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RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription

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  • LenardaSzymczak
    Anna, you have described how my Uncle was injured; it was always a guess on my part and never confirmed. But how do you explain a back/spinal injury
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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      Anna, you have described how my Uncle was injured; it was always a guess on my part and never confirmed.   But how do you explain a back/spinal injury requiring 3 years hospitalization and surgery in a Polish Sanatorium.  Lucky it happened inside the Polish Border.   He now lives in Poland and never went back.

      Warmest regards,

      Lenarda, Australia

       

      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of annapacewicz
      Sent: Sunday, 18 November, 2012 9:49 AM
      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription

       

       

      Dear Mark, There are so many parallel stories and I am feeling terrible that my Uncle Jozef is now dead and I really don't know what happened to him in the war. If it weren't for the recent information from the International Red Cross I would know next to nothing.

      A likely scenario is that he was not home when the family were deported - he was the eldest at about 18 years of age in 1939 so he would have been able to survive. The family lived in Wolyn for generations so it is likely he could hide with relatives. He possibly joined a partisan group in the Borderlands. In 1943 the Soviets forced the partisan soldiers into the Red Army - this is how the 8th Dresden Infantry Division was largely created. But Soviet officers were put in charge and the Polish Home Army commanders demoted or exiled to Siberia.

      Apparently half the partisan soldiers deserted rather than become part of the Red Army but who knows what their fate was. The Soviets had the death penalty by shooting for deserting so our men were caught between a rock and a hard place.

      I will try CAW again. Is there a Russian archive for soldiers in the Red Army does anyone know?

      Keep me posted also
      Anna Pacewicz
      Sydney

      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Mark <turkiewiczm@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Anna!
      > Another shared conection; my Franciszek and your Jan were together on Katyn list #4. Now it looks like your Jozef and my Mieczyslaw may have been conscripted to the Red Army together around 1943-44.
      > This avenue is proving very difficult to follow for me.
      > Recently I posted conscription papers together with a Red Cross trace letter. I received a plausible theory from Mr Ostrowski which I havent been able to get far with yet, but he revealed the document stated he was rejected from service for health reasons. Then I had an article from Halina showing  a Mieczyslaw working in the underground. I also havent gotten where confirming this yet either.
      > The possibilities at the time are numerous, documents scarce.
      > Keep me in mind if you find anything and I will do likewise.
      > Thanks
      >
      > Mark T.
      > Canada
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
      > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:01:50 PM
      > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      > Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944. Now that I know that Unit 2824 was part of the 8th Dresden Infantry Division I will try again with an archival search at CAW.
      >
      > Dan - thank you also. This weekend I am going to buy The Eagle Unbowed. Seems like it is a must-read. I have just finished reading Russia's War by Richard Overy. It paints a very whole picture of Zhukov and the terrible infantry losses sustained by the Red Army.... HOWEVER this book does not extrapolate out the ethnic Poles who were conscripted into the Red Army and their casualty rates.
      >
      > Kind regards,
      > Anna Pacewicz
      > Sydney Australia
      >
      > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Anna,
      > >
      > > Unit 2824:8th Dresden Infantry Division
      > >
      > > http://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=416&Itemid=26
      > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Drezde%C5%84ska_Dywizja_Piechoty
      > >
      > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
      > >
      > > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Dear group,
      > > >
      > > > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
      > > >
      > > > There was no information on him in CAW.
      > > >
      > > > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
      > > >
      > > > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
      > > >
      > > > Does this mean anything to anybody?
      > > >
      > > > Many thanks,
      > > >
      > > > Anna Pacewicz
      > > > Sydney Australia
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • annapacewicz
      Dear group From Richard Overy s Russia s War I quote a passage on the Soviet ORDER 227 NE SHAGU NAZAD - Not a step back! On July 28 (1942) Stalin ...
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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        Dear group From Richard Overy's "Russia's War" I quote a passage on the Soviet ORDER 227 "NE SHAGU NAZAD" - "Not a step back!"

        "On July 28 (1942) Stalin ... issued Order 227... The publication of the order came at a time of accute crisis. Stalin told the armed forces that retreat must end ... After the war it was forbidden to publish any details about Order Number 227, though it had been distributed to all fighting units. Not until 1998 was its existence revealed to the Soviet public. The order did not fit with the post-war image of Soviet heroism and self-sacrifice, for it not only called for a fight to the death, but promised the severest punishments for those who flinched. Anyone caught within the net of the order, the "panickers" and "cowards", were liable to summary execution or service in "shtrafbaty", penal battalions. There were penal units for senior officers who shirked their duty and separate units for junior officers and privates... Stalin also authorized so-called "blocking units" from the regular Red Army troops , whose task was to prevent panic and desertion and keep soldiers fighting... On October 29... the NKVD troops continued to track down anyone accused of slacking or cowardice. Guilt did not need to be clear. The practices of the pre-war terror were reimposed to keep Soviet soldiers fighting. The slightest infringement could be interpreted as sabotage; desertion was punishable by a death sentence, meted out by hundreds of summary court-martials. Over the course of the war 442,000 were forced to serve in penal battalions; a further 436,000 were sentenced to periods of imprisonment. How many died at the hands of their own side, either shot, or lost in the suicidal missions assigned to penal battalions, may never be known with any certainty. Latest Russian estimates put the figure as high as 158,000 sentenced to be shot during the war. The penal battalions were given the most dangerous work. They were sent ahead through minefields or on air attacks into the teeth of German defences. They could be reinstated only if they were wounded. "Atoned with his own blood", was added to their reports".

        By the way, the author does not make a distinction between Polish citizens from the USSR or the Borderlands conscripted into the Red Army. Therefore all the above figures would include Poles in the Red Army.

        Anna Pacewicz
        Sydney Australia

        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Dan Ford <cub06h@...> wrote:
        >
        > It's a wonderful story, Sophia, and it is probably more or less true.
        > One didn't have to shoot down a Russian plane to be accused of
        > sabotage--damaging a rifle was enough for that! And yes, sending an
        > entire battalion into the Gulag was entirely possible. After all, much
        > of the Soviet war effort was provided by Gulag labor, and the death rate
        > in the Gulag was almost as bad as on the front line, so they always had
        > a need for recruits.
        >
        > And even if the story isn't entirely true, it was NECESSARY, if you
        > understand me. Telling wild tales is one of the ways that soldiers (and
        > I suppose prisoners) get through life. Of all the books I have read
        > about Iraq and Afghanistan, only a very few ring true. Sebastian
        > Junger's WAR is one of them, because he understands that soldiers are
        > always laughing. It's absolutely necessary. - Dan Ford US
        >
        > On 11/17/2012 12:07 AM, alphadea wrote:
        > >
        > > I have never heard or read anything to corroborate this story.
        >
      • Mark
        I dont know of such archives but I have a few pending requests out there in russia, and will let you know. I had a recent negative response from IPN, very
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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          I dont know of such archives but I have a few pending requests out there in russia, and will let you know.
          I had a recent negative response from IPN, very disappointed with them.
          I am leaning to the same path you are taking with underground units but where is the paper trail for those guys? Ive struck out alot of places already.
           
          Mark T.
          Canada
          From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 5:49:03 PM
          Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
           
          Dear Mark, There are so many parallel stories and I am feeling terrible that my Uncle Jozef is now dead and I really don't know what happened to him in the war. If it weren't for the recent information from the International Red Cross I would know next to nothing.

          A likely scenario is that he was not home when the family were deported - he was the eldest at about 18 years of age in 1939 so he would have been able to survive. The family lived in Wolyn for generations so it is likely he could hide with relatives. He possibly joined a partisan group in the Borderlands. In 1943 the Soviets forced the partisan soldiers into the Red Army - this is how the 8th Dresden Infantry Division was largely created. But Soviet officers were put in charge and the Polish Home Army commanders demoted or exiled to Siberia.

          Apparently half the partisan soldiers deserted rather than become part of the Red Army but who knows what their fate was. The Soviets had the death penalty by shooting for deserting so our men were caught between a rock and a hard place.

          I will try CAW again. Is there a Russian archive for soldiers in the Red Army does anyone know?

          Keep me posted also
          Anna Pacewicz
          Sydney

          --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, Mark <turkiewiczm@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Anna!
          > Another shared conection; my Franciszek and your Jan were together on Katyn list #4. Now it looks like your Jozef and my Mieczyslaw may have been conscripted to the Red Army together around 1943-44.
          > This avenue is proving very difficult to follow for me.
          > Recently I posted conscription papers together with a Red Cross trace letter. I received a plausible theory from Mr Ostrowski which I havent been able to get far with yet, but he revealed the document stated he was rejected from service for health reasons. Then I had an article from Halina showing  a Mieczyslaw working in the underground. I also havent gotten where confirming this yet either.
          > The possibilities at the time are numerous, documents scarce.
          > Keep me in mind if you find anything and I will do likewise.
          > Thanks
          >
          > Mark T.
          > Canada
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
          > To: mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:01:50 PM
          > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          > Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944. Now that I know that Unit 2824 was part of the 8th Dresden Infantry Division I will try again with an archival search at CAW.
          >
          > Dan - thank you also. This weekend I am going to buy The Eagle Unbowed. Seems like it is a must-read. I have just finished reading Russia's War by Richard Overy. It paints a very whole picture of Zhukov and the terrible infantry losses sustained by the Red Army.... HOWEVER this book does not extrapolate out the ethnic Poles who were conscripted into the Red Army and their casualty rates.
          >
          > Kind regards,
          > Anna Pacewicz
          > Sydney Australia
          >
          > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Anna,
          > >
          > > Unit 2824:8th Dresden Infantry Division
          > >
          > > http://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=416&Itemid=26
          > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Drezde%C5%84ska_Dywizja_Piechoty
          > >
          > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
          > >
          > > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dear group,
          > > >
          > > > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
          > > >
          > > > There was no information on him in CAW.
          > > >
          > > > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
          > > >
          > > > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
          > > >
          > > > Does this mean anything to anybody?
          > > >
          > > > Many thanks,
          > > >
          > > > Anna Pacewicz
          > > > Sydney Australia
          > > >
          > >
          >

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