- Hi Bozena Do you know for sure that you left from Antonowka Station? Wasn’t your osada south-east of Sarny? If you look at the train mapMessage 1 of 76 , Mar 1 7:47 AMView SourceHi Bozena
Do you know for sure that you left from Antonowka Station?
Wasn’t your osada south-east of Sarny? If you look at the train map
Antonowka is on the other side of Sarny, other stations would have been closer.
Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
Names: Maczka. Gradosielski.
Kresy: Osada Krechowiecka. Wilno.
Siberia: Monastyriok. Siewzeldorlag, Komi.
Army: Pestki 316 Transport. Sappers 5KDP.
From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Antoni Kazimierski
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 4:19 PM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re:Deportation trains
It is extremely difficult to unravel some things which happened so long ago.
Yes, we all looked at various routes the trains took and it is sad that Karta were not able to publish such routes, because I believe, there are no precise records at Memorial from the Soviet Railway Archives; secondly they were not deemed to be all that important and searching for them would be costly.
You were nowhere near Morzenga, I do not think. Perhaps you might look at other possibility in that you actually arrived at Ponazyriovo and then were loaded on to a sleigh for just a few days journey to Dorovatka.
* consider train no 76 -Zdolbunov to Ponazyriovo.
It is possible part of your train from Antonowka (Sarny) joined that train and travelled with it.
* consider that the Morzenga train with about 1300 persons only might have been split at Danilovo (major junction)so that some went to Morzenga (on Moscov to Archangelsk line) and the rest to Ponazyriovo.
Unless there are records of someone noting the stations where the train stopped there is no way of knowing what had happened. Elzunia's Mom recorded their stations, but most of us did not.
Our train was split at Velsk although on the list it was named as a train to V. SINIEGA
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- Thanks Tim, Dr Guryanov said as much; and as I recall reading that there might be some documents held in various post-NKVD Archives, but may not beMessage 76 of 76 , Dec 16, 2013View SourceThanks Tim,
Dr Guryanov said as much; and as I recall reading that there might be some documents held in various post-NKVD Archives, but may not be available/released or found in our lifetime; and some of the Republics/oblastiey have not released documentation which might give present-day researchers any leads;the Memorial to this day seek the answers, but nothing is forthcoming as yet;often they are 'prevented' by the present-day authorities from delving too deeply; so there we have have it.
antoni530 in UK.
--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Tim Bucknall <tim.bucknall@...> wrote:
> thanks for this very important clarification Antoni.
> the circle is squared,
> theres a world of difference between saying " 320,000 were deported"
> and saying "we have documentation of 320,000 deportees but we'll never
> know the full number because documents no longer exist"
> On 15/12/2013, Antoni Kazimierski <askazimierski@...> wrote:
> > I just woke up to the fact that there is a continuous discussion about
> > trains and numbers deported .
> > I wholeheartedly believe that the only sensible research and findings were
> > carried out by Memorial under the direction of Dr A Guryanov, who obtained
> > loading figures from the railway authorities. Not all materials were
> > available as a great deal was lost during the war.
> > There are no records of actual 'loading of persons per wagon, but there are
> > totals for majority of trains especially into the Northern Territories of
> > the Soviet Union. As I can see the greatest number of persons was a train
> > from Postawy to Belchasz in Almacka obl. with 2127 persons, followed by one
> > from Szczuczyn to Akmolinsk with 2090 persons. Our train from Pogorzelce to
> > Vielsk contained 1597 persons with train length of 36 trucks; but some were
> > not occupied by deportees; just bogies;as I recall there were 52 persons or
> > 12 families with us. Some trucks were loaded with just 8 families, but
> > probably larger numbers per family. I understand the loading was with the
> > number of families together and not split up so that they would go to one
> > posiolek together. The Guards had accommodation within the train with some
> > provisions and sleeping/resting facilities as they stayed with us all the
> > way.I believe our train was partly 'uncoupled ' at Vologda, but cannot be
> > sure to what extent as 450 or so of us arrived at Jeglec in Rowdinskij
> > rajon.
> > It is not possible, in my view, to apply 'statistical analysis as such' to
> > calculate totals using the highest numbers only; for that reason Memorial
> > never declared any totals, as I am aware.
> > Naturally, Guryanov list applies to cyvilian deportations handed to Memorial
> > by the Parovoz? organization and not to the transportation of prisoners of
> > war.
> > There were also some 'smaller trains' which were part of other transports as
> > obviously numbers of deportees in low hundreds were not sent in trains on
> > their own, but wagons were attached to other trains, even with commercial
> > traffic.
> > antoni530 in UK
> Tim Bucknall
> Congleton, UK
> #KresySiberia, Many thanks for your votes, results on 19/12