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Another discovery

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  • Zdzislaw Nowicki
    Hello to you all. Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the Soviets managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 28, 2009
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      Hello to you all.

      Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the Soviets
      managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
      they registered? What was the process? etc...

      Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
      goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
      quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid answers to
      many of my questions.

      The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:

      REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
      The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia

      Author: Jan T. Gross

      ISBN 0-691-09603-1 and 9 780691 096032

      I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be poring
      over its contents for the next few hours.

      Warm regards,

      Zdzis

      Runaway Bay
      Queensland
      Australia
    • Danuta Janina Wójcik
      Witam, Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read: http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/23655/jan-t-gross-polands-anti-semitic-attitude.html
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 28, 2009
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        Witam,

        Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read:

        http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/23655/jan-t-gross-polands-anti-semitic-attitude.html

        The latest work by Jan T. Gross, an American professor of Polish origin, has ignited a fierce debate between the Polish church, historians and media. Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation was published in the US in 2006 under the title Fear: Antisemitism in Poland after Auschwitz. In it, Gross blames the whole of Polish society of having an anti-semitic attitude, shown by the acts of violence against Jews purportrated before the end and after the end of World War Two, and notably the Kielce pogrom, when 37 Polish Jews were murdered in 1946.

        According to Gross, Polish anti-semitism stems from the fear of the Polish people of giving back properties to the Holocaust survivors, as well as the feeling of guilt for their actions during the War. Gross also points the finger at the reproaches of the Polish church. He challenges the theory that the origins of post-war anti-semitism is the unproportionally high number of Jews in high positions in the communist regime.

        The book comes seven years after the publication of Gross' controversial documentNeighbours. The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It discusses the 1941 massacre of several hundred Jews by half of the village residents of Jedwabne in Poland. Today, the name of the book itself goes unmentioned on Polish front pages.



        'Vampire' and 'missionary'


        The main reproach of the historians in the media against Gross is that he has not used his historical research properly. They blame him of using academic polemic and 'the careless use of comparing the numbers and facts'. They say he only used the parts of witnesses' statements to back up the main arguments of his book. Janusz Kurtyka, director of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) where the acts of the Polish Stasi are documented, has criticised Gross by calling him a 'vampire of historical writing'. Kurtyka maintains that his book does not have much to do with academic research.

        'An academic should carry out his research with passion but not as if he is on a mission,' professor Andrzej Paczkowski told the author and columnist Halina Bortnowska during a televised debate on TVN 24 (Poland's first 24-hour news channel) on 19 January. 'And Gross is acting like a missionary.' The respected historian added that: 'Here there are two types of memories- that of the Polish and that of the Jews. Memories is one thing, history is another. Memories are either black or white, but history has many different nuances - these are the shades of twilight.'

        Commentators point out that the book simplifies the Polish-Jewish post-war relationship, in particularly the extent of the political conflict and the number of Jews in the political structure of the communists. Judicial circles accuse Gross of a generalisation of injustice. The Crown Prosecution Service in Krakow has investigated the facts of the case for defamation against the population. The Arch-Bishop of Krakow, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, wrote a letter to the independent publishing house ZNAK claiming that the book had 'awoken anti-Polish and anti-semitic demons.' ZNAK themselves say they are 'generally credited for. publishing quality works in fiction and non-fiction.' Meanwhile, the editor-in-chief of the right-wing daily newspaper Rzeczpospolita has described the publication as 'anti-Polish'.

        The huge reaction stirred up by Gross's book shows how great the controversy surrounding the subject of anti-semitism has become. With all it's deficiencies, the book has the chance of bringing the Jewish-Polish debate back to life. This goal is easily achievable.



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Zdzislaw Nowicki
        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:40 PM
        Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Another discovery


        Hello to you all.

        Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the Soviets
        managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
        they registered? What was the process? etc...

        Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
        goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
        quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid answers to
        many of my questions.

        The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:

        REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
        The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia

        Author: Jan T. Gross

        ISBN 0-691-09603-1 and 9 780691 096032

        I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be poring
        over its contents for the next few hours.

        Warm regards,

        Zdzis

        Runaway Bay
        Queensland
        Australia





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Zdzislaw Nowicki
        Thank you, I m well aware of his reputation. It s not his politics or views I m interested in, I read his book Neigbors (sic) so I m fairly familiar with his
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 28, 2009
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          Thank you, I'm well aware of his reputation. It's not his politics or
          views I'm interested in, I read his book Neigbors (sic) so I'm fairly
          familiar with his style. Thanks for the warning but I'll cross check
          as many of his notes to reference material as I can. So far, the
          book's quite informative.



          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik
          <sandlily@...> wrote:
          >
          > Witam,
          >
          > Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read:
          >
          >
          http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/23655/jan-t-gross-polands-anti-semitic-attitude.html
          >
          > The latest work by Jan T. Gross, an American professor of Polish
          origin, has ignited a fierce debate between the Polish church,
          historians and media. Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz:
          An Essay in Historical Interpretation was published in the US in 2006
          under the title Fear: Antisemitism in Poland after Auschwitz. In it,
          Gross blames the whole of Polish society of having an anti-semitic
          attitude, shown by the acts of violence against Jews purportrated
          before the end and after the end of World War Two, and notably the
          Kielce pogrom, when 37 Polish Jews were murdered in 1946.
          >
          > According to Gross, Polish anti-semitism stems from the fear of the
          Polish people of giving back properties to the Holocaust survivors, as
          well as the feeling of guilt for their actions during the War. Gross
          also points the finger at the reproaches of the Polish church. He
          challenges the theory that the origins of post-war anti-semitism is
          the unproportionally high number of Jews in high positions in the
          communist regime.
          >
          > The book comes seven years after the publication of Gross'
          controversial documentNeighbours. The Destruction of the Jewish
          Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It discusses the 1941 massacre of
          several hundred Jews by half of the village residents of Jedwabne in
          Poland. Today, the name of the book itself goes unmentioned on Polish
          front pages.
          >
          >
          >
          > 'Vampire' and 'missionary'
          >
          >
          > The main reproach of the historians in the media against Gross is
          that he has not used his historical research properly. They blame him
          of using academic polemic and 'the careless use of comparing the
          numbers and facts'. They say he only used the parts of witnesses'
          statements to back up the main arguments of his book. Janusz Kurtyka,
          director of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) where the acts
          of the Polish Stasi are documented, has criticised Gross by calling
          him a 'vampire of historical writing'. Kurtyka maintains that his book
          does not have much to do with academic research.
          >
          > 'An academic should carry out his research with passion but not as
          if he is on a mission,' professor Andrzej Paczkowski told the author
          and columnist Halina Bortnowska during a televised debate on TVN 24
          (Poland's first 24-hour news channel) on 19 January. 'And Gross is
          acting like a missionary.' The respected historian added that: 'Here
          there are two types of memories- that of the Polish and that of the
          Jews. Memories is one thing, history is another. Memories are either
          black or white, but history has many different nuances - these are the
          shades of twilight.'
          >
          > Commentators point out that the book simplifies the Polish-Jewish
          post-war relationship, in particularly the extent of the political
          conflict and the number of Jews in the political structure of the
          communists. Judicial circles accuse Gross of a generalisation of
          injustice. The Crown Prosecution Service in Krakow has investigated
          the facts of the case for defamation against the population. The
          Arch-Bishop of Krakow, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, wrote a letter to
          the independent publishing house ZNAK claiming that the book had
          'awoken anti-Polish and anti-semitic demons.' ZNAK themselves say they
          are 'generally credited for. publishing quality works in fiction and
          non-fiction.' Meanwhile, the editor-in-chief of the right-wing daily
          newspaper Rzeczpospolita has described the publication as 'anti-Polish'.
          >
          > The huge reaction stirred up by Gross's book shows how great the
          controversy surrounding the subject of anti-semitism has become. With
          all it's deficiencies, the book has the chance of bringing the
          Jewish-Polish debate back to life. This goal is easily achievable.
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Zdzislaw Nowicki
          > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:40 PM
          > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Another discovery
          >
          >
          > Hello to you all.
          >
          > Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the Soviets
          > managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
          > they registered? What was the process? etc...
          >
          > Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
          > goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
          > quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid answers to
          > many of my questions.
          >
          > The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:
          >
          > REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
          > The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia
          >
          > Author: Jan T. Gross
          >
          > ISBN 0-691-09603-1 and 9 780691 096032
          >
          > I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be poring
          > over its contents for the next few hours.
          >
          > Warm regards,
          >
          > Zdzis
          >
          > Runaway Bay
          > Queensland
          > Australia
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Peczkis Jan
          In fact, there are many works, including Jewish ones, reviewed by me, that demonstrate the fraudulence of Jan T. Gross claims. For a listing, please click on:
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 29, 2009
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            In fact, there are many works, including Jewish ones, reviewed by me, that demonstrate the fraudulence of Jan T. Gross' claims. For a listing, please click on:

            http://www.amazon.com/Pogroms-Przytyk-Jedwabne-Kielce-Various-Perpectives/lm/R3KAKVOIKECAL5/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_title_full

            Sincerely,
            Mr. Jan Peczkis


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...>
            Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009 12:35 am
            Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
            To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com





            > Thank you, I'm well aware of his reputation. It's not his politics or
            > views I'm interested in, I read his book Neigbors (sic) so I'm fairly
            > familiar with his style. Thanks for the warning but I'll cross check
            > as many of his notes to reference material as I can. So far, the
            > book's quite informative.

            > --- In Kresy-Siberia@> yahoogroups.> com, Danuta Janina Wójcik
            > <sandlily@..> .> wrote:
            >
            > > Witam,
            > >
            > > Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read:
            > >
            >
            > http://www.cafebabe> l.com/eng/> article/23655/> jan-t-gross-> polands-anti-> semitic-attitude> .html
            > >
            > > The latest work by Jan T. Gross, an American professor of Polish
            > origin, has ignited a fierce debate between the Polish church,
            > historians and media. Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz:
            > An Essay in Historical Interpretation was published in the US in 2006
            > under the title Fear: Antisemitism in Poland after Auschwitz. In it,
            > Gross blames the whole of Polish society of having an anti-semitic
            > attitude, shown by the acts of violence against Jews purportrated
            > before the end and after the end of World War Two, and notably the
            > Kielce pogrom, when 37 Polish Jews were murdered in 1946.
            > >
            > > According to Gross, Polish anti-semitism stems from the fear of the
            > Polish people of giving back properties to the Holocaust survivors, as
            > well as the feeling of guilt for their actions during the War. Gross
            > also points the finger at the reproaches of the Polish church. He
            > challenges the theory that the origins of post-war anti-semitism is
            > the unproportionally high number of Jews in high positions in the
            > communist regime.
            > >
            > > The book comes seven years after the publication of Gross'
            > controversial documentNeighbours. The Destruction of the Jewish
            > Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It discusses the 1941 massacre of
            > several hundred Jews by half of the village residents of Jedwabne in
            > Poland. Today, the name of the book itself goes unmentioned on Polish
            > front pages.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > 'Vampire' and 'missionary'
            > >
            > >
            > > The main reproach of the historians in the media against Gross is
            > that he has not used his historical research properly. They blame him
            > of using academic polemic and 'the careless use of comparing the
            > numbers and facts'. They say he only used the parts of witnesses'
            > statements to back up the main arguments of his book. Janusz Kurtyka,
            > director of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) where the acts
            > of the Polish Stasi are documented, has criticised Gross by calling
            > him a 'vampire of historical writing'. Kurtyka maintains that his book
            > does not have much to do with academic research.
            > >
            > > 'An academic should carry out his research with passion but not as
            > if he is on a mission,' professor Andrzej Paczkowski told the author
            > and columnist Halina Bortnowska during a televised debate on TVN 24
            > (Poland's first 24-hour news channel) on 19 January. 'And Gross is
            > acting like a missionary.' The respected historian added that: 'Here
            > there are two types of memories- that of the Polish and that of the
            > Jews. Memories is one thing, history is another. Memories are either
            > black or white, but history has many different nuances - these are the
            > shades of twilight.'
            > >
            > > Commentators point out that the book simplifies the Polish-Jewish
            > post-war relationship, in particularly the extent of the political
            > conflict and the number of Jews in the political structure of the
            > communists. Judicial circles accuse Gross of a generalisation of
            > injustice. The Crown Prosecution Service in Krakow has investigated
            > the facts of the case for defamation against the population. The
            > Arch-Bishop of Krakow, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, wrote a letter to
            > the independent publishing house ZNAK claiming that the book had
            > 'awoken anti-Polish and anti-semitic demons.' ZNAK themselves say they
            > are 'generally credited for. publishing quality works in fiction and
            > non-fiction.> ' Meanwhile, the editor-in-chief of the right-wing daily
            > newspaper Rzeczpospolita has described the publication as 'anti-Polish'.
            > >
            > > The huge reaction stirred up by Gross's book shows how great the
            > controversy surrounding the subject of anti-semitism has become. With
            > all it's deficiencies, the book has the chance of bringing the
            > Jewish-Polish debate back to life. This goal is easily achievable.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Zdzislaw Nowicki
            > > To: Kresy-Siberia@> yahoogroups.> com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:40 PM
            > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Another discovery
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello to you all.
            > >
            > > Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the Soviets
            > > managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
            > > they registered? What was the process? etc...
            > >
            > > Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
            > > goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
            > > quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid answers to
            > > many of my questions.
            > >
            > > The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:
            > >
            > > REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
            > > The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia
            > >
            > > Author: Jan T. Gross
            > >
            > > ISBN 0-691-09603-> 1 and 9 780691 096032
            > >
            > > I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be poring
            > > over its contents for the next few hours.
            > >
            > > Warm regards,
            > >
            > > Zdzis
            > >
            > > Runaway Bay
            > > Queensland
            > > Australia
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >



            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Zdzislaw Nowicki
            I have finished the book Revolution from Abroad and found it to be informative, extremely biased but informative. I m more interested in HOW it was done, not
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 29, 2009
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              I have finished the book "Revolution from Abroad" and found it to be
              informative, extremely biased but informative. I'm more interested in
              HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.

              I stripped away the bias with some difficulty and found that his
              description of the mechanics of the subjugation of the people by the
              Soviet system and the NKVD conduct of the arrests and deportations was
              plausible and I choose that word very, very carefully.

              Most of the material I have read so far tends to assume that the
              reader knows, broadly speaking, the WHY and ignores the HOW the lists
              of people marked for deportation were prepared. Most of it simply
              states something along the lines of "they came in the middle of the
              night, checked our names on a list, gave us half an hour to pack, took
              us to the train station, crammed us into cattle cars with no food or
              water and sent us to Siberia".

              Can anyone point to any other works, either in English or Polish, that
              are as informative but less obviously biased? I need to be able to
              counter in my mind in a more informed manner than just dismissing the
              book as poor analysis of his raw data.

              TIA

              Zdzis
              Runaway Bay
              Queensland
              Australia







              --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
              <znowicki@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thank you, I'm well aware of his reputation. It's not his politics or
              > views I'm interested in, I read his book Neigbors (sic) so I'm fairly
              > familiar with his style. Thanks for the warning but I'll cross check
              > as many of his notes to reference material as I can. So far, the
              > book's quite informative.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik
              > <sandlily@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Witam,
              > >
              > > Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read:
              > >
              > >
              >
              http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/23655/jan-t-gross-polands-anti-semitic-attitude.html
              > >
              > > The latest work by Jan T. Gross, an American professor of Polish
              > origin, has ignited a fierce debate between the Polish church,
              > historians and media. Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz:
              > An Essay in Historical Interpretation was published in the US in 2006
              > under the title Fear: Antisemitism in Poland after Auschwitz. In it,
              > Gross blames the whole of Polish society of having an anti-semitic
              > attitude, shown by the acts of violence against Jews purportrated
              > before the end and after the end of World War Two, and notably the
              > Kielce pogrom, when 37 Polish Jews were murdered in 1946.
              > >
              > > According to Gross, Polish anti-semitism stems from the fear of the
              > Polish people of giving back properties to the Holocaust survivors, as
              > well as the feeling of guilt for their actions during the War. Gross
              > also points the finger at the reproaches of the Polish church. He
              > challenges the theory that the origins of post-war anti-semitism is
              > the unproportionally high number of Jews in high positions in the
              > communist regime.
              > >
              > > The book comes seven years after the publication of Gross'
              > controversial documentNeighbours. The Destruction of the Jewish
              > Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It discusses the 1941 massacre of
              > several hundred Jews by half of the village residents of Jedwabne in
              > Poland. Today, the name of the book itself goes unmentioned on Polish
              > front pages.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 'Vampire' and 'missionary'
              > >
              > >
              > > The main reproach of the historians in the media against Gross is
              > that he has not used his historical research properly. They blame him
              > of using academic polemic and 'the careless use of comparing the
              > numbers and facts'. They say he only used the parts of witnesses'
              > statements to back up the main arguments of his book. Janusz Kurtyka,
              > director of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) where the acts
              > of the Polish Stasi are documented, has criticised Gross by calling
              > him a 'vampire of historical writing'. Kurtyka maintains that his book
              > does not have much to do with academic research.
              > >
              > > 'An academic should carry out his research with passion but not as
              > if he is on a mission,' professor Andrzej Paczkowski told the author
              > and columnist Halina Bortnowska during a televised debate on TVN 24
              > (Poland's first 24-hour news channel) on 19 January. 'And Gross is
              > acting like a missionary.' The respected historian added that: 'Here
              > there are two types of memories- that of the Polish and that of the
              > Jews. Memories is one thing, history is another. Memories are either
              > black or white, but history has many different nuances - these are the
              > shades of twilight.'
              > >
              > > Commentators point out that the book simplifies the Polish-Jewish
              > post-war relationship, in particularly the extent of the political
              > conflict and the number of Jews in the political structure of the
              > communists. Judicial circles accuse Gross of a generalisation of
              > injustice. The Crown Prosecution Service in Krakow has investigated
              > the facts of the case for defamation against the population. The
              > Arch-Bishop of Krakow, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, wrote a letter to
              > the independent publishing house ZNAK claiming that the book had
              > 'awoken anti-Polish and anti-semitic demons.' ZNAK themselves say they
              > are 'generally credited for. publishing quality works in fiction and
              > non-fiction.' Meanwhile, the editor-in-chief of the right-wing daily
              > newspaper Rzeczpospolita has described the publication as 'anti-Polish'.
              > >
              > > The huge reaction stirred up by Gross's book shows how great the
              > controversy surrounding the subject of anti-semitism has become. With
              > all it's deficiencies, the book has the chance of bringing the
              > Jewish-Polish debate back to life. This goal is easily achievable.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Zdzislaw Nowicki
              > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:40 PM
              > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Another discovery
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello to you all.
              > >
              > > Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the
              Soviets
              > > managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
              > > they registered? What was the process? etc...
              > >
              > > Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
              > > goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
              > > quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid answers to
              > > many of my questions.
              > >
              > > The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:
              > >
              > > REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
              > > The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western
              Belorussia
              > >
              > > Author: Jan T. Gross
              > >
              > > ISBN 0-691-09603-1 and 9 780691 096032
              > >
              > > I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be poring
              > > over its contents for the next few hours.
              > >
              > > Warm regards,
              > >
              > > Zdzis
              > >
              > > Runaway Bay
              > > Queensland
              > > Australia
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • Monica Janowski
              Zdzis I haven t read the book yet. Are you saying that Goss does give a reasonable analysis of why certain people were chosen for deportation (obviously
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 29, 2009
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                Zdzis

                I haven't read the book yet. Are you saying that Goss does give a
                reasonable analysis of why certain people were chosen for deportation
                (obviously beyond military settlers, who were automatically chosen)?
                If he does, what, broadly speaking, is he saying?

                Monica

                On 30 Jan 2009, at 02:42, Zdzislaw Nowicki wrote:

                > I have finished the book "Revolution from Abroad" and found it to be
                > informative, extremely biased but informative. I'm more interested in
                > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.
                >
                > I stripped away the bias with some difficulty and found that his
                > description of the mechanics of the subjugation of the people by the
                > Soviet system and the NKVD conduct of the arrests and deportations was
                > plausible and I choose that word very, very carefully.
                >
                > Most of the material I have read so far tends to assume that the
                > reader knows, broadly speaking, the WHY and ignores the HOW the lists
                > of people marked for deportation were prepared. Most of it simply
                > states something along the lines of "they came in the middle of the
                > night, checked our names on a list, gave us half an hour to pack, took
                > us to the train station, crammed us into cattle cars with no food or
                > water and sent us to Siberia".
                >
                > Can anyone point to any other works, either in English or Polish, that
                > are as informative but less obviously biased? I need to be able to
                > counter in my mind in a more informed manner than just dismissing the
                > book as poor analysis of his raw data.
                >
                > TIA
                >
                > Zdzis
                > Runaway Bay
                > Queensland
                > Australia
                >
                > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                > <znowicki@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Thank you, I'm well aware of his reputation. It's not his politics
                > or
                > > views I'm interested in, I read his book Neigbors (sic) so I'm
                > fairly
                > > familiar with his style. Thanks for the warning but I'll cross check
                > > as many of his notes to reference material as I can. So far, the
                > > book's quite informative.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik
                > > <sandlily@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Witam,
                > > >
                > > > Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read:
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/23655/jan-t-gross-polands-anti-semitic-attitude.html
                > > >
                > > > The latest work by Jan T. Gross, an American professor of Polish
                > > origin, has ignited a fierce debate between the Polish church,
                > > historians and media. Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz:
                > > An Essay in Historical Interpretation was published in the US in
                > 2006
                > > under the title Fear: Antisemitism in Poland after Auschwitz. In it,
                > > Gross blames the whole of Polish society of having an anti-semitic
                > > attitude, shown by the acts of violence against Jews purportrated
                > > before the end and after the end of World War Two, and notably the
                > > Kielce pogrom, when 37 Polish Jews were murdered in 1946.
                > > >
                > > > According to Gross, Polish anti-semitism stems from the fear of
                > the
                > > Polish people of giving back properties to the Holocaust
                > survivors, as
                > > well as the feeling of guilt for their actions during the War. Gross
                > > also points the finger at the reproaches of the Polish church. He
                > > challenges the theory that the origins of post-war anti-semitism is
                > > the unproportionally high number of Jews in high positions in the
                > > communist regime.
                > > >
                > > > The book comes seven years after the publication of Gross'
                > > controversial documentNeighbours. The Destruction of the Jewish
                > > Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It discusses the 1941 massacre of
                > > several hundred Jews by half of the village residents of Jedwabne in
                > > Poland. Today, the name of the book itself goes unmentioned on
                > Polish
                > > front pages.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > 'Vampire' and 'missionary'
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > The main reproach of the historians in the media against Gross is
                > > that he has not used his historical research properly. They blame
                > him
                > > of using academic polemic and 'the careless use of comparing the
                > > numbers and facts'. They say he only used the parts of witnesses'
                > > statements to back up the main arguments of his book. Janusz
                > Kurtyka,
                > > director of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) where the
                > acts
                > > of the Polish Stasi are documented, has criticised Gross by calling
                > > him a 'vampire of historical writing'. Kurtyka maintains that his
                > book
                > > does not have much to do with academic research.
                > > >
                > > > 'An academic should carry out his research with passion but not as
                > > if he is on a mission,' professor Andrzej Paczkowski told the author
                > > and columnist Halina Bortnowska during a televised debate on TVN 24
                > > (Poland's first 24-hour news channel) on 19 January. 'And Gross is
                > > acting like a missionary.' The respected historian added that: 'Here
                > > there are two types of memories- that of the Polish and that of the
                > > Jews. Memories is one thing, history is another. Memories are either
                > > black or white, but history has many different nuances - these are
                > the
                > > shades of twilight.'
                > > >
                > > > Commentators point out that the book simplifies the Polish-Jewish
                > > post-war relationship, in particularly the extent of the political
                > > conflict and the number of Jews in the political structure of the
                > > communists. Judicial circles accuse Gross of a generalisation of
                > > injustice. The Crown Prosecution Service in Krakow has investigated
                > > the facts of the case for defamation against the population. The
                > > Arch-Bishop of Krakow, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, wrote a letter to
                > > the independent publishing house ZNAK claiming that the book had
                > > 'awoken anti-Polish and anti-semitic demons.' ZNAK themselves say
                > they
                > > are 'generally credited for. publishing quality works in fiction and
                > > non-fiction.' Meanwhile, the editor-in-chief of the right-wing daily
                > > newspaper Rzeczpospolita has described the publication as 'anti-
                > Polish'.
                > > >
                > > > The huge reaction stirred up by Gross's book shows how great the
                > > controversy surrounding the subject of anti-semitism has become.
                > With
                > > all it's deficiencies, the book has the chance of bringing the
                > > Jewish-Polish debate back to life. This goal is easily achievable.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: Zdzislaw Nowicki
                > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:40 PM
                > > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Another discovery
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hello to you all.
                > > >
                > > > Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the
                > Soviets
                > > > managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How
                > were
                > > > they registered? What was the process? etc...
                > > >
                > > > Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
                > > > goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
                > > > quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid
                > answers to
                > > > many of my questions.
                > > >
                > > > The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:
                > > >
                > > > REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
                > > > The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western
                > Belorussia
                > > >
                > > > Author: Jan T. Gross
                > > >
                > > > ISBN 0-691-09603-1 and 9 780691 096032
                > > >
                > > > I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be
                > poring
                > > > over its contents for the next few hours.
                > > >
                > > > Warm regards,
                > > >
                > > > Zdzis
                > > >
                > > > Runaway Bay
                > > > Queensland
                > > > Australia
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >

                Monica Janowski
                318 Cranbrook Road
                Ilford, Essex
                IG2 6EP
                Tel 0208 491 3041
                monica.janowski@...
              • Peczkis Jan
                In answer to these questions, it looks like the Soviets were selective only at first as to which Poles they deported. The Soviets evidently were intent on
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 30, 2009
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                  In answer to these questions, it looks like the Soviets were selective only at first as to which Poles they deported. The Soviets evidently were intent on de-Polonizing the Kresy completely. Only the unexpected 1941 attack by Nazi Germany on its erstwhile Soviet prevented this from happening. Later, or course (1944-on) they did de-Polonize the Kresy nearly completely, but sent the Kresy Poles to postwar-boundary Poland instead of to Siberia.

                  I have reviewed many books on the Siberia-exile Poles. Please click on:

                  http://www.amazon.com/Gulag-Gulags-Poles-Polish-General-Anders-Battle-of-Monte-Cassino/lm/R2JO692IHTGCOX/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_title_full

                  Sincerely,
                  Mr. Jan Peczkis

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...>
                  Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:42 pm
                  Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                  To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com




                  > I have finished the book "Revolution from Abroad" and found it to be
                  > informative, extremely biased but informative. I'm more interested in
                  > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.

                  > I stripped away the bias with some difficulty and found that his
                  > description of the mechanics of the subjugation of the people by the
                  > Soviet system and the NKVD conduct of the arrests and deportations was
                  > plausible and I choose that word very, very carefully.

                  > Most of the material I have read so far tends to assume that the
                  > reader knows, broadly speaking, the WHY and ignores the HOW the lists
                  > of people marked for deportation were prepared. Most of it simply
                  > states something along the lines of "they came in the middle of the
                  > night, checked our names on a list, gave us half an hour to pack, took
                  > us to the train station, crammed us into cattle cars with no food or
                  > water and sent us to Siberia".

                  > Can anyone point to any other works, either in English or Polish, that
                  > are as informative but less obviously biased? I need to be able to
                  > counter in my mind in a more informed manner than just dismissing the
                  > book as poor analysis of his raw data.

                  > TIA

                  > Zdzis
                  > Runaway Bay
                  > Queensland
                  > Australia

                  > --- In Kresy-Siberia@> yahoogroups.> com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                  > <znowicki@..> .> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Thank you, I'm well aware of his reputation. It's not his politics or
                  > > views I'm interested in, I read his book Neigbors (sic) so I'm fairly
                  > > familiar with his style. Thanks for the warning but I'll cross check
                  > > as many of his notes to reference material as I can. So far, the
                  > > book's quite informative.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@> yahoogroups.> com, Danuta Janina Wójcik
                  > > <sandlily@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Witam,
                  > > >
                  > > > Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > http://www.cafebabe> l.com/eng/> article/23655/> jan-t-gross-> polands-anti-> semitic-attitude> .html
                  > > >
                  > > > The latest work by Jan T. Gross, an American professor of Polish
                  > > origin, has ignited a fierce debate between the Polish church,
                  > > historians and media. Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz:
                  > > An Essay in Historical Interpretation was published in the US in 2006
                  > > under the title Fear: Antisemitism in Poland after Auschwitz. In it,
                  > > Gross blames the whole of Polish society of having an anti-semitic
                  > > attitude, shown by the acts of violence against Jews purportrated
                  > > before the end and after the end of World War Two, and notably the
                  > > Kielce pogrom, when 37 Polish Jews were murdered in 1946.
                  > > >
                  > > > According to Gross, Polish anti-semitism stems from the fear of the
                  > > Polish people of giving back properties to the Holocaust survivors, as
                  > > well as the feeling of guilt for their actions during the War. Gross
                  > > also points the finger at the reproaches of the Polish church. He
                  > > challenges the theory that the origins of post-war anti-semitism is
                  > > the unproportionally high number of Jews in high positions in the
                  > > communist regime.
                  > > >
                  > > > The book comes seven years after the publication of Gross'
                  > > controversial documentNeighbours. The Destruction of the Jewish
                  > > Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It discusses the 1941 massacre of
                  > > several hundred Jews by half of the village residents of Jedwabne in
                  > > Poland. Today, the name of the book itself goes unmentioned on Polish
                  > > front pages.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > 'Vampire' and 'missionary'
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The main reproach of the historians in the media against Gross is
                  > > that he has not used his historical research properly. They blame him
                  > > of using academic polemic and 'the careless use of comparing the
                  > > numbers and facts'. They say he only used the parts of witnesses'
                  > > statements to back up the main arguments of his book. Janusz Kurtyka,
                  > > director of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) where the acts
                  > > of the Polish Stasi are documented, has criticised Gross by calling
                  > > him a 'vampire of historical writing'. Kurtyka maintains that his book
                  > > does not have much to do with academic research.
                  > > >
                  > > > 'An academic should carry out his research with passion but not as
                  > > if he is on a mission,' professor Andrzej Paczkowski told the author
                  > > and columnist Halina Bortnowska during a televised debate on TVN 24
                  > > (Poland's first 24-hour news channel) on 19 January. 'And Gross is
                  > > acting like a missionary.' The respected historian added that: 'Here
                  > > there are two types of memories- that of the Polish and that of the
                  > > Jews. Memories is one thing, history is another. Memories are either
                  > > black or white, but history has many different nuances - these are the
                  > > shades of twilight.'
                  > > >
                  > > > Commentators point out that the book simplifies the Polish-Jewish
                  > > post-war relationship, in particularly the extent of the political
                  > > conflict and the number of Jews in the political structure of the
                  > > communists. Judicial circles accuse Gross of a generalisation of
                  > > injustice. The Crown Prosecution Service in Krakow has investigated
                  > > the facts of the case for defamation against the population. The
                  > > Arch-Bishop of Krakow, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, wrote a letter to
                  > > the independent publishing house ZNAK claiming that the book had
                  > > 'awoken anti-Polish and anti-semitic demons.' ZNAK themselves say they
                  > > are 'generally credited for. publishing quality works in fiction and
                  > > non-fiction.> ' Meanwhile, the editor-in-chief of the right-wing daily
                  > > newspaper Rzeczpospolita has described the publication as 'anti-Polish'.
                  > > >
                  > > > The huge reaction stirred up by Gross's book shows how great the
                  > > controversy surrounding the subject of anti-semitism has become. With
                  > > all it's deficiencies, the book has the chance of bringing the
                  > > Jewish-Polish debate back to life. This goal is easily achievable.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: Zdzislaw Nowicki
                  > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@> yahoogroups.> com
                  > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:40 PM
                  > > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Another discovery
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello to you all.
                  > > >
                  > > > Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the
                  > Soviets
                  > > > managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
                  > > > they registered? What was the process? etc...
                  > > >
                  > > > Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
                  > > > goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
                  > > > quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid answers to
                  > > > many of my questions.
                  > > >
                  > > > The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:
                  > > >
                  > > > REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
                  > > > The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western
                  > Belorussia
                  > > >
                  > > > Author: Jan T. Gross
                  > > >
                  > > > ISBN 0-691-09603-> 1 and 9 780691 096032
                  > > >
                  > > > I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be poring
                  > > > over its contents for the next few hours.
                  > > >
                  > > > Warm regards,
                  > > >
                  > > > Zdzis
                  > > >
                  > > > Runaway Bay
                  > > > Queensland
                  > > > Australia
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  >



                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • RICHARD KASPRZAK
                  My father was in the Polish Artillery.  When he was picked up by the russians, he told me that the russians had lists of military people, and complete
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 30, 2009
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                    My father was in the Polish Artillery.  When he was picked up by the russians, he told me that the russians had lists of military people, and complete dossiers on the military families.  Before being taken away, he was interrogated.  The russians already knew all memberfs of his family.  They were deported.  If you want to take over a country or area of it, it would be best to remove the people who were militarily trained and could oppose this movement.
                     
                                                                                      Rysiek

                    --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...> wrote:

                    From: Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...>
                    Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 9:42 PM






                    I have finished the book "Revolution from Abroad" and found it to be
                    informative, extremely biased but informative. I'm more interested in
                    HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.

                    I stripped away the bias with some difficulty and found that his
                    description of the mechanics of the subjugation of the people by the
                    Soviet system and the NKVD conduct of the arrests and deportations was
                    plausible and I choose that word very, very carefully.

                    Most of the material I have read so far tends to assume that the
                    reader knows, broadly speaking, the WHY and ignores the HOW the lists
                    of people marked for deportation were prepared. Most of it simply
                    states something along the lines of "they came in the middle of the
                    night, checked our names on a list, gave us half an hour to pack, took
                    us to the train station, crammed us into cattle cars with no food or
                    water and sent us to Siberia".

                    Can anyone point to any other works, either in English or Polish, that
                    are as informative but less obviously biased? I need to be able to
                    counter in my mind in a more informed manner than just dismissing the
                    book as poor analysis of his raw data.

                    TIA

                    Zdzis
                    Runaway Bay
                    Queensland
                    Australia

                    --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                    <znowicki@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you, I'm well aware of his reputation. It's not his politics or
                    > views I'm interested in, I read his book Neigbors (sic) so I'm fairly
                    > familiar with his style. Thanks for the warning but I'll cross check
                    > as many of his notes to reference material as I can. So far, the
                    > book's quite informative.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, Danuta Janina Wójcik
                    > <sandlily@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Witam,
                    > >
                    > > Alert, not all of Jan Gross books are favourable, please read:
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://www.cafebabe l.com/eng/ article/23655/ jan-t-gross- polands-anti- semitic-attitude .html
                    > >
                    > > The latest work by Jan T. Gross, an American professor of Polish
                    > origin, has ignited a fierce debate between the Polish church,
                    > historians and media. Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz:
                    > An Essay in Historical Interpretation was published in the US in 2006
                    > under the title Fear: Antisemitism in Poland after Auschwitz. In it,
                    > Gross blames the whole of Polish society of having an anti-semitic
                    > attitude, shown by the acts of violence against Jews purportrated
                    > before the end and after the end of World War Two, and notably the
                    > Kielce pogrom, when 37 Polish Jews were murdered in 1946.
                    > >
                    > > According to Gross, Polish anti-semitism stems from the fear of the
                    > Polish people of giving back properties to the Holocaust survivors, as
                    > well as the feeling of guilt for their actions during the War. Gross
                    > also points the finger at the reproaches of the Polish church. He
                    > challenges the theory that the origins of post-war anti-semitism is
                    > the unproportionally high number of Jews in high positions in the
                    > communist regime.
                    > >
                    > > The book comes seven years after the publication of Gross'
                    > controversial documentNeighbours. The Destruction of the Jewish
                    > Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It discusses the 1941 massacre of
                    > several hundred Jews by half of the village residents of Jedwabne in
                    > Poland. Today, the name of the book itself goes unmentioned on Polish
                    > front pages.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 'Vampire' and 'missionary'
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The main reproach of the historians in the media against Gross is
                    > that he has not used his historical research properly. They blame him
                    > of using academic polemic and 'the careless use of comparing the
                    > numbers and facts'. They say he only used the parts of witnesses'
                    > statements to back up the main arguments of his book. Janusz Kurtyka,
                    > director of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) where the acts
                    > of the Polish Stasi are documented, has criticised Gross by calling
                    > him a 'vampire of historical writing'. Kurtyka maintains that his book
                    > does not have much to do with academic research.
                    > >
                    > > 'An academic should carry out his research with passion but not as
                    > if he is on a mission,' professor Andrzej Paczkowski told the author
                    > and columnist Halina Bortnowska during a televised debate on TVN 24
                    > (Poland's first 24-hour news channel) on 19 January. 'And Gross is
                    > acting like a missionary.' The respected historian added that: 'Here
                    > there are two types of memories- that of the Polish and that of the
                    > Jews. Memories is one thing, history is another. Memories are either
                    > black or white, but history has many different nuances - these are the
                    > shades of twilight.'
                    > >
                    > > Commentators point out that the book simplifies the Polish-Jewish
                    > post-war relationship, in particularly the extent of the political
                    > conflict and the number of Jews in the political structure of the
                    > communists. Judicial circles accuse Gross of a generalisation of
                    > injustice. The Crown Prosecution Service in Krakow has investigated
                    > the facts of the case for defamation against the population. The
                    > Arch-Bishop of Krakow, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, wrote a letter to
                    > the independent publishing house ZNAK claiming that the book had
                    > 'awoken anti-Polish and anti-semitic demons.' ZNAK themselves say they
                    > are 'generally credited for. publishing quality works in fiction and
                    > non-fiction. ' Meanwhile, the editor-in-chief of the right-wing daily
                    > newspaper Rzeczpospolita has described the publication as 'anti-Polish' .
                    > >
                    > > The huge reaction stirred up by Gross's book shows how great the
                    > controversy surrounding the subject of anti-semitism has become. With
                    > all it's deficiencies, the book has the chance of bringing the
                    > Jewish-Polish debate back to life. This goal is easily achievable.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Zdzislaw Nowicki
                    > > To: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:40 PM
                    > > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Another discovery
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hello to you all.
                    > >
                    > > Like many of us, I have been struggling to understand how the
                    Soviets
                    > > managed the deportation of so many Poles. Who was selected? How were
                    > > they registered? What was the process? etc...
                    > >
                    > > Well, I'm happy to say that today I have just received a book that
                    > > goes a long way to answer many of those questions. I have very
                    > > quickly flicked through it and it has given me very lucid answers to
                    > > many of my questions.
                    > >
                    > > The book was updated in 2002 and is entitled:
                    > >
                    > > REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD
                    > > The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western
                    Belorussia
                    > >
                    > > Author: Jan T. Gross
                    > >
                    > > ISBN 0-691-09603- 1 and 9 780691 096032
                    > >
                    > > I just thought I'd share this gem of a book with you. I'll be poring
                    > > over its contents for the next few hours.
                    > >
                    > > Warm regards,
                    > >
                    > > Zdzis
                    > >
                    > > Runaway Bay
                    > > Queensland
                    > > Australia
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kenneth Fedzin
                    ... wrote: I m more interested in ... Hi Zdzislaw, I m no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to disagree or correct me), but
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 30, 2009
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                      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                      <znowicki@...> wrote:
                      I'm more interested in
                      > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.

                      Hi Zdzislaw,

                      I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                      disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                      offer it from my own researching...

                      The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers
                      of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept untold
                      millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and
                      everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well
                      practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.

                      Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                      Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                      Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                      correspondence/documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                      which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a court
                      record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                      These records are therefore still kept in archives today!

                      With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                      offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of
                      compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                      just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                      task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                      people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                      invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                      administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                      his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                      offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access
                      to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                      excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and
                      families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/professors and
                      their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had
                      served in the military.

                      A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)
                      in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from 'Memorial'
                      in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                      NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                      with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                      of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                      deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                      lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed
                      following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy
                      a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                      year and place of birth?

                      The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                      correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                      October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                      the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and
                      written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                      the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                      were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them
                      in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all the
                      members of the families on their lists.

                      Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some
                      avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                      time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby
                      daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                      not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                      too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district
                      and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                      village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She
                      was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.

                      The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                      them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                      possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                      regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                      rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                      labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                      Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                      their own folk.

                      They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the
                      will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                      excercise as deporting Poles.

                      Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                      1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having long
                      since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                      already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.

                      Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                      also be of interest/help to other members.


                      Regards,
                      Ken Fedzin
                      Dewsbury
                      England
                    • Zdzislaw Nowicki
                      Hi Ken, Thanks for that. I must confess that I ve become seriously interested in HOW the Soviets did these things. I m aware that the Russians (Tsarist and
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 30, 2009
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                        Hi Ken,

                        Thanks for that. I must confess that I've become seriously interested
                        in HOW the Soviets did these things. I'm aware that the Russians
                        (Tsarist and Soviet) have a long history in keeping the population
                        under control by the threat of exile to Siberia (I know that's a broad
                        statement, but bear with me.)I understand the broad aspects of
                        registering people, after all, if you know who people are and where
                        they reside, it's relatively easy to find them. That's a given, but I
                        want to go a bit deeper than registered first then deported...

                        Just to sidetrack a little and I hope this answers Pani Monika's
                        earlier post. On the question of who was deported, Gross claims to use
                        a report produced by the Polish embassy in August 1943 after it was
                        evacuated from the USSR to Teheran (I haven't read this report yet, so
                        I'll accept his claim at face value.) According to Gross, the report
                        states that the following categories of Polish citizens were affected
                        by the four mass deportations:

                        February 1940
                        In towns: civl servants, local government officials, judges, members
                        of the police force.
                        In the country: forest workers, osadnicy and small farmers-Polish,
                        Ukrainian and Belorussian.

                        April 1940
                        The families of persons previously arrested, the families of those who
                        had escaped abroad or were missing, tradesmen, farm labourers from
                        confiscated estates and more small farmers of the 3 nationalities.

                        June 1940
                        Practically all Polish citizens who, in September 1939, had sought
                        refuge in eastern Poland from the advancing German forces, small
                        merchants, doctors, engineers, lawyers, journalists, artists,
                        university professors, teachers etc..

                        June 1941
                        All those persons belonging to the categories who had so far evaded
                        deportation; children from summer camps and orphanages.

                        I have paraphrased what Gross wrote in the book, but, at face value,
                        this listing seems plausible and fits my (admittedly narrow)
                        understanding of the deportations. The criteria seem to fit the
                        general order issued to the NKVD. I'll try to track down the source
                        that he uses. As I say, I take it at face value, neither agreeing or
                        disagreeing.

                        So, at face value, I have the WHO. For the time being, I accept the
                        historical view of WHY it was done. My interest is squarely on the
                        HOW it was done.

                        Much has been written about the way the Nazis, and in particular Adolf
                        Eichmann, conducted their "Final Solution' but nobody, to my
                        knowledge, has really examined how the Soviets went about the business
                        of deportation, until this book. Is there a comparison to be made?
                        Did the Nazis look at the Soviet method and adapt it to their own
                        ends? I don't know.

                        When you look at the logistics of moving a mass of people, the
                        minutiae of arranging the timing of the operation, putting the troops
                        in position, preparing rolling stock and locomotives, identifying and
                        assembling the people, transporting them to the railway station and
                        all the other details, the task is immensely complicated for the
                        organisers, no matter how much 'experience' they have.

                        Also bear in mind that the majority of freight was sent by rail at the
                        time. Modern containers on modern vehicles did not exist, ar freight
                        was far too expensive for anything other than the most luxurious of
                        goods, the railway system was the lifeblood of a country. Disrupt the
                        railway system and the availability of essential staples such as
                        grain, sugar, salt, coal etc would soon become scarce. The
                        countryside around a medium-sized city can only provide so much to it,
                        a lot of the goods have to be imported from somewhere in the country.

                        So that is my fascination, HOW did they go about doing all this?
                        Gross' book provides a great deal of information. He is very
                        anti-Polish, but with some difficulty, I can get past that and get a
                        description of HOW the Soviets conducted their task.

                        The one statement he makes in his book that has really stuck in my
                        craw so far is his translation of 'Pan'. He only assigns two meanings
                        - "Mister" and "Master" and completely ignores the fact that in
                        general polite conversation with a male, "pan" without a name would be
                        translated as "sir".

                        I hope this particular thread isn't too off-topic for our members.
                        Please let me know if you feel it is and I'll drop it in the general
                        forum. I'm more than willing to continue it with any interested
                        parties via private email.

                        By the way, just to lighten up a bit, it's midday here on the Gold
                        Coast in Queensland, overcast with brief showers, slight breeze and a
                        balmy 28 degrees Centigrade. Jealous yet????

                        Warm regards,

                        Zdzis

                        Runaway Bay
                        Queensland
                        Australia


                        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Fedzin"
                        <ken.fedzin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                        > <znowicki@> wrote:
                        > I'm more interested in
                        > > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.
                        >
                        > Hi Zdzislaw,
                        >
                        > I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                        > disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                        > offer it from my own researching...
                        >
                        > The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers
                        > of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept untold
                        > millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and
                        > everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well
                        > practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.
                        >
                        > Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                        > Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                        > Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                        > correspondence/documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                        > which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a court
                        > record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                        > These records are therefore still kept in archives today!
                        >
                        > With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                        > offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of
                        > compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                        > just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                        > task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                        > people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                        > invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                        > administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                        > his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                        > offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access
                        > to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                        > excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and
                        > families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/professors and
                        > their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had
                        > served in the military.
                        >
                        > A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)
                        > in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from 'Memorial'
                        > in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                        > NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                        > with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                        > of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                        > deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                        > lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed
                        > following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy
                        > a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                        > year and place of birth?
                        >
                        > The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                        > correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                        > October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                        > the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and
                        > written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                        > the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                        > were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them
                        > in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all the
                        > members of the families on their lists.
                        >
                        > Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some
                        > avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                        > time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby
                        > daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                        > not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                        > too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district
                        > and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                        > village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She
                        > was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.
                        >
                        > The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                        > them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                        > possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                        > regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                        > rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                        > labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                        > Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                        > their own folk.
                        >
                        > They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the
                        > will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                        > excercise as deporting Poles.
                        >
                        > Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                        > 1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having long
                        > since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                        > already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.
                        >
                        > Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                        > also be of interest/help to other members.
                        >
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Ken Fedzin
                        > Dewsbury
                        > England
                        >
                      • RICHARD KASPRZAK
                        As I wrote earlier, when my father was picked up, the nkvd had dossiers on hs whole family.All got sent to the camps.  
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 31, 2009
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                          As I wrote earlier, when my father was picked up, the nkvd had dossiers on hs whole family.All got sent to the camps.
                           
                                                                                           Rysiek

                          --- On Fri, 1/30/09, Kenneth Fedzin <ken.fedzin@...> wrote:

                          From: Kenneth Fedzin <ken.fedzin@...>
                          Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 7:41 PM






                          --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                          <znowicki@.. .> wrote:
                          I'm more interested in
                          > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.

                          Hi Zdzislaw,

                          I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                          disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                          offer it from my own researching. ..

                          The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers
                          of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept untold
                          millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and
                          everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well
                          practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.

                          Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                          Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                          Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                          correspondence/ documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                          which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a court
                          record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                          These records are therefore still kept in archives today!

                          With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                          offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of
                          compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                          just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                          task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                          people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                          invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                          administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                          his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                          offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access
                          to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                          excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and
                          families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/ professors and
                          their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had
                          served in the military.

                          A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)
                          in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from 'Memorial'
                          in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                          NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                          with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                          of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                          deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                          lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed
                          following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy
                          a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                          year and place of birth?

                          The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                          correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                          October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                          the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and
                          written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                          the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                          were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them
                          in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all the
                          members of the families on their lists.

                          Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some
                          avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                          time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby
                          daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                          not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                          too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district
                          and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                          village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She
                          was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.

                          The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                          them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                          possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                          regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                          rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                          labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                          Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                          their own folk.

                          They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the
                          will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                          excercise as deporting Poles.

                          Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                          1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having long
                          since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                          already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.

                          Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                          also be of interest/help to other members.

                          Regards,
                          Ken Fedzin
                          Dewsbury
                          England















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • stefan.wisniowski@kresy-siberia.org
                          Zdzis I read this book early in my research and have detected no anti-Polish bias - it is focussed on HOW does a totalitarian communist regime impose its
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 31, 2009
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                            Zdzis

                            I read this book early in my research and have detected no anti-Polish bias - it is focussed on HOW does a totalitarian communist regime impose its system on a conquered population that does not want it.

                            Are you sure you are not reflecting his later work and reputation, which has been criticized as to methodology by qualified historians? I have seen no adverse criticism of this book until I read your assessment. What do you base this on?

                            Stefan Wisniowski
                            Sydney
                            Sent from my BlackBerry� from Optus

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: "Zdzislaw Nowicki" <znowicki@...>

                            Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:20:23
                            To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery


                            Hi Ken,

                            Thanks for that. I must confess that I've become seriously interested
                            in HOW the Soviets did these things. I'm aware that the Russians
                            (Tsarist and Soviet) have a long history in keeping the population
                            under control by the threat of exile to Siberia (I know that's a broad
                            statement, but bear with me.)I understand the broad aspects of
                            registering people, after all, if you know who people are and where
                            they reside, it's relatively easy to find them. That's a given, but I
                            want to go a bit deeper than registered first then deported...

                            Just to sidetrack a little and I hope this answers Pani Monika's
                            earlier post. On the question of who was deported, Gross claims to use
                            a report produced by the Polish embassy in August 1943 after it was
                            evacuated from the USSR to Teheran (I haven't read this report yet, so
                            I'll accept his claim at face value.) According to Gross, the report
                            states that the following categories of Polish citizens were affected
                            by the four mass deportations:

                            February 1940
                            In towns: civl servants, local government officials, judges, members
                            of the police force.
                            In the country: forest workers, osadnicy and small farmers-Polish,
                            Ukrainian and Belorussian.

                            April 1940
                            The families of persons previously arrested, the families of those who
                            had escaped abroad or were missing, tradesmen, farm labourers from
                            confiscated estates and more small farmers of the 3 nationalities.

                            June 1940
                            Practically all Polish citizens who, in September 1939, had sought
                            refuge in eastern Poland from the advancing German forces, small
                            merchants, doctors, engineers, lawyers, journalists, artists,
                            university professors, teachers etc..

                            June 1941
                            All those persons belonging to the categories who had so far evaded
                            deportation; children from summer camps and orphanages.

                            I have paraphrased what Gross wrote in the book, but, at face value,
                            this listing seems plausible and fits my (admittedly narrow)
                            understanding of the deportations. The criteria seem to fit the
                            general order issued to the NKVD. I'll try to track down the source
                            that he uses. As I say, I take it at face value, neither agreeing or
                            disagreeing.

                            So, at face value, I have the WHO. For the time being, I accept the
                            historical view of WHY it was done. My interest is squarely on the
                            HOW it was done.

                            Much has been written about the way the Nazis, and in particular Adolf
                            Eichmann, conducted their "Final Solution' but nobody, to my
                            knowledge, has really examined how the Soviets went about the business
                            of deportation, until this book. Is there a comparison to be made?
                            Did the Nazis look at the Soviet method and adapt it to their own
                            ends? I don't know.

                            When you look at the logistics of moving a mass of people, the
                            minutiae of arranging the timing of the operation, putting the troops
                            in position, preparing rolling stock and locomotives, identifying and
                            assembling the people, transporting them to the railway station and
                            all the other details, the task is immensely complicated for the
                            organisers, no matter how much 'experience' they have.

                            Also bear in mind that the majority of freight was sent by rail at the
                            time. Modern containers on modern vehicles did not exist, ar freight
                            was far too expensive for anything other than the most luxurious of
                            goods, the railway system was the lifeblood of a country. Disrupt the
                            railway system and the availability of essential staples such as
                            grain, sugar, salt, coal etc would soon become scarce. The
                            countryside around a medium-sized city can only provide so much to it,
                            a lot of the goods have to be imported from somewhere in the country.

                            So that is my fascination, HOW did they go about doing all this?
                            Gross' book provides a great deal of information. He is very
                            anti-Polish, but with some difficulty, I can get past that and get a
                            description of HOW the Soviets conducted their task.

                            The one statement he makes in his book that has really stuck in my
                            craw so far is his translation of 'Pan'. He only assigns two meanings
                            - "Mister" and "Master" and completely ignores the fact that in
                            general polite conversation with a male, "pan" without a name would be
                            translated as "sir".

                            I hope this particular thread isn't too off-topic for our members.
                            Please let me know if you feel it is and I'll drop it in the general
                            forum. I'm more than willing to continue it with any interested
                            parties via private email.

                            By the way, just to lighten up a bit, it's midday here on the Gold
                            Coast in Queensland, overcast with brief showers, slight breeze and a
                            balmy 28 degrees Centigrade. Jealous yet????

                            Warm regards,

                            Zdzis

                            Runaway Bay
                            Queensland
                            Australia


                            --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Fedzin"
                            <ken.fedzin@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                            > <znowicki@> wrote:
                            > I'm more interested in
                            > > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.
                            >
                            > Hi Zdzislaw,
                            >
                            > I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                            > disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                            > offer it from my own researching...
                            >
                            > The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers
                            > of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept untold
                            > millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and
                            > everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well
                            > practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.
                            >
                            > Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                            > Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                            > Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                            > correspondence/documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                            > which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a court
                            > record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                            > These records are therefore still kept in archives today!
                            >
                            > With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                            > offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of
                            > compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                            > just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                            > task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                            > people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                            > invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                            > administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                            > his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                            > offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access
                            > to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                            > excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and
                            > families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/professors and
                            > their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had
                            > served in the military.
                            >
                            > A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)
                            > in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from 'Memorial'
                            > in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                            > NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                            > with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                            > of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                            > deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                            > lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed
                            > following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy
                            > a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                            > year and place of birth?
                            >
                            > The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                            > correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                            > October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                            > the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and
                            > written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                            > the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                            > were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them
                            > in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all the
                            > members of the families on their lists.
                            >
                            > Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some
                            > avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                            > time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby
                            > daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                            > not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                            > too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district
                            > and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                            > village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She
                            > was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.
                            >
                            > The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                            > them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                            > possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                            > regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                            > rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                            > labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                            > Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                            > their own folk.
                            >
                            > They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the
                            > will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                            > excercise as deporting Poles.
                            >
                            > Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                            > 1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having long
                            > since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                            > already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.
                            >
                            > Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                            > also be of interest/help to other members.
                            >
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Ken Fedzin
                            > Dewsbury
                            > England
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Kenneth Fedzin
                            ... My interest is squarely on the ... troops ... and ... the ... the ... Hi Zdzislaw, I ve extracted some of your points (above) with regard to the HOW. Yes,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 31, 2009
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                              --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                              <znowicki@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "Hi Ken,
                              >
                              > Thanks for that... but I
                              > want to go a bit deeper than registered first then deported...
                              My interest is squarely on the
                              > HOW it was done...
                              > When you look at the logistics of moving a mass of people, the
                              > minutiae of arranging the timing of the operation, putting the
                              troops
                              > in position, preparing rolling stock and locomotives, identifying
                              and
                              > assembling the people, transporting them to the railway station and
                              > all the other details, the task is immensely complicated for the
                              > organisers, no matter how much 'experience' they have.
                              >
                              > Also bear in mind that the majority of freight was sent by rail at
                              the
                              > time... the railway system was the lifeblood of a country. Disrupt
                              the
                              > railway system and the availability of essential staples such as
                              > grain, sugar, salt, coal etc would soon become scarce."

                              Hi Zdzislaw,

                              I've extracted some of your points (above) with regard to the HOW.

                              Yes, it was a complicated logistical operation. But put it into
                              perspective with a country the size of Russia and the entire Soviet
                              Union and the scale of its railway system.

                              If we say that approx. 1.5million were deported in 1940/41 and there
                              were between 1,000 - 1,500 persons on each transport, this would mean
                              about 1,000 - 1,500 trains in total would be required. So, let's
                              guess at some 1,200 trains over the four major deportations. That's
                              only about 300 trains on each spread over some sixteen months. With a
                              round trip of app. 6-8 weeks it is almost conceivable that the same
                              300 trains could have been used on each. Highly unlikely I know, but
                              you get my point. The entire operation would have engaged only around
                              300 trains at any one time. A tiny number of the trains at their
                              disposal at that time.

                              Yes, the railway system at the time would have been "the lifeblood of
                              the country". But we know too well from experience that the well-
                              being of its citizens did not figure too highly on the Soviet
                              leaderships list of priorities. The ordinary 'man on the street' in
                              the Soviet Union had nothing anyway and were used to being without
                              basic necessities. So they wouldn't have noticed, or felt the impact
                              of someone tying up 300 trains.

                              In chapters 21 to 23 of his book 'Icebreaker', Viktor Sukorov claims
                              that around Feb-June 1941 the Soviet military machine was 'secretly'
                              concentrating vast numbers of troops on the western frontier.
                              [Sukorov puts forward the interesting notion that Stalin was
                              preparing to invade Germany, but Hitler, who was wary, caught Stalin
                              by surprise and struck first on 22 June 1941] Sukorov writes, "The
                              railways, which were the country's principal means of transport, were
                              paralysed for almost six months by these secret military movements."

                              Sukorov also quotes from the book 'The promise which Hitler kept' by
                              Polish author Stefan Stsende who was in Lvov in early June
                              1941..."Military trains crammed full of troops and military equipment
                              passed with increasing frequency through Lvovheading westwards... at
                              the railway station all traffic was purely military."

                              Many divisions and whole armies were moving westward. Sukorov
                              describes it as if the entire Red Army was on the move. Qouting from
                              various sources Sukorov writes, "By the end of June 1941 there were
                              1,320 trains laden with motor vehicles standing on the railways". And
                              from another source, "At the small railway station of Kalinovka
                              alone, the South-West front had 1,500 wagons laden with ammunition."
                              And another, "About 8,500 railway cistern wagons, all containing
                              fuel,piled up at railway junctions and even at halts between
                              stations."

                              If the numbers Sukarov quotes are to be believed, then mobilizing 300
                              trains is not actually too big an ask. Add to this Sukarov's
                              description of the mindset in Soviet society at that time... "The
                              army, navy, secret police, concentration camps, industry, transport,
                              agriculture and the entire population of the Soviet Union formed part
                              of the state system. ... Stalin's empire was centralized like no
                              other and, particularly after the Great Purge, the mechanism of state
                              government was built in such a way that any order was immediately
                              transmitted from the highest level down to the lowest functionaries,
                              who rigorously carried it out."

                              "...who rigorously carried it out." I guess that's HOW it was done.
                              It HAD to be done (by order of Stalin),they had the means to do it
                              and the ultimate motivation. Failure to carry it out successfully was
                              an option met only with the gravest of consequences for those
                              concerned.

                              Regards,
                              Ken Fedzin
                              Dewsbury
                              England
                            • Zdzislaw Nowicki
                              Hmmm, you could be right and my judgement is clouded by the fact that I read his book Neighbors a few days ago, just before Revolution from abroad Having
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                Hmmm, you could be right and my judgement is clouded by the fact that
                                I read his book 'Neighbors" a few days ago, just before "Revolution
                                from abroad"

                                Having taken your metaphorical 'kick in the pants', I have re-read the
                                book and approached it with a fresh outlook. Thank you for gently
                                steering me back on course. It's still a gem of a book concerning HOW
                                the Soviets went about their task and very informative.

                                Warm regards,

                                Zdzis,

                                Runaway Bay
                                Queensland
                                Australia


                                --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, stefan.wisniowski@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Zdzis
                                >
                                > I read this book early in my research and have detected no
                                anti-Polish bias - it is focussed on HOW does a totalitarian communist
                                regime impose its system on a conquered population that does not want it.
                                >
                                > Are you sure you are not reflecting his later work and reputation,
                                which has been criticized as to methodology by qualified historians? I
                                have seen no adverse criticism of this book until I read your
                                assessment. What do you base this on?
                                >
                                > Stefan Wisniowski
                                > Sydney
                                > Sent from my BlackBerry® from Optus
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: "Zdzislaw Nowicki" <znowicki@...>
                                >
                                > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:20:23
                                > To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Ken,
                                >
                                > Thanks for that. I must confess that I've become seriously interested
                                > in HOW the Soviets did these things. I'm aware that the Russians
                                > (Tsarist and Soviet) have a long history in keeping the population
                                > under control by the threat of exile to Siberia (I know that's a broad
                                > statement, but bear with me.)I understand the broad aspects of
                                > registering people, after all, if you know who people are and where
                                > they reside, it's relatively easy to find them. That's a given, but I
                                > want to go a bit deeper than registered first then deported...
                                >
                                > Just to sidetrack a little and I hope this answers Pani Monika's
                                > earlier post. On the question of who was deported, Gross claims to use
                                > a report produced by the Polish embassy in August 1943 after it was
                                > evacuated from the USSR to Teheran (I haven't read this report yet, so
                                > I'll accept his claim at face value.) According to Gross, the report
                                > states that the following categories of Polish citizens were affected
                                > by the four mass deportations:
                                >
                                > February 1940
                                > In towns: civl servants, local government officials, judges, members
                                > of the police force.
                                > In the country: forest workers, osadnicy and small farmers-Polish,
                                > Ukrainian and Belorussian.
                                >
                                > April 1940
                                > The families of persons previously arrested, the families of those who
                                > had escaped abroad or were missing, tradesmen, farm labourers from
                                > confiscated estates and more small farmers of the 3 nationalities.
                                >
                                > June 1940
                                > Practically all Polish citizens who, in September 1939, had sought
                                > refuge in eastern Poland from the advancing German forces, small
                                > merchants, doctors, engineers, lawyers, journalists, artists,
                                > university professors, teachers etc..
                                >
                                > June 1941
                                > All those persons belonging to the categories who had so far evaded
                                > deportation; children from summer camps and orphanages.
                                >
                                > I have paraphrased what Gross wrote in the book, but, at face value,
                                > this listing seems plausible and fits my (admittedly narrow)
                                > understanding of the deportations. The criteria seem to fit the
                                > general order issued to the NKVD. I'll try to track down the source
                                > that he uses. As I say, I take it at face value, neither agreeing or
                                > disagreeing.
                                >
                                > So, at face value, I have the WHO. For the time being, I accept the
                                > historical view of WHY it was done. My interest is squarely on the
                                > HOW it was done.
                                >
                                > Much has been written about the way the Nazis, and in particular Adolf
                                > Eichmann, conducted their "Final Solution' but nobody, to my
                                > knowledge, has really examined how the Soviets went about the business
                                > of deportation, until this book. Is there a comparison to be made?
                                > Did the Nazis look at the Soviet method and adapt it to their own
                                > ends? I don't know.
                                >
                                > When you look at the logistics of moving a mass of people, the
                                > minutiae of arranging the timing of the operation, putting the troops
                                > in position, preparing rolling stock and locomotives, identifying and
                                > assembling the people, transporting them to the railway station and
                                > all the other details, the task is immensely complicated for the
                                > organisers, no matter how much 'experience' they have.
                                >
                                > Also bear in mind that the majority of freight was sent by rail at the
                                > time. Modern containers on modern vehicles did not exist, ar freight
                                > was far too expensive for anything other than the most luxurious of
                                > goods, the railway system was the lifeblood of a country. Disrupt the
                                > railway system and the availability of essential staples such as
                                > grain, sugar, salt, coal etc would soon become scarce. The
                                > countryside around a medium-sized city can only provide so much to it,
                                > a lot of the goods have to be imported from somewhere in the country.
                                >
                                > So that is my fascination, HOW did they go about doing all this?
                                > Gross' book provides a great deal of information. He is very
                                > anti-Polish, but with some difficulty, I can get past that and get a
                                > description of HOW the Soviets conducted their task.
                                >
                                > The one statement he makes in his book that has really stuck in my
                                > craw so far is his translation of 'Pan'. He only assigns two meanings
                                > - "Mister" and "Master" and completely ignores the fact that in
                                > general polite conversation with a male, "pan" without a name would be
                                > translated as "sir".
                                >
                                > I hope this particular thread isn't too off-topic for our members.
                                > Please let me know if you feel it is and I'll drop it in the general
                                > forum. I'm more than willing to continue it with any interested
                                > parties via private email.
                                >
                                > By the way, just to lighten up a bit, it's midday here on the Gold
                                > Coast in Queensland, overcast with brief showers, slight breeze and a
                                > balmy 28 degrees Centigrade. Jealous yet????
                                >
                                > Warm regards,
                                >
                                > Zdzis
                                >
                                > Runaway Bay
                                > Queensland
                                > Australia
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Fedzin"
                                > <ken.fedzin@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                                > > <znowicki@> wrote:
                                > > I'm more interested in
                                > > > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.
                                > >
                                > > Hi Zdzislaw,
                                > >
                                > > I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                                > > disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                                > > offer it from my own researching...
                                > >
                                > > The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers
                                > > of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept untold
                                > > millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and
                                > > everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well
                                > > practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.
                                > >
                                > > Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                                > > Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                                > > Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                                > > correspondence/documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                                > > which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a court
                                > > record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                                > > These records are therefore still kept in archives today!
                                > >
                                > > With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                                > > offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of
                                > > compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                                > > just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                                > > task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                                > > people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                                > > invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                                > > administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                                > > his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                                > > offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access
                                > > to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                                > > excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and
                                > > families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/professors and
                                > > their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had
                                > > served in the military.
                                > >
                                > > A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)
                                > > in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from 'Memorial'
                                > > in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                                > > NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                                > > with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                                > > of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                                > > deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                                > > lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed
                                > > following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy
                                > > a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                                > > year and place of birth?
                                > >
                                > > The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                                > > correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                                > > October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                                > > the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and
                                > > written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                                > > the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                                > > were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them
                                > > in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all the
                                > > members of the families on their lists.
                                > >
                                > > Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some
                                > > avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                                > > time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby
                                > > daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                                > > not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                                > > too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district
                                > > and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                                > > village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She
                                > > was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.
                                > >
                                > > The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                                > > them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                                > > possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                                > > regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                                > > rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                                > > labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                                > > Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                                > > their own folk.
                                > >
                                > > They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the
                                > > will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                                > > excercise as deporting Poles.
                                > >
                                > > Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                                > > 1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having long
                                > > since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                                > > already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.
                                > >
                                > > Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                                > > also be of interest/help to other members.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Regards,
                                > > Ken Fedzin
                                > > Dewsbury
                                > > England
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Thyme Trax
                                Witaj Zdzislaw; did a quick search to the referenced book and discovered a correction in the Preface in the Expanded Edition  to the first edition. Please
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                  Witaj Zdzislaw;
                                  did a quick search to the referenced book and discovered a correction in the Preface in the Expanded Edition  to the first edition. Please note the writer states   "deported numbers have been adjusted from estimated half a million to 309,000-327,000."  hmmm, any comments? ......
                                  http://books.google.ca/books?id=XKtOr4EXOWwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Revolution+from+abroad#PPR14,M1
                                  pozdrawiam Krysia Styrna
                                   


                                   
                                   

                                  --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...> wrote:

                                  From: Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...>
                                  Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                                  To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 5:12 AM






                                  Hmmm, you could be right and my judgement is clouded by the fact that
                                  I read his book 'Neighbors" a few days ago, just before "Revolution
                                  from abroad"

                                  Having taken your metaphorical 'kick in the pants', I have re-read the
                                  book and approached it with a fresh outlook. Thank you for gently
                                  steering me back on course. It's still a gem of a book concerning HOW
                                  the Soviets went about their task and very informative.

                                  Warm regards,

                                  Zdzis,

                                  Runaway Bay
                                  Queensland
                                  Australia

                                  --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, stefan.wisniowski@ ... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Zdzis
                                  >
                                  > I read this book early in my research and have detected no
                                  anti-Polish bias - it is focussed on HOW does a totalitarian communist
                                  regime impose its system on a conquered population that does not want it.
                                  >
                                  > Are you sure you are not reflecting his later work and reputation,
                                  which has been criticized as to methodology by qualified historians? I
                                  have seen no adverse criticism of this book until I read your
                                  assessment. What do you base this on?
                                  >
                                  > Stefan Wisniowski
                                  > Sydney
                                  > Sent from my BlackBerry® from Optus
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: "Zdzislaw Nowicki" <znowicki@.. .>
                                  >
                                  > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:20:23
                                  > To: <Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com>
                                  > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Ken,
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for that. I must confess that I've become seriously interested
                                  > in HOW the Soviets did these things. I'm aware that the Russians
                                  > (Tsarist and Soviet) have a long history in keeping the population
                                  > under control by the threat of exile to Siberia (I know that's a broad
                                  > statement, but bear with me.)I understand the broad aspects of
                                  > registering people, after all, if you know who people are and where
                                  > they reside, it's relatively easy to find them. That's a given, but I
                                  > want to go a bit deeper than registered first then deported...
                                  >
                                  > Just to sidetrack a little and I hope this answers Pani Monika's
                                  > earlier post. On the question of who was deported, Gross claims to use
                                  > a report produced by the Polish embassy in August 1943 after it was
                                  > evacuated from the USSR to Teheran (I haven't read this report yet, so
                                  > I'll accept his claim at face value.) According to Gross, the report
                                  > states that the following categories of Polish citizens were affected
                                  > by the four mass deportations:
                                  >
                                  > February 1940
                                  > In towns: civl servants, local government officials, judges, members
                                  > of the police force.
                                  > In the country: forest workers, osadnicy and small farmers-Polish,
                                  > Ukrainian and Belorussian.
                                  >
                                  > April 1940
                                  > The families of persons previously arrested, the families of those who
                                  > had escaped abroad or were missing, tradesmen, farm labourers from
                                  > confiscated estates and more small farmers of the 3 nationalities.
                                  >
                                  > June 1940
                                  > Practically all Polish citizens who, in September 1939, had sought
                                  > refuge in eastern Poland from the advancing German forces, small
                                  > merchants, doctors, engineers, lawyers, journalists, artists,
                                  > university professors, teachers etc..
                                  >
                                  > June 1941
                                  > All those persons belonging to the categories who had so far evaded
                                  > deportation; children from summer camps and orphanages.
                                  >
                                  > I have paraphrased what Gross wrote in the book, but, at face value,
                                  > this listing seems plausible and fits my (admittedly narrow)
                                  > understanding of the deportations. The criteria seem to fit the
                                  > general order issued to the NKVD. I'll try to track down the source
                                  > that he uses. As I say, I take it at face value, neither agreeing or
                                  > disagreeing.
                                  >
                                  > So, at face value, I have the WHO. For the time being, I accept the
                                  > historical view of WHY it was done. My interest is squarely on the
                                  > HOW it was done.
                                  >
                                  > Much has been written about the way the Nazis, and in particular Adolf
                                  > Eichmann, conducted their "Final Solution' but nobody, to my
                                  > knowledge, has really examined how the Soviets went about the business
                                  > of deportation, until this book. Is there a comparison to be made?
                                  > Did the Nazis look at the Soviet method and adapt it to their own
                                  > ends? I don't know.
                                  >
                                  > When you look at the logistics of moving a mass of people, the
                                  > minutiae of arranging the timing of the operation, putting the troops
                                  > in position, preparing rolling stock and locomotives, identifying and
                                  > assembling the people, transporting them to the railway station and
                                  > all the other details, the task is immensely complicated for the
                                  > organisers, no matter how much 'experience' they have.
                                  >
                                  > Also bear in mind that the majority of freight was sent by rail at the
                                  > time. Modern containers on modern vehicles did not exist, ar freight
                                  > was far too expensive for anything other than the most luxurious of
                                  > goods, the railway system was the lifeblood of a country. Disrupt the
                                  > railway system and the availability of essential staples such as
                                  > grain, sugar, salt, coal etc would soon become scarce. The
                                  > countryside around a medium-sized city can only provide so much to it,
                                  > a lot of the goods have to be imported from somewhere in the country.
                                  >
                                  > So that is my fascination, HOW did they go about doing all this?
                                  > Gross' book provides a great deal of information. He is very
                                  > anti-Polish, but with some difficulty, I can get past that and get a
                                  > description of HOW the Soviets conducted their task.
                                  >
                                  > The one statement he makes in his book that has really stuck in my
                                  > craw so far is his translation of 'Pan'. He only assigns two meanings
                                  > - "Mister" and "Master" and completely ignores the fact that in
                                  > general polite conversation with a male, "pan" without a name would be
                                  > translated as "sir".
                                  >
                                  > I hope this particular thread isn't too off-topic for our members.
                                  > Please let me know if you feel it is and I'll drop it in the general
                                  > forum. I'm more than willing to continue it with any interested
                                  > parties via private email.
                                  >
                                  > By the way, just to lighten up a bit, it's midday here on the Gold
                                  > Coast in Queensland, overcast with brief showers, slight breeze and a
                                  > balmy 28 degrees Centigrade. Jealous yet????
                                  >
                                  > Warm regards,
                                  >
                                  > Zdzis
                                  >
                                  > Runaway Bay
                                  > Queensland
                                  > Australia
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Kenneth Fedzin"
                                  > <ken.fedzin@ > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                                  > > <znowicki@> wrote:
                                  > > I'm more interested in
                                  > > > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Zdzislaw,
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                                  > > disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                                  > > offer it from my own researching. ..
                                  > >
                                  > > The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers
                                  > > of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept untold
                                  > > millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and
                                  > > everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well
                                  > > practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.
                                  > >
                                  > > Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                                  > > Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                                  > > Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                                  > > correspondence/ documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                                  > > which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a court
                                  > > record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                                  > > These records are therefore still kept in archives today!
                                  > >
                                  > > With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                                  > > offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of
                                  > > compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                                  > > just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                                  > > task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                                  > > people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                                  > > invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                                  > > administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                                  > > his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                                  > > offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access
                                  > > to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                                  > > excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and
                                  > > families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/ professors and
                                  > > their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had
                                  > > served in the military.
                                  > >
                                  > > A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)
                                  > > in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from 'Memorial'
                                  > > in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                                  > > NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                                  > > with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                                  > > of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                                  > > deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                                  > > lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed
                                  > > following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy
                                  > > a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                                  > > year and place of birth?
                                  > >
                                  > > The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                                  > > correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                                  > > October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                                  > > the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and
                                  > > written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                                  > > the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                                  > > were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them
                                  > > in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all the
                                  > > members of the families on their lists.
                                  > >
                                  > > Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some
                                  > > avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                                  > > time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby
                                  > > daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                                  > > not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                                  > > too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district
                                  > > and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                                  > > village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She
                                  > > was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.
                                  > >
                                  > > The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                                  > > them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                                  > > possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                                  > > regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                                  > > rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                                  > > labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                                  > > Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                                  > > their own folk.
                                  > >
                                  > > They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the
                                  > > will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                                  > > excercise as deporting Poles.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                                  > > 1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having long
                                  > > since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                                  > > already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.
                                  > >
                                  > > Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                                  > > also be of interest/help to other members.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards,
                                  > > Ken Fedzin
                                  > > Dewsbury
                                  > > England
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >


















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • stefan.wisniowski@kresy-siberia.org
                                  Oh no, not the numbers debate again! Stefan Sent from my BlackBerry® from Optus ... From: Thyme Trax Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 07:07:11 To:
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 1, 2009
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Oh no, not the numbers debate again!

                                    Stefan
                                    Sent from my BlackBerry� from Optus

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Thyme Trax <thymetrax@...>

                                    Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 07:07:11
                                    To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery-Revolution from Abroad


                                    Witaj Zdzislaw;
                                    did a quick search to the referenced book and discovered a correction in the Preface in the Expanded Edition �to the first edition. Please note the writer�states�� "deported numbers have been adjusted from estimated half a million to 309,000-327,000."� hmmm, any comments? ......
                                    http://books.google.ca/books?id=XKtOr4EXOWwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Revolution+from+abroad#PPR14,M1
                                    pozdrawiam Krysia Styrna






                                    --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...> wrote:

                                    From: Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...>
                                    Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 5:12 AM






                                    Hmmm, you could be right and my judgement is clouded by the fact that
                                    I read his book 'Neighbors" a few days ago, just before "Revolution
                                    from abroad"

                                    Having taken your metaphorical 'kick in the pants', I have re-read the
                                    book and approached it with a fresh outlook. Thank you for gently
                                    steering me back on course. It's still a gem of a book concerning HOW
                                    the Soviets went about their task and very informative.

                                    Warm regards,

                                    Zdzis,

                                    Runaway Bay
                                    Queensland
                                    Australia

                                    --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, stefan.wisniowski@ ... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Zdzis
                                    >
                                    > I read this book early in my research and have detected no
                                    anti-Polish bias - it is focussed on HOW does a totalitarian communist
                                    regime impose its system on a conquered population that does not want it.
                                    >
                                    > Are you sure you are not reflecting his later work and reputation,
                                    which has been criticized as to methodology by qualified historians? I
                                    have seen no adverse criticism of this book until I read your
                                    assessment. What do you base this on?
                                    >
                                    > Stefan Wisniowski
                                    > Sydney
                                    > Sent from my BlackBerry� from Optus
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: "Zdzislaw Nowicki" <znowicki@.. .>
                                    >
                                    > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:20:23
                                    > To: <Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com>
                                    > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Ken,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for that. I must confess that I've become seriously interested
                                    > in HOW the Soviets did these things. I'm aware that the Russians
                                    > (Tsarist and Soviet) have a long history in keeping the population
                                    > under control by the threat of exile to Siberia (I know that's a broad
                                    > statement, but bear with me.)I understand the broad aspects of
                                    > registering people, after all, if you know who people are and where
                                    > they reside, it's relatively easy to find them. That's a given, but I
                                    > want to go a bit deeper than registered first then deported...
                                    >
                                    > Just to sidetrack a little and I hope this answers Pani Monika's
                                    > earlier post. On the question of who was deported, Gross claims to use
                                    > a report produced by the Polish embassy in August 1943 after it was
                                    > evacuated from the USSR to Teheran (I haven't read this report yet, so
                                    > I'll accept his claim at face value.) According to Gross, the report
                                    > states that the following categories of Polish citizens were affected
                                    > by the four mass deportations:
                                    >
                                    > February 1940
                                    > In towns: civl servants, local government officials, judges, members
                                    > of the police force.
                                    > In the country: forest workers, osadnicy and small farmers-Polish,
                                    > Ukrainian and Belorussian.
                                    >
                                    > April 1940
                                    > The families of persons previously arrested, the families of those who
                                    > had escaped abroad or were missing, tradesmen, farm labourers from
                                    > confiscated estates and more small farmers of the 3 nationalities.
                                    >
                                    > June 1940
                                    > Practically all Polish citizens who, in September 1939, had sought
                                    > refuge in eastern Poland from the advancing German forces, small
                                    > merchants, doctors, engineers, lawyers, journalists, artists,
                                    > university professors, teachers etc..
                                    >
                                    > June 1941
                                    > All those persons belonging to the categories who had so far evaded
                                    > deportation; children from summer camps and orphanages.
                                    >
                                    > I have paraphrased what Gross wrote in the book, but, at face value,
                                    > this listing seems plausible and fits my (admittedly narrow)
                                    > understanding of the deportations. The criteria seem to fit the
                                    > general order issued to the NKVD. I'll try to track down the source
                                    > that he uses. As I say, I take it at face value, neither agreeing or
                                    > disagreeing.
                                    >
                                    > So, at face value, I have the WHO. For the time being, I accept the
                                    > historical view of WHY it was done. My interest is squarely on the
                                    > HOW it was done.
                                    >
                                    > Much has been written about the way the Nazis, and in particular Adolf
                                    > Eichmann, conducted their "Final Solution' but nobody, to my
                                    > knowledge, has really examined how the Soviets went about the business
                                    > of deportation, until this book. Is there a comparison to be made?
                                    > Did the Nazis look at the Soviet method and adapt it to their own
                                    > ends? I don't know.
                                    >
                                    > When you look at the logistics of moving a mass of people, the
                                    > minutiae of arranging the timing of the operation, putting the troops
                                    > in position, preparing rolling stock and locomotives, identifying and
                                    > assembling the people, transporting them to the railway station and
                                    > all the other details, the task is immensely complicated for the
                                    > organisers, no matter how much 'experience' they have.
                                    >
                                    > Also bear in mind that the majority of freight was sent by rail at the
                                    > time. Modern containers on modern vehicles did not exist, ar freight
                                    > was far too expensive for anything other than the most luxurious of
                                    > goods, the railway system was the lifeblood of a country. Disrupt the
                                    > railway system and the availability of essential staples such as
                                    > grain, sugar, salt, coal etc would soon become scarce. The
                                    > countryside around a medium-sized city can only provide so much to it,
                                    > a lot of the goods have to be imported from somewhere in the country.
                                    >
                                    > So that is my fascination, HOW did they go about doing all this?
                                    > Gross' book provides a great deal of information. He is very
                                    > anti-Polish, but with some difficulty, I can get past that and get a
                                    > description of HOW the Soviets conducted their task.
                                    >
                                    > The one statement he makes in his book that has really stuck in my
                                    > craw so far is his translation of 'Pan'. He only assigns two meanings
                                    > - "Mister" and "Master" and completely ignores the fact that in
                                    > general polite conversation with a male, "pan" without a name would be
                                    > translated as "sir".
                                    >
                                    > I hope this particular thread isn't too off-topic for our members.
                                    > Please let me know if you feel it is and I'll drop it in the general
                                    > forum. I'm more than willing to continue it with any interested
                                    > parties via private email.
                                    >
                                    > By the way, just to lighten up a bit, it's midday here on the Gold
                                    > Coast in Queensland, overcast with brief showers, slight breeze and a
                                    > balmy 28 degrees Centigrade. Jealous yet????
                                    >
                                    > Warm regards,
                                    >
                                    > Zdzis
                                    >
                                    > Runaway Bay
                                    > Queensland
                                    > Australia
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Kenneth Fedzin"
                                    > <ken.fedzin@ > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"
                                    > > <znowicki@> wrote:
                                    > > I'm more interested in
                                    > > > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Zdzislaw,
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                                    > > disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                                    > > offer it from my own researching. ..
                                    > >
                                    > > The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers
                                    > > of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept untold
                                    > > millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and
                                    > > everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well
                                    > > practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.
                                    > >
                                    > > Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                                    > > Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                                    > > Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                                    > > correspondence/ documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                                    > > which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a court
                                    > > record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                                    > > These records are therefore still kept in archives today!
                                    > >
                                    > > With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                                    > > offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of
                                    > > compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                                    > > just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                                    > > task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                                    > > people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                                    > > invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                                    > > administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                                    > > his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                                    > > offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access
                                    > > to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                                    > > excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and
                                    > > families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/ professors and
                                    > > their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had
                                    > > served in the military.
                                    > >
                                    > > A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)
                                    > > in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from 'Memorial'
                                    > > in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                                    > > NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                                    > > with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                                    > > of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                                    > > deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                                    > > lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed
                                    > > following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy
                                    > > a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                                    > > year and place of birth?
                                    > >
                                    > > The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                                    > > correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                                    > > October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                                    > > the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and
                                    > > written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                                    > > the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                                    > > were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them
                                    > > in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all the
                                    > > members of the families on their lists.
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some
                                    > > avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                                    > > time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby
                                    > > daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                                    > > not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                                    > > too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district
                                    > > and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                                    > > village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She
                                    > > was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.
                                    > >
                                    > > The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                                    > > them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                                    > > possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                                    > > regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                                    > > rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                                    > > labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                                    > > Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                                    > > their own folk.
                                    > >
                                    > > They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the
                                    > > will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                                    > > excercise as deporting Poles.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                                    > > 1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having long
                                    > > since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                                    > > already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.
                                    > >
                                    > > Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                                    > > also be of interest/help to other members.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Regards,
                                    > > Ken Fedzin
                                    > > Dewsbury
                                    > > England
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >


















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Thyme Trax
                                    Stefan witaj; In tribute to our mothers life; Undoubtedly,  we will never know the actual numbers, as my family maternal and paternal side  are still  not
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 1, 2009
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Stefan witaj;
                                      In tribute to our mothers life;
                                      Undoubtedly,  we will never know the actual numbers, as my family maternal and paternal side  are still  not recorded in Karta .
                                       
                                      My mother definitely had to sign a legal promissory note in 1946  to return immediately to her  slave duties  in the Soviet regime after a short visit to Poland with her sister who barely survived Sybir. We might have a record of those who made it out, do we know who had to return or could not escape to tell their story?
                                      pozdrawiam Krysia Styrna

                                      --- On Sun, 2/1/09, stefan.wisniowski@... <stefan.wisniowski@...> wrote:

                                      From: stefan.wisniowski@... <stefan.wisniowski@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery-Revolution from Abroad
                                      To: "Kresy-Siberia" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 7:17 AM

                                      Oh no, not the numbers debate again!

                                      Stefan
                                      Sent from my BlackBerry® from Optus

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Thyme Trax <thymetrax@...>

                                      Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 07:07:11
                                      To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery-Revolution from Abroad


                                      Witaj Zdzislaw;
                                      did a quick search to the referenced book and discovered a correction in the
                                      Preface in the Expanded Edition  to the first edition. Please note the
                                      writer states   "deported numbers have been adjusted from estimated half
                                      a million to 309,000-327,000."  hmmm, any comments? ......
                                      http://books.google.ca/books?id=XKtOr4EXOWwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Revolution+from+abroad#PPR14,M1
                                      pozdrawiam Krysia Styrna
                                       


                                       
                                       

                                      --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...> wrote:

                                      From: Zdzislaw Nowicki <znowicki@...>
                                      Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                                      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 5:12 AM






                                      Hmmm, you could be right and my judgement is clouded by the fact that
                                      I read his book 'Neighbors" a few days ago, just before
                                      "Revolution
                                      from abroad"

                                      Having taken your metaphorical 'kick in the pants', I have re-read the
                                      book and approached it with a fresh outlook. Thank you for gently
                                      steering me back on course. It's still a gem of a book concerning HOW
                                      the Soviets went about their task and very informative.

                                      Warm regards,

                                      Zdzis,

                                      Runaway Bay
                                      Queensland
                                      Australia

                                      --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, stefan.wisniowski@ ... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Zdzis
                                      >
                                      > I read this book early in my research and have detected no
                                      anti-Polish bias - it is focussed on HOW does a totalitarian communist
                                      regime impose its system on a conquered population that does not want it.
                                      >
                                      > Are you sure you are not reflecting his later work and reputation,
                                      which has been criticized as to methodology by qualified historians? I
                                      have seen no adverse criticism of this book until I read your
                                      assessment. What do you base this on?
                                      >
                                      > Stefan Wisniowski
                                      > Sydney
                                      > Sent from my BlackBerry® from Optus
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: "Zdzislaw Nowicki" <znowicki@.. .>
                                      >
                                      > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:20:23
                                      > To: <Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com>
                                      > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Another discovery
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Ken,
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for that. I must confess that I've become seriously interested
                                      > in HOW the Soviets did these things. I'm aware that the Russians
                                      > (Tsarist and Soviet) have a long history in keeping the population
                                      > under control by the threat of exile to Siberia (I know that's a
                                      broad
                                      > statement, but bear with me.)I understand the broad aspects of
                                      > registering people, after all, if you know who people are and where
                                      > they reside, it's relatively easy to find them. That's a given,
                                      but I
                                      > want to go a bit deeper than registered first then deported...
                                      >
                                      > Just to sidetrack a little and I hope this answers Pani Monika's
                                      > earlier post. On the question of who was deported, Gross claims to use
                                      > a report produced by the Polish embassy in August 1943 after it was
                                      > evacuated from the USSR to Teheran (I haven't read this report yet,
                                      so
                                      > I'll accept his claim at face value.) According to Gross, the report
                                      > states that the following categories of Polish citizens were affected
                                      > by the four mass deportations:
                                      >
                                      > February 1940
                                      > In towns: civl servants, local government officials, judges, members
                                      > of the police force.
                                      > In the country: forest workers, osadnicy and small farmers-Polish,
                                      > Ukrainian and Belorussian.
                                      >
                                      > April 1940
                                      > The families of persons previously arrested, the families of those who
                                      > had escaped abroad or were missing, tradesmen, farm labourers from
                                      > confiscated estates and more small farmers of the 3 nationalities.
                                      >
                                      > June 1940
                                      > Practically all Polish citizens who, in September 1939, had sought
                                      > refuge in eastern Poland from the advancing German forces, small
                                      > merchants, doctors, engineers, lawyers, journalists, artists,
                                      > university professors, teachers etc..
                                      >
                                      > June 1941
                                      > All those persons belonging to the categories who had so far evaded
                                      > deportation; children from summer camps and orphanages.
                                      >
                                      > I have paraphrased what Gross wrote in the book, but, at face value,
                                      > this listing seems plausible and fits my (admittedly narrow)
                                      > understanding of the deportations. The criteria seem to fit the
                                      > general order issued to the NKVD. I'll try to track down the source
                                      > that he uses. As I say, I take it at face value, neither agreeing or
                                      > disagreeing.
                                      >
                                      > So, at face value, I have the WHO. For the time being, I accept the
                                      > historical view of WHY it was done. My interest is squarely on the
                                      > HOW it was done.
                                      >
                                      > Much has been written about the way the Nazis, and in particular Adolf
                                      > Eichmann, conducted their "Final Solution' but nobody, to my
                                      > knowledge, has really examined how the Soviets went about the business
                                      > of deportation, until this book. Is there a comparison to be made?
                                      > Did the Nazis look at the Soviet method and adapt it to their own
                                      > ends? I don't know.
                                      >
                                      > When you look at the logistics of moving a mass of people, the
                                      > minutiae of arranging the timing of the operation, putting the troops
                                      > in position, preparing rolling stock and locomotives, identifying and
                                      > assembling the people, transporting them to the railway station and
                                      > all the other details, the task is immensely complicated for the
                                      > organisers, no matter how much 'experience' they have.
                                      >
                                      > Also bear in mind that the majority of freight was sent by rail at the
                                      > time. Modern containers on modern vehicles did not exist, ar freight
                                      > was far too expensive for anything other than the most luxurious of
                                      > goods, the railway system was the lifeblood of a country. Disrupt the
                                      > railway system and the availability of essential staples such as
                                      > grain, sugar, salt, coal etc would soon become scarce. The
                                      > countryside around a medium-sized city can only provide so much to it,
                                      > a lot of the goods have to be imported from somewhere in the country.
                                      >
                                      > So that is my fascination, HOW did they go about doing all this?
                                      > Gross' book provides a great deal of information. He is very
                                      > anti-Polish, but with some difficulty, I can get past that and get a
                                      > description of HOW the Soviets conducted their task.
                                      >
                                      > The one statement he makes in his book that has really stuck in my
                                      > craw so far is his translation of 'Pan'. He only assigns two
                                      meanings
                                      > - "Mister" and "Master" and completely ignores the
                                      fact that in
                                      > general polite conversation with a male, "pan" without a name
                                      would be
                                      > translated as "sir".
                                      >
                                      > I hope this particular thread isn't too off-topic for our members.
                                      > Please let me know if you feel it is and I'll drop it in the general
                                      > forum. I'm more than willing to continue it with any interested
                                      > parties via private email.
                                      >
                                      > By the way, just to lighten up a bit, it's midday here on the Gold
                                      > Coast in Queensland, overcast with brief showers, slight breeze and a
                                      > balmy 28 degrees Centigrade. Jealous yet????
                                      >
                                      > Warm regards,
                                      >
                                      > Zdzis
                                      >
                                      > Runaway Bay
                                      > Queensland
                                      > Australia
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Kenneth Fedzin"
                                      > <ken.fedzin@ > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com, "Zdzislaw Nowicki"

                                      > > <znowicki@> wrote:
                                      > > I'm more interested in
                                      > > > HOW it was done, not why which group did what to whom.
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Zdzislaw,
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm no expert on the subject (and please anyone, feel free to
                                      > > disagree or correct me), but this may help to understand if I can
                                      > > offer it from my own researching. ..
                                      > >
                                      > > The Russians, and later the Soviets, had been deporting vast numbers

                                      > > of its people to Siberia since the 1700's. They had long kept
                                      untold
                                      > > millions of detailed records and files about anything, everything and

                                      > > everyone. Even in the smallest and remotest villages. They were well

                                      > > practised at it and indeed it was a way of life.
                                      > >
                                      > > Whilst researching my Great Grandfather, an insurgent in the 1863
                                      > > Uprising who was also deported to Siberia, I obtained copies of
                                      > > Russian Police, Prison Management and Irkutsk Governor-General
                                      > > correspondence/ documents about his case dated 1896. Across one of
                                      > > which was hand written "keep for 15 years". I also have a
                                      court
                                      > > record of his case from a hearing in the Warsaw Citadel from 1871.
                                      > > These records are therefore still kept in archives today!
                                      > >
                                      > > With its long history of well established, secretive, admistration
                                      > > offices run by the secret police and set up solely for the purpose of

                                      > > compiling dossiers on potential/perceived enemies of the state i.e.
                                      > > just about everyone in Russia, it would not have been too great a
                                      > > task to compile lists/files on the comparatively small number of
                                      > > people in Eastern Poland from Sept. 1939. Indeed when the Soviet
                                      > > invasion took place some of the first people in were the
                                      > > administrators who, with the backing/support of the NKVD guard and
                                      > > his rifle, immediately took control of the Town Halls, Council
                                      > > offices, records offices, etc.. They therefore, had immediate access

                                      > > to all the vital information. I reckon they would have started the
                                      > > excercise of information gathering on day one. Military personnel and

                                      > > families, officials and families, teachers/doctors/ professors and
                                      > > their families down to the simple peasant farmers whose families had

                                      > > served in the military.
                                      > >
                                      > > A letter from the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA)

                                      > > in Barnaul, Altai Region (a copy of which I received from
                                      'Memorial'
                                      > > in Moscow), informed me that the Czortkow regional division of the
                                      > > NKVD commenced file No.4436 on my fathers family (peasant farmers
                                      > > with military service) on 29th December 1939. This file had details
                                      > > of all family members and they were designated as admistrative
                                      > > deportees and special settlers. The letter from Barnaul claims the
                                      > > lists of deportees still survives, but the file itself was destroyed

                                      > > following an MIA act of 31 December 1955. But I doubt it! Why destroy

                                      > > a file and then keep lists of names of the people in it and their
                                      > > year and place of birth?
                                      > >
                                      > > The plans had been made well in advance of Feb.1940. If I remember
                                      > > correctly, I read somewhere that the order was actually signed in
                                      > > October 1939?? Rules and regulations governing the carrying out of
                                      > > the deportations and treatment of deportees had also been agreed and

                                      > > written. When the time came for the deportations to be carried out
                                      > > the transports had already been moved into position and the lists
                                      > > were drawn up. With the aid of local Ukraine activists pointing them

                                      > > in the right direction the NKVD set about 'rounding up' all
                                      the
                                      > > members of the families on their lists.
                                      > >
                                      > > Perhaps by 1940 the lists were only 90% not 100% complete and so some

                                      > > avoided deportation. Others were in hiding, away from home at the
                                      > > time, or had Ukraine family connections. My uncle's wife and baby

                                      > > daughter were visiting her family in a village 5km away. She could
                                      > > not return due to the deep snow and cold conditions and then it was
                                      > > too late. She was in a village in a different administrative district

                                      > > and so avoided deportation. My aunt lived in a different nearby
                                      > > village and she also avoided deportation for some unknown reason. She

                                      > > was later deported to the 'new' Poland after the war.
                                      > >
                                      > > The mechanics of carrying out such an excercise was nothing new to
                                      > > them. If enough bodies are put to carrying out a task, anything is
                                      > > possible. An estimated 25 million Russians died during Stalin's
                                      > > regime in circumstances such as building huge canals through solid
                                      > > rock using only primitive tools, slaving in mines with bare hands,
                                      > > labouring in Siberian prison camps, or simply tortured and shot.The
                                      > > Soviet rulers had no regard for the value of human life. Not even
                                      > > their own folk.
                                      > >
                                      > > They were certainly not short of manpower and they certainly had the

                                      > > will, the experience and the commitment to carry out such an
                                      > > excercise as deporting Poles.
                                      > >
                                      > > Many of the camps in Siberia were already established well before
                                      > > 1939 and had become 'vacant' due to previous inmates having
                                      long
                                      > > since died in the appalling conditions. Some accommodation was then
                                      > > already in place and the rest was built by the new arrivals in 1940.

                                      > >
                                      > > Apologies if there is nothing new for you here Zdzislaw, but it may
                                      > > also be of interest/help to other members.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards,
                                      > > Ken Fedzin
                                      > > Dewsbury
                                      > > England
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >


















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