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Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map

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  • b_styrna
    Dobry Dzien, I just uploaded a map of my mom s 1940 deportation to Siberia-Russia, escape attempt, travels, wandering etc. throughout Siberia. It is overlaid
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 17, 2009
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      Dobry Dzien,

      I just uploaded a map of my mom's 1940 deportation to Siberia-Russia, escape attempt, travels, wandering etc. throughout Siberia. It is overlaid on top of an old WWII Russian railroad map.

      http://gallery.kresy-siberia.org/ZbyszekStyrna?page=1


      Pozdrawiam

      Zbigniew
      Kanada
    • Antoni Kazimierski
      Zbyszek, What an interesting collection of maps and pictures. Regarding 8/20 photo. The camp Harcerski was at SARAFAND ; I recollect it as I had a chance to go
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 18, 2009
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        Zbyszek,
        What an interesting collection of maps and pictures.

        Regarding 8/20 photo. The camp Harcerski was at SARAFAND ; I recollect it as I had a chance to go there, but I chose to go to Obuz Libanu in Lebanon near Baalbeck.
        Saradnad or Saralnad are not real names in my view.
        You can discover its location on the Palestine map I sent you - it is just by Lydda and South of Jaffa.
        antoni530

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • andrean_p
        ... Hello Zbyszek, the print in your album showing the deportation to Siberia before the WWI, is by Artur Grottger (it is marked in the corner) and depicts the
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 18, 2009
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          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "b_styrna" <styrna@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dobry Dzien,
          >
          > I just uploaded a map of my mom's 1940 deportation to Siberia-Russia, escape attempt, travels, wandering etc. throughout Siberia. It is overlaid on top of an old WWII Russian railroad map.
          >
          > http://gallery.kresy-siberia.org/ZbyszekStyrna?page=1
          >
          >
          > Pozdrawiam
          >
          > Zbigniew
          > Kanada
          >

          Hello Zbyszek,

          the print in your album showing the deportation to Siberia before the WWI, is by Artur Grottger (it is marked in the corner) and depicts the deportation after the National Uprising of 1863. Most likely it belongs to his series "War" (1867).

          Deportations of that time started some years before the uprising. Joseph Conrad's father Apollo Korzeniowski has been deported in such way and his wife, writers's mother Ewelina decided to join him. Despite the fact that his sentence has been commuted and he was finally sent to inner Russia instead of Siberia, they both died young as a result of diseases contracted there.
          The print is hand colored, which was the usual practice throughout 18th and 19th c. with black and white prints.

          Kind regards,
          Piotr
        • b_styrna
          Piotr, dziekuje bardzo. Thank you for the information on this print. Piotr, you got me inspired to look further. I actually own/bought two such
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 18, 2009
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            Piotr,

            dziekuje bardzo. Thank you for the information on this print. Piotr, you got me inspired to look further.

            I actually own/bought two such prints/postcards. This colored one and one B & W with a paper frame around it which has written " Wieczory Zimowe ser. I " translated it means "Winter Evenings series I .

            It was printed in Lwow by S. W. Niemojowski. Since Lwow was not under Russian control, but Austro-Hungarian, I presume it was "OK" to print such things without fear of deportations to Siberia ?

            These are postcards so I presume many of them were mailed around the country/world advertising Russian's hospitality.

            Oddly enough, one postcard says " Pochod na Sybir " and the other one says "Pochod na Syberia . " where the extra letter 'a' has an accent.

            The prints show many Polish prisoners shivering while several Russian foot soldiers with rifles with bayonets stand guard. Also a commandant on horseback barks out orders. All the while two crazy barking, wolf like dogs, are snarling at the nearly frozen foot prisoners. One has fallen over from exhaustion.

            Thanks again

            Zbigniew
            bbbrrrr ... from snow free Vancouver

            > >
            > > http://gallery.kresy-siberia.org/ZbyszekStyrna?page=1
            > >
            > >
            > > Pozdrawiam
            > >
            > > Zbigniew
            > > Kanada
            > >
            >
            > Hello Zbyszek,
            >
            > the print in your album showing the deportation to Siberia before the WWI, is by Artur Grottger (it is marked in the corner) and depicts the deportation after the National Uprising of 1863. Most likely it belongs to his series "War" (1867).
            >
            > Deportations of that time started some years before the uprising. Joseph Conrad's father Apollo Korzeniowski has been deported in such way and his wife, writers's mother Ewelina decided to join him. Despite the fact that his sentence has been commuted and he was finally sent to inner Russia instead of Siberia, they both died young as a result of diseases contracted there.
            > The print is hand colored, which was the usual practice throughout 18th and 19th c. with black and white prints.
            >
            > Kind regards,
            > Piotr
            >
          • b_styrna
            Antoni, as usual you are full of wonderful information. Thanks for clarifying these photos as my uncle Wiktor Pawelek has long passed away and can t help
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 18, 2009
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              Antoni,
              as usual you are full of wonderful information. Thanks for clarifying these photos as my uncle Wiktor Pawelek has long passed away and can't help identify these.

              I have updated the caption in my gallery.

              By "interesting" I hope you enjoyed and were entertained by them ? :)


              Saradnad or Saralnad has puzzled me also. Maybe it's a Polish word ?

              Kindest regards


              Zbigniew



              --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Antoni Kazimierski" <ASKAZIMIERSKI@...> wrote:
              >
              > Zbyszek,
              > What an interesting collection of maps and pictures.
              >
              > Regarding 8/20 photo. The camp Harcerski was at SARAFAND ; I recollect it as I had a chance to go there, but I chose to go to Obuz Libanu in Lebanon near Baalbeck.
              > Saradnad or Saralnad are not real names in my view.
              > You can discover its location on the Palestine map I sent you - it is just by Lydda and South of Jaffa.
              > antoni530
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Antoni Kazimierski
              Zbyszek, Yes, I was particularly impressed by the Gulag Map you have and I wish to have had a copy of such a document. It lists Gulags and not Posiolki as
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 22, 2009
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                Zbyszek,
                Yes, I was particularly impressed by the Gulag Map you have and I wish to have had a copy of such a document.
                It lists Gulags and not Posiolki as such; both have their relevant meanings.
                Karta and Memorial, in their wisdom, separate them to denote different types of imprisonment of the deported people; not necessarily Poles alone.
                Gulags were 'corrective' camps for all sorts of people, but mainly single people (there were exceptions , I must admit, but with reasons) whereas most of Polish families we talk about in our group were not actually in Gulag environment ;where camps were guarded and severe regime applied.
                Families, as opposed to 'court sentenced people' or ex-military or police, were deported to posiolki or specposiolki in a somewhat freeyer environment, although hard for many and tough for others.
                According to Karta and Memorial lists both families of Tymrakiewicz and Kolodziej were in posiolki camps in Vizyay (Kudymkar) and Permogorie camp 108 near Kotlas in Archangelskaja oblast.
                I just wonder how do you view the situation these two families found themselves in those Taiga forests? Gulag versus Posiolek.
                Were Memorial and Karta correct in naming them the way did?.

                This brings me to the comparison of the two maps of deportations in the KS Gallery; and I have this little observation: the Gulag map does not show the camps as shown on the second map; or atleast I cannot find them.

                Regarding your father's family Styrna I presume?
                You say they were in Lopan near Yurla.
                The rajon is Yurlinskyy in Komi-Permyak oblast.
                The Lopan name seems to be derived from Lopva river. There does not appear to be a posiolek there anymore - none on the maps I have; but I'll keep looking for it.
                Yurla is rather an interseting place and modern in presnt day standards, but a great deal is dependant on the forestry work, fishing and a small amount of agriculture.
                antoni530


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Krystyna Styrna
                Witaj Zbysiu and Antoni; googling Posiolki w Taidze I  came across some drawings from a book Stalins Ethnic Cleansing   which might be of interest to
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 27, 2009
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                  Witaj Zbysiu and Antoni;
                  googling Posiolki w Taidze I  came across some drawings from a book "Stalins Ethnic Cleansing"  which might be of interest to others on this forum.
                    http://www.stalinsethniccleansing.com/content/gallery.htm
                   
                  Pozdrawiam bardzo serdecznie Krystyna Styrna

                  --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@...> wrote:


                  From: Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@...>
                  Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map
                  To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:03 AM






                  Zbyszek,
                  Yes, I was particularly impressed by the Gulag Map you have and I wish to have had a copy of such a document.
                  It lists Gulags and not Posiolki as such; both have their relevant meanings.
                  Karta and Memorial, in their wisdom, separate them to denote different types of imprisonment of the deported people; not necessarily Poles alone.
                  Gulags were 'corrective' camps for all sorts of people, but mainly single people (there were exceptions , I must admit, but with reasons) whereas most of Polish families we talk about in our group were not actually in Gulag environment ;where camps were guarded and severe regime applied.
                  Families, as opposed to 'court sentenced people' or ex-military or police, were deported to posiolki or specposiolki in a somewhat freeyer environment, although hard for many and tough for others.
                  According to Karta and Memorial lists both families of Tymrakiewicz and Kolodziej were in posiolki camps in Vizyay (Kudymkar) and Permogorie camp 108 near Kotlas in Archangelskaja oblast.
                  I just wonder how do you view the situation these two families found themselves in those Taiga forests? Gulag versus Posiolek.
                  Were Memorial and Karta correct in naming them the way did?.

                  This brings me to the comparison of the two maps of deportations in the KS Gallery; and I have this little observation: the Gulag map does not show the camps as shown on the second map; or atleast I cannot find them.

                  Regarding your father's family Styrna I presume?
                  You say they were in Lopan near Yurla.
                  The rajon is Yurlinskyy in Komi-Permyak oblast.
                  The Lopan name seems to be derived from Lopva river. There does not appear to be a posiolek there anymore - none on the maps I have; but I'll keep looking for it.
                  Yurla is rather an interseting place and modern in presnt day standards, but a great deal is dependant on the forestry work, fishing and a small amount of agriculture.
                  antoni530

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















                  __________________________________________________________________
                  Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Elizabeth Olsson
                  These drawings and several others are already on the Gallery. pozdrowienia Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson Sweden _____ From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 27, 2009
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                    These drawings and several others are already on the Gallery.



                    pozdrowienia
                    Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
                    Sweden



                    _____

                    From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Krystyna Styrna
                    Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:26 PM
                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map



                    Witaj Zbysiu and Antoni;
                    googling Posiolki w Taidze I came across some drawings from a book "Stalins Ethnic Cleansing" which might be of interest to others on this forum.
                    http://www.stalinse <http://www.stalinsethniccleansing.com/content/gallery.htm> thniccleansing.com/content/gallery.htm

                    Pozdrawiam bardzo serdecznie Krystyna Styrna

                    --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@ <mailto:ASKAZIMIERSKI%40talktalk.net> talktalk.net> wrote:

                    From: Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@ <mailto:ASKAZIMIERSKI%40talktalk.net> talktalk.net>
                    Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map
                    To: Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:03 AM

                    Zbyszek,
                    Yes, I was particularly impressed by the Gulag Map you have and I wish to have had a copy of such a document.
                    It lists Gulags and not Posiolki as such; both have their relevant meanings.
                    Karta and Memorial, in their wisdom, separate them to denote different types of imprisonment of the deported people; not necessarily Poles alone.
                    Gulags were 'corrective' camps for all sorts of people, but mainly single people (there were exceptions , I must admit, but with reasons) whereas most of Polish families we talk about in our group were not actually in Gulag environment ;where camps were guarded and severe regime applied.
                    Families, as opposed to 'court sentenced people' or ex-military or police, were deported to posiolki or specposiolki in a somewhat freeyer environment, although hard for many and tough for others.
                    According to Karta and Memorial lists both families of Tymrakiewicz and Kolodziej were in posiolki camps in Vizyay (Kudymkar) and Permogorie camp 108 near Kotlas in Archangelskaja oblast.
                    I just wonder how do you view the situation these two families found themselves in those Taiga forests? Gulag versus Posiolek.
                    Were Memorial and Karta correct in naming them the way did?.

                    This brings me to the comparison of the two maps of deportations in the KS Gallery; and I have this little observation: the Gulag map does not show the camps as shown on the second map; or atleast I cannot find them.

                    Regarding your father's family Styrna I presume?
                    You say they were in Lopan near Yurla.
                    The rajon is Yurlinskyy in Komi-Permyak oblast.
                    The Lopan name seems to be derived from Lopva river. There does not appear to be a posiolek there anymore - none on the maps I have; but I'll keep looking for it.
                    Yurla is rather an interseting place and modern in presnt day standards, but a great deal is dependant on the forestry work, fishing and a small amount of agriculture.
                    antoni530

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    __________________________________________________________
                    Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now
                    http://ca.toolbar <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com> yahoo.com.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Elizabeth Olsson
                    http://gallery.kresy-siberia.org/Sobierajski The illustrations were drawn by Telesfor Sobierajski and the texts are taken from his own story, one of many
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 27, 2009
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                      http://gallery.kresy-siberia.org/Sobierajski

                      The illustrations were drawn by Telesfor Sobierajski and the texts are taken from his own story, one of many included in "Stalin's Ethnic Cleansing".



                      pozdrowienia
                      Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
                      Sweden



                      _____

                      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Olsson
                      Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 11:03 PM
                      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map



                      These drawings and several others are already on the Gallery.

                      pozdrowienia
                      Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
                      Sweden

                      _____

                      From: Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Krystyna Styrna
                      Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:26 PM
                      To: Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map

                      Witaj Zbysiu and Antoni;
                      googling Posiolki w Taidze I came across some drawings from a book "Stalins Ethnic Cleansing" which might be of interest to others on this forum.
                      http://www.stalinse <http://www.stalinse <http://www.stalinsethniccleansing.com/content/gallery.htm> thniccleansing.com/content/gallery.htm> thniccleansing.com/content/gallery.htm

                      Pozdrawiam bardzo serdecznie Krystyna Styrna

                      --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@ <mailto:ASKAZIMIERSKI%40talktalk.net> talktalk.net> wrote:

                      From: Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@ <mailto:ASKAZIMIERSKI%40talktalk.net> talktalk.net>
                      Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map
                      To: Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:03 AM

                      Zbyszek,
                      Yes, I was particularly impressed by the Gulag Map you have and I wish to have had a copy of such a document.
                      It lists Gulags and not Posiolki as such; both have their relevant meanings.
                      Karta and Memorial, in their wisdom, separate them to denote different types of imprisonment of the deported people; not necessarily Poles alone.
                      Gulags were 'corrective' camps for all sorts of people, but mainly single people (there were exceptions , I must admit, but with reasons) whereas most of Polish families we talk about in our group were not actually in Gulag environment ;where camps were guarded and severe regime applied.
                      Families, as opposed to 'court sentenced people' or ex-military or police, were deported to posiolki or specposiolki in a somewhat freeyer environment, although hard for many and tough for others.
                      According to Karta and Memorial lists both families of Tymrakiewicz and Kolodziej were in posiolki camps in Vizyay (Kudymkar) and Permogorie camp 108 near Kotlas in Archangelskaja oblast.
                      I just wonder how do you view the situation these two families found themselves in those Taiga forests? Gulag versus Posiolek.
                      Were Memorial and Karta correct in naming them the way did?.

                      This brings me to the comparison of the two maps of deportations in the KS Gallery; and I have this little observation: the Gulag map does not show the camps as shown on the second map; or atleast I cannot find them.

                      Regarding your father's family Styrna I presume?
                      You say they were in Lopan near Yurla.
                      The rajon is Yurlinskyy in Komi-Permyak oblast.
                      The Lopan name seems to be derived from Lopva river. There does not appear to be a posiolek there anymore - none on the maps I have; but I'll keep looking for it.
                      Yurla is rather an interseting place and modern in presnt day standards, but a great deal is dependant on the forestry work, fishing and a small amount of agriculture.
                      antoni530

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      __________________________________________________________
                      Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now
                      http://ca.toolbar <http://ca.toolbar <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com> yahoo.com.> yahoo.com.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Krystyna Styrna
                      Hi Elzuniu that is true I had hoped  that my post would also direct to the artist name  and the name of the book. Thank you for pointing it out in a more
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 27, 2009
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                        Hi Elzuniu that is true I had hoped  that my post would also direct to the artist name  and the name of the book.
                        Thank you for pointing it out in a more direct way.

                        Pozdrawiam bardzo serdecznie Krystyna Styrna

                        --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...> wrote:


                        From: Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...>
                        Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] The illustrations by Telesfor Sobierajski
                        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Friday, March 27, 2009, 3:47 PM






                        http://gallery. kresy-siberia. org/Sobierajski

                        The illustrations were drawn by Telesfor Sobierajski and the texts are taken from his own story, one of many included in "Stalin's Ethnic Cleansing".

                        pozdrowienia
                        Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
                        Sweden

                        _____

                        From: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Olsson
                        Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 11:03 PM
                        To: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map

                        These drawings and several others are already on the Gallery.

                        pozdrowienia
                        Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
                        Sweden

                        _____

                        From: Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy- Siberia%40yahoog roups.com> yahoogroups. com [mailto:Kresy- Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy- Siberia%40yahoog roups.com> yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Krystyna Styrna
                        Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:26 PM
                        To: Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy- Siberia%40yahoog roups.com> yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map

                        Witaj Zbysiu and Antoni;
                        googling Posiolki w Taidze I came across some drawings from a book "Stalins Ethnic Cleansing" which might be of interest to others on this forum.
                        http://www.stalinse <http://www.stalinse <http://www.stalinse thniccleansing. com/content/ gallery.htm> thniccleansing. com/content/ gallery.htm> thniccleansing. com/content/ gallery.htm

                        Pozdrawiam bardzo serdecznie Krystyna Styrna

                        --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@ <mailto:ASKAZIMIERS KI%40talktalk. net> talktalk.net> wrote:

                        From: Antoni Kazimierski <ASKAZIMIERSKI@ <mailto:ASKAZIMIERS KI%40talktalk. net> talktalk.net>
                        Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Domicela Kolodziej Deportation Map
                        To: Kresy-Siberia@ <mailto:Kresy- Siberia%40yahoog roups.com> yahoogroups. com
                        Received: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:03 AM

                        Zbyszek,
                        Yes, I was particularly impressed by the Gulag Map you have and I wish to have had a copy of such a document.
                        It lists Gulags and not Posiolki as such; both have their relevant meanings.
                        Karta and Memorial, in their wisdom, separate them to denote different types of imprisonment of the deported people; not necessarily Poles alone.
                        Gulags were 'corrective' camps for all sorts of people, but mainly single people (there were exceptions , I must admit, but with reasons) whereas most of Polish families we talk about in our group were not actually in Gulag environment ;where camps were guarded and severe regime applied.
                        Families, as opposed to 'court sentenced people' or ex-military or police, were deported to posiolki or specposiolki in a somewhat freeyer environment, although hard for many and tough for others.
                        According to Karta and Memorial lists both families of Tymrakiewicz and Kolodziej were in posiolki camps in Vizyay (Kudymkar) and Permogorie camp 108 near Kotlas in Archangelskaja oblast.
                        I just wonder how do you view the situation these two families found themselves in those Taiga forests? Gulag versus Posiolek.
                        Were Memorial and Karta correct in naming them the way did?.

                        This brings me to the comparison of the two maps of deportations in the KS Gallery; and I have this little observation: the Gulag map does not show the camps as shown on the second map; or atleast I cannot find them.

                        Regarding your father's family Styrna I presume?
                        You say they were in Lopan near Yurla.
                        The rajon is Yurlinskyy in Komi-Permyak oblast.
                        The Lopan name seems to be derived from Lopva river. There does not appear to be a posiolek there anymore - none on the maps I have; but I'll keep looking for it.
                        Yurla is rather an interseting place and modern in presnt day standards, but a great deal is dependant on the forestry work, fishing and a small amount of agriculture.
                        antoni530

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                        http://ca.toolbar. <http://ca.toolbar. <http://ca.toolbar. yahoo.com.> yahoo.com.> yahoo.com.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















                        __________________________________________________________________
                        Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now
                        http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • b_styrna
                        Antoni, I m sorry I did nor reply to this, your posting as I don t get every posting, I just get a a summary once every day or so. So I missed this one. I
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 27, 2009
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                          Antoni,

                          I'm sorry I did nor reply to this, your posting as I don't get every posting, I just get a a summary once every day or so. So I missed this one.

                          I totally get your Gulag vs. Piosolek explanation. You are so right. I'm versed with the difference(s). I just got into using GULAG because laypersons , like my English friends don't understand the differences, etc.. so it is easier for me to simply use one word "GULAG". But yes, I may be overstepping/confusing people. Well, it kind of does not matter to me since it is such a subtle difference. I mean the intent was the same. You were sent there to slave labor, then then if you die, oh well, you die from hunger, exhaustion, whatever. No one cared in Siberia. These are just words/labels to me.

                          Ha, ha , that GULAG map I posted, it was not meant to show my families camps. It was satire, a joke, .... on the whole Russian/Siberian thing... I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

                          My dad's family were deported to Jurlinski Lopan, I presume on the Lopan River. There is also a Lopva river nearby, but it is not the same river or place. I can't find a place named LOPAN on any of my maps or sources. So maybe that Piosolek ( ha, ha GULAG) disappeared. Not too surprising .

                          Please, if you find Lopan, that would be awesome.

                          Pozdrawiam


                          Zbigniew (ZBIG)



                          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Antoni Kazimierski" <ASKAZIMIERSKI@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Zbyszek,
                          > Yes, I was particularly impressed by the Gulag Map you have and I wish to have had a copy of such a document.
                          > It lists Gulags and not Posiolki as such; both have their relevant meanings.
                          > Karta and Memorial, in their wisdom, separate them to denote different types of imprisonment of the deported people; not necessarily Poles alone.
                          > Gulags were 'corrective' camps for all sorts of people, but mainly single people (there were exceptions , I must admit, but with reasons) whereas most of Polish families we talk about in our group were not actually in Gulag environment ;where camps were guarded and severe regime applied.
                          > Families, as opposed to 'court sentenced people' or ex-military or police, were deported to posiolki or specposiolki in a somewhat freeyer environment, although hard for many and tough for others.
                          > According to Karta and Memorial lists both families of Tymrakiewicz and Kolodziej were in posiolki camps in Vizyay (Kudymkar) and Permogorie camp 108 near Kotlas in Archangelskaja oblast.
                          > I just wonder how do you view the situation these two families found themselves in those Taiga forests? Gulag versus Posiolek.
                          > Were Memorial and Karta correct in naming them the way did?.
                          >
                          > This brings me to the comparison of the two maps of deportations in the KS Gallery; and I have this little observation: the Gulag map does not show the camps as shown on the second map; or atleast I cannot find them.
                          >
                          > Regarding your father's family Styrna I presume?
                          > You say they were in Lopan near Yurla.
                          > The rajon is Yurlinskyy in Komi-Permyak oblast.
                          > The Lopan name seems to be derived from Lopva river. There does not appear to be a posiolek there anymore - none on the maps I have; but I'll keep looking for it.
                          > Yurla is rather an interseting place and modern in presnt day standards, but a great deal is dependant on the forestry work, fishing and a small amount of agriculture.
                          > antoni530
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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