I recognised as a difference somehow, to the Poles).

                      The English were treated with mistrust, I was told numerous times to never believe them. 

                      Today I understand the reasoning behind  this, felt by the generation who had battled the war,  however I personally have very many, very dear English friends, post war generation.

                      I was the first kid in the Polish school in the camp to go to the local English primary village school. 

                      As I spoke not a word of English, I was different, was that difference negative? Not at all. Everyone wanted to be my best friend – and not,because I have some amazing personality!

                      My being different, from "that camp" ,  was enjoyed.

                      Even at the time, I was aware of being encouraged and helped by teachers, and having worked as a teacher myself, I realise they would have been primed to encourage me.

                      I did very well indeed during my time there and heard not a single word of negativity against the Poles. (I was fluent in english within 6 months)

                      I was as curious about my fellow school friends (who lived in real houses, some with staircases which led to an upper level- imagine!) as they were about me, living in a nissan hut. 

                      I made my first visit to Poland aged 19, naively, I now realise, hoping to be a Pole amongst real Poles, at last.  My Polishness had been so carefully nurtured at home, in the camp, and sternly in the church.

                      I was to face a huge disappointment. To  my Polish relatives I was the English grand daughter, niece and cousin. It was not a great feeling. I wanted to be truly accepted by my family. Now I have to say, that whilst their hospitality was as only Polish hospitality can be, and I rejoiced in finally meeting my relatives (at this stage only on my mother's side) I was not, to them, a "real" Pole. (by their definition)

                      Incidentally I travelled on a Polish travel document, quite different to the Polish passports issued in Poland at the time.

                      And of course I was different. My relatives in Poland endured post war hardships which I did not, however, eventually, not so very long ago, I pointed out to my very much treasured Polish relatives, that yes indeed, we could, through hard work, achieve materialist benefits, which were not possible, under the communist regime, for Poles in Poland.

                      But you know what I acutely felt. The loss of an extended family. I was only able to identify this much later in life.My relatives in Poland had their whole extended families.  A wonderful thing, even in Post war Poland.

                      Today as a mother and grandmother, I value nothing as much as my family, and I am thrilled to be the matriarch of three post war generations.

                      Back to my Polishness, when eventually I visited my father's side of Poland, I(15 years ago) including finding cousins, I was prepared for the instant rejection of my claim to Polishness, by this time I was the Australian relative. 

                      I ignored all that and allowed my heart to sing as I connected to what Barbara Milligan states "the Polish genes, blood and bone" and my Polish heart and soul.

                      Finally I accepted that indeed I am very Polish, (whatever others may think) I live a fortunate life of choice, I absolutely adore living in Australia, and simultaneously my Polishness responds to Polish music, poetry, traditions, and those genes, those bones, the blood which pumps through my heart.

                      It is not a sentimental observation, it is very real. I have wonderful Polish friends and observe some Polish traditions, but it is only part of my life, I also embrace all that Australia offers. 

                      Since joining the Kresy Siberia site, my Polishness is very much in focus, but in fact it is my familial Polish roots which have stirred me so deeply. All that my father (In Siberia and in the theatre of war during the last year of war) and my mother, who was taken from her home to work in Germany, and how their displacement has affected me.

                      I am at heart a Pole, and yet I am different, because of my life experience, to the Poles in Poland, and, for that matter, anywhere else in the world.

                      Undoubtedly something very powerful and very Polish binds us.

                      Basia Zielinska (Sydney)

                       

                       

                      From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
                      Reply-To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:01:00 -0800 (PST)
                      To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized

                       

                       

                      Dan
                      I absolutely agree with you.
                      In Poland is a unique situation where titular nation and citizens - are one and the same. So I believe in future of Polish. 

                      In Russia, it is difficult, in Belarus (I was there recently) a little easier, in Ukraine - is very difficult. 

                      I used, that all who lives in Spain, considered by Spaniards. It turns out - no, no one wants to sacrifice even 10% of their income to brothers and sisters to live them better. We are - all brothers and sisters, and as part of a national tradition - especially. 

                      Stan from M.

                       


                      From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
                      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:46 PM
                      Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Pilsudski tomb in Wilno vandalized


                      When Gomulka had to comment on Poland's new borders (and the ethnic
                      cleansing that accompanied them) he justified them by explaining:
                      "Western expansion and agricultural reform will bind the nation to the
                      state." This is a very difficult notion for an American to grasp, but I
                      suspect it would instantly be understandable by anyone in central Europe
                      in the 1930s and 1940s. The state is the geographical construct with a
                      certain form of government. The nation is the tradition to which one's
                      personal identity is bound up. All those sometimes warring nations
                      within the Polish state --Germans in the west, Ukrainians and
                      Belarussians in the east, Jews in the urban areas, and Poles
                      everywhere--were a large part of the problem in the 1930s and 1940s.
                      Poland is now more like the United States, in which the nation and the
                      state are one, but in the process a million or so Poles were scattered
                      around the world, still belonging to the Polish nation while under the
                      protection of some other state.

                      Incidentally, when my friend Basia visited Lwow in September, she
                      expressed the experience by saying: "In England, I feel Polish. In
                      Poland, I feel English. But in Lwow I felt just right."

                      - Dan Ford US

                      On 11/26/2012 2:15 PM, Barbara Milligan wrote:
                      > If what sort of passport we carry denotes our nationality, then I am
                      > British. However, if it's what ones genes are, then blood and bone I
                      > am Polish.



                      ------------------------------------

                      _______________________________________________________________________
                      * PLEASE PAY YOUR ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP FEE & MAKE A DONATION: http://tinyurl.com/ks-contribute
                      ____________________________________________________________

                      * Visit our merchandise & Bookstore: http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
                      _______________________________________________________________________

                      KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP & FOUNDATION

                      "Research, Remembrance and Recognition of Polish citizens fighting for freedom in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."
                      _______________________________________________________________________
                      OUR WEBSITES

                      * Discussion group       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                      * Virtual Museum          http://www.kresy-siberia.org/
                      * Facebook Page!          http://www.facebook.com/KSF.FKS
                      * Memorial gallery        http://kresy-siberia.com/gallery
                      * Kresy property claims  http://www.kresy-claims.org
                      * Merchandise & Bookstore http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
                      _______________________________________________________________________

                      * To CONTACT the Group Moderators please send an e-mail to:
                        Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com

                      * To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                        saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                        Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                    • twnkrissie
                      I am wondering which polish camp were you in, in the UK? I was born in Marsworth in Herts/Bucks.reading through your post I must say I resonated with what you
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 27, 2012
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                        I am wondering which polish camp were you in, in the UK? I was born in Marsworth in Herts/Bucks.reading through your post I must say I resonated with what you said a 100%! thanks you put it all so well!
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.