Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade

Expand Messages
  • Dan Ford
    Think of it this way: The smallest infantry group is a squad of ten or twelve men. Four squads make up a platoon, and four platoons plus headquarters make up a
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 18, 2012
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Think of it this way:

      The smallest infantry group is a squad of ten or twelve men. Four squads
      make up a platoon, and four platoons plus headquarters make up a
      company, so a company is about 150 men.

      Four companies in a battalion, along with headquarters staff and maybe a
      signals and a weapons platoon. So a battalion might be 600-1,000 men.

      Four battalions plus headquarters, artillery, and other support units
      in a brigade or regiment (they are about the same thing). So a brigade
      might be 4000-5000 men.

      Four brigades or regiments to a division, plus "div arty" and other
      support units, to a total of 10,000-15,000 men. You might for example
      have three infantry brigades/regiments and one armored brigade in a
      division. Or an armored brigade might be more or less independent,
      operating in support of one or more different infantry divisions at
      different times. Thus the British 7th Armoured Brigade "Desert Rats"
      went from North Africa to reinforce Burma in 1942.

      This varies of course from army to army and from war to war. During WW2,
      divisions were organized into corps, and corps were organized into
      armies, and armies were organized into army groups, until one was
      dealing with millions of men. Today, even the division is going out of
      fashion. The US Army is moving toward an organization in which brigades
      are the largest operating unit.

      - Dan Ford US

      On 11/18/2012 9:26 AM, Richard Kozlowski wrote:
      > I have no idea whether I mean battalion or brigade
    • Mark and Oyun
      Dear Rich and Dan, I don t think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is batalion . Oh, and your photo attachment didn t seem
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 18, 2012
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Rich and Dan,

        I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
        Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.

        By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.

        Best regards, Mark
      • Richard Kozlowski
        Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much. Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 18, 2012
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much.  Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:





          On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:

           

          Dear Rich and Dan,

          I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
          Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.

          By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.

          Best regards, Mark


        • ed Bator
          Dan, you gave the best explanation of the units organization. Many times it dependa on the mission  of particular unit, be it a team, squad, platoon,
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 18, 2012
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Dan, you gave the best explanation of the "units" organization.
            Many times it dependa on the "mission"  of particular unit, be it a team, squad, platoon, company or higher
            units like battalion, regiment/brigade, division, corp and finaly army.
            It also depends on combination of branches of the army as infantry, artilery, armor, signal, engeneer/saper,
            transportation, supply, medical etc., so in some cases there may be attachement of other branches to
            an infantry brigade that are not normaly a part of that brigade.  It all depends on the "MIssion".
             
            Good work Dan.  Stay with it.
             
            Ed (s.j.) USA
             
             
             

            From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
            To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:58 AM
            Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade

            Think of it this way:

            The smallest infantry group is a squad of ten or twelve men. Four squads
            make up a platoon, and four platoons plus headquarters make up a
            company, so a company is about 150 men.

            Four companies in a battalion, along with headquarters staff and maybe a
            signals and a weapons platoon. So a battalion might be 600-1,000 men.

            Four battalions plus headquarters, artillery, and other support units 
            in a brigade or regiment (they are about the same thing). So a brigade
            might be 4000-5000 men.

            Four brigades or regiments to a division, plus "div arty" and other
            support units, to a total of 10,000-15,000 men. You might for example
            have three infantry brigades/regiments and one armored brigade in a
            division. Or an armored brigade might be more or less independent,
            operating in support of one or more different infantry divisions at
            different times. Thus the British 7th Armoured Brigade "Desert Rats"
            went from North Africa to reinforce Burma in 1942.

            This varies of course from army to army and from war to war. During WW2,
            divisions were organized into corps, and corps were organized into
            armies, and armies were organized into army groups, until one was
            dealing with millions of men. Today, even the division is going out of
            fashion. The US Army is moving toward an organization in which brigades
            are the largest operating unit.

            - Dan Ford US

            On 11/18/2012 9:26 AM, Richard Kozlowski wrote:
            > I have no idea whether I mean battalion or brigade



            ------------------------------------

            _______________________________________________________________________
            * PLEASE PAY YOUR ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP FEE & MAKE A DONATION: http://tinyurl.com/ks-contribute
            ____________________________________________________________

            * Visit our merchandise & Bookstore: http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
            _______________________________________________________________________

            KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP & FOUNDATION

            "Research, Remembrance and Recognition of Polish citizens fighting for freedom in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."
            _______________________________________________________________________
            OUR WEBSITES

            * Discussion group       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
            * Virtual Museum          http://www.kresy-siberia.org/
            * Facebook Page!          http://www.facebook.com/KSF.FKS
            * Memorial gallery        http://kresy-siberia.com/gallery
            * Kresy property claims  http://www.kresy-claims.org
            * Merchandise & Bookstore http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
            _______________________________________________________________________

            * To CONTACT the Group Moderators please send an e-mail to:
              Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com

            * To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
              saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
              Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

            * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
              Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/

            <*> Your email settings:
                Individual Email | Traditional

            <*> To change settings online go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/join
                (Yahoo! ID required)

            <*> To change settings via email:
                Kresy-Siberia-digest@yahoogroups.com
                Kresy-Siberia-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



          • Basia
            Dan This is illuminating! Thank you Basia Zielinska (Sydney)
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 18, 2012
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Dan
              This is illuminating!
              Thank you

              Basia Zielinska (Sydney)







              On 18/11/12 4:58 AM, "Dan Ford" <cub06h@...> wrote:

              >Think of it this way:
              >
              >The smallest infantry group is a squad of ten or twelve men. Four squads
              >make up a platoon, and four platoons plus headquarters make up a
              >company, so a company is about 150 men.
              >
              >Four companies in a battalion, along with headquarters staff and maybe a
              >signals and a weapons platoon. So a battalion might be 600-1,000 men.
              >
              >Four battalions plus headquarters, artillery, and other support units
              >in a brigade or regiment (they are about the same thing). So a brigade
              >might be 4000-5000 men.
              >
              >Four brigades or regiments to a division, plus "div arty" and other
              >support units, to a total of 10,000-15,000 men. You might for example
              >have three infantry brigades/regiments and one armored brigade in a
              >division. Or an armored brigade might be more or less independent,
              >operating in support of one or more different infantry divisions at
              >different times. Thus the British 7th Armoured Brigade "Desert Rats"
              >went from North Africa to reinforce Burma in 1942.
              >
              >This varies of course from army to army and from war to war. During WW2,
              >divisions were organized into corps, and corps were organized into
              >armies, and armies were organized into army groups, until one was
              >dealing with millions of men. Today, even the division is going out of
              >fashion. The US Army is moving toward an organization in which brigades
              >are the largest operating unit.
              >
              >- Dan Ford US
              >
              >On 11/18/2012 9:26 AM, Richard Kozlowski wrote:
              >> I have no idea whether I mean battalion or brigade
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >_______________________________________________________________________
              >* PLEASE PAY YOUR ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP FEE & MAKE A DONATION:
              >http://tinyurl.com/ks-contribute
              >____________________________________________________________
              >
              >* Visit our merchandise & Bookstore: http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
              >_______________________________________________________________________
              >
              >KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP & FOUNDATION
              >
              >"Research, Remembrance and Recognition of Polish citizens fighting for
              >freedom in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."
              >_______________________________________________________________________
              >OUR WEBSITES
              >
              >* Discussion group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
              >* Virtual Museum http://www.kresy-siberia.org/
              >* Facebook Page! http://www.facebook.com/KSF.FKS
              >* Memorial gallery http://kresy-siberia.com/gallery
              >* Kresy property claims http://www.kresy-claims.org
              >* Merchandise & Bookstore http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
              >_______________________________________________________________________
              >
              >* To CONTACT the Group Moderators please send an e-mail to:
              > Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >* To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
              > saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
              > Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
              > Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Mark and Oyun
              Dear Rich, OK, the mist clears... a little. It s not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939. We ve talked about these pictures before:
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 18, 2012
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Rich,

                OK, the mist clears... a little. It's not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939. We've talked about these pictures before:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/message/49275
                The picture dates from 1943 so could not be a "Polish" Polish unit... Syria/Palestine more like.

                "3BP would normally be 3rd Armoured Brigade of Battalion but I'm fairly sure it's neither of these". I wrote that in March... but for the life of me I have no idea why I was so sure!

                This needs a little more work!

                Regards, Mark

                --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
                >
                > Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much. Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:
                >
                > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#25
                >
                > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#24
                >
                >
                >
                > On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                >
                > > Dear Rich and Dan,
                > >
                > > I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
                > > Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.
                > >
                > > By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.
                > >
                > > Best regards, Mark
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Richard Kozlowski
                Hi, Mark, yes, I remember our exchange of emails. That was before I learned that my dad fought in the Polish army in the September campaign. From the writing
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 18, 2012
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi, Mark, yes, I remember our exchange of emails.  That was before I learned that my dad fought in the Polish army in the September campaign.  From the writing on the back of the photo I get the impression that the two may have known each other before Anders and before Palestine, hence the reference to 3 B.P.  Do you think that is unlikely?  Rich


                  On Nov 18, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Mark and Oyun wrote:

                   

                  Dear Rich,

                  OK, the mist clears... a little. It's not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939. We've talked about these pictures before:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/message/49275
                  The picture dates from 1943 so could not be a "Polish" Polish unit... Syria/Palestine more like.

                  "3BP would normally be 3rd Armoured Brigade of Battalion but I'm fairly sure it's neither of these". I wrote that in March... but for the life of me I have no idea why I was so sure!

                  This needs a little more work!

                  Regards, Mark

                  --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much. Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:
                  >
                  > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#25
                  >
                  > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#24
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dear Rich and Dan,
                  > >
                  > > I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
                  > > Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.
                  > >
                  > > By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.
                  > >
                  > > Best regards, Mark
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • Mark and Oyun
                  Dear Rich, Brilliant! Your post got me thinking. Replace active service with national service and you may have something. It would then read A souvenir of
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 19, 2012
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Rich,

                    Brilliant! Your post got me thinking. Replace "active service" with "national service" and you may have something. It would then read "A souvenir of our army national service"...czynna sluzba.
                    This may well mean they knew each other in Poland before the war... it would then give 2 options for 3BP... 3rd Infantry Battalion... but every regiment had a 3rd battalions so this would render it meaningless, and Poles usually talked about which regiment [Pulk] or Division [Dywizja] they were in... or it could be 3 Batalion Pancerny
                    http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Batalion_Pancerny
                    which was formed in Warsaw. Could the word after 3BP, although rather squiggly, be Warszawa. It would make sense, especially since 3BP rings no bells with Anders and the 2nd Corps.
                    It could be the 3 Infantry Brigade, but this in unlikely as they did not use the P in Piechota for brigades. They were referred to as Rifle Brigades.. 3BS: 3 Brygada Strzelcow
                    The 3BPanc. [3 Armoured Brigade] was formed in 1935... so if he was 18ish between 1935 to 1938 this may be the time he did his national service.

                    This is my best guess. Regards, Mark.


                    --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, Mark, yes, I remember our exchange of emails. That was before I learned that my dad fought in the Polish army in the September campaign. From the writing on the back of the photo I get the impression that the two may have known each other before Anders and before Palestine, hence the reference to 3 B.P. Do you think that is unlikely? Rich
                    >
                    >
                    > On Nov 18, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dear Rich,
                    > >
                    > > OK, the mist clears... a little. It's not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939. We've talked about these pictures before:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/message/49275
                    > > The picture dates from 1943 so could not be a "Polish" Polish unit... Syria/Palestine more like.
                    > >
                    > > "3BP would normally be 3rd Armoured Brigade of Battalion but I'm fairly sure it's neither of these". I wrote that in March... but for the life of me I have no idea why I was so sure!
                    > >
                    > > This needs a little more work!
                    > >
                    > > Regards, Mark
                    > >
                    > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much. Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#25
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#24
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Dear Rich and Dan,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
                    > > > > Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Best regards, Mark
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Richard Kozlowski
                    Dear Mark, Geniek was born in 1917, making him 18 in 1935. He was a tank driver in the 4th Armoured (Skorpion) and listed driver as his experience when
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 19, 2012
                    View Source
                    • 1 Attachment
                    • 102 KB
                    Dear Mark, 

                    Geniek was born in 1917, making him 18 in 1935.  He was a tank driver in the 4th Armoured (Skorpion) and listed "driver" as his experience when joining the 2nd Corps.  So I am thinking he was also a driver in some mechanized unit in the home army.  However, his documents list his active service as beginning on 11 11 1938.

                    Here is an early picture--let me know if you cannot see it (I cc'd your yahoo address).  Thanks!  Rich

                  • Mark and Oyun
                    Dear Rich, Got the photo but not much insignia to go on.Round top not square on his hat... I know this is significant, but it s too late to look it up now.
                    Message 10 of 19 , Nov 19, 2012
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Rich,

                      Got the photo but not much insignia to go on.Round top not square on his hat... I know this is significant, but it's too late to look it up now. "Driver" would seem right. The 3rd Armoured Battalion had a lot of wheeled tranport, and not that much armoured.Chances would be a truck driver.The batalion needed drivers for its transport vehicle, its personel carrying vehicles and also it ambulances:
                      Kolumna Samochodow Ciezarowych, Kolumna Samochodow Osobowych and Kolumna Samochodow Sanitarnych
                      http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Batalion_Pancerny

                      Regards, Mark

                      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Mark,
                      >
                      > Geniek was born in 1917, making him 18 in 1935. He was a tank driver in the 4th Armoured (Skorpion) and listed "driver" as his experience when joining the 2nd Corps. So I am thinking he was also a driver in some mechanized unit in the home army. However, his documents list his active service as beginning on 11 11 1938.
                      >
                      > Here is an early picture--let me know if you cannot see it (I cc'd your yahoo address). Thanks! Rich
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Nov 19, 2012, at 8:28 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                      >
                      > > Dear Rich,
                      > >
                      > > Brilliant! Your post got me thinking. Replace "active service" with "national service" and you may have something. It would then read "A souvenir of our army national service"...czynna sluzba.
                      > > This may well mean they knew each other in Poland before the war... it would then give 2 options for 3BP... 3rd Infantry Battalion... but every regiment had a 3rd battalions so this would render it meaningless, and Poles usually talked about which regiment [Pulk] or Division [Dywizja] they were in... or it could be 3 Batalion Pancerny
                      > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Batalion_Pancerny
                      > > which was formed in Warsaw. Could the word after 3BP, although rather squiggly, be Warszawa. It would make sense, especially since 3BP rings no bells with Anders and the 2nd Corps.
                      > > It could be the 3 Infantry Brigade, but this in unlikely as they did not use the P in Piechota for brigades. They were referred to as Rifle Brigades.. 3BS: 3 Brygada Strzelcow
                      > > The 3BPanc. [3 Armoured Brigade] was formed in 1935... so if he was 18ish between 1935 to 1938 this may be the time he did his national service.
                      > >
                      > > This is my best guess. Regards, Mark.
                      > >
                      > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi, Mark, yes, I remember our exchange of emails. That was before I learned that my dad fought in the Polish army in the September campaign. From the writing on the back of the photo I get the impression that the two may have known each other before Anders and before Palestine, hence the reference to 3 B.P. Do you think that is unlikely? Rich
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Nov 18, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Dear Rich,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > OK, the mist clears... a little. It's not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939. We've talked about these pictures before:
                      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/message/49275
                      > > > > The picture dates from 1943 so could not be a "Polish" Polish unit... Syria/Palestine more like.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "3BP would normally be 3rd Armoured Brigade of Battalion but I'm fairly sure it's neither of these". I wrote that in March... but for the life of me I have no idea why I was so sure!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > This needs a little more work!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Regards, Mark
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much. Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#25
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#24
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Dear Rich and Dan,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
                      > > > > > > Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Best regards, Mark
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • R52302
                      Excellent, Mark, thank you! I will review. Rich
                      Message 11 of 19 , Nov 19, 2012
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Excellent, Mark, thank you!  I will review. Rich




                        On Nov 19, 2012, at 6:56 PM, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...> wrote:

                         

                        Dear Rich,

                        Got the photo but not much insignia to go on.Round top not square on his hat... I know this is significant, but it's too late to look it up now. "Driver" would seem right. The 3rd Armoured Battalion had a lot of wheeled tranport, and not that much armoured.Chances would be a truck driver.The batalion needed drivers for its transport vehicle, its personel carrying vehicles and also it ambulances:
                        Kolumna Samochodow Ciezarowych, Kolumna Samochodow Osobowych and Kolumna Samochodow Sanitarnych
                        http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Batalion_Pancerny

                        Regards, Mark

                        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Mark,
                        >
                        > Geniek was born in 1917, making him 18 in 1935. He was a tank driver in the 4th Armoured (Skorpion) and listed "driver" as his experience when joining the 2nd Corps. So I am thinking he was also a driver in some mechanized unit in the home army. However, his documents list his active service as beginning on 11 11 1938.
                        >
                        > Here is an early picture--let me know if you cannot see it (I cc'd your yahoo address). Thanks! Rich
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Nov 19, 2012, at 8:28 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                        >
                        > > Dear Rich,
                        > >
                        > > Brilliant! Your post got me thinking. Replace "active service" with "national service" and you may have something. It would then read "A souvenir of our army national service"...czynna sluzba.
                        > > This may well mean they knew each other in Poland before the war... it would then give 2 options for 3BP... 3rd Infantry Battalion... but every regiment had a 3rd battalions so this would render it meaningless, and Poles usually talked about which regiment [Pulk] or Division [Dywizja] they were in... or it could be 3 Batalion Pancerny
                        > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Batalion_Pancerny
                        > > which was formed in Warsaw. Could the word after 3BP, although rather squiggly, be Warszawa. It would make sense, especially since 3BP rings no bells with Anders and the 2nd Corps.
                        > > It could be the 3 Infantry Brigade, but this in unlikely as they did not use the P in Piechota for brigades. They were referred to as Rifle Brigades.. 3BS: 3 Brygada Strzelcow
                        > > The 3BPanc. [3 Armoured Brigade] was formed in 1935... so if he was 18ish between 1935 to 1938 this may be the time he did his national service.
                        > >
                        > > This is my best guess. Regards, Mark.
                        > >
                        > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi, Mark, yes, I remember our exchange of emails. That was before I learned that my dad fought in the Polish army in the September campaign. From the writing on the back of the photo I get the impression that the two may have known each other before Anders and before Palestine, hence the reference to 3 B.P. Do you think that is unlikely? Rich
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On Nov 18, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > Dear Rich,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > OK, the mist clears... a little. It's not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939. We've talked about these pictures before:
                        > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/message/49275
                        > > > > The picture dates from 1943 so could not be a "Polish" Polish unit... Syria/Palestine more like.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "3BP would normally be 3rd Armoured Brigade of Battalion but I'm fairly sure it's neither of these". I wrote that in March... but for the life of me I have no idea why I was so sure!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > This needs a little more work!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Regards, Mark
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much. Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#25
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#24
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Dear Rich and Dan,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
                        > > > > > > Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Best regards, Mark
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.