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Re: [Kresy-Siberia] old documents from Russian times

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  • Barbara Milligan
    Dear Cynthia, The copy documents were sent to me by cousins in Poland. They travelled back to the family s old stamping ground and took photos of Parish
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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      Dear Cynthia,

      The copy documents were sent to me by  cousins in Poland. They travelled back to the family's old stamping ground and took photos of Parish books, but they also have some in their possession. Your problem Cynthia is that your Michael came from Wilno the same as my family. It is very difficult to get records there as so much was destroyed. If any documents do exist from 1939 onwards they tend to be in Lithuanian if not Russian.

      I am sorry I cannot help you, but I do understand and sympathise.

      Very best wishes,

                                    Basia
      On 2 Feb 2012, at 17:28, Cynthia Pukiello wrote:

       

      Hello Basia,
      Hope you won't mind if I jump in & ask you where you managed to get  hold of the documents you have, as it would possibly help me if I could get hold of these.
      Maybe your family had them & passed them to you soI will understand ok?
      Hope you are  ok.
      Cynthia.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:57 PM
      Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] old documents from Russian times

       

      I have a question for historians who know about birth and marriage certificates under Russian occupation of Poland.

      I have a photocopy of my great-grandparents marriage certificate. In it, both my great-grandparents have a christian name which was never subsequently used in any deed or document, except perhaps occasionally as a second name. The same applies to my great-great-grandmother's name where what was possibly a second name is given as her first christian name.

      My question is was this how names were written under Russian occupation - i.e. second name first?

      Many thanks,

      Basia (UK)





      Internal Virus Database is out of date.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3568 - Release Date: 04/12/11 06:34:00


    • Barbara Milligan
      Dear Antoni, You are kind to respond. Thank you. What I do not understand is that the names are not patronymics. So my great-grandfather s baptism and marriage
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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        Dear Antoni, 

        You are kind to respond. Thank you. What I do not understand is that the names are not patronymics. So my great-grandfather's baptism and marriage certificates give his name as Edward Szczepan but he was never called Edward and his death certificate gives only Szczepan plus another christian name which is nowhere on the aforementioned documents; ditto his release document from his lagier.Non of his given names were his father's. My grandmother similarly, and her mother the same. They had only female christian names.
        Perhaps it's just an idiosyncrasy I just do not know and they are long dead so I cannot ask them. 

        Best wishes,

                             Basia


        On 2 Feb 2012, at 17:40, antoni530 wrote:

         

        Basia,

        Patronymic name always came second. The documents of those times were in Russsian or in some instances in Latin with dates given both according to the Gregorian and Julian callenders.
        antoni530 in UK

        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have a question for historians who know about birth and marriage certificates under Russian occupation of Poland.
        >
        > I have a photocopy of my great-grandparents marriage certificate. In it, both my great-grandparents have a christian name which was never subsequently used in any deed or document, except perhaps occasionally as a second name. The same applies to my great-great-grandmother's name where what was possibly a second name is given as her first christian name.
        >
        > My question is was this how names were written under Russian occupation - i.e. second name first?
        >
        > Many thanks,
        >
        > Basia (UK)
        >


      • antoni530
        Basia and Cynthia, There is no question that in order to obtain or search church records one has to know which church or cerkiew someone was baptised or
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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          Basia and Cynthia,

          There is no question that in order to obtain or search church records one has to know which church or cerkiew someone was baptised or christened.
          In case of Michal Pukiello , as I understand, he was born in Makarycze near Wilejka in woj. Wilno in 1922. Any documents , if they still exist, would be at a church where Michal was baptised; presumably soon after his birth in November 1922. He was a Roman Catholic and no doubt there is a possibility that some records exist somewhere; either in Makarycze or Wilejka which was the nearest main town and it would have have had 'Kosciol parafialny', but who to contact?
          Perhaps some members might know or have had good results from Wilejka.
          antoni530 in UK



          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Cynthia,
          >
          > The copy documents were sent to me by cousins in Poland. They travelled back to the family's old stamping ground and took photos of Parish books, but they also have some in their possession. Your problem Cynthia is that your Michael came from Wilno the same as my family. It is very difficult to get records there as so much was destroyed. If any documents do exist from 1939 onwards they tend to be in Lithuanian if not Russian.
          >
          > I am sorry I cannot help you, but I do understand and sympathise.
          >
          > Very best wishes,
          >
          > Basia
          > On 2 Feb 2012, at 17:28, Cynthia Pukiello wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > Hello Basia,
          > > Hope you won't mind if I jump in & ask you where you managed to get hold of the documents you have, as it would possibly help me if I could get hold of these.
          > > Maybe your family had them & passed them to you soI will understand ok?
          > > Hope you are ok.
          > > Cynthia.
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Barbara Milligan
          > > To: kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:57 PM
          > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] old documents from Russian times
          > >
          > >
          > > I have a question for historians who know about birth and marriage certificates under Russian occupation of Poland.
          > >
          > > I have a photocopy of my great-grandparents marriage certificate. In it, both my great-grandparents have a christian name which was never subsequently used in any deed or document, except perhaps occasionally as a second name. The same applies to my great-great-grandmother's name where what was possibly a second name is given as her first christian name.
          > >
          > > My question is was this how names were written under Russian occupation - i.e. second name first?
          > >
          > > Many thanks,
          > >
          > > Basia (UK)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Internal Virus Database is out of date.
          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3568 - Release Date: 04/12/11 06:34:00
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Barbara Milligan
          Hello Antoni, I get muddled. When you - and others refer to Wilejka do you mean Nowa Wilejka? The only other Wilejka I know of is Stara Wilejka but there is
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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            Hello Antoni,

            I get muddled. When you - and others refer to Wilejka do you mean Nowa Wilejka? The only other Wilejka I know of is Stara Wilejka but there is some distance between the two. 

            If it's any help the big church in Nowa Wilejka is  (I think) Sw. Kazimiera (St. Kazimir's). My mother took her first Communion there. Her school church in Wilno was used as a museum of stuffed animals and was used to "re-educate" the school kids from religion to Darwinism by the ever helpful Soviets.

            I am constantly learning.

            Best wishes,
                                     Basia (UK)
            On 2 Feb 2012, at 18:34, antoni530 wrote:

             

            Basia and Cynthia,

            There is no question that in order to obtain or search church records one has to know which church or cerkiew someone was baptised or christened.
            In case of Michal Pukiello , as I understand, he was born in Makarycze near Wilejka in woj. Wilno in 1922. Any documents , if they still exist, would be at a church where Michal was baptised; presumably soon after his birth in November 1922. He was a Roman Catholic and no doubt there is a possibility that some records exist somewhere; either in Makarycze or Wilejka which was the nearest main town and it would have have had 'Kosciol parafialny', but who to contact?
            Perhaps some members might know or have had good results from Wilejka.
            antoni530 in UK

            --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Cynthia,
            >
            > The copy documents were sent to me by cousins in Poland. They travelled back to the family's old stamping ground and took photos of Parish books, but they also have some in their possession. Your problem Cynthia is that your Michael came from Wilno the same as my family. It is very difficult to get records there as so much was destroyed. If any documents do exist from 1939 onwards they tend to be in Lithuanian if not Russian.
            >
            > I am sorry I cannot help you, but I do understand and sympathise.
            >
            > Very best wishes,
            >
            > Basia
            > On 2 Feb 2012, at 17:28, Cynthia Pukiello wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Hello Basia,
            > > Hope you won't mind if I jump in & ask you where you managed to get hold of the documents you have, as it would possibly help me if I could get hold of these.
            > > Maybe your family had them & passed them to you soI will understand ok?
            > > Hope you are ok.
            > > Cynthia.
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Barbara Milligan
            > > To: kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:57 PM
            > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] old documents from Russian times
            > >
            > >
            > > I have a question for historians who know about birth and marriage certificates under Russian occupation of Poland.
            > >
            > > I have a photocopy of my great-grandparents marriage certificate. In it, both my great-grandparents have a christian name which was never subsequently used in any deed or document, except perhaps occasionally as a second name. The same applies to my great-great-grandmother's name where what was possibly a second name is given as her first christian name.
            > >
            > > My question is was this how names were written under Russian occupation - i.e. second name first?
            > >
            > > Many thanks,
            > >
            > > Basia (UK)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Internal Virus Database is out of date.
            > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3568 - Release Date: 04/12/11 06:34:00
            > >
            > >
            >


          • Cynthia Pukiello
            Hello Antoni & Basia, Thanks for your info; very interesting, I did ask Nik in Belarus but the family do not go to church of which I was most surprised & he
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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              Hello Antoni & Basia,
              Thanks for your info; very interesting, I  did ask Nik in Belarus but  the family do not  go to church of which I was most surprised & he will not divulge any info; I request which is understandable  as we all know their position.
              My Michael however was a big believer of which I did not know much about -we were different nationality, different religion etc; it did not stand in our way ,
              as I found out after he suddenly died & going through personal belongings.
              Basia I thank you so much for caring & thinking about me.
              Yours,
               Cynthia.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: antoni530
              Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:34 PM
              Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: old documents from Russian times

               

              Basia and Cynthia,

              There is no question that in order to obtain or search church records one has to know which church or cerkiew someone was baptised or christened.
              In case of Michal Pukiello , as I understand, he was born in Makarycze near Wilejka in woj. Wilno in 1922. Any documents , if they still exist, would be at a church where Michal was baptised; presumably soon after his birth in November 1922. He was a Roman Catholic and no doubt there is a possibility that some records exist somewhere; either in Makarycze or Wilejka which was the nearest main town and it would have have had 'Kosciol parafialny', but who to contact?
              Perhaps some members might know or have had good results from Wilejka.
              antoni530 in UK

              --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Cynthia,
              >
              > The copy documents were sent to me by cousins in Poland. They travelled back to the family's old stamping ground and took photos of Parish books, but they also have some in their possession. Your problem Cynthia is that your Michael came from Wilno the same as my family. It is very difficult to get records there as so much was destroyed. If any documents do exist from 1939 onwards they tend to be in Lithuanian if not Russian.
              >
              > I am sorry I cannot help you, but I do understand and sympathise.
              >
              > Very best wishes,
              >
              > Basia
              > On 2 Feb 2012, at 17:28, Cynthia Pukiello wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > Hello Basia,
              > > Hope you won't mind if I jump in & ask you where you managed to get hold of the documents you have, as it would possibly help me if I could get hold of these.
              > > Maybe your family had them & passed them to you soI will understand ok?
              > > Hope you are ok.
              > > Cynthia.
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Barbara Milligan
              > > To: kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:57 PM
              > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] old documents from Russian times
              > >
              > >
              > > I have a question for historians who know about birth and marriage certificates under Russian occupation of Poland.
              > >
              > > I have a photocopy of my great-grandparents marriage certificate. In it, both my great-grandparents have a christian name which was never subsequently used in any deed or document, except perhaps occasionally as a second name. The same applies to my great-great-grandmother's name where what was possibly a second name is given as her first christian name.
              > >
              > > My question is was this how names were written under Russian occupation - i.e. second name first?
              > >
              > > Many thanks,
              > >
              > > Basia (UK)
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Internal Virus Database is out of date.
              > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3568 - Release Date: 04/12/11 06:34:00
              > >
              > >
              >



              Internal Virus Database is out of date.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3568 - Release Date: 04/12/11 06:34:00
            • Eve5J@aol.com
              Basia, Are you sure your Polish cousins have the correct record for your great grandparents? Was the surname a common one? If so, they may have given you
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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                Basia,
                 
                Are you sure your Polish cousins have the correct record for your great grandparents?  Was the surname a common one?  If so, they may have given you someone else's record.  Although my ancestors were from a different partition, the names are always correct and are the names used throughout life.
                 
                Also as far as Wilno records go, I am almost certain a few group members did get their own birth certificates from the civil archives.  I think this was Eugeniusz Krajewski and John Roy Wojciehowski and others?  (Sorry, Janusz, for probably spelling your name incorrectly.)  On second thought, Eugeniusz got his certificate from Polesie?  Anyway, will any members getting records from archives in the former Wilno help Basia and Cynthia out?
                 
                Also, and this is very frustrating to me, all churches were supposed to send copies or originals to either the appropriate diocese or archdiocese, or both, at least yearly, but it looks like not many did this.  Also inter-war besides baptismal records, there should have been also civil.  Could all these records have been destroyed?
                 
                the church
                the civil (town, county, or provincial) recordkeeping unit
                diocese
                archdiocese
                 
                I could see one, two, or even three of these being bombed, but all?  Yet I am having this problem with my father's birth document.  I contact the Ukrainian archives, and they tell me to contact Poland.  I contact Poland, and they tell me to contact Ukraine.  I haven't tried in at least 5 years.  It's time to try again.
                 
                I could see there being a problem with the changing of territory from one country to another, but that's besides the point.  If the above was followed, there should be at least one record still in Polish archives.  By the way, interwar, it was the law to report to the civil authorities besides the church. 
                 
                Good luck, and don't ever give up searching!
                Eve
                 
              • Lenarda Szymczak
                Basia I have sad news, it was common practice for the Russians (who had no religion) to burn churches and destroy all records. The Germans left them alone and
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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                  Basia

                   

                  I have sad news, it was common practice for the Russians (who had no religion) to burn churches and destroy all records.  The Germans left them alone and respected them. what is left, we are lucky to have, this is why so difficult tracing records.

                   

                  Regards

                  Lenarda

                  Australia

                   

                   

                   

                  From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eve5J@...
                  Sent: Friday, 03 February, 2012 8:20 AM
                  To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: old documents from Russian times

                   

                   

                  Basia,

                   

                  Are you sure your Polish cousins have the correct record for your great grandparents?  Was the surname a common one?  If so, they may have given you someone else's record.  Although my ancestors were from a different partition, the names are always correct and are the names used throughout life.

                   

                  Also as far as Wilno records go, I am almost certain a few group members did get their own birth certificates from the civil archives.  I think this was Eugeniusz Krajewski and John Roy Wojciehowski and others?  (Sorry, Janusz, for probably spelling your name incorrectly.)  On second thought, Eugeniusz got his certificate from Polesie?  Anyway, will any members getting records from archives in the former Wilno help Basia and Cynthia out?

                   

                  Also, and this is very frustrating to me, all churches were supposed to send copies or originals to either the appropriate diocese or archdiocese, or both, at least yearly, but it looks like not many did this.  Also inter-war besides baptismal records, there should have been also civil.  Could all these records have been destroyed?

                   

                  the church

                  the civil (town, county, or provincial) recordkeeping unit

                  diocese

                  archdiocese

                   

                  I could see one, two, or even three of these being bombed, but all?  Yet I am having this problem with my father's birth document.  I contact the Ukrainian archives, and they tell me to contact Poland.  I contact Poland, and they tell me to contact Ukraine.  I haven't tried in at least 5 years.  It's time to try again.

                   

                  I could see there being a problem with the changing of territory from one country to another, but that's besides the point.  If the above was followed, there should be at least one record still in Polish archives.  By the way, interwar, it was the law to report to the civil authorities besides the church. 

                   

                  Good luck, and don't ever give up searching!

                  Eve

                   

                • jbartoszynski
                  Metrical books, 1834-1900 Roman Catholic Church. Dolginovo (WILEJKA))
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 2, 2012
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                    Metrical books, 1834-1900

                    Roman Catholic Church. Dolginovo (WILEJKA))
                    https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/show?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog-search-api%3A8080%2Fwww-catalogapi-webservice%2Fitem%2F1594831

                    Metrical books, 1776-1879
                    Roman Catholic Church, Daniszew (WILEJKA)
                    https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/show?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog-search-api%3A8080%2Fwww-catalogapi-webservice%2Fitem%2F835273


                    Metrical books, 1837-1900

                    Roman Catholic Church. Budslav (VILEJKA)


                    https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/show?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog-search-api%3A8080%2Fwww-catalogapi-webservice%2Fitem%2F1594996


                    Metrical books, 1745-1866
                    author: Roman Catholic Church. Baturino (VILEJKA)

                    https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/show?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog-search-api%3A8080%2Fwww-catalogapi-webservice%2Fitem%2F1566499

                    John Bartoszynski
                    UK

                    --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "antoni530" <askazimierski@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Basia and Cynthia,
                    >
                    > There is no question that in order to obtain or search church records one has to know which church or cerkiew someone was baptised or christened.
                    > In case of Michal Pukiello , as I understand, he was born in Makarycze near Wilejka in woj. Wilno in 1922. Any documents , if they still exist, would be at a church where Michal was baptised; presumably soon after his birth in November 1922. He was a Roman Catholic and no doubt there is a possibility that some records exist somewhere; either in Makarycze or Wilejka which was the nearest main town and it would have have had 'Kosciol parafialny', but who to contact?
                    > Perhaps some members might know or have had good results from Wilejka.
                    > antoni530 in UK
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Cynthia,
                    > >
                    > > The copy documents were sent to me by cousins in Poland. They travelled back to the family's old stamping ground and took photos of Parish books, but they also have some in their possession. Your problem Cynthia is that your Michael came from Wilno the same as my family. It is very difficult to get records there as so much was destroyed. If any documents do exist from 1939 onwards they tend to be in Lithuanian if not Russian.
                    > >
                    > > I am sorry I cannot help you, but I do understand and sympathise.
                    > >
                    > > Very best wishes,
                    > >
                    > > Basia
                    > > On 2 Feb 2012, at 17:28, Cynthia Pukiello wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello Basia,
                    > > > Hope you won't mind if I jump in & ask you where you managed to get hold of the documents you have, as it would possibly help me if I could get hold of these.
                    > > > Maybe your family had them & passed them to you soI will understand ok?
                    > > > Hope you are ok.
                    > > > Cynthia.
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: Barbara Milligan
                    > > > To: kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:57 PM
                    > > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] old documents from Russian times
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I have a question for historians who know about birth and marriage certificates under Russian occupation of Poland.
                    > > >
                    > > > I have a photocopy of my great-grandparents marriage certificate. In it, both my great-grandparents have a christian name which was never subsequently used in any deed or document, except perhaps occasionally as a second name. The same applies to my great-great-grandmother's name where what was possibly a second name is given as her first christian name.
                    > > >
                    > > > My question is was this how names were written under Russian occupation - i.e. second name first?
                    > > >
                    > > > Many thanks,
                    > > >
                    > > > Basia (UK)
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date.
                    > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > > > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3568 - Release Date: 04/12/11 06:34:00
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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