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RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Information regarding Red Army conscription

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  • LenardaSzymczak
    Dan, my Uncle was part of this being born 1921, almost missed out. . The call-ups were supposed to affect all men born between 1890 and 1921. All I know is
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 16, 2012
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      Dan, my Uncle was part of this being born 1921, almost missed out.  . The call-ups were supposed to affect all men born between 1890 and 1921.    All I know is that he went from Partisan, Red Army to Polish Army and was wounded on Polish soil and stayed in Poland.  He is 91 years old.

       

      Regards, Lenarda, Australia



       

      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Ford
      Sent: Friday, 16 November, 2012 10:32 PM
      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Information regarding Red Army conscription

       

       

      Halik Kochanski says that 210,000 Polish men were conscripted into the
      Red Army during the year and a half of Soviet occupation of eastern
      Poland. The call-ups were supposed to affect all men born between 1890
      and 1921. They were promised that they would serve in Polish units under
      Poland command. "No such independent Polish units were ever created."
      (p. 124) I suspect that their casualty rate was very high. That was true
      of the Red Army in general--Zhukov's operational art was based largely
      on massive tank assaults and the spilling of stupendous quantities of blood.

      This was entirely apart from the so-called "Berling's Army" created
      later from the Poles in the USSR who didn't get out with Anders in 1942.
      These were indeed Polish units, though mostly with Soviet officers, and
      they were augmented by new recruits and conscripts when the Red Army
      "liberated" Poland in 1944. I don't think Kochanski gives a figure, but
      by the time of the assault on Berlin in April 1945, there must have been
      many more Poles fighting in the Red Army than were serving under British
      command in the west--counting the survivors of the 1939-1941 recruits,
      there must have been 400,000, 500,00? These quasi-Polish units would
      have formed the basis of the postwar Polish army.

      Kochanski's book is valuable on many counts, but especially because she
      pays attention to the Polish contribution to the Red Army. I hadn't read
      much about that aspect before I acquired The Eagle Unbowed.

      Thanks for the information about your Dad. Strange things happen in war.
      I know a Jewish family that originated in Warsaw. The mother with two
      boys not only got to Lwow in September 1939 but was smart enough and
      resourceful enough to keep on going. She crossed the entire Soviet Union
      to Vladivostok and from there got on a boat to America. The younger boy
      is still living in New York state today. Similarly, your Dad might
      simply have walked away from his Red Army unit and slipped into an
      Anders Army encampment. Recall that there were literally tens of
      millions of people moving about Russia in 1942, millions of refugees
      fleeing east, millions of soldiers moving west. Two films I saw last
      year express this very well, The Way Back, about Gulag escapees reaching
      the west by way of Tibet, and As Far As My Feet Will Carry Me (I think
      that's the title) about a German soldier in the Gulag after the war, who
      similarly escapes and gets home by way of Iran, mostly on foot. Such
      things did happen. - Dan Ford US

      On 11/16/2012 4:33 AM, Barbara Dunleavy wrote:
      > Dear Anna,
      >
      > I, too, have been asking questions about Red Army Conscription but I
      > still don't understand. What I do know is that in Wolyn in about 1940
      > (not sure about the year) notices were sent to young men in the area,
      > of a certain age, telling them to report to their railway station on a
      > certain date and telling them they were being conscripted into the Red
      > Army. My Dad was one of those men, he was 21 at the time. His
      > brother, who was 6 years older, did not receive this notification and
      > so didn't have to go.
      >
      > I don't know why some men had to go and others didn't I don't know if
      > it was simply down to age or what that was about. I also don't know
      > whether it made a difference if you lived on one of the colonies or
      > whether your family had lived in the area for generations. My family
      > had lived there for generations. I don't know where to find out more
      > about my Dad's conscription. I got his records from the MOD in
      > England, but there is nothing there to tell me anything. My Dad ended
      > up in Siberia and then was 'amnestied' and joined Ander's Army and
      > then ended up in England.
      >
      > I wish I could be of help to you Anna, but I am in the dark about all
      > this too. Most of the members of the group seem to belong to families
      > who were deported to Siberia. I havn't come across anyone whose
      > father was conscripted as was mine, other than Jenny in Canada. I,
      > too, would welcome any thoughts on this whole area of information if
      > anyone knows anything. Perhaps, someone could point us in the right
      > direction to be able to find out more about this topic.
      >
      > I would love to know why my Dad ended up in Siberia from the Red Army?
      > I can't believe, with hindsight, that I never asked him, but that was
      > normal at the time - not asking him many questions, I mean. It is
      > only since his death, that I have felt able to start my research.
      >
      > I wish you best of luck in your research Anna. Anyone reading this in
      > the group, please, if you can, can you give us both any pointers or help?
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > Warmest wishes to you Anna.
      >
      > Barbara Szczepanska Dunleavy
      > Nottingham, England.
      >
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > *From:* annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
      > *To:* Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      > *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2012, 6:41
      > *Subject:* [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Information regarding Red Army
      > conscription
      >
      > Dear group,
      >
      > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription
      > for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow
      > avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with
      > the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All
      > I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point
      > and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
      >
      > There was no information on him in CAW.
      >
      > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross,
      > International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to
      > find the rest of the family. This information states that:
      >
      > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok
      > in Military Unit 2824....
      >
      > Does this mean anything to anybody?
      >
      > Many thanks,
      >
      > Anna Pacewicz
      > Sydney Australia
      >
      >
      >
      >

    • annapacewicz
      Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 16, 2012
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        Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944. Now that I know that Unit 2824 was part of the 8th Dresden Infantry Division I will try again with an archival search at CAW.

        Dan - thank you also. This weekend I am going to buy The Eagle Unbowed. Seems like it is a must-read. I have just finished reading Russia's War by Richard Overy. It paints a very whole picture of Zhukov and the terrible infantry losses sustained by the Red Army.... HOWEVER this book does not extrapolate out the ethnic Poles who were conscripted into the Red Army and their casualty rates.

        Kind regards,
        Anna Pacewicz
        Sydney Australia

        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Anna,
        >
        > Unit 2824:8th Dresden Infantry Division
        >
        > http://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=416&Itemid=26
        > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Drezde%C5%84ska_Dywizja_Piechoty
        >
        > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
        >
        > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear group,
        > >
        > > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
        > >
        > > There was no information on him in CAW.
        > >
        > > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
        > >
        > > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
        > >
        > > Does this mean anything to anybody?
        > >
        > > Many thanks,
        > >
        > > Anna Pacewicz
        > > Sydney Australia
        > >
        >
      • alphadea
        Hi Anna and Barbara, My father told a story of being drafted into the Red Army. This was in the Ternopil region. He said 2 Russian soldiers came to his
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 16, 2012
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          Hi Anna and Barbara,

          My father told a story of being "drafted" into the Red Army. This was in the Ternopil region. He said 2 Russian soldiers came to his house, pointed their guns at him and said, "Tovarish, you're in the army now." My father was born in 1918. His brother, who was 5 years younger, was not taken but later ended up in the German Army.

          My father told me that he was sent with his battalion to defend a city against a German air attack. The story was that overnight his battalion shot down more Russian planes than German planes, and the Russians accused them of sabotage, because they were all Polish. That's when they were sent to Siberia.

          As a child I remember asking him, "Well - did they shoot down the Russian planes on purpose?" and he replied, "It was night time; it was dark. No one can see what they're shooting at in the dark! Besides, I was not shooting; I was the one passing the ammunition to the gunner. But it didn't matter - the whole battalion was sent to Siberia."

          I have never heard or read anything to corroborate this story. If anyone can relate to it in any way, I would be very interested in finding out exactly what happened, when and where. I have always wondered.

          Warm Regards,
          Sophia Podrozny
          Guelph, Ontario, Canada


          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Dunleavy <barbaraszczepanski@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Anna,
          >
          > I, too, have been asking questions about Red Army Conscription but I still don't understand.  What I do know is that in Wolyn in about 1940 (not sure about the year) notices were sent to young men in the area, of a certain age, telling them to report to their railway station on a certain date and telling them they were being conscripted into the Red Army.  My Dad was one of those men, he was 21 at the time.  His brother, who was 6 years older, did not receive this notification and so didn't have to go. 
          >
          > I don't know why some men had to go and others didn't  I don't know if it was simply down to age or what that was about.  I also don't know whether it made a difference if you lived on one of the colonies or whether your family had lived in the area for generations.  My family had lived there for generations.  I don't know where to find out more about my Dad's conscription.  I got his records from the MOD in England, but there is nothing there to tell me anything.  My Dad ended up in Siberia and then was 'amnestied' and joined Ander's Army and then ended up in England.  
          >
          > I wish I could be of help to you Anna, but I am in the dark about all this too.  Most of the members of the group seem to belong to families who were deported to Siberia.  I havn't come across anyone whose father was conscripted as was mine, other than Jenny in Canada.   I, too, would welcome any thoughts on this whole area of information if anyone knows anything.  Perhaps, someone could point us in the right direction to be able to find out more about this topic.  
          >
          > I would love to know why my Dad ended up in Siberia from the Red Army?  I can't believe, with hindsight, that I never asked him, but that was normal at the time - not asking him many questions, I mean.  It is only since his death, that I have felt able to start my research.
          >
          > I wish you best of luck in your research Anna.  Anyone reading this in the group, please, if you can, can you give us both any pointers or help?
          >
          > Thank you.
          >
          > Warmest wishes to you Anna.
          >
          > Barbara Szczepanska Dunleavy
          > Nottingham, England.
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
          > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, 16 November 2012, 6:41
          > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Information regarding Red Army conscription
          >
          >
          >  
          > Dear group,
          >
          > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
          >
          > There was no information on him in CAW.
          >
          > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
          >
          > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
          >
          > Does this mean anything to anybody?
          >
          > Many thanks,
          >
          > Anna Pacewicz
          > Sydney Australia
          >
        • Dan Ford
          It s a wonderful story, Sophia, and it is probably more or less true. One didn t have to shoot down a Russian plane to be accused of sabotage--damaging a rifle
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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            It's a wonderful story, Sophia, and it is probably more or less true.
            One didn't have to shoot down a Russian plane to be accused of
            sabotage--damaging a rifle was enough for that! And yes, sending an
            entire battalion into the Gulag was entirely possible. After all, much
            of the Soviet war effort was provided by Gulag labor, and the death rate
            in the Gulag was almost as bad as on the front line, so they always had
            a need for recruits.

            And even if the story isn't entirely true, it was NECESSARY, if you
            understand me. Telling wild tales is one of the ways that soldiers (and
            I suppose prisoners) get through life. Of all the books I have read
            about Iraq and Afghanistan, only a very few ring true. Sebastian
            Junger's WAR is one of them, because he understands that soldiers are
            always laughing. It's absolutely necessary. - Dan Ford US

            On 11/17/2012 12:07 AM, alphadea wrote:
            >
            > I have never heard or read anything to corroborate this story.
          • Dan Ford
            Another recent book that s worth reading is Isaac s Army, by Matthew Brzezinski. He s a Canadian of Polish parentage (and nephew I think of Jimmy Carter s
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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              Another recent book that's worth reading is Isaac's Army, by Matthew
              Brzezinski. He's a Canadian of Polish parentage (and nephew I think of
              Jimmy Carter's Secretary of State) who worked for the Associated Press
              in Warsaw and whose wife is Jewish, all of which gave him great insight
              into the Warsaw Ghetto resistance. A lot of these men and women wound up
              in the forest with the partisans, where it wasn't a very simple war.
              There were Jewish bands, AK bands, right-wing Polish bands, communist
              bands, and just plain bandits who stole goods and women from the other
              groups. When the Red Army came up, one either joined up or got shot.

              Of course this was not in the East, but he tells the story wonderfully
              well from the point of view of a few survivors. We tend to remember the
              Warsaw Jews as having only the one survivor--The Pianist who played
              Chopin over the radio when Warsaw surrendered, and again when the War
              ended--but actually there were thousands.

              It's quite a book. Brzezinsk buys into the legend of inter-war Poland as
              a military dictatorship, but that was the only sour note that I noticed.
              - Dan Ford US

              On 11/16/2012 8:01 PM, annapacewicz wrote:
              > It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting
              > unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944.
            • Mark
              Hi Anna! Another shared conection; my Franciszek and your Jan were together on Katyn list #4. Now it looks like your Jozef and my Mieczyslaw may have been
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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                Hi Anna!
                Another shared conection; my Franciszek and your Jan were together on Katyn list #4. Now it looks like your Jozef and my Mieczyslaw may have been conscripted to the Red Army together around 1943-44.
                This avenue is proving very difficult to follow for me.
                Recently I posted conscription papers together with a Red Cross trace letter. I received a plausible theory from Mr Ostrowski which I havent been able to get far with yet, but he revealed the document stated he was rejected from service for health reasons. Then I had an article from Halina showing  a Mieczyslaw working in the underground. I also havent gotten where confirming this yet either.
                The possibilities at the time are numerous, documents scarce.
                Keep me in mind if you find anything and I will do likewise.
                Thanks
                 
                Mark T.
                Canada
                From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
                To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:01:50 PM
                Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
                 
                Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944. Now that I know that Unit 2824 was part of the 8th Dresden Infantry Division I will try again with an archival search at CAW.

                Dan - thank you also. This weekend I am going to buy The Eagle Unbowed. Seems like it is a must-read. I have just finished reading Russia's War by Richard Overy. It paints a very whole picture of Zhukov and the terrible infantry losses sustained by the Red Army.... HOWEVER this book does not extrapolate out the ethnic Poles who were conscripted into the Red Army and their casualty rates.

                Kind regards,
                Anna Pacewicz
                Sydney Australia

                --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Anna,
                >
                > Unit 2824:8th Dresden Infantry Division
                >
                > http://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=416&Itemid=26
                > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Drezde%C5%84ska_Dywizja_Piechoty
                >
                > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
                >
                > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear group,
                > >
                > > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
                > >
                > > There was no information on him in CAW.
                > >
                > > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
                > >
                > > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
                > >
                > > Does this mean anything to anybody?
                > >
                > > Many thanks,
                > >
                > > Anna Pacewicz
                > > Sydney Australia
                > >
                >

              • annapacewicz
                Dear Mark, There are so many parallel stories and I am feeling terrible that my Uncle Jozef is now dead and I really don t know what happened to him in the
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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                  Dear Mark, There are so many parallel stories and I am feeling terrible that my Uncle Jozef is now dead and I really don't know what happened to him in the war. If it weren't for the recent information from the International Red Cross I would know next to nothing.

                  A likely scenario is that he was not home when the family were deported - he was the eldest at about 18 years of age in 1939 so he would have been able to survive. The family lived in Wolyn for generations so it is likely he could hide with relatives. He possibly joined a partisan group in the Borderlands. In 1943 the Soviets forced the partisan soldiers into the Red Army - this is how the 8th Dresden Infantry Division was largely created. But Soviet officers were put in charge and the Polish Home Army commanders demoted or exiled to Siberia.

                  Apparently half the partisan soldiers deserted rather than become part of the Red Army but who knows what their fate was. The Soviets had the death penalty by shooting for deserting so our men were caught between a rock and a hard place.

                  I will try CAW again. Is there a Russian archive for soldiers in the Red Army does anyone know?

                  Keep me posted also
                  Anna Pacewicz
                  Sydney

                  --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Mark <turkiewiczm@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Anna!
                  > Another shared conection; my Franciszek and your Jan were together on Katyn list #4. Now it looks like your Jozef and my Mieczyslaw may have been conscripted to the Red Army together around 1943-44.
                  > This avenue is proving very difficult to follow for me.
                  > Recently I posted conscription papers together with a Red Cross trace letter. I received a plausible theory from Mr Ostrowski which I havent been able to get far with yet, but he revealed the document stated he was rejected from service for health reasons. Then I had an article from Halina showing  a Mieczyslaw working in the underground. I also havent gotten where confirming this yet either.
                  > The possibilities at the time are numerous, documents scarce.
                  > Keep me in mind if you find anything and I will do likewise.
                  > Thanks
                  >
                  > Mark T.
                  > Canada
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
                  > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:01:50 PM
                  > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944. Now that I know that Unit 2824 was part of the 8th Dresden Infantry Division I will try again with an archival search at CAW.
                  >
                  > Dan - thank you also. This weekend I am going to buy The Eagle Unbowed. Seems like it is a must-read. I have just finished reading Russia's War by Richard Overy. It paints a very whole picture of Zhukov and the terrible infantry losses sustained by the Red Army.... HOWEVER this book does not extrapolate out the ethnic Poles who were conscripted into the Red Army and their casualty rates.
                  >
                  > Kind regards,
                  > Anna Pacewicz
                  > Sydney Australia
                  >
                  > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear Anna,
                  > >
                  > > Unit 2824:8th Dresden Infantry Division
                  > >
                  > > http://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=416&Itemid=26
                  > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Drezde%C5%84ska_Dywizja_Piechoty
                  > >
                  > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
                  > >
                  > > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Dear group,
                  > > >
                  > > > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
                  > > >
                  > > > There was no information on him in CAW.
                  > > >
                  > > > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
                  > > >
                  > > > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
                  > > >
                  > > > Does this mean anything to anybody?
                  > > >
                  > > > Many thanks,
                  > > >
                  > > > Anna Pacewicz
                  > > > Sydney Australia
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • LenardaSzymczak
                  Anna, you have described how my Uncle was injured; it was always a guess on my part and never confirmed. But how do you explain a back/spinal injury
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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                    Anna, you have described how my Uncle was injured; it was always a guess on my part and never confirmed.   But how do you explain a back/spinal injury requiring 3 years hospitalization and surgery in a Polish Sanatorium.  Lucky it happened inside the Polish Border.   He now lives in Poland and never went back.

                    Warmest regards,

                    Lenarda, Australia

                     

                    From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of annapacewicz
                    Sent: Sunday, 18 November, 2012 9:49 AM
                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription

                     

                     

                    Dear Mark, There are so many parallel stories and I am feeling terrible that my Uncle Jozef is now dead and I really don't know what happened to him in the war. If it weren't for the recent information from the International Red Cross I would know next to nothing.

                    A likely scenario is that he was not home when the family were deported - he was the eldest at about 18 years of age in 1939 so he would have been able to survive. The family lived in Wolyn for generations so it is likely he could hide with relatives. He possibly joined a partisan group in the Borderlands. In 1943 the Soviets forced the partisan soldiers into the Red Army - this is how the 8th Dresden Infantry Division was largely created. But Soviet officers were put in charge and the Polish Home Army commanders demoted or exiled to Siberia.

                    Apparently half the partisan soldiers deserted rather than become part of the Red Army but who knows what their fate was. The Soviets had the death penalty by shooting for deserting so our men were caught between a rock and a hard place.

                    I will try CAW again. Is there a Russian archive for soldiers in the Red Army does anyone know?

                    Keep me posted also
                    Anna Pacewicz
                    Sydney

                    --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Mark <turkiewiczm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Anna!
                    > Another shared conection; my Franciszek and your Jan were together on Katyn list #4. Now it looks like your Jozef and my Mieczyslaw may have been conscripted to the Red Army together around 1943-44.
                    > This avenue is proving very difficult to follow for me.
                    > Recently I posted conscription papers together with a Red Cross trace letter. I received a plausible theory from Mr Ostrowski which I havent been able to get far with yet, but he revealed the document stated he was rejected from service for health reasons. Then I had an article from Halina showing  a Mieczyslaw working in the underground. I also havent gotten where confirming this yet either.
                    > The possibilities at the time are numerous, documents scarce.
                    > Keep me in mind if you find anything and I will do likewise.
                    > Thanks
                    >
                    > Mark T.
                    > Canada
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
                    > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:01:50 PM
                    > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    > Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944. Now that I know that Unit 2824 was part of the 8th Dresden Infantry Division I will try again with an archival search at CAW.
                    >
                    > Dan - thank you also. This weekend I am going to buy The Eagle Unbowed. Seems like it is a must-read. I have just finished reading Russia's War by Richard Overy. It paints a very whole picture of Zhukov and the terrible infantry losses sustained by the Red Army.... HOWEVER this book does not extrapolate out the ethnic Poles who were conscripted into the Red Army and their casualty rates.
                    >
                    > Kind regards,
                    > Anna Pacewicz
                    > Sydney Australia
                    >
                    > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Anna,
                    > >
                    > > Unit 2824:8th Dresden Infantry Division
                    > >
                    > > http://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=416&Itemid=26
                    > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Drezde%C5%84ska_Dywizja_Piechoty
                    > >
                    > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
                    > >
                    > > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Dear group,
                    > > >
                    > > > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
                    > > >
                    > > > There was no information on him in CAW.
                    > > >
                    > > > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
                    > > >
                    > > > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
                    > > >
                    > > > Does this mean anything to anybody?
                    > > >
                    > > > Many thanks,
                    > > >
                    > > > Anna Pacewicz
                    > > > Sydney Australia
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • annapacewicz
                    Dear group From Richard Overy s Russia s War I quote a passage on the Soviet ORDER 227 NE SHAGU NAZAD - Not a step back! On July 28 (1942) Stalin ...
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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                      Dear group From Richard Overy's "Russia's War" I quote a passage on the Soviet ORDER 227 "NE SHAGU NAZAD" - "Not a step back!"

                      "On July 28 (1942) Stalin ... issued Order 227... The publication of the order came at a time of accute crisis. Stalin told the armed forces that retreat must end ... After the war it was forbidden to publish any details about Order Number 227, though it had been distributed to all fighting units. Not until 1998 was its existence revealed to the Soviet public. The order did not fit with the post-war image of Soviet heroism and self-sacrifice, for it not only called for a fight to the death, but promised the severest punishments for those who flinched. Anyone caught within the net of the order, the "panickers" and "cowards", were liable to summary execution or service in "shtrafbaty", penal battalions. There were penal units for senior officers who shirked their duty and separate units for junior officers and privates... Stalin also authorized so-called "blocking units" from the regular Red Army troops , whose task was to prevent panic and desertion and keep soldiers fighting... On October 29... the NKVD troops continued to track down anyone accused of slacking or cowardice. Guilt did not need to be clear. The practices of the pre-war terror were reimposed to keep Soviet soldiers fighting. The slightest infringement could be interpreted as sabotage; desertion was punishable by a death sentence, meted out by hundreds of summary court-martials. Over the course of the war 442,000 were forced to serve in penal battalions; a further 436,000 were sentenced to periods of imprisonment. How many died at the hands of their own side, either shot, or lost in the suicidal missions assigned to penal battalions, may never be known with any certainty. Latest Russian estimates put the figure as high as 158,000 sentenced to be shot during the war. The penal battalions were given the most dangerous work. They were sent ahead through minefields or on air attacks into the teeth of German defences. They could be reinstated only if they were wounded. "Atoned with his own blood", was added to their reports".

                      By the way, the author does not make a distinction between Polish citizens from the USSR or the Borderlands conscripted into the Red Army. Therefore all the above figures would include Poles in the Red Army.

                      Anna Pacewicz
                      Sydney Australia

                      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Dan Ford <cub06h@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It's a wonderful story, Sophia, and it is probably more or less true.
                      > One didn't have to shoot down a Russian plane to be accused of
                      > sabotage--damaging a rifle was enough for that! And yes, sending an
                      > entire battalion into the Gulag was entirely possible. After all, much
                      > of the Soviet war effort was provided by Gulag labor, and the death rate
                      > in the Gulag was almost as bad as on the front line, so they always had
                      > a need for recruits.
                      >
                      > And even if the story isn't entirely true, it was NECESSARY, if you
                      > understand me. Telling wild tales is one of the ways that soldiers (and
                      > I suppose prisoners) get through life. Of all the books I have read
                      > about Iraq and Afghanistan, only a very few ring true. Sebastian
                      > Junger's WAR is one of them, because he understands that soldiers are
                      > always laughing. It's absolutely necessary. - Dan Ford US
                      >
                      > On 11/17/2012 12:07 AM, alphadea wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have never heard or read anything to corroborate this story.
                      >
                    • Mark
                      I dont know of such archives but I have a few pending requests out there in russia, and will let you know. I had a recent negative response from IPN, very
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 17, 2012
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                        I dont know of such archives but I have a few pending requests out there in russia, and will let you know.
                        I had a recent negative response from IPN, very disappointed with them.
                        I am leaning to the same path you are taking with underground units but where is the paper trail for those guys? Ive struck out alot of places already.
                         
                        Mark T.
                        Canada
                        From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
                        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 5:49:03 PM
                        Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
                         
                        Dear Mark, There are so many parallel stories and I am feeling terrible that my Uncle Jozef is now dead and I really don't know what happened to him in the war. If it weren't for the recent information from the International Red Cross I would know next to nothing.

                        A likely scenario is that he was not home when the family were deported - he was the eldest at about 18 years of age in 1939 so he would have been able to survive. The family lived in Wolyn for generations so it is likely he could hide with relatives. He possibly joined a partisan group in the Borderlands. In 1943 the Soviets forced the partisan soldiers into the Red Army - this is how the 8th Dresden Infantry Division was largely created. But Soviet officers were put in charge and the Polish Home Army commanders demoted or exiled to Siberia.

                        Apparently half the partisan soldiers deserted rather than become part of the Red Army but who knows what their fate was. The Soviets had the death penalty by shooting for deserting so our men were caught between a rock and a hard place.

                        I will try CAW again. Is there a Russian archive for soldiers in the Red Army does anyone know?

                        Keep me posted also
                        Anna Pacewicz
                        Sydney

                        --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, Mark <turkiewiczm@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Anna!
                        > Another shared conection; my Franciszek and your Jan were together on Katyn list #4. Now it looks like your Jozef and my Mieczyslaw may have been conscripted to the Red Army together around 1943-44.
                        > This avenue is proving very difficult to follow for me.
                        > Recently I posted conscription papers together with a Red Cross trace letter. I received a plausible theory from Mr Ostrowski which I havent been able to get far with yet, but he revealed the document stated he was rejected from service for health reasons. Then I had an article from Halina showing  a Mieczyslaw working in the underground. I also havent gotten where confirming this yet either.
                        > The possibilities at the time are numerous, documents scarce.
                        > Keep me in mind if you find anything and I will do likewise.
                        > Thanks
                        >
                        > Mark T.
                        > Canada
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
                        > To: mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:01:50 PM
                        > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Information regarding Red Army conscription
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Mark, thank you so much. Very interesting. It seems that the 8th Dresden Infantry Division started as a fighting unit of partisans in Eastern Poland until it was "Sovietized" in 1944. Now that I know that Unit 2824 was part of the 8th Dresden Infantry Division I will try again with an archival search at CAW.
                        >
                        > Dan - thank you also. This weekend I am going to buy The Eagle Unbowed. Seems like it is a must-read. I have just finished reading Russia's War by Richard Overy. It paints a very whole picture of Zhukov and the terrible infantry losses sustained by the Red Army.... HOWEVER this book does not extrapolate out the ethnic Poles who were conscripted into the Red Army and their casualty rates.
                        >
                        > Kind regards,
                        > Anna Pacewicz
                        > Sydney Australia
                        >
                        > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear Anna,
                        > >
                        > > Unit 2824:8th Dresden Infantry Division
                        > >
                        > > http://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=416&Itemid=26
                        > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Drezde%C5%84ska_Dywizja_Piechoty
                        > >
                        > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
                        > >
                        > > --- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Dear group,
                        > > >
                        > > > I am seeking any information or advice regarding Red Army Conscription for a puzzle in my family history. My uncle Jozef Pacewicz somehow avoided deportation to Kazakhstan from Rowne on 13th April 1940 with the rest of the family. He would have been about 18 years of age. All I know is that "he was conscripted into the Red Army" at some point and after the War remained in Poland, in Krosno.
                        > > >
                        > > > There was no information on him in CAW.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, I received some information from the Polish Red Cross, International Tracing Service, as Jozef spent from 1946-1956 trying to find the rest of the family. This information states that:
                        > > >
                        > > > During 1946-1956 Jozef was a Polish Army sergeant stationed in Sanok in Military Unit 2824....
                        > > >
                        > > > Does this mean anything to anybody?
                        > > >
                        > > > Many thanks,
                        > > >
                        > > > Anna Pacewicz
                        > > > Sydney Australia
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >

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