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Re: Can you help?

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  • petermuskus
    Anita, You ask some very interesting questions so I look forward to the answers. My Babusia got back to Poland in 1956. If 114,000 left with Anders Army, this
    Message 1 of 15 , May 5, 2011
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      Anita,

      You ask some very interesting questions so I look forward to the answers. My Babusia got back to Poland in 1956.

      If 114,000 left with Anders Army, this is probably less than 10% of those deported. So over 90% were left in their camps (or between the camps and Persia), or had already died. Anyway considerably more than 10% were left behind - does anyone disagree with these approximate figures?

      Best wishes
      Peter

      Names: Latawiec, Muskus
      Poland: Rawa Ruska near Lwow, Przychojec near Lezajsk
      Prisons: Brygidki, Lwow and Alma Ata
      Kazakhstan: Alga, Aktyubinsk
      Camps: Karaganda, Dzhezkazgan
      Siberia: Dolgiy-Most in Krasnoyarsk Krai
      Africa: Grazyna Muskus in Tengeru
      Army: Tashkent cadet camp, Aquitania to New York, 316 Squadron UK, radar mechanic
      Present location: London and Nairn, Scotland

      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "anitah80" <anitah80@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am trying to fill in blanks in my memory of childhood spent in area around Pyshma. My family, Emanuel and Fanny Mandelbaum and I came from Bielsko-Biala, Poland, we fled to Lvov at the beginning of WW II and from there we were taken to Siberia in 1940. I was two years old at the time. Both my parents worked at cutting down trees and planting potatoes. I have a document signed in Pyshma, Sverdlovsk on March 10, 1946 giving my family permission to leave Russia. We returned to Bielsko-Biala in May, 1946.
      >
      > I would love to hear from anyone with similar experiences. What was the daily life like? Where did the supervisors live? I do not remember them living in the long barach where we lived? I remember being in a school situation and learning Russian songs, who were our teachers and where did they come from? My parents decided to remain put in 1941-42 when Poles were freed from labor camps. Many went south through the Caucuses. I understand that perhaps 10% of Poles remained in their camps. What was the rationale for such decisions? For those who returned to Poland in 1946, was this a group emigration?
      >
      > I would greatly appreciate any help at all. Thank you.
      >
      > Anita Hotchkiss, Vineyard Haven, Massachusetts
      >
    • Helen Bitner
      Anita This group has a wealth of experiences to share and I wish you every success in your search. My late husband said that their group at Station 91 on the
      Message 2 of 15 , May 5, 2011
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        Anita
        This group has a wealth of experiences to share  and I wish you every success in your search.
        My late husband said that their group at Station 91 on the Kartaly-Akmolinsk Railway in Kazakhstan were never informed by the Soviet authorities that they were free but found out through the newspapers Pravda and Izvestia about the "Amnesty". Also, they came a across Poles riding rough on top of the coals on the railway trucks who were in appalling condition - clothes in tatters and half starved but determined to join the army of General Anders. Their group at Station 91  endlessly discussed the matter of joining up with the Polish Army forming in the south but they could not reach a decision on how to go about organizing such a long and hazardous journey. They did not know how to even start. 
        They were literally rescued by a Pole, Tadeusz, who had already joined the Polish Army forming in the south. His family was at Station 91 also and he offered to get  the necessary travel documents  and tickets for those who could cover the cost. The four families collected 24,000 roubles towards their expenses but some families decided not to make another dangerous journey to  yet another unknown destination with little hope of safe arrival.  Tadeusz; who had an air of authority and was fluent in Russian spent two days  wooing and bribing an officer of the NKVD at Akmolinsk to obtain tickets and travel permits. Even then the local Kazakhs were very skeptical that  the travel permits were genuine and that the local Soviet would allow them to leave, regardless of the "amnesty".  They left Station 91 by train on 11th February 1942 and arrived in Guzar  after about three weeks. Their food supply was always precarious but they were among the more fortunate of the deportees because they were relatively secure during the actual journey.  In Guzar various diseases were rampant and up to 150 deaths a day were recorded. Once again to get on a train to the port of Krasnovosk was another scramble to brave the NKVD who were as obstructive as they could be regarding the evacuees. The crossing of the Caspian Sea to Pahlevi   was likened to walking through hell by more than one, including my husband who said when he studied Dante's  Inferno  it reminded him of that crossing.
        In addition to all of the above difficulties that had to be surmounted there was only a small window of opportunity when leaving was possible . This was from 31st July 1941 up to when the Soviets withdrew "amnesty' on 16th January 1943.  Sadly thousands more Poles who wanted to get out were unable to do so.
        All the best
        Helen
          

        On 4 May 2011, at 19:32, anitah80 wrote:


      • Gita Urban-Mathieux
        Anita, If you have not read it I recommend you read The Endless Steppe by Esther Hautzig. It is listed in Amazon. Gita Urban-Mathieux, Virginia
        Message 3 of 15 , May 5, 2011
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          Anita,

          If you have not read it I recommend you read The Endless Steppe by Esther Hautzig.  It is listed in Amazon.

          Gita Urban-Mathieux, Virginia


          From: anitah80 <anitah80@...>
          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 2:32:01 PM
          Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Can you help?

           

          I am trying to fill in blanks in my memory of childhood spent in area around Pyshma. My family, Emanuel and Fanny Mandelbaum and I came from Bielsko-Biala, Poland, we fled to Lvov at the beginning of WW II and from there we were taken to Siberia in 1940. I was two years old at the time. Both my parents worked at cutting down trees and planting potatoes. I have a document signed in Pyshma, Sverdlovsk on March 10, 1946 giving my family permission to leave Russia. We returned to Bielsko-Biala in May, 1946.

          I would love to hear from anyone with similar experiences. What was the daily life like? Where did the supervisors live? I do not remember them living in the long barach where we lived? I remember being in a school situation and learning Russian songs, who were our teachers and where did they come from? My parents decided to remain put in 1941-42 when Poles were freed from labor camps. Many went south through the Caucuses. I understand that perhaps 10% of Poles remained in their camps. What was the rationale for such decisions? For those who returned to Poland in 1946, was this a group emigration?

          I would greatly appreciate any help at all. Thank you.

          Anita Hotchkiss, Vineyard Haven, Massachusetts

        • Barbara Scrivens
          Hi Peter and Anita, I’ve taken the liberty of changing the subject line. Using the word help sometimes means the message comes from an insalubrious source
          Message 4 of 15 , May 5, 2011
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            Hi Peter and Anita,

             

            I’ve taken the liberty of changing the subject line. Using the word help sometimes means the message comes from an insalubrious source and some members may not open it.

             

            About a month ago, I did some calculations on deportee numbers. If you look back at the posts for subject lines mentioning things like numbers, deportees, etc. you will find links. If you go to Stefan’s message of 30/03/2011 (New Zealand date, could be later for others) subject Re: Numbers on WWII deportations, you will find a link to the late Jagna Wright’s assessment. It’s in about the middle of that discussion.

             

            I used Jagna’s and Gen Anders’ calculations and came to the conclusion that those deported from Poland to Siberia from 1939 to 1945 and who managed to escape with Anders numbered fewer than 7%. After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped.

             

            Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out. A sobering thought is that most of us on this forum can be considered a part of that statistic, both survivors and children and grandchildren of survivors.

             

            As usual, I add my codicil that I am not a historian and my military knowledge is limited. I read a lot and suggest doing the same will give you an insight into the context in which this all occurred, starting with any book by a reputable historian such as Norman Davies. Browse the internet. You will be surprised what is out there.

             

            Kind regards

            Barbara Scrivens

            Auckland

            New Zealand

             

             

             

            From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of petermuskus
            Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2011 7:22 p.m.
            To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Can you help?

             

             



            Anita,

            You ask some very interesting questions so I look forward to the answers. My Babusia got back to Poland in 1956.

            If 114,000 left with Anders Army, this is probably less than 10% of those deported. So over 90% were left in their camps (or between the camps and Persia), or had already died. Anyway considerably more than 10% were left behind - does anyone disagree with these approximate figures?

            Best wishes
            Peter

            Names: Latawiec, Muskus
            Poland: Rawa Ruska near Lwow, Przychojec near Lezajsk
            Prisons: Brygidki, Lwow and Alma Ata
            Kazakhstan: Alga, Aktyubinsk
            Camps: Karaganda, Dzhezkazgan
            Siberia: Dolgiy-Most in Krasnoyarsk Krai
            Africa: Grazyna Muskus in Tengeru
            Army: Tashkent cadet camp, Aquitania to New York, 316 Squadron UK, radar mechanic
            Present location: London and Nairn, Scotland

            --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups..com, "anitah80" <anitah80@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am trying to fill in blanks in my memory of childhood spent in area around Pyshma. My family, Emanuel and Fanny Mandelbaum and I came from Bielsko-Biala, Poland, we fled to Lvov at the beginning of WW II and from there we were taken to Siberia in 1940. I was two years old at the time. Both my parents worked at cutting down trees and planting potatoes. I have a document signed in Pyshma, Sverdlovsk on March 10, 1946 giving my family permission to leave Russia. We returned to Bielsko-Biala in May, 1946.
            >
            > I would love to hear from anyone with similar experiences. What was the daily life like? Where did the supervisors live? I do not remember them living in the long barach where we lived? I remember being in a school situation and learning Russian songs, who were our teachers and where did they come from? My parents decided to remain put in 1941-42 when Poles were freed from labor camps. Many went south through the Caucuses. I understand that perhaps 10% of Poles remained in their camps. What was the rationale for such decisions? For those who returned to Poland in 1946, was this a group emigration?
            >
            > I would greatly appreciate any help at all. Thank you.
            >
            > Anita Hotchkiss, Vineyard Haven, Massachusetts
            >

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            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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          • Stefan Jackowski
            Hi Barbara, Peter, and Anita, .. Barbarba, it s always a delight to read your thoughtful and earnest posts, .. but I m afraid your number of 4% of deported
            Message 5 of 15 , May 5, 2011
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              Hi Barbara, Peter, and Anita,

              .. Barbarba, it's always a delight to read your thoughtful and earnest posts, .. but I'm afraid your number of 4% of deported
              Poles eventually leaving the USSR is not even close to accurate.

              Please see Professor Piotr Eberhardt's article on the many, massive forced migrations in Poland circa 1939-1948, which details
              the deportations from Eastern Poland to Siberia starting on page 17;

              http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf

              And note his figure on Pg. 57 - Table 14 - of 1,699,800 Poles "repatriated" from the Soviet Union by Jan. 1 1947.

              (I have also casually noted, in researching the eventual fate of the Polish deportees sent to Kostousowo, Sverdlovsk obl., that
              the vast  majority seemed to have ended up back in Poland after the War. .. I suspect that this is indicative, but obviously not
              conclusive.)

              Also see the excellent article on Mathew Bielawa's fascinating website concerning "Panstwowy Urzad Repatriacyjcy", the post War
              Polish "State Office of Repatriation":

              http://www.halgal.com/pur_home.html

              Trust this is of interest ..


              Warmest and most salubrious regards,     ; )

              Stefan Jackowski
              Toronto


               

              From: Barbara Scrivens <scrivs@...>
              To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 2:47:45 PM
              Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] deportee numbers

               

              Hi Peter and Anita,

               

              I’ve taken the liberty of changing the subject line. Using the word help sometimes means the message comes from an insalubrious source and some members may not open it.

               

              About a month ago, I did some calculations on deportee numbers. If you look back at the posts for subject lines mentioning things like numbers, deportees, etc. you will find links. If you go to Stefan’s message of 30/03/2011 (New Zealand date, could be later for others) subject Re: Numbers on WWII deportations, you will find a link to the late Jagna Wright’s assessment. It’s in about the middle of that discussion.

               

              I used Jagna’s and Gen Anders’ calculations and came to the conclusion that those deported from Poland to Siberia from 1939 to 1945 and who managed to escape with Anders numbered fewer than 7%. After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped.

               

              Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out. A sobering thought is that most of us on this forum can be considered a part of that statistic, both survivors and children and grandchildren of survivors.

               

              As usual, I add my codicil that I am not a historian and my military knowledge is limited. I read a lot and suggest doing the same will give you an insight into the context in which this all occurred, starting with any book by a reputable historian such as Norman Davies. Browse the internet. You will be surprised what is out there.

               

              Kind regards

              Barbara Scrivens

              Auckland

              New Zealand

               

               

               

              From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of petermuskus
              Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2011 7:22 p.m.
              To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Can you help?

               

               



              Anita,

              You ask some very interesting questions so I look forward to the answers. My Babusia got back to Poland in 1956.

              If 114,000 left with Anders Army, this is probably less than 10% of those deported. So over 90% were left in their camps (or between the camps and Persia), or had already died. Anyway considerably more than 10% were left behind - does anyone disagree with these approximate figures?

              Best wishes
              Peter

              Names: Latawiec, Muskus
              Poland: Rawa Ruska near Lwow, Przychojec near Lezajsk
              Prisons: Brygidki, Lwow and Alma Ata
              Kazakhstan: Alga, Aktyubinsk
              Camps: Karaganda, Dzhezkazgan
              Siberia: Dolgiy-Most in Krasnoyarsk Krai
              Africa: Grazyna Muskus in Tengeru
              Army: Tashkent cadet camp, Aquitania to New York, 316 Squadron UK, radar mechanic
              Present location: London and Nairn, Scotland

              --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups..com, "anitah80" <anitah80@...> wrote:
              >
              > I am trying to fill in blanks in my memory of childhood spent in area around Pyshma. My family, Emanuel and Fanny Mandelbaum and I came from Bielsko-Biala, Poland, we fled to Lvov at the beginning of WW II and from there we were taken to Siberia in 1940. I was two years old at the time. Both my parents worked at cutting down trees and planting potatoes. I have a document signed in Pyshma, Sverdlovsk on March 10, 1946 giving my family permission to leave Russia. We returned to Bielsko-Biala in May, 1946.
              >
              > I would love to hear from anyone with similar experiences. What was the daily life like? Where did the supervisors live? I do not remember them living in the long barach where we lived? I remember being in a school situation and learning Russian songs, who were our teachers and where did they come from? My parents decided to remain put in 1941-42 when Poles were freed from labor camps. Many went south through the Caucuses. I understand that perhaps 10% of Poles remained in their camps. What was the rationale for such decisions? For those who returned to Poland in 1946, was this a group emigration?
              >
              > I would greatly appreciate any help at all. Thank you.
              >
              > Anita Hotchkiss, Vineyard Haven, Massachusetts
              >

              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3608 - Release Date: 05/05/11 06:34:00

            • petermuskus
              Barbara I strongly disagree with your figure of only 4% returning to Poland and believe such a low figure to be harmful to the cause . I can only repeat what
              Message 6 of 15 , May 6, 2011
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                Barbara

                I strongly disagree with your figure of only 4% returning to Poland and believe such a low figure to be 'harmful to the cause'. I can only repeat what i read and put my trust in the scholarly book 'The fate of the Poles in the USSR 39-89' by T Piesakowski.

                His conservative guesstimate is 1,500,000 deported up to 1948. Returns = 114,500 with Anders, 263,413 by agreement 44-45 and 35,000 with Kosciuszko Division. This is 28%, considerably more than 4%.

                I feel that it is also wrong to say that 'after 1945 few, IF ANY, escaped'. Anita's family and my Babusia were 4, and Babusia was on a train carrying 800 in 1955! Page 300 of the above book has sources claiming 3,770,000 were repatriated 1945-59, though i expect many of these were from the Kresy.

                Let's stick with conservative figures which still give an horrendous outcome.

                Best wishes
                Peter

                --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara Scrivens" <scrivs@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Peter and Anita,
                >
                >
                >
                > I’ve taken the liberty of changing the subject line. Using the word help sometimes means the message comes from an insalubrious source and some members may not open it.
                >
                >
                >
                > About a month ago, I did some calculations on deportee numbers. If you look back at the posts for subject lines mentioning things like numbers, deportees, etc. you will find links. If you go to Stefan’s message of 30/03/2011 (New Zealand date, could be later for others) subject Re: Numbers on WWII deportations, you will find a link to the late Jagna Wright’s assessment. It’s in about the middle of that discussion.
                >
                >
                >
                > I used Jagna’s and Gen Anders’ calculations and came to the conclusion that those deported from Poland to Siberia from 1939 to 1945 and who managed to escape with Anders numbered fewer than 7%. After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped.
                >
                >
                >
                > Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out. A sobering thought is that most of us on this forum can be considered a part of that statistic, both survivors and children and grandchildren of survivors.
                >
                >
                >
                > As usual, I add my codicil that I am not a historian and my military knowledge is limited. I read a lot and suggest doing the same will give you an insight into the context in which this all occurred, starting with any book by a reputable historian such as Norman Davies. Browse the internet. You will be surprised what is out there.
                >
                >
                >
                > Kind regards
                >
                > Barbara Scrivens
                >
              • Dan Ford
                ... This seems to be a very valuable paper. Do you know any more about it or Prof Eberhardt? I find that he is also the author of an earlier book about
                Message 7 of 15 , May 6, 2011
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                  On 5/6/2011 2:29 AM, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
                  > Please see Professor Piotr Eberhardt's article on the many, massive
                  > forced migrations in Poland circa 1939-1948, which details
                  > the deportations from Eastern Poland to Siberia starting on page 17;
                  >
                  > http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf

                  This seems to be a very valuable paper. Do you know any more about it or
                  Prof Eberhardt? I find that he is also the author of an earlier book
                  about population movements in Eastern Europe. (The price is north of $200!)

                  http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Population-Changes-Twentieth-Century-Central-Eastern/dp/0765606658/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_

                  Has the PDF been published anywhere, in English or Polish?

                  The website also is interesting: http://www.igipz.pan.pl/

                  Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
                • Thyme
                  Witaj Dan; My family members who were also  forcibly deported to Siberia  were in the Ludowe Wojsko Polskie defending Poland. OFF TOPIC Polish Army in the
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 6, 2011
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                    Witaj Dan;

                    My family members who were also  forcibly deported to Siberia  were in the Ludowe Wojsko Polskie defending Poland.

                    OFF TOPIC
                    Polish Army in the East 1943-1945 / Ludowe Wojsko Polskie (LWP)

                    Perhaps you might find below links  interesting:
                    http://www.wspolnota-polska.org.pl/index.php?id=epb17

                    It came into being on 21 July 1944 through merging of the Polish Army in the USSR and the underground, communist People's Army (AL). It encompassed the 1st and 2nd Armies as well as the second echelons of the Supreme Command. In May 1945 it consisted of 14 infantry divisions, 4 air divisions, 4 artillery divisions, 1 cavalry brigade, 5 armoured brigades, 12 artillery brigades, 5 sappers' brigades and 2 reserve brigades
                    People's Army of Poland
                    The name Ludowe Wojsko Polskie (People's Troops of Poland) was unofficial but commonly used by communist propaganda, although in fact the official name of those formations were: Armia Polska w ZSRR (Polish Army in USSR) from 1943–1944, Wojsko Polskie (Polish Troops) and Siły Zbrojne Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej (Armed Forces of the Republic of Poland) from 1944–1952 and since 1952 Siły Zbrojne Polskiej Rzeczypospolitej Ludowej (Armed Forces of the People's Republic of Poland).
                    http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludowe_Wojsko_Polskie

                    Pozdrawiam Krystyna, Toronto
                    .



                     



                    --- On Fri, 5/6/11, Dan Ford <cub06h@...> wrote:

                    From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] deportee numbers
                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Friday, May 6, 2011, 8:04 AM

                     

                    On 5/6/2011 2:29 AM, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
                    > Please see Professor Piotr Eberhardt's article on the many, massive
                    > forced migrations in Poland circa 1939-1948, which details
                    > the deportations from Eastern Poland to Siberia starting on page 17;
                    >
                    > http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf

                    This seems to be a very valuable paper. Do you know any more about it or
                    Prof Eberhardt? I find that he is also the author of an earlier book
                    about population movements in Eastern Europe. (The price is north of $200!)

                    http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Population-Changes-Twentieth-Century-Central-Eastern/dp/0765606658/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_

                    Has the PDF been published anywhere, in English or Polish?

                    The website also is interesting: http://www.igipz.pan.pl/

                    Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

                  • Barbara Scrivens
                    Hi Peter, Great to have a discussion. Firstly, I’d like to know what you believe to be ‘harmful to the cause’. What ‘cause’? Secondly, if I am the
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 6, 2011
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                      Hi Peter,

                       

                      Great to have a discussion.

                       

                      Firstly, I’d like to know what you believe to be ‘harmful to the cause’. What ‘cause’?

                       

                      Secondly, if I am the cause of a debate, brilliant. I have been missing people on this forum who will challenge numbers. I am a statistical sceptic and an information scientist, so scepticism is in my blood – as well as the usual Polish stubbornness and inability to give up.

                       

                      I certainly did not say only 4% ‘returned to Poland’. I have no idea how many returned to Poland, and in the light of the communist regime in Poland until 1989, I doubt there is any way anyone can vouch for the validity of numbers of those who returned.  My numbers were about those Poles who managed to get out of Soviet Russia, out mainly through Persia. After the war the survivors had to accept that for them there was no Poland to return to.

                       

                      You call Piesakowski’s book ‘scholarly’. On what do you base that assumption? What are his credentials?

                       

                      If the above person’s book has ‘3,770,000 repatriated 1945-59’, then good. Most of them would have had to have been repatriated from 1951 to 1959. And here, I should have pointed out Jagna’s numbers ended in 1951. My apologies. I should have made that point. I hope you found and read her calculations, the basis for her film ‘A Forgotten Odyssey’ which this group promotes and which led me to accept her as a reputable source. She also took great pains to show where her calculations came from, which I appreciate.

                       

                      I’m not going to argue that suddenly, huge numbers of Poles may not have been repatriated after Stalin’s death in 1953. I don’t know. However – let me explain how I came to my numbers:  

                       

                      Gen Anders (page 116, An Army in Exile) calculated that between 1,5 and 1,6 million Poles were deported by the time he was assembling the Polish Army. My grandfathers joined in February 1942, so I’m taking the numbers were from September 1939 to then, although most would have been deported earlier. Taking 1,5-million, divided by the fewer than 115,000 who managed to escape with said Polish Army = 7.6%; with the 1.6-million figure it is 7.18%.

                       

                      Then we have our late member’s calculations: Jagna Wright’s numbers come to 1,700,000 Poles deported, which brings the percentage to 6.76%.

                       

                      Anders acknowledged his is a conservative figure which does not include military arrests or forced conscripts.                         Jagna got to her total of 1,692,000 by adding prisoners of war from the 1939 campaign (230,000), those interned after the 1939 campaign (12,000), those sent to labour camps (990,000), those condemned to prison (250,000) and those incorporated into the Red Army (210,000).

                       

                      At first I could not get my head around her further calculations. It took a while for it to sink in that Stalin continued his deportations after 1945. It shouldn’t have, as he still had the on-going need for labour and was not suddenly a rehabilitated human being after the Second World War.

                       

                      According to Jagna, from the spring of 1945 to the end of 1951, another 1,700,000 Polish citizens disappeared from a Poland still under the control of communist Russia, bringing her total to 3,392,000. She calculated those Poles who did not get out: Known deaths totalled 1,600,000. They included those who died of natural causes up till 1942 (413,000), officers murdered at Katyn (8,300), those who died from cold and exhaustion in labour camps and prisons (308,000), those murdered by their guards during the evacuation of prisons after the outbreak of the Russian-German War of 1941 (4,500), those who disappeared without a trace (113,500), League of Human and Civil Rights calculations of those who lost their lives from the spring of 1945 to the end of 1951 (750,000).

                       

                      Her number of only 8,300 for Katyn did not worry me as I have taken it that the balance of those officers would have come from the numbers then still listed as those who disappeared without a trace.

                       

                      Jagna calculated that as of 1951, the 1,631,500 Poles who did not die, never left Russia. They were dispersed around prison and labour camps. It was in Stalin’s best interests to keep as many labourers as he could and there are stories of the NKVD officers offering Poles better conditions and pay after the ‘amnesty’ which allowed the formation of the Polish Army. Gen Anders knew there was a moratorium on the opening of the borders and many simply did not manage to get across the border within the limited time. War or no war, the Soviet five-year-plan ground on.

                       

                      So – if you take the total of 3,392,000, and divide that by 115,000, you get 3.39%. There is a higher number for those who got out – 128,500. If you use that, you get 3.7%. That was the situation as of the end of 1951.

                       

                      Of course, as with anything using vast numbers, there will be dissention. Statistics can always be manipulated, that it their very nature. You take what you need, and use it. I feel I’ve gone round and round enough to have come to a conclusion that is as honest as I can find for now. I could have continued to add, which I did with the deportation trains, delete certain sections, use different time-lines, but in the end, I came to a conclusion which I can accept for now.

                       

                      If there is a flaw in my calculations, I’d appreciate your letting me know.

                       

                      Kind regards

                      Barbara

                      Auckland

                       

                       

                      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of petermuskus
                      Sent: Friday, 6 May 2011 7:41 p.m.
                      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: deportee numbers

                       

                       



                      Barbara

                      I strongly disagree with your figure of only 4% returning to Poland and believe such a low figure to be 'harmful to the cause'. I can only repeat what i read and put my trust in the scholarly book 'The fate of the Poles in the USSR 39-89' by T Piesakowski.

                      His conservative guesstimate is 1,500,000 deported up to 1948. Returns = 114,500 with Anders, 263,413 by agreement 44-45 and 35,000 with Kosciuszko Division. This is 28%, considerably more than 4%.

                      I feel that it is also wrong to say that 'after 1945 few, IF ANY, escaped'. Anita's family and my Babusia were 4, and Babusia was on a train carrying 800 in 1955! Page 300 of the above book has sources claiming 3,770,000 were repatriated 1945-59, though i expect many of these were from the Kresy.

                      Let's stick with conservative figures which still give an horrendous outcome.

                      Best wishes
                      Peter

                      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups..com, "Barbara Scrivens" <scrivs@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Peter and Anita,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I’ve taken the liberty of changing the subject line. Using the word help sometimes means the message comes from an insalubrious source and some members may not open it.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > About a month ago, I did some calculations on deportee numbers. If you look back at the posts for subject lines mentioning things like numbers, deportees, etc. you will find links. If you go to Stefan’s message of 30/03/2011 (New Zealand date, could be later for others) subject Re: Numbers on WWII deportations, you will find a link to the late Jagna Wright’s assessment. It’s in about the middle of that discussion.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I used Jagna’s and Gen Anders’ calculations and came to the conclusion that those deported from Poland to Siberia from 1939 to 1945 and who managed to escape with Anders numbered fewer than 7%. After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out. A sobering thought is that most of us on this forum can be considered a part of that statistic, both survivors and children and grandchildren of survivors.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As usual, I add my codicil that I am not a historian and my military knowledge is limited. I read a lot and suggest doing the same will give you an insight into the context in which this all occurred, starting with any book by a reputable historian such as Norman Davies. Browse the internet. You will be surprised what is out there.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Kind regards
                      >
                      > Barbara Scrivens
                      >

                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3608 - Release Date: 05/06/11 06:34:00

                    • Dan Ford
                      On the subject of repatriation: In the framework of the repatriation action 724,000 persons came to Poland in 1945, of whom 512,000 from the Ukrainian SSR,
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 6, 2011
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                        On the subject of repatriation:

                        In the framework of the repatriation action 724,000 persons came to
                        Poland in 1945, of whom
                        512,000 from the Ukrainian SSR, 136,000 from the Byelorussian SSR,
                        54,000 from the Lithuanian
                        SSR, and 22,000 from other Soviet republics. In the subsequent year,
                        1946, the flow of repatriates was
                        smaller, amounting to 644,000 persons, of whom 159,000 from the
                        Ukrainian SSR, likewise 136,000
                        from the Byelorussian SSR, 123,000 from the Lithuanian SSR, and 226,000
                        from other Soviet
                        republics. In the following years repatriation was marginal and
                        encompassed only individual persons.
                        Altogether, within the official framework of the repatriation action,
                        1,507,000 persons came to Poland
                        (see Table 10).

                        Table 10 specifies that the data are for the years 1944-1949. This
                        however is only the official repatriation effort. The study goes on to say:

                        According to K. Piesowicz (1988a,
                        p. 55) around 500,000 persons originating from the eastern borderlands
                        came to Poland outside of the
                        official repatriation action. S. Banasiak (1963, p. 151) performed a
                        more accurate calculation of the
                        number of repatriates. Thus, in his opinion the total number of
                        repatriates from the East amounted to
                        2,207,716 (Fig. 13). It can be judged that this precise calculation is
                        close to the actual numbers. The
                        population census carried out in 1950 reported 2,136,000 persons, whose
                        residence on September 1st,
                        1939, was located on the areas lost to the Soviet Union.

                        So: somewhere just above two million?

                        From PIOTR EBERHARDT: POLITICAL MIGRATIONS IN POLAND 1939-1948 (WARSAW
                        2006)

                        > http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf

                        page 44

                        Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
                      • Stefan (KS) Wisniowski
                        Hi Barbara Greetings to New Zealand from that island to your west! Without commenting on your statistics, I can confirm that our cause is to inspire, promote
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 6, 2011
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                          Hi Barbara

                          Greetings to New Zealand from that island to your west!

                          Without commenting on your statistics, I can confirm that our cause is to inspire, promote and support research, remembrance and recognition of Polish citizens’ struggles in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."

                          Also, when people say "repatriated" after 1945 they may be referring not only or maybe not at all to the Poles in the USSR but to the Polish residents moved from former eastern Poland ("Kresy") to the new territories in the west (eg, Wroclaw, Szczecin etc).  Meticulous records of these were kept by the former Panstwowy Urząd Repatriacyjny (National Repatriation Agency) so scholars could have obtained such statistics. 

                          Kind regards
                          Stefan Wisniowski
                          Sydney Australia

                          On 07/05/2011, at 7:39, "Barbara Scrivens" <scrivs@...> wrote:

                           

                          Hi Peter,

                          Great to have a discussion.

                          Firstly, I'd like to know what you believe to be 'harmful to the cause'. What cause?

                          Secondly, if I am the cause of a debate, brilliant. I have been missing people on this forum who will challenge numbers. I am a statistical sceptic and an information scientist, so scepticism is in my blood  as well as the usual Polish stubbornness and inability to give up.

                          I certainly did not say only 4% 'returned to Poland'. I have no idea how many returned to Poland, and in the light of the communist regime in Poland until 1989, I doubt there is any way anyone can vouch for the validity of numbers of those who returned.  My numbers were about those Poles who managed to get out of Soviet Russia, out mainly through Persia. After the war the survivors had to accept that for them there was no Poland to return to.

                          You call Piesakowski's book 'scholarly', On what do you base that assumption? What are his credentials?

                          If the above person's book has 3,770,000 repatriated 1945-59 then good. Most of them would have had to have been repatriated from 1951 to 1959. And here, I should have pointed out Jagna's numbers ended in 1951. My apologies. I should have made that point. I hope you found and read her calculations, the basis for her film A Forgotten Odyssey which this group promotes and which led me to accept her as a reputable source. She also took great pains to show where her calculations came from, which I appreciate.

                          I’m not going to argue that suddenly, huge numbers of Poles may not have been repatriated after Stalin’s death in 1953. I don’t know. However – let me explain how I came to my numbers: 

                          Gen Anders (page 116, An Army in Exile) calculated that between 1,5 and 1,6 million Poles were deported by the time he was assembling the Polish Army. My grandfathers joined in February 1942, so I’m taking the numbers were from September 1939 to then, although most would have been deported earlier. Taking 1,5-million, divided by the fewer than 115,000 who managed to escape with said Polish Army = 7.6%; with the 1.6-million figure it is 7.18%. 

                          Then we have our late member’s calculations: Jagna Wright’s numbers come to 1,700,000 Poles deported, which brings the percentage to 6.76%.

                          Anders acknowledged his is a conservative figure which does not include military arrests or forced conscripts.  Jagna got to her total of 1,692,000 by adding prisoners of war from the 1939 campaign (230,000), those interned after the 1939 campaign (12,000), those sent to labour camps (990,000), those condemned to prison (250,000) and those incorporated into the Red Army (210,000).

                          At first I could not get my head around her further calculations. It took a while for it to sink in that Stalin continued his deportations after 1945. It shouldn’t have, as he still had the on-going need for labour and was not suddenly a rehabilitated human being after the Second World War.

                          According to Jagna, from the spring of 1945 to the end of 1951, another 1,700,000 Polish citizens disappeared from a Poland still under the control of communist Russia, bringing her total to 3,392,000. She calculated those Poles who did not get out: Known deaths totalled 1,600,000. They included those who died of natural causes up till 1942 (413,000), officers murdered at Katyn (8,300), those who died from cold and exhaustion in labour camps and prisons (308,000), those murdered by their guards during the evacuation of prisons after the outbreak of the Russian-German War of 1941 (4,500), those who disappeared without a trace (113,500), League of Human and Civil Rights calculations of those who lost their lives from the spring of 1945 to the end of 1951 (750,000).

                          Her number of only 8,300 for Katyn did not worry me as I have taken it that the balance of those officers would have come from the numbers then still listed as those who disappeared without a trace.

                          Jagna calculated that as of 1951, the 1,631,500 Poles who did not die, never left Russia. They were dispersed around prison and labour camps. It was in Stalin’s best interests to keep as many labourers as he could and there are stories of the NKVD officers offering Poles better conditions and pay after the ‘amnesty’ which allowed the formation of the Polish Army. Gen Anders knew there was a moratorium on the opening of the borders and many simply did not manage to get across the border within the limited time. War or no war, the Soviet five-year-plan ground on.

                          So – if you take the total of 3,392,000, and divide that by 115,000, you get 3.39%. There is a higher number for those who got out – 128,500. If you use that, you get 3.7%. That was the situation as of the end of 1951.

                          Of course, as with anything using vast numbers, there will be dissention. Statistics can always be manipulated, that it their very nature. You take what you need, and use it. I feel I’ve gone round and round enough to have come to a conclusion that is as honest as I can find for now. I could have continued to add, which I did with the deportation trains, delete certain sections, use different time-lines, but in the end, I came to a conclusion which I can accept for now.

                          If there is a flaw in my calculations, I’d appreciate your letting me know.

                           Kind regards

                          Barbara

                          Auckland

                           

                           

                          From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of petermuskus
                          Sent: Friday, 6 May 2011 7:41 p.m.
                          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: deportee numbers

                           

                           



                          Barbara

                          I strongly disagree with your figure of only 4% returning to Poland and believe such a low figure to be 'harmful to the cause'. I can only repeat what i read and put my trust in the scholarly book 'The fate of the Poles in the USSR 39-89' by T Piesakowski.

                          His conservative guesstimate is 1,500,000 deported up to 1948. Returns = 114,500 with Anders, 263,413 by agreement 44-45 and 35,000 with Kosciuszko Division. This is 28%, considerably more than 4%.

                          I feel that it is also wrong to say that 'after 1945 few, IF ANY, escaped'. Anita's family and my Babusia were 4, and Babusia was on a train carrying 800 in 1955! Page 300 of the above book has sources claiming 3,770,000 were repatriated 1945-59, though i expect many of these were from the Kresy.

                          Let's stick with conservative figures which still give an horrendous outcome.

                          Best wishes
                          Peter

                          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups..com, "Barbara Scrivens" <scrivs@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Peter and Anita,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I’ve taken the liberty of changing the subject line. Using the word help sometimes means the message comes from an insalubrious source and some members may not open it.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > About a month ago, I did some calculations on deportee numbers. If you look back at the posts for subject lines mentioning things like numbers, deportees, etc. you will find links. If you go to Stefan’s message of 30/03/2011 (New Zealand date, could be later for others) subject Re: Numbers on WWII deportations, you will find a link to the late Jagna Wright’s assessment. It’s in about the middle of that discussion.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I used Jagna’s and Gen Anders’ calculations and came to the conclusion that those deported from Poland to Siberia from 1939 to 1945 and who managed to escape with Anders numbered fewer than 7%. After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out. A sobering thought is that most of us on this forum can be considered a part of that statistic, both survivors and children and grandchildren of survivors.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > As usual, I add my codicil that I am not a historian and my military knowledge is limited. I read a lot and suggest doing the same will give you an insight into the context in which this all occurred, starting with any book by a reputable historian such as Norman Davies. Browse the internet. You will be surprised what is out there.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Kind regards
                          >
                          > Barbara Scrivens
                          >

                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3608 - Release Date: 05/06/11 06:34:00

                        • petermuskus
                          Yes, Barbara, it s good to discuss, but i ve got myself deeper than intended just because i thought that Anita s 10% was on the low side! Whether her parents
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 7, 2011
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                            Yes, Barbara, it's good to discuss, but i've got myself deeper than intended just because i thought that Anita's 10% was on the low side! Whether her parents decided to stay, didn't know of the amnesty or were forced to stay worked for them at a time when happy endings were scarce. I am not looking for exact figures, but a range that is likely to encompass the correct answer. I will try and answer your points.

                            The cause to me is publicizing the truth about what happened to the Poles from the Kresy (in particular) and all those dominated by the Soviets.

                            I could only comment on what you wrote and not on what you think! (After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped. Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out.) I am happy that you meant something different.

                            I call Piesakowski's book scholarly because of the hundreds of references listed (including the Polish edition of The Long Bridge by Muskus!), and comparisons of numbers from different sources.

                            I must now extract myself and go back to the lambs and calves.

                            Best wishes
                            Peter.

                            --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara Scrivens" <scrivs@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Peter,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Great to have a discussion.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Firstly, I’d like to know what you believe to be ‘harmful to the cause’. What ‘cause’?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Secondly, if I am the cause of a debate, brilliant. I have been missing people on this forum who will challenge numbers. I am a statistical sceptic and an information scientist, so scepticism is in my blood â€" as well as the usual Polish stubbornness and inability to give up.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I certainly did not say only 4% ‘returned to Poland’. I have no idea how many returned to Poland, and in the light of the communist regime in Poland until 1989, I doubt there is any way anyone can vouch for the validity of numbers of those who returned. My numbers were about those Poles who managed to get out of Soviet Russia, out mainly through Persia. After the war the survivors had to accept that for them there was no Poland to return to.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > You call Piesakowski’s book ‘scholarly’. On what do you base that assumption? What are his credentials?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > If the above person’s book has ‘3,770,000 repatriated 1945-59’, then good. Most of them would have had to have been repatriated from 1951 to 1959. And here, I should have pointed out Jagna’s numbers ended in 1951. My apologies. I should have made that point. I hope you found and read her calculations, the basis for her film ‘A Forgotten Odyssey’ which this group promotes and which led me to accept her as a reputable source. She also took great pains to show where her calculations came from, which I appreciate.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I’m not going to argue that suddenly, huge numbers of Poles may not have been repatriated after Stalin’s death in 1953. I don’t know. However â€" let me explain how I came to my numbers:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Gen Anders (page 116, An Army in Exile) calculated that between 1,5 and 1,6 million Poles were deported by the time he was assembling the Polish Army. My grandfathers joined in February 1942, so I’m taking the numbers were from September 1939 to then, although most would have been deported earlier. Taking 1,5-million, divided by the fewer than 115,000 who managed to escape with said Polish Army = 7.6%; with the 1.6-million figure it is 7.18%.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Then we have our late member’s calculations: Jagna Wright’s numbers come to 1,700,000 Poles deported, which brings the percentage to 6.76%.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Anders acknowledged his is a conservative figure which does not include military arrests or forced conscripts. Jagna got to her total of 1,692,000 by adding prisoners of war from the 1939 campaign (230,000), those interned after the 1939 campaign (12,000), those sent to labour camps (990,000), those condemned to prison (250,000) and those incorporated into the Red Army (210,000).
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > At first I could not get my head around her further calculations. It took a while for it to sink in that Stalin continued his deportations after 1945. It shouldn’t have, as he still had the on-going need for labour and was not suddenly a rehabilitated human being after the Second World War.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > According to Jagna, from the spring of 1945 to the end of 1951, another 1,700,000 Polish citizens disappeared from a Poland still under the control of communist Russia, bringing her total to 3,392,000. She calculated those Poles who did not get out: Known deaths totalled 1,600,000. They included those who died of natural causes up till 1942 (413,000), officers murdered at Katyn (8,300), those who died from cold and exhaustion in labour camps and prisons (308,000), those murdered by their guards during the evacuation of prisons after the outbreak of the Russian-German War of 1941 (4,500), those who disappeared without a trace (113,500), League of Human and Civil Rights calculations of those who lost their lives from the spring of 1945 to the end of 1951 (750,000).
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Her number of only 8,300 for Katyn did not worry me as I have taken it that the balance of those officers would have come from the numbers then still listed as those who disappeared without a trace.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Jagna calculated that as of 1951, the 1,631,500 Poles who did not die, never left Russia. They were dispersed around prison and labour camps. It was in Stalin’s best interests to keep as many labourers as he could and there are stories of the NKVD officers offering Poles better conditions and pay after the ‘amnesty’ which allowed the formation of the Polish Army. Gen Anders knew there was a moratorium on the opening of the borders and many simply did not manage to get across the border within the limited time. War or no war, the Soviet five-year-plan ground on.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > So â€" if you take the total of 3,392,000, and divide that by 115,000, you get 3.39%. There is a higher number for those who got out â€" 128,500. If you use that, you get 3.7%. That was the situation as of the end of 1951.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Of course, as with anything using vast numbers, there will be dissention. Statistics can always be manipulated, that it their very nature. You take what you need, and use it. I feel I’ve gone round and round enough to have come to a conclusion that is as honest as I can find for now. I could have continued to add, which I did with the deportation trains, delete certain sections, use different time-lines, but in the end, I came to a conclusion which I can accept for now.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > If there is a flaw in my calculations, I’d appreciate your letting me know.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Kind regards
                            >
                            > Barbara
                            >
                            > Auckland
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of petermuskus
                            > Sent: Friday, 6 May 2011 7:41 p.m.
                            > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: deportee numbers
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Barbara
                            >
                            > I strongly disagree with your figure of only 4% returning to Poland and believe such a low figure to be 'harmful to the cause'. I can only repeat what i read and put my trust in the scholarly book 'The fate of the Poles in the USSR 39-89' by T Piesakowski.
                            >
                            > His conservative guesstimate is 1,500,000 deported up to 1948. Returns = 114,500 with Anders, 263,413 by agreement 44-45 and 35,000 with Kosciuszko Division. This is 28%, considerably more than 4%.
                            >
                            > I feel that it is also wrong to say that 'after 1945 few, IF ANY, escaped'. Anita's family and my Babusia were 4, and Babusia was on a train carrying 800 in 1955! Page 300 of the above book has sources claiming 3,770,000 were repatriated 1945-59, though i expect many of these were from the Kresy.
                            >
                            > Let's stick with conservative figures which still give an horrendous outcome.
                            >
                            > Best wishes
                            > Peter
                            >
                            > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> , "Barbara Scrivens" <scrivs@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Peter and Anita,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I’ve taken the liberty of changing the subject line. Using the word help sometimes means the message comes from an insalubrious source and some members may not open it.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > About a month ago, I did some calculations on deportee numbers. If you look back at the posts for subject lines mentioning things like numbers, deportees, etc. you will find links. If you go to Stefan’s message of 30/03/2011 (New Zealand date, could be later for others) subject Re: Numbers on WWII deportations, you will find a link to the late Jagna Wright’s assessment. It’s in about the middle of that discussion.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I used Jagna’s and Gen Anders’ calculations and came to the conclusion that those deported from Poland to Siberia from 1939 to 1945 and who managed to escape with Anders numbered fewer than 7%. After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out. A sobering thought is that most of us on this forum can be considered a part of that statistic, both survivors and children and grandchildren of survivors.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > As usual, I add my codicil that I am not a historian and my military knowledge is limited. I read a lot and suggest doing the same will give you an insight into the context in which this all occurred, starting with any book by a reputable historian such as Norman Davies. Browse the internet. You will be surprised what is out there.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Kind regards
                            > >
                            > > Barbara Scrivens
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3608 - Release Date: 05/06/11 06:34:00
                            >
                          • Barbara Scrivens
                            Dear Peter, Oh dear, I hope I haven’t scared you. And I really hope you don’t linger long among the lambs and calves – they are really popular here in
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 8, 2011
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                              Dear Peter,

                               

                              Oh dear, I hope I haven’t scared you. And I really hope you don’t linger long among the lambs and calves – they are really popular here in New Zealand! I do apologise for coming across slightly tetchy, but I was wondering what I had done to be harmful to the cause. Being harmful is not in my make-up.  

                               

                              When I first joined this group, it was not for publicizing the truth about what happened to the kresy Poles. How could it have been when I did not even know of the word kresy? I could have summarised what I knew of my family’s history in three sentences. However, as I have accumulated knowledge, I have become more vocal. My main focus, and judging by the posts, most others, is to find out about my own sliver of the story. Suddenly, I found out where my roots lie, and it’s been such a journey gathering them. A solid foundation from which to jump is always helpful.

                               

                              I have a habit of red-flagging posts I feel I may want to refer to and I’ve noted several of yours are red. Thank you for your part in my education.

                               

                              Have a great Sunday - Barbara

                               

                               

                               

                               

                              From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of petermuskus
                              Sent: Sunday, 8 May 2011 5:03 a.m.
                              To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: deportee numbers

                               

                               

                              Yes, Barbara, it's good to discuss, but i've got myself deeper than intended just because i thought that Anita's 10% was on the low side! Whether her parents decided to stay, didn't know of the amnesty or were forced to stay worked for them at a time when happy endings were scarce. I am not looking for exact figures, but a range that is likely to encompass the correct answer. I will try and answer your points.

                              The cause to me is publicizing the truth about what happened to the Poles from the Kresy (in particular) and all those dominated by the Soviets.

                              I could only comment on what you wrote and not on what you think! (After 1945, deportations were still taking place, and few, if any, escaped. Adding both groups together, fewer than 4% of total Poles deported, made it out.) I am happy that you meant something different.

                              I call Piesakowski's book scholarly because of the hundreds of references listed (including the Polish edition of The Long Bridge by Muskus!), and comparisons of numbers from different sources.

                              I must now extract myself and go back to the lambs and calves.

                              Best wishes
                              Peter.


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