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Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Polish history

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  • Stefan Wisniowski
    Good point, Romuald It is not until after 1989 that the People s Republic fell and the regime changed. Too late for our young immigrant friends to have been
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
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      Good point, Romuald

      It is not until after 1989 that the "People's Republic" fell and the regime
      changed. Too late for our young immigrant friends to have been in school?

      Can anybody access a contemporary history book from Poland and see what they
      see about the Soviet's persecutions? (ie post 1989?)
      Stefan Wisniowski

      > From: <rlipinsk@...>
      > I am not surprised by the twisting of history in Eva Trzeciak's book. Look at
      > the date:1984 the time of the communist regime. What do you expect from the
      > commies?
      > Romuald
    • b.davoust
      One of the points I raised by the excerpts from the book is indeed the publication date -- 1984. Of course, this was still the Communist period, but this book
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
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        One of the points I raised by the excerpts from the book is indeed the
        publication date -- 1984. Of course, this was still the Communist period,
        but this book was supposed to be an example of new, more objective history.
        They did surely mention things that had probably been unmentionable before.
        However, there were other sources of information in Poland. In the long
        mail from the makers of the Forgotten Odyssey, I understood people were
        informed by family members of what had happened, at least to a certain
        extent. There were also many visitors to Poland from the west, especially
        during the 1970's and 1980's. And older family members in Poland must have
        known some of what went on, even if they didn't have details.
        I went to Poland twice in the 1970's and one of the things that struck me
        was the number of Western films available and that there was access to
        non-official information. (This may be because I was in cities and not in
        the countryside.) This was sometimes explained to me as a sop to the Poles
        to make up for the disastrous economic situation. (In comparison to, for
        example, Czechoslovakia where there was more in the stores, but less
        freedom.) Poland was the country with repeated economic-political uprisings
        (1976, KOR, Solidarity, etc).
        So it seems to me that complete ignorance would have been for people who
        didn't bother to find out more than was officially available. But then, why
        should the Poles be blamed for not finding out? How many of us living right
        now in the West take the time and effort to be informed about more than we
        read in the paper or see on the TV news?
        As a last point, I don't know that 1989 can be seen as a break-off point.
        It takes time to rewrite history books, even longer to change mentalities.
        There were certainly other urgent things to be done in the country in the
        immediate post-Soviet period.
        This said, it would indeed be interesting to see how contemporary historians
        approach the subject.

        Barbara Davoust
      • John Roy
        We only know the story of Chechny from the point of view of Russia ... John Roy-Wojciechowski Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland 51 Granger Road, Howick,
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
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          We only know the story of Chechny from the point of view of Russia


          On 3 Nov 2002 at 10:28, b.davoust wrote:

          > One of the points I raised by the excerpts from the book is indeed the
          > publication date -- 1984. Of course, this was still the Communist
          > period, but this book was supposed to be an example of new, more
          > objective history. They did surely mention things that had probably
          > been unmentionable before. However, there were other sources of
          > information in Poland. In the long mail from the makers of the
          > Forgotten Odyssey, I understood people were informed by family members
          > of what had happened, at least to a certain extent. There were also
          > many visitors to Poland from the west, especially during the 1970's
          > and 1980's. And older family members in Poland must have known some
          > of what went on, even if they didn't have details. I went to Poland
          > twice in the 1970's and one of the things that struck me was the
          > number of Western films available and that there was access to
          > non-official information. (This may be because I was in cities and not
          > in the countryside.) This was sometimes explained to me as a sop to
          > the Poles to make up for the disastrous economic situation. (In
          > comparison to, for example, Czechoslovakia where there was more in the
          > stores, but less freedom.) Poland was the country with repeated
          > economic-political uprisings (1976, KOR, Solidarity, etc). So it seems
          > to me that complete ignorance would have been for people who didn't
          > bother to find out more than was officially available. But then, why
          > should the Poles be blamed for not finding out? How many of us living
          > right now in the West take the time and effort to be informed about
          > more than we read in the paper or see on the TV news? As a last point,
          > I don't know that 1989 can be seen as a break-off point. It takes time
          > to rewrite history books, even longer to change mentalities. There
          > were certainly other urgent things to be done in the country in the
          > immediate post-Soviet period. This said, it would indeed be
          > interesting to see how contemporary historians approach the subject.
          >
          > Barbara Davoust
          >
          >
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          John Roy-Wojciechowski
          Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
          51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
          Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
          e-mail polish@... website www.polishheritage.co.nz

          John Roy-Wojciechowski
          Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
          51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
          Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
          e-mail polish@... website www.polishheritage.co.nz
        • Schuddy100@aol.com
          THANK YOU FOR ALL THE DETAILS.
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
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            THANK YOU  FOR ALL THE DETAILS.
          • Michael Kulik
            Whilst we are all sadly very aware of the Polish losses during World War II, this figures need to be taken into context. The figure of 23 million persons
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 4, 2002
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              Whilst we are all sadly very aware of the Polish losses during World
              War II, this figures need to be taken into context.

              The figure of 23 million persons represents the post war census /
              calculation of the homogeneous POLISH population within the new 1945
              borders - i.e. it doesn't take into consideration the population
              losses caused by the absence of the various ethnic minorities so
              prevalent in pre war Poland, many of whom too of course perished but
              not entirely. Remember these minorities made up nearly one third of
              Polish citizens in 1939.

              Actual loss of life (for Polish citizens of whatever faith)is
              recognised as somewhere between 6 and 7 million.


              Michael.


              --- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., "barb" <barbkwie@e...> wrote:
              > Your figures at the end are shocking. That's 12.1 million people
              lost over
              > 6 years! 1/3 of the original population!
              >
              >
            • Paul Havers
              Just to add to this, the simpler way of calculating Poland s war time loss is this; out of the total prewar population every 5th citizen perished Paul ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 4, 2002
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                Just to add to this, the simpler way of calculating Poland's war time loss
                is this; out of the total prewar population every 5th citizen perished

                Paul

                At 08:08 11/04/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                Whilst we are all sadly very aware of the Polish losses during World
                War II, this figures need to be taken into context.

                The figure of 23 million persons represents the post war census /
                calculation of the homogeneous POLISH population within the new 1945
                borders - i.e. it doesn't take into consideration the population
                losses caused by the absence of the various ethnic minorities so
                prevalent in pre war Poland, many of whom too of course perished but
                not entirely. Remember these minorities made up nearly one third of
                Polish citizens in 1939.

                Actual loss of life (for Polish citizens of whatever faith)is
                recognised as somewhere between 6 and 7 million.


                Michael.


                --- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., "barb" <barbkwie@e...> wrote:
                > Your figures at the end are shocking.  That's 12.1 million people
                lost over
                > 6 years! 1/3 of the original population!
                >
                >



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              • Krystyna Styrna
                I have found this unique website and like to share it with the rest of the group if I may. It is a short history format featuring Polish and worldstatesmen;
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 9 4:58 PM
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                  I have found this unique website and like to share it
                  with the rest of the group if I may. It is a short
                  history format featuring Polish and worldstatesmen;

                  http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Poland.htm
                  krystyna styrna



                  --- W Bog <giewonty@...> wrote:
                  > not to start a storm in a tea pot...Group--Sorry to
                  > have broached the subject..at all ...for how can I
                  > be made to suffer in 1940 for some selected
                  > accusations of 1648 or 1945. There will always be
                  > an area of discomfort when talking about pain ..is
                  > 1,500,000 victims the same as 10,000 victims. Is my
                  > pain greater than my neighbour Jew?? and How many
                  > Ukrainians were killed ? How ? When ? BY Whom? May I
                  > politely ask The Group to DROP this subject of" sins
                  > of my father and sins of my son be MY sins " I
                  > promise not to continue on this or similar subject
                  > of " tit for tat " payback. yet I will still ask
                  > for some pure history research on Poland's
                  > occupation of Podole and Wolyn. Remorseful
                  > Dziadzius.
                  >
                  > Lech Lesiak <lech_lesiak@...> wrote:
                  > --- giewonty wrote:
                  > ---------------------------------
                  >
                  > As a general statement:
                  > I am always fascinated by the tendency of some of my
                  > country men to
                  > apologise to just about every one for whatever pain
                  > and suffering
                  > THEY brought upon Poland and its people.
                  > End quote
                  >
                  > Just as I'm fascinated by the tendency of some of my
                  > fellow Poles to see themselves as pure victims, a
                  > people who never sinned against any one else.
                  >
                  > If you ever catch me apologizing to Germans,
                  > Russians,
                  > or Ukrainians for the horrors they committed in
                  > Poland, please point it out to me.
                  >
                  > But don't be surprised if I seem to sometimes be
                  > apologetic for what Poles did to Jews, Ukrainians,
                  > and
                  > ethnic Germans in the post-WWII period.
                  >
                  > Murder is murder whether or not it's my tribe that
                  > does it.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Lech
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
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                  >
                  >
                  >
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