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Re: Death Rates/Survival Rates ( a WWII closed-door spin-off)

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  • Mark and Oyun
    Deat Group, I trust everyone have a good festive season. I put this off because it seemed inappropriate to be going on about this during the holidays, but now
    Message 1 of 240 , Jan 3, 2012
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      Deat Group,


      I trust everyone have a good festive season. I put this off because it seemed inappropriate to be going on about this during the holidays, but now it is time to get back to work. If you will indulge me, I offer some more musings about mortality and deportation. You might like to stop reading now if this is going to offend you.



      Most of the figures I grew up with come from a very early source; the report given by two extremely brave Polish spies who in 1940 travelled some 28,000 kilometers to gather information for Polish intelligence [O.II – the 2nd Bureau, 2 Oddzial] about the conditions of the prisoners and deportees. The Chief of the Lwow Intelligence Bureau, Alexander Klotz (a.k.a  Alfonc Kloc a.k.a Jan Baranowski) and Eleonora Wanda Ptaszek secretly travelled from Lwow to Komi across Siberia, to Irkutsk and Alma Ata and back. The information they brought back was used to compile the following report:




      Civilians Deported to the USSR 1940-1941


      TOTAL:   1,450,000 of these:                                   Poles 841,000 Jews 281,000    


      EXILE & PRISON:   1,240,000   of these:                  Poles 763,000  Jews 256,000


      FORCED MOBILISATION RED ARMY:  210,000    Poles 78,000      Jews 25,000


      From German Zone of Occupation [Refugees in the Soviet Zone]


      TOTAL:   336,000    of these:                                  Poles 138,000  Jews 198,000


      EXILE & PRISON :   320,000  of these:                    Poles 128,000   Jews 192,000


      FORCED MOBILISATION RED ARMY:   16,000    Poles 10,000     Jews 6,000


      From Soviet Zone of Occupations [Residents of the Soviet Zone]


      TOTAL:   1,114,000 of these:                                     Poles 703,000  Jews 83,000


      EXILE & PRISON:    920,000 of these:                        Poles 638,000  Jews 64,000


      FORCED MOBILISATION RED ARMY:    194,000    Poles 68,000    Jews 19,000




      NB. The report also has the smaller breakdown for other nationalities but they have been omitted here.


      Nationality, like the Polish 1931 Census, is established in term of mother language. "Jews" is actually recorded as "Yiddish/Hebrew Speakers"


      The footnotes state that the figures are based on reports from members of the Z.W.Z [precursor of the A.K. (Home Army)] and from citizens sent to the USSR.


      At this stage there was no attempt to reckon the numbers who had died. Much of this data is taken from information taken from Poles actually in the camps and the numbers are now viewed as overinflated, but at the time they were the best that available.


      By 1942 the Polish Government was ready to review the figures and to revise them downwards slightly. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs published the following report:




      Overall Losses.


      1 Prisoners of War and interned in Lithuania:  from 40,000 to 100,000

      2 Arrested:  about 300,000

      3 Mobilized into the Red Army:  from 70,000 to 100,000

      4 Contracted to work in the USSR:  from 50,000 to 100,000

      5 Deported 1939-1941:  from 800,000 to 1,100,000


      Total: From 1,260,000 to 1,400,000


      From this number (if we take the minimum number of 1,200,000) Poles made up 800,000 or 67%; Jews (a large proportion of the refugees in the eastern part of Poland) 200,000 or 17%; Byelorussians 150,000 or 12& and Ukrainians 50,000 or 4%.


      From this number we have to consider the following as losses:

      Summarily executed at the beginning of the Soviet occupation and in prisons: 30,000

      Died in prison and during the prisoner transports (10%): 30,000

      Prisoners of war died in camps: 20,000

      Deportees died during deportation (4%): 40,000

      Died in prisons and camps from 1940-42 (30-35%): 350,000


      Total: 470,000


      From the remaining 730,000 we have to exclude those who, as a result of the Polish-Soviet Accord in July 1941, joined the Polish Army and left the USSR with their families – in total sum 75,000 people.


      From the remainder, about 650,000, until the end of 1942 a part remains yet to be freed from Soviets prisons and corrective camps, without contact from the outside world and cut-off from sources of help. This number is thought to be about 50,000. A further part is in Construction Battalions and in the ranks of the Red Army – some 100,000. Of the remainder only a part are able to take advantage of Polish welfare organized thanks to the Polish-Soviet Accord. A large part of these deportees were totally cut-off from the outside world and were unable to communicate with Polish sources of welfare due to geographical considerations; or they were worried that communication with Polish welfare would result in harassment from the Soviet authorities.


       http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/42/0/-/72/str/1/5/#tab2 [see 41.jpg]


      The conclusion above seems ill-informed and underestimates the work done by the Polish Embassy/Delegatura in the Soviet Union at the time – the myth continues today:

      "…former Polish citizens held in special settlements and prisoner of war camps were granted 'amnesty' and allowed to enrol in Polish army units. The location of reception centres was kept secret and no travel facilities provided." [Emphasis mine]


      This is quite untrue. The Polish Embassy in Kuibishev spent a lot of time and money publicizing the destinations available – often a choice of collection centres was given. A travel voucher was issued on the back of the individual "Udostoverenie" (Identity Document) or was given as a group when a special train was organized.


      Here are some slightly different figures. I have published this before in a previous post. By 1946 the following numbers had become common circulation.

      Deported:   990,000

      Imprisoned (Prisons/camps):   250,000

      Conscripted to Red Army:   210,000

      POWs from 1939:   230,000

      Interned after 1939: 12,000


      Total:   1,692,000


      Of these…


      Left the USSR in two evacuations 1942:   114,500

      "Other Ranks" released from POW camps:   46,000

      Remained in USSR:   613,000

      Died of natural causes in USSR up to 1 October 1942:   415,800

      Kept in prison and corrective labour camps contrary to

      the "Amnesty" resulting from the Polish Soviet Accord 30 July 1941:   68,400

      "Missing" officers from the Kozielsk, Ostashkov and Starobielsk camps (Katyn):   8,300

      Died during transport in Feb. 1940, murdered during the evacuation of

       prisons after the start of the German-Soviet War June 1941, missing and otherwise unaccounted for:   426,000


       Total: 1,692,000



      When Bronislaw Kusnierz, the exile-government's Minister of Justice published "Stalin and the Poles" in 1949… what figures did he use? The same as were current at the time – he had to as there was very little else. Firstly he had no other information and, secondly, if he had done otherwise, it would have been admitting that the all the public pronouncements to that point were wrong.


      28 October 1941   Communique No.4


      "The number of those deported has yet to be established, but it is thought to be [oceniana] more than one and a half million."


       Chief of the Polish Military Families Office in London, General [Tadeusz] Malinowski to the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.




      No one in the 1940s could have foreseen that 70 years later the Soviet Union would be gone, the public could sit at home and scrutinize government documents on the internet… or that there would be any access to any NKVD records.


      So how do these figures stack up to scrutiny?

      As of 16th June 1942 there were at least 357,245 Registered Polish citizens alive in the USSR.

      BARNAUL                     28,000   RUSSIA/ALTAISK

      ALMA ATA                    25,602   KAZAKHSTAN

      CZIMKENT                    20,500   KAZAKHSTAN

      DZAMBUL                    18,000   KAZAKHSTAN


      ARCHANGIELSK           16,000 RUSSIA

      KIROW                         15,000 RUSSIA

      CZELABINSK                14,000 RUSSIA

      SYKTYWKAR                13,000 RUSSIA/KOMI

      AKMOLINSK                 11,917 KAZAKHSTAN

      CZKALOW                    11,000 KAZAKHSTAN

      PAWLODAR                 10,700 KAZAKHSTAN

      KUSTANAJ                     8,100   KAZAKHSTAN

      SEMIPALATYNSK           7,090   KAZAKHSTAN

      WLADYWOSTOK          5,000   RUSSIA (estimate… report say "probably a few thousand")

      ASZCHABAD                 3,460   TURKMENISTAN

      ALDAN                          1,700   RUSSIA/YAKUTSK

      SARATOW                    No figure RUSSIA


      TOTAL                         357,245



      The figures show the Delegatura's change in emphasis as the balance of Poles had shifted from the north to the south as hundreds of thousands headed to Krasnovodsk. This report was compiled after the first evacuation and before the second. The approximately 360,000 registered Polish citizens must be seen as a minimum number of Poles as there must have been many more who were in transit at the time the list was compiled.


      In February of 1942 (Pre 1st Evacuation) there must have been around 412,000 (approx).

      By September of 1942 (Post 2nd Evacuation) there must have been at least 290,000.


      This is more or less confirmed by the Polish Foreign Ministry's report of 28th September 1944 giving the figures for Poles in the USSR as of April 1943. It is signed by the Chief of the Ministry's Eastern Section. The report was actually quantifying the number of Jews in the total and the first figure is for Polish Citizens (all nationalities)


      1/ Availing themselves of assistance from the Polish Embassy:

      271,000 of which 39.4% - 106,700 are Jews.


      2/ Remaining out of the Embassy's reach, mostly in the Far East:

      84,000 of which 29.7% - 25,000 are Jews.


      3/ Mobilized into the Red Army in 1940:

      150,000 of which 20% - 30,000 are Jews.


      4/ Mobilized into the so called "Labour Front":

      140,000 of which 24.3% - 34,000 are Jews.


      5/ Not covered by the amnesty, remaining in prisons and camps:

      180,000 of which 21.6% - 39,000 are Jews:


      6/ Conscripted in occupied Poland to work in the USSR:

      20,000 of which 94% - 18,000 are Jews.


      845,000 of which 30% - 253,000 are Jews. [His calculations]




      Although point 1 seems accurate, points 2 to 6 are defiantly speculative and may have been an attempt to fit the figures with the presumed total that had been used to that point. Once it became clear that there were only 400,000 poles registered, realistically there were (and still are) only three possible variables:

      1-      If 1.5/2 Million Poles were deported, over a million (or even 1.5 million) must have died from 1939 to 1941.

      2-      If 1.5/2 Million Poles were deported, many must have died but an even larger percentage had not been released  under the terms of the Polish-Soviet Accord.

      3-      A much smaller number of people were deported than originally reported, and the registered Poles were actually the bulk of the deportations and refugees.  


      So who were these Poles?


      a: Deportees to the "spetsposiolok":

      b: Former Prisoner of War

      c: Those who were imprisoned

      d: Those forcibly conscripted to the Red Army.

      e: Refugees escaping the Germans from 1939 – a large number of them being Jews.


      a/ I tend to agree with the current thinking that there were some 350,000 civilian deportees to the Spetsposioloks. It can never be a 100% accurate figure but for arithmetical purposes it is, in my opinion, close enough. It works for two reasons – if more than that were deported, and given  my assumed death rate of 10%, it becomes hard to explain what happened to the missing. The bulk of the Poles left behind after Anders' evacuations were made up of these people. The second reason is that no one has ever come up with some hard evidence to back up a larger number. If one million civilians were deported then something must have happened to them – they either died or they didn't…. obviously! So how many died? This is the reason for my morbid fascination with death statistics.  If there were 300,000 (a very rough estimate) Spetsposiolok survivors that would mean 70%... 700,000 died there. I can find no evidence to support this. Based on my original assumption of 10% deaths on the smaller deportation number:

      350,000 gives up 35,000 dead and 315,000 survived.


      In a letter dated 8th November 1941: Stanislaw Kot, Polish Ambassador, Moscow wrote to the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, London. [Page 3 Section IV.]


      The Soviets say that they deported about 400,000 citizens. Undoubtedly they have not added to this the untold number conscripted into the army – maybe in the upper tens of thousands, or maybe even a few time more.


      This is almost the same information given to General Anders by NKVD General Fiedotow, but Anders came to the conclusion that this figure did not include any other nationalities. Who was right? That's the problem with reported speech. Did they say "Poles" and mean ethnic Poles or Polish citizens? Did they say Polish citizens and mean all Polish citizens or did they mean "ethnic" Polish citizens?

      b/ There were some 220,000 prisoners taken by the Red Army in 1939. 43,000 were immediately sent to the German Occupation Zone as part of a pre-existing agreement. In return the Germans handed over approximately 13,000 Poles. The Soviets also released nearly 43,000 Poles of Ukrainian/Byelorussian origin. After September there were also further releases of ethnic Poles who were considered as non-political/no threat. My Grandfather, the Ulan from Bialystok, was one of them but this number was both small and unknown. The Soviets then acquired a further 30,000 from the Baltic States. The balance for POWs comes to something around 177,000.


      c,d/ The number of civilians imprisoned is about 250,000. In the absence of any information to the contrary this is as good a figure as any. There is no accurate figure and this is compounded by double counting: POWs who were released and then imprisoned; prisoners who were conscripted to the Construction Battalions; POWs who were conscripted in the Red Army or Construction Battalions. This would give a total of 427,000 exPOWs and prisoners suffering the harshest conditions that the GULAG could throw at them. The attrition rate was extremely high. The Katyn murders fall in this group, as do the countless prison murders and death matches.


      On the plus side some 26,000 former POWs joined Anders Army and were later evacuated in 1942.


      The Poles conscripted in the Red Army are also in this group. Although many Poles fought in front-line units, this was not the norm. Polish conscripts were not trusted and usually served either in support units or on Construction Battalions building fortifications at the front – mortality was high. In Kamchatka the mortality rate was in the high 90%, in the Pechora Railway Construction Battalions in Komi about 75% died. Unlike the Poles in this previous group, all of the Poles here were deemed "criminals" and were convicted as such. Terms from 5 to 10 years were usual. However in Pechorlag, like everywhere, luck played its part. It largely depended on where the prisoner was assigned. Some camps were relatively safe, some virtually guaranteed death.  http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/1/0/-/82/str/1/9/#skan An 80% death rate for this category would seem appropriate, and although it may have been lower, I don't think it was higher.


      427,000 POWs and other prisoners gives up 341,600 dead and 85,400 survived.


      Subtotal (survivors of groups a, b , c and d)

      777,000 gives up 376,000 dead and 400,400 survived.


      From these 400,000 survivors about 120,000 were evacuated with Anders:

      77,000 military personnel [including the 26,000 former POWs and  43,000 civilians.


      The closest figures for post-Soviet deaths are:

      En-route to Iran and in Pahlevi:                      700 deaths (approximately)

      Iran (March 1942 TO February 1946):           2,918 deaths

      Iraq 1942-19433:                                            435 deaths

      Other places:                                                  250 deaths


      TOTAL: 4,300 (About 10% of the total civilian population)


      This gives about 300,000 Poles left in the Soviet Union after the departure of Anders.

      One group not mentioned yet is my e/ group from the list above – refugees; both Polish and Jewish. This became a problem for the Delegatura working in the Soviet Union. The "Amnesty" was designed for all Polish Citizens (or at least that was what the Polish Government thought) who had been imprisoned and deported. Moscow had a very narrow definition of who it would apply it to – only ethnic Poles need apply!... and only those who had been in prison, but there is evidence to suggest that they were pushing Jews on the Poles.  I do not propose to go into Jewish affairs here, but it is an interesting subject which we might return to on a later occasion. Ambassador Kot in his letter cited above states that the Jews made up one third of the Polish citizens trying to leave. If Klotz's figure are accurate, and I do not suggest they are, they would confirm that there was a large body of Polish Jews in the Soviet Union. How large?  We know that only 4,000 got out with Anders… and that is a whole other story!


      Finally, from the survivors there is the enrolment to   "Berling's" Polish 1st Corps (Under Soviet Command): 43,500 troops in total:

      4,564 Officers + 38,936 Other Ranks. It is estimated that 70% of the officers were Soviet citizens so the Officer Corp would be 1825 Poles (mostly junior officers). This makes 41,700 Poles in Berling's Army. The number is probably a little higher because recruitment from the Poles in the USSR continued until the Corps was upgraded to an Army and crossed the 1939 Polish border. Prior to that time recruitment was only from deported Polish citizens/Poles in the USSR.


      And that is where the arithmetic stops for now. The next step would be to collect data on repatriation. My numbers - as do everyone else's - end up as speculation unless a semi-accurate account of how many Poles actually left the Soviet Union can be established over and above the 1942 total. The research goes on.


      All the information above is from primary archival sources that are freely available online. None are from Russian/Soviet sources (unless you count the Special Deportations figure). Please check them yourselves. The Sikorski Institute has a mass of information. There is even more in the Hoover Collection, now available online through the Archiwum Akt Nowych in Warsaw.


      A few weeks ago a group member asked me why I was fixating on this topic. My answer is that as much as one would like, one simply cannot go on rubbishing Russian research without putting forward something credible of one's own… banging on about left-wing conspiracies and revisionist brainwashing are just not going to do it anymore. If the revisionists are wrong… prove it. Or, to be more exact, if my figures are wrong then give me an accurate and verifiable alternative.  In non-Polish historical circles the old numbers are laughed at. Worse than that, I'm sorry to say, Polish historians are seen as chauvinist reactionaries with some form of martyr complex. As a Pole I find the label objectionable, but I can understand where it comes from.


      Treatment of Polish citizens under Soviet occupation.


      In 1940 and the first half of 1941, the Soviets deported more than 1,200,000 Poles, most in four mass deportations. The first deportation took place February 10, 1940, with more than 220,000 sent to northern European Russia; the second on April 13, 1940, sending 320,000 primarily to Kazakhstan; a third wave in June–July 1940 totaled more than 240,000; the fourth occurred in June 1941, deporting 300,000. Upon resumption of Polish-Soviet diplomatic relations in 1941, it was determined based on Soviet information that more than 760,000 of the deportees had died — a large part of those dead being children, who had comprised about a third of deportees.




      This is presented as a statement of fact. It has never been proven that 760,000 people died. It is inaccurate historical writing.  Anyway, it is not accepted by everyone. As the Wikipedia discussion group wrote:


      •          It's an opinion, one of many.

      •          Poles means also ethnic Ukrainians, Jews, Belarusians.

      •          It's hard to believe given the availability of the NKVD archives the numbers of deported in 1939-1940 are somehow subject to "guesswork". The actual number is around 380,000 (including non-Poles), most of them ended up in 'special settlements' (about 210,000) the rest in the Gulag camps. The majortiy survived and left either with the Anders army in 1941 (About 41 000 combatants and 74 000 civilians)joining the British High Command in the Middle East, traveling through Iran, Iraq and Palestine or returned to Poland after the war.

      •          Zemskov, V. N. Spetsposelentsy v SSSR, 1930-1960. Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence J. Arch Getty, Gabor T. Rittersporn, Viktor N. Zemskov The American Historical Review, Vol. 98, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 1017-1049

      •          Tadeusz Piotrowski (hardly a Soviet sympathiser) quotes in his book 320,000 total deported, excluding PoWs. Earlier estimates of 1.2-1.5mln were based on anecdotal evidence before NKVD data was available, and are of little value. For example R. J. Rummel's 1.2 mil estimate is entirely based on "Stalin and the Poles: An Indictment of the Soviet Leaders". by Bronislaw Kusnierz (1949)... "compiled by the anonymous authors from the ranks of the Polish emigres and presented to the English-speaking world by Dr. Bronislaw Kusnierz, Minister of Justice in the Polish Government in exile". Time to stop the confusion [My highlight]




      And confusion it is. In the same article cited above, but probably not by the same person who wrote the entry on the Treatment of Polish citizens under Soviet occupation above there is:




      During the two years following the annexation, they arrested approximately 100,000 Polish citizens and deported between 350,000 and 1,500,000, of whom between 150,000 and 1,000,000 died, mostly civilians.


      Read that again… they deported between 350,000 and 1,500,000. One would think 70 years on we would be a little closer to getting an approximate number.  Worse still…

      Between 150,000 and 1,000,000 died. Really! That is a very useful statistic!


      Worse than this a contradiction has developed over the past few years between the writings of Poles in Poland and those of what we might call the "exile" community. Simply to check out to see the Wikepedia versions of the same story - the English and then the Polish versions.


      A blind unwillingness to accept evidence when it is presented, just because we don't want to believe it does us no favours in the outside world. I quote the mission statement for this group:  "Research, Remembrance Recognition of Poland's citizens' struggles in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."

      If we as a group cannot come up with an approximate figure, no one else will. However, let us do this with the truth, not what we would like the truth to be.


      As ever, I remain with best regards,


      Mark Ostrowski


      Writing from the Middle East

    • bstar53
      I was mostly with you until you made the rather ludicrous assertion that Obama might not have declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor amid other negative
      Message 240 of 240 , Jan 30, 2012
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        I was mostly with you until you made the rather ludicrous assertion that Obama might not have declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor amid other negative comments about FDR.

        Your own statement show that the allies were in now shape to take on a powerful Soviet force. The operation tag of "unthinkable" pretty much sums it up. Your reference to Japan supports it. The estimated losses if the anticipated invasion of the home island was in excess of a half million.

        Poland, Latvia and Estonia along with East Germany may well have been betrayed in the short term but it may well have prevented the extermination of the Polish people. It certainly would have involved nuclear weapons. Poland lives today in a better world by letting things cool. We did after all, win the cold war.

        Poland was betrayed in a more fundamental way for worse consequences in the 1700's by its own magnate class who allowed foreign troops to walk thru its borders.

        I think I detect some rather partisan tainting of history here.

        Bernie Starzewski
        Valders Wi. USA

        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Dan Ford <cub06h@...> wrote:
        > I think you give Roosevelt too much credit for cunning. Churchill,
        > perhaps, but not Roosevelt! He genuinely believed that he could parley
        > with Stalin, just as Obama believed (and may still believe) that he can
        > parley with Ayatollah Kamani over Iran's nuclear program. Roosevelt
        > thought the Russians were just another political pressure group--like
        > the Polish-Americans in Chicago, for example, whose votes he needed in
        > 1944, hence the need to keep the Tehran agreements secret at least until
        > the election was over.
        > Churchill by contrast had a very clear idea of what Stalin intended, and
        > as I have previously shown, he seriously considered what it would take
        > in the way of British, American, Polish, and German (yes! German!)
        > troops to roll back the Red Army to the 1939 borders of the Soviet
        > Union. Truman vetoed that notion, and Churchill's own military chiefs
        > were likewise opposed. (The plan was called Operation Unthinkable.)
        > The choice was between throwing Poland under the bus and going to war
        > against the Red Army, which was just as powerful in June 1945 as it had
        > been in April, whereas the US Army was already deploying to the Pacific,
        > and the British Army was pretty much spent. Poland got thrown under the
        > bus. Would Cameron and Obama do any differently today?
        > (I'm not entirely convinced that Obama, were he president during the
        > Second World War, would have gone to war against Japan or Germany in
        > 1941, let alone against the USSR in 1945.)
        > Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
        > On 1/30/2012 1:22 PM, John Halucha wrote:
        > > Thanks for your work to bring this crime to the attention of more
        > > people, Dan.
        > > KS members who want to look at the US Congress report itself can find
        > > it in our files at
        > > http://www.kresy-siberia.com/1952_Katyn_report_to_Congress.pdf
        > > The most interesting aspect, to me, is the West's collusion to cover
        > > up Stalin's crime - something that the report to Congress steers clear
        > > of. In other words, besides being interested in the coverup of the
        > > crime, I'm interested in the coverup of the coverup. As you point out,
        > > "the State Department refused to follow Congress's recommendation that
        > > the Katyn massacres be brought up at the United Nations."
        > > You say in your author's note: "It's long been an article of faith
        > > among Poles in the West that the United States and Britain hushed up
        > > the atrocity in the Katyn Forest and related massacre sites. This made
        > > sense during the Second World War, when Churchill and Roosevelt were
        > > desperate to keep the Soviet Union in the war again Germany. But why
        > > would the coverup have continued after 1948, when the Cold War was in
        > > full swing? It didn't, as these previously unpublished documents reveal."
        > > First, it is not obvious that the coverup "made sense" during the
        > > Second World War. I often wonder if apologists for Roosevelt and
        > > Churchill on this count would just as comfortably countenance them
        > > covering up Hitler's crimes if the allegiances been different at the
        > > time, and the destruction of Stalin had been to their geopolitical
        > > advantage instead. The way Roosevelt and Churchill compromised their
        > > core principles on this count laid the groundwork for ongoing
        > > corruption in their dealings with Stalin later.
        > > While the US did an investigation and publicly released its finding of
        > > Soviet guilt in 1952, it pointedly skirted the issue of when
        > > Roosevelt's administration knew the truth and how hard it worked to
        > > keep it hidden. The British continued a slightly different tack into
        > > at least the 1970s ( see
        > > http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/our-history/historical-publications/research-projects/katyn/
        > > and the pages that link from it), essentially that the British
        > > government "has no definite view as regards the attribution of guilt
        > > for the Katyn massacre". So, it laid the groundwork to argue in the
        > > future, should the crime's perpetrator ever been definitively proven
        > > (as it subsequently was) that it did not know at the time.
        > > Of course, we know now that both Churchill and Roosevelt were totally
        > > aware of Soviet responsibility early on. They knew it when they
        > > partied with Stalin at Teheran and Yalta. They knew of Stalin's
        > > criminality when they countenanced him keeping the half of Poland he
        > > had stolen as Hitler's partner, and they knew it when they pretended
        > > to believe his promises of an independent government and free
        > > elections in Poland after the war.
        > > That may help answer the question, "But why would the coverup have
        > > continued after 1948, when the Cold War was in full swing?" The
        > > coverup of the US and British early knowledge of the crime's
        > > perpetrator was not to keep polishing the image of "Uncle Joe" even
        > > after he was their acknowledged enemy, but to protect the image of
        > > their own heroes Roosevelt and Churchill. There was great reluctance
        > > to publicize their collusion in hiding the truth while they
        > > "negotiated" with Stalin. It remains easier for some people to
        > > maintain Churchill's later claim amounting to that they were naively
        > > bamboozled by Stalin whom they had no reason to distrust, than that
        > > they knew full well that they were dealing with a mass-murderer and
        > > liar but chose to go along with him for their own motives.
        > > At every level of every society there have always been criminals and
        > > there probably always will be. An important question is how the "good
        > > guys" deal with those criminals and protect us from them and budding
        > > criminals who are inevitably going to crop up. Because the Katyn
        > > coverup example is an indicator of how corrupted Roosevelt and
        > > Churchill were, its importance is broader than "merely" determining
        > > responsibility for the cold-blooded officially sanctioned murders of
        > > more than 22,000 Polish prisoners.
        > > Why worry about the crime and coverup more than a half-century later?
        > > Perhaps we should reflect on Santayana: "Those who do not remember the
        > > past are condemned to relive it." In this instance, Stalin OK'd the
        > > murders confident no one would ever know what he did, or he didn't
        > > care. Roosevelt and Churchill OK'd the coverup because they hoped no
        > > one would ever know what they did, or at least that by the time it was
        > > known no one would care.
        > > There may be others in our current governments who are tempted to
        > > cover up crimes from the same perspective, much as Hitler was
        > > comfortable about perpetrating the Jewish Holocaust after witnessing
        > > the world's indifferent stance on the Armenian genocide by the Turks.
        > > We can't let that happen: the world needs to reflect not only on
        > > Stalin did, but on what Roosevelt and Churchill did to help cover it
        > > up. We need to condemn being an accessory after the fact, not excuse it.
        > > More evil Stalins have come up, and more will. While we may feel
        > > powerless to prevent emergence of psychopaths, we should feel hope
        > > that we can influence people of good will to do the right thing when
        > > the criminals emerge. That's why we need to study the despicable
        > > behaviour of Roosevelt and Churchill, and educate more people about
        > > it. Potential imitators need to fear that eventually the truth will
        > > out and their complicity will be exposed.
        > >
        > > John Halucha
        > > Sault Ste Marie Canada
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > *From:* Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
        > > *To:* Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        > > *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2012 8:25:54 AM
        > > *Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Death Rates/Survival Rates [From
        > > the Archives]
        > >
        > > Well, the full report--Findings of the Select Committee--is certainly
        > > available. I have published it as an ebook:
        > >
        > > http://www.amazon.com/Katyn-Findings-1952-intellectuals-ebook/dp/B005BZKWPW/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2
        > >
        > > Of course there was testimony that didn't make it into the final report,
        > > and no doubt that's what Mr Paul is referring to. He seems anxious to
        > > prove a cover-up, but his thesis is disproved by the fact that the
        > > report was indeed published.
        > >
        > > It is true that the Eisenhower administration was in 1953 trying to calm
        > > the waters with Soviet Russia, those being somewhat roiled by the Berlin
        > > Blockade and especially the Korean War, which he had pledged to bring to
        > > an end. Accordingly, the State Department refused to follow Congress's
        > > recommendation that the Katyn massacres be brought up at the United
        > > Nations. That was the whole of the "cover-up."
        > >
        > > Beware of writers! They feel a need to come up with the larger number or
        > > the unknown conspiracy, both of which help to get books published and,
        > > once published, bought.
        > >
        > > There was no cover-up. People just weren't all that interested, with the
        > > big War behind them and the Korean War dragging on and on. They were
        > > much more interested in hunting out Communists in the US government than
        > > in raking up a massacre thirteen years old.
        > >
        > > (I hasten to add that Mr Paul's book is excellent, apart from that bit
        > > of silliness, which I think appears only in the third edition. Perhaps
        > > he needed something new to persuade the publisher to bring it out again.)
        > >
        > > Blue skies! -- Dan Ford USA
        > >
        > >
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