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Polish history

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  • b.davoust
    Hi group, After the recent mails about young immigrant Poles reactions to a Forgotten Odyssey, I remember that I had a history book written in Poland in 1984.
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
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      Hi group,
      After the recent mails about young immigrant Poles' reactions to a Forgotten
      Odyssey, I remember that I had a history book written in Poland in 1984. It
      was sent to me as an example of the "newer, unbiased" style of history
      writing that started after Solidarity. I just checked whether anything was
      said about the deportations from the Kresy. It seems to me that this goes a
      long way in explaining contemporary Poland's ignorance of what happened (but
      not their hostility).

      The book is called "Panorama of the History of Poland" by Ewa Trzeciak,
      Interpress, Warsaw, 1984. It seems to be a collaborative effort, since they
      mention lots of different authors.

      One short sentence mentions that the USSR and Germany signed an agreement in
      August 1939, after Soviet talks with the allies (France and GB) gave no
      results.
      The text mentions the Polish defence and retreat. "Until September 22, the
      Germans besieged Lwow in vain, then the commander of the defence gave the
      city to the Soviet Army."
      Four pages of detailed numbers of the 'Hitlerite' tanks and army invasion
      from the west, a short paragraph mentions the area occupied by Germany and
      its population. The next sentence says: "The territories annexed to the
      USSR had a surface of 201,000 sq km and a population of about 13 million
      people, of which a majority were Ukrainian, Bielorussian and Jewish. Poles
      were about 5 million."
      There follow accounts of German behaviour in Poland, even though the author
      mentions that several tens of thousands of Polish soldiers managed to escape
      through Hungary and Romania to France, the constitution of an army under
      Sikorski and the units formed in France, Syria and GB.
      No mention is made of what happened to the Poles in the east, but "After
      Germany's attack on the Soviet Union, Polish-Soviet relations were renewed.
      A political and military agreement was reached and a Polish army began to be
      created in the USSR. There were about a million evacuated Poles and
      prisoners of war on Soviet territory, who were amnistied. Several Polish
      divisions were formed. Because of the position of the Polish government in
      London and supported by the British and Americans, these units -- of a total
      number of about 40,000 men -- were evacuated to the Middle East and there,
      transformed into the Second¨Polish ARmy Corps under the command of General
      Wladyslaw Anders. This Corps participated in combat on the Italian front.
      It became famous in the conquest of Monte Cassino (May 1944), conquered
      Ancona, fought for Bologna. After the landings, units of the First Corps,
      in France, Belgium and Holland, also participated in the conquest of
      Germany. [...]
      In the final phase of the war, Polish Armed forces in the West included
      about 220,000 men of which there were 14 air force squadrons, 15 bigger
      ships and several smaller ones. Polish airmen brought down a thousand enemy
      planes, about 200 V bombs, and Polish bombings squads took part in about
      12,000 raids on the enemy. Polish soldiers' contribution on all the fronts
      was therefore very important." (my translation from French)
      There follows a bit about the AK (Home Army), lots about Communist resisters
      and the Polish Popular Army. Nothing about the Soviet army's sitting across
      the Vistula while the Warsaw uprising was taking place, just that they were
      there. The implication is that the AK should have waited because the
      Russians were tired after marching further than had been planned.

      Interestingly, after chapters on the glories of the working class, the great
      improvements in urbanization, culture, education, etc, the books ends by
      saying that those responsible for the lousy condition of the country were
      forced to resign and new ways of running the country were beginning.
      No mention made anywhere of the civilians deported to the Soviet Union.
      Nothing mentioned about the number of Poles who didn't return to Poland
      (although they do cite population figures: 35.1 million in 1939, 23 million
      in 1945).

      If this is the "new" history, you can imagine what the old stuff was like.

      Barbara Davoust
    • barb
      Your figures at the end are shocking. That s 12.1 million people lost over 6 years! 1/3 of the original population! ... From: b.davoust
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
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        Your figures at the end are shocking. That's 12.1 million people lost over
        6 years! 1/3 of the original population!


        -----Original Message-----
        From: b.davoust [mailto:b.davoust@...]
        Sent: November 1, 2002 11:13 AM
        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Polish history


        Hi group,
        After the recent mails about young immigrant Poles' reactions to a Forgotten
        Odyssey, I remember that I had a history book written in Poland in 1984. It
        was sent to me as an example of the "newer, unbiased" style of history
        writing that started after Solidarity. I just checked whether anything was
        said about the deportations from the Kresy. It seems to me that this goes a
        long way in explaining contemporary Poland's ignorance of what happened (but
        not their hostility).

        The book is called "Panorama of the History of Poland" by Ewa Trzeciak,
        Interpress, Warsaw, 1984. It seems to be a collaborative effort, since they
        mention lots of different authors.

        One short sentence mentions that the USSR and Germany signed an agreement in
        August 1939, after Soviet talks with the allies (France and GB) gave no
        results.
        The text mentions the Polish defence and retreat. "Until September 22, the
        Germans besieged Lwow in vain, then the commander of the defence gave the
        city to the Soviet Army."
        Four pages of detailed numbers of the 'Hitlerite' tanks and army invasion
        from the west, a short paragraph mentions the area occupied by Germany and
        its population. The next sentence says: "The territories annexed to the
        USSR had a surface of 201,000 sq km and a population of about 13 million
        people, of which a majority were Ukrainian, Bielorussian and Jewish. Poles
        were about 5 million."
        There follow accounts of German behaviour in Poland, even though the author
        mentions that several tens of thousands of Polish soldiers managed to escape
        through Hungary and Romania to France, the constitution of an army under
        Sikorski and the units formed in France, Syria and GB.
        No mention is made of what happened to the Poles in the east, but "After
        Germany's attack on the Soviet Union, Polish-Soviet relations were renewed.
        A political and military agreement was reached and a Polish army began to be
        created in the USSR. There were about a million evacuated Poles and
        prisoners of war on Soviet territory, who were amnistied. Several Polish
        divisions were formed. Because of the position of the Polish government in
        London and supported by the British and Americans, these units -- of a total
        number of about 40,000 men -- were evacuated to the Middle East and there,
        transformed into the Second¨Polish ARmy Corps under the command of General
        Wladyslaw Anders. This Corps participated in combat on the Italian front.
        It became famous in the conquest of Monte Cassino (May 1944), conquered
        Ancona, fought for Bologna. After the landings, units of the First Corps,
        in France, Belgium and Holland, also participated in the conquest of
        Germany. [...]
        In the final phase of the war, Polish Armed forces in the West included
        about 220,000 men of which there were 14 air force squadrons, 15 bigger
        ships and several smaller ones. Polish airmen brought down a thousand enemy
        planes, about 200 V bombs, and Polish bombings squads took part in about
        12,000 raids on the enemy. Polish soldiers' contribution on all the fronts
        was therefore very important." (my translation from French)
        There follows a bit about the AK (Home Army), lots about Communist resisters
        and the Polish Popular Army. Nothing about the Soviet army's sitting across
        the Vistula while the Warsaw uprising was taking place, just that they were
        there. The implication is that the AK should have waited because the
        Russians were tired after marching further than had been planned.

        Interestingly, after chapters on the glories of the working class, the great
        improvements in urbanization, culture, education, etc, the books ends by
        saying that those responsible for the lousy condition of the country were
        forced to resign and new ways of running the country were beginning.
        No mention made anywhere of the civilians deported to the Soviet Union.
        Nothing mentioned about the number of Poles who didn't return to Poland
        (although they do cite population figures: 35.1 million in 1939, 23 million
        in 1945).

        If this is the "new" history, you can imagine what the old stuff was like.

        Barbara Davoust



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      • S & J Szybalski
        Barbara: It seems that I missed your original letter and must congratulate you that you took my advice, even though you never replied to my private post. You
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
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          Barbara:

          It seems that I missed your original letter and must congratulate you that you
          took my advice, even though you never replied to my private post.

          You are right. What was written in "Old History", especially before 1956, what
          I mentioned about Cass approach to Polish history which embellished only black
          side like treatment of peasants and putting down September 1939. Communists
          used this approach to degrade our past, as it helped them to glorify current
          "achievements". It worked, as younger generation did not knowing of our real
          past and had no difficulties to accept new masters.

          I befriended a known Polish TV producer, whom I helped after all changes to be
          financially successful businessman. He was of blue collar background educated in
          PRL. He is self made man whose beginning was difficult as the pay was very low,
          getting apartment even more difficult, not mentioning a car which was a dream.
          Now when everything is over, his hart still belongs to PRL. So their methods of
          brain washing are indisputable successful even after they are gone.

          Stas

          barb wrote:

          > Your figures at the end are shocking. That's 12.1 million people lost over
          > 6 years! 1/3 of the original population!
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: b.davoust [mailto:b.davoust@...]
          > Sent: November 1, 2002 11:13 AM
          > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Polish history
          >
          > Hi group,
          > After the recent mails about young immigrant Poles' reactions to a Forgotten
          > Odyssey, I remember that I had a history book written in Poland in 1984. It
          > was sent to me as an example of the "newer, unbiased" style of history
          > writing that started after Solidarity. I just checked whether anything was
          > said about the deportations from the Kresy. It seems to me that this goes a
          > long way in explaining contemporary Poland's ignorance of what happened (but
          > not their hostility).
          >
          > The book is called "Panorama of the History of Poland" by Ewa Trzeciak,
          > Interpress, Warsaw, 1984. It seems to be a collaborative effort, since they
          > mention lots of different authors.
          >
          > One short sentence mentions that the USSR and Germany signed an agreement in
          > August 1939, after Soviet talks with the allies (France and GB) gave no
          > results.
          > The text mentions the Polish defence and retreat. "Until September 22, the
          > Germans besieged Lwow in vain, then the commander of the defence gave the
          > city to the Soviet Army."
          > Four pages of detailed numbers of the 'Hitlerite' tanks and army invasion
          > from the west, a short paragraph mentions the area occupied by Germany and
          > its population. The next sentence says: "The territories annexed to the
          > USSR had a surface of 201,000 sq km and a population of about 13 million
          > people, of which a majority were Ukrainian, Bielorussian and Jewish. Poles
          > were about 5 million."
          > There follow accounts of German behaviour in Poland, even though the author
          > mentions that several tens of thousands of Polish soldiers managed to escape
          > through Hungary and Romania to France, the constitution of an army under
          > Sikorski and the units formed in France, Syria and GB.
          > No mention is made of what happened to the Poles in the east, but "After
          > Germany's attack on the Soviet Union, Polish-Soviet relations were renewed.
          > A political and military agreement was reached and a Polish army began to be
          > created in the USSR. There were about a million evacuated Poles and
          > prisoners of war on Soviet territory, who were amnistied. Several Polish
          > divisions were formed. Because of the position of the Polish government in
          > London and supported by the British and Americans, these units -- of a total
          > number of about 40,000 men -- were evacuated to the Middle East and there,
          > transformed into the Second¨Polish ARmy Corps under the command of General
          > Wladyslaw Anders. This Corps participated in combat on the Italian front.
          > It became famous in the conquest of Monte Cassino (May 1944), conquered
          > Ancona, fought for Bologna. After the landings, units of the First Corps,
          > in France, Belgium and Holland, also participated in the conquest of
          > Germany. [...]
          > In the final phase of the war, Polish Armed forces in the West included
          > about 220,000 men of which there were 14 air force squadrons, 15 bigger
          > ships and several smaller ones. Polish airmen brought down a thousand enemy
          > planes, about 200 V bombs, and Polish bombings squads took part in about
          > 12,000 raids on the enemy. Polish soldiers' contribution on all the fronts
          > was therefore very important." (my translation from French)
          > There follows a bit about the AK (Home Army), lots about Communist resisters
          > and the Polish Popular Army. Nothing about the Soviet army's sitting across
          > the Vistula while the Warsaw uprising was taking place, just that they were
          > there. The implication is that the AK should have waited because the
          > Russians were tired after marching further than had been planned.
          >
          > Interestingly, after chapters on the glories of the working class, the great
          > improvements in urbanization, culture, education, etc, the books ends by
          > saying that those responsible for the lousy condition of the country were
          > forced to resign and new ways of running the country were beginning.
          > No mention made anywhere of the civilians deported to the Soviet Union.
          > Nothing mentioned about the number of Poles who didn't return to Poland
          > (although they do cite population figures: 35.1 million in 1939, 23 million
          > in 1945).
          >
          > If this is the "new" history, you can imagine what the old stuff was like.
          >
          > Barbara Davoust
          >
          > ***************************************************************************
          > * KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
          > **
          > * Discussion site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
          > * Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
          > **
          > * Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
          > * Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          > **
          > * To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
          > * and your interest in the group to:
          > * Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > ***************************************************************************
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          > ***************************************************************************
          > * KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
          > **
          > * Discussion site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
          > * Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
          > **
          > * Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
          > * Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          > **
          > * To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
          > * and your interest in the group to:
          > * Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
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          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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        • S & J Szybalski
          Barbara: Interesting that your letter came after response to it, to which I just replied. I m proud of you and continue your research. Stas ... Signup online
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
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            Barbara:

            Interesting that your letter came after response to it, to which I just
            replied. I'm proud of you and continue your research.

            Stas

            b.davoust wrote:

            > Hi group,
            > After the recent mails about young immigrant Poles' reactions to a Forgotten
            > Odyssey, I remember that I had a history book written in Poland in 1984. It
            > was sent to me as an example of the "newer, unbiased" style of history
            > writing that started after Solidarity. I just checked whether anything was
            > said about the deportations from the Kresy. It seems to me that this goes a
            > long way in explaining contemporary Poland's ignorance of what happened (but
            > not their hostility).
            >
            > The book is called "Panorama of the History of Poland" by Ewa Trzeciak,
            > Interpress, Warsaw, 1984. It seems to be a collaborative effort, since they
            > mention lots of different authors.
            >
            > One short sentence mentions that the USSR and Germany signed an agreement in
            > August 1939, after Soviet talks with the allies (France and GB) gave no
            > results.
            > The text mentions the Polish defence and retreat. "Until September 22, the
            > Germans besieged Lwow in vain, then the commander of the defence gave the
            > city to the Soviet Army."
            > Four pages of detailed numbers of the 'Hitlerite' tanks and army invasion
            > from the west, a short paragraph mentions the area occupied by Germany and
            > its population. The next sentence says: "The territories annexed to the
            > USSR had a surface of 201,000 sq km and a population of about 13 million
            > people, of which a majority were Ukrainian, Bielorussian and Jewish. Poles
            > were about 5 million."
            > There follow accounts of German behaviour in Poland, even though the author
            > mentions that several tens of thousands of Polish soldiers managed to escape
            > through Hungary and Romania to France, the constitution of an army under
            > Sikorski and the units formed in France, Syria and GB.
            > No mention is made of what happened to the Poles in the east, but "After
            > Germany's attack on the Soviet Union, Polish-Soviet relations were renewed.
            > A political and military agreement was reached and a Polish army began to be
            > created in the USSR. There were about a million evacuated Poles and
            > prisoners of war on Soviet territory, who were amnistied. Several Polish
            > divisions were formed. Because of the position of the Polish government in
            > London and supported by the British and Americans, these units -- of a total
            > number of about 40,000 men -- were evacuated to the Middle East and there,
            > transformed into the Second¨Polish ARmy Corps under the command of General
            > Wladyslaw Anders. This Corps participated in combat on the Italian front.
            > It became famous in the conquest of Monte Cassino (May 1944), conquered
            > Ancona, fought for Bologna. After the landings, units of the First Corps,
            > in France, Belgium and Holland, also participated in the conquest of
            > Germany. [...]
            > In the final phase of the war, Polish Armed forces in the West included
            > about 220,000 men of which there were 14 air force squadrons, 15 bigger
            > ships and several smaller ones. Polish airmen brought down a thousand enemy
            > planes, about 200 V bombs, and Polish bombings squads took part in about
            > 12,000 raids on the enemy. Polish soldiers' contribution on all the fronts
            > was therefore very important." (my translation from French)
            > There follows a bit about the AK (Home Army), lots about Communist resisters
            > and the Polish Popular Army. Nothing about the Soviet army's sitting across
            > the Vistula while the Warsaw uprising was taking place, just that they were
            > there. The implication is that the AK should have waited because the
            > Russians were tired after marching further than had been planned.
            >
            > Interestingly, after chapters on the glories of the working class, the great
            > improvements in urbanization, culture, education, etc, the books ends by
            > saying that those responsible for the lousy condition of the country were
            > forced to resign and new ways of running the country were beginning.
            > No mention made anywhere of the civilians deported to the Soviet Union.
            > Nothing mentioned about the number of Poles who didn't return to Poland
            > (although they do cite population figures: 35.1 million in 1939, 23 million
            > in 1945).
            >
            > If this is the "new" history, you can imagine what the old stuff was like.
            >
            > Barbara Davoust
            >
            >
            > ***************************************************************************
            > * KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
            > **
            > * Discussion site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
            > * Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
            > **
            > * Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
            > * Send e-mails to: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            > **
            > * To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
            > * and your interest in the group to:
            > * Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > ***************************************************************************
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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          • rlipinsk@gmu.edu
            Hi Eva! I am not surprised by the twisting of history in Eva Trzeciak s book. Look at the date:1984 the time of the communist regime. What do you expect from
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
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              Hi Eva!
              I am not surprised by the twisting of history in Eva Trzeciak's book.
              Look at the date:1984 the time of the communist regime. What do you
              expect from the commies?
              Romuald

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "b.davoust" <b.davoust@...>
              Date: Friday, November 1, 2002 11:13 am
              Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Polish history

              > Hi group,
              > After the recent mails about young immigrant Poles' reactions to a
              > ForgottenOdyssey, I remember that I had a history book written in
              > Poland in 1984. It
              > was sent to me as an example of the "newer, unbiased" style of history
              > writing that started after Solidarity. I just checked whether
              > anything was
              > said about the deportations from the Kresy. It seems to me that
              > this goes a
              > long way in explaining contemporary Poland's ignorance of what
              > happened (but
              > not their hostility).
              >
              > The book is called "Panorama of the History of Poland" by Ewa
              > Trzeciak,Interpress, Warsaw, 1984. It seems to be a collaborative
              > effort, since they
              > mention lots of different authors.
              >
              > One short sentence mentions that the USSR and Germany signed an
              > agreement in
              > August 1939, after Soviet talks with the allies (France and GB)
              > gave no
              > results.
              > The text mentions the Polish defence and retreat. "Until
              > September 22, the
              > Germans besieged Lwow in vain, then the commander of the defence
              > gave the
              > city to the Soviet Army."
              > Four pages of detailed numbers of the 'Hitlerite' tanks and army
              > invasionfrom the west, a short paragraph mentions the area
              > occupied by Germany and
              > its population. The next sentence says: "The territories annexed
              > to the
              > USSR had a surface of 201,000 sq km and a population of about 13
              > millionpeople, of which a majority were Ukrainian, Bielorussian
              > and Jewish. Poles
              > were about 5 million."
              > There follow accounts of German behaviour in Poland, even though
              > the author
              > mentions that several tens of thousands of Polish soldiers managed
              > to escape
              > through Hungary and Romania to France, the constitution of an army
              > underSikorski and the units formed in France, Syria and GB.
              > No mention is made of what happened to the Poles in the east, but
              > "AfterGermany's attack on the Soviet Union, Polish-Soviet
              > relations were renewed.
              > A political and military agreement was reached and a Polish army
              > began to be
              > created in the USSR. There were about a million evacuated Poles and
              > prisoners of war on Soviet territory, who were amnistied. Several
              > Polishdivisions were formed. Because of the position of the
              > Polish government in
              > London and supported by the British and Americans, these units --
              > of a total
              > number of about 40,000 men -- were evacuated to the Middle East
              > and there,
              > transformed into the Second�Polish ARmy Corps under the command of
              > GeneralWladyslaw Anders. This Corps participated in combat on the
              > Italian front.
              > It became famous in the conquest of Monte Cassino (May 1944),
              > conqueredAncona, fought for Bologna. After the landings, units of
              > the First Corps,
              > in France, Belgium and Holland, also participated in the conquest of
              > Germany. [...]
              > In the final phase of the war, Polish Armed forces in the West
              > includedabout 220,000 men of which there were 14 air force
              > squadrons, 15 bigger
              > ships and several smaller ones. Polish airmen brought down a
              > thousand enemy
              > planes, about 200 V bombs, and Polish bombings squads took part in
              > about12,000 raids on the enemy. Polish soldiers' contribution on
              > all the fronts
              > was therefore very important." (my translation from French)
              > There follows a bit about the AK (Home Army), lots about Communist
              > resistersand the Polish Popular Army. Nothing about the Soviet
              > army's sitting across
              > the Vistula while the Warsaw uprising was taking place, just that
              > they were
              > there. The implication is that the AK should have waited because the
              > Russians were tired after marching further than had been planned.
              >
              > Interestingly, after chapters on the glories of the working class,
              > the great
              > improvements in urbanization, culture, education, etc, the books
              > ends by
              > saying that those responsible for the lousy condition of the
              > country were
              > forced to resign and new ways of running the country were beginning.
              > No mention made anywhere of the civilians deported to the Soviet
              > Union.Nothing mentioned about the number of Poles who didn't
              > return to Poland
              > (although they do cite population figures: 35.1 million in 1939,
              > 23 million
              > in 1945).
              >
              > If this is the "new" history, you can imagine what the old stuff
              > was like.
              >
              > Barbara Davoust
              >
              >
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              > **
              > *� Discussion site:� http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
              > *� Film and info� :� http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
              > **
              > *� Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
              > *� Send e-mails to:� Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
              > **
              > *� To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
              > *� and your interest in the group to:
              > * Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >
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              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
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              >
              >
            • Stefan Wisniowski
              Good point, Romuald It is not until after 1989 that the People s Republic fell and the regime changed. Too late for our young immigrant friends to have been
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
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                Good point, Romuald

                It is not until after 1989 that the "People's Republic" fell and the regime
                changed. Too late for our young immigrant friends to have been in school?

                Can anybody access a contemporary history book from Poland and see what they
                see about the Soviet's persecutions? (ie post 1989?)
                Stefan Wisniowski

                > From: <rlipinsk@...>
                > I am not surprised by the twisting of history in Eva Trzeciak's book. Look at
                > the date:1984 the time of the communist regime. What do you expect from the
                > commies?
                > Romuald
              • b.davoust
                One of the points I raised by the excerpts from the book is indeed the publication date -- 1984. Of course, this was still the Communist period, but this book
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
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                  One of the points I raised by the excerpts from the book is indeed the
                  publication date -- 1984. Of course, this was still the Communist period,
                  but this book was supposed to be an example of new, more objective history.
                  They did surely mention things that had probably been unmentionable before.
                  However, there were other sources of information in Poland. In the long
                  mail from the makers of the Forgotten Odyssey, I understood people were
                  informed by family members of what had happened, at least to a certain
                  extent. There were also many visitors to Poland from the west, especially
                  during the 1970's and 1980's. And older family members in Poland must have
                  known some of what went on, even if they didn't have details.
                  I went to Poland twice in the 1970's and one of the things that struck me
                  was the number of Western films available and that there was access to
                  non-official information. (This may be because I was in cities and not in
                  the countryside.) This was sometimes explained to me as a sop to the Poles
                  to make up for the disastrous economic situation. (In comparison to, for
                  example, Czechoslovakia where there was more in the stores, but less
                  freedom.) Poland was the country with repeated economic-political uprisings
                  (1976, KOR, Solidarity, etc).
                  So it seems to me that complete ignorance would have been for people who
                  didn't bother to find out more than was officially available. But then, why
                  should the Poles be blamed for not finding out? How many of us living right
                  now in the West take the time and effort to be informed about more than we
                  read in the paper or see on the TV news?
                  As a last point, I don't know that 1989 can be seen as a break-off point.
                  It takes time to rewrite history books, even longer to change mentalities.
                  There were certainly other urgent things to be done in the country in the
                  immediate post-Soviet period.
                  This said, it would indeed be interesting to see how contemporary historians
                  approach the subject.

                  Barbara Davoust
                • John Roy
                  We only know the story of Chechny from the point of view of Russia ... John Roy-Wojciechowski Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland 51 Granger Road, Howick,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
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                    We only know the story of Chechny from the point of view of Russia


                    On 3 Nov 2002 at 10:28, b.davoust wrote:

                    > One of the points I raised by the excerpts from the book is indeed the
                    > publication date -- 1984. Of course, this was still the Communist
                    > period, but this book was supposed to be an example of new, more
                    > objective history. They did surely mention things that had probably
                    > been unmentionable before. However, there were other sources of
                    > information in Poland. In the long mail from the makers of the
                    > Forgotten Odyssey, I understood people were informed by family members
                    > of what had happened, at least to a certain extent. There were also
                    > many visitors to Poland from the west, especially during the 1970's
                    > and 1980's. And older family members in Poland must have known some
                    > of what went on, even if they didn't have details. I went to Poland
                    > twice in the 1970's and one of the things that struck me was the
                    > number of Western films available and that there was access to
                    > non-official information. (This may be because I was in cities and not
                    > in the countryside.) This was sometimes explained to me as a sop to
                    > the Poles to make up for the disastrous economic situation. (In
                    > comparison to, for example, Czechoslovakia where there was more in the
                    > stores, but less freedom.) Poland was the country with repeated
                    > economic-political uprisings (1976, KOR, Solidarity, etc). So it seems
                    > to me that complete ignorance would have been for people who didn't
                    > bother to find out more than was officially available. But then, why
                    > should the Poles be blamed for not finding out? How many of us living
                    > right now in the West take the time and effort to be informed about
                    > more than we read in the paper or see on the TV news? As a last point,
                    > I don't know that 1989 can be seen as a break-off point. It takes time
                    > to rewrite history books, even longer to change mentalities. There
                    > were certainly other urgent things to be done in the country in the
                    > immediate post-Soviet period. This said, it would indeed be
                    > interesting to see how contemporary historians approach the subject.
                    >
                    > Barbara Davoust
                    >
                    >
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                    John Roy-Wojciechowski
                    Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
                    51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
                    Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
                    e-mail polish@... website www.polishheritage.co.nz

                    John Roy-Wojciechowski
                    Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
                    51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
                    Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
                    e-mail polish@... website www.polishheritage.co.nz
                  • Schuddy100@aol.com
                    THANK YOU FOR ALL THE DETAILS.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
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                      THANK YOU  FOR ALL THE DETAILS.
                    • Michael Kulik
                      Whilst we are all sadly very aware of the Polish losses during World War II, this figures need to be taken into context. The figure of 23 million persons
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 4, 2002
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                        Whilst we are all sadly very aware of the Polish losses during World
                        War II, this figures need to be taken into context.

                        The figure of 23 million persons represents the post war census /
                        calculation of the homogeneous POLISH population within the new 1945
                        borders - i.e. it doesn't take into consideration the population
                        losses caused by the absence of the various ethnic minorities so
                        prevalent in pre war Poland, many of whom too of course perished but
                        not entirely. Remember these minorities made up nearly one third of
                        Polish citizens in 1939.

                        Actual loss of life (for Polish citizens of whatever faith)is
                        recognised as somewhere between 6 and 7 million.


                        Michael.


                        --- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., "barb" <barbkwie@e...> wrote:
                        > Your figures at the end are shocking. That's 12.1 million people
                        lost over
                        > 6 years! 1/3 of the original population!
                        >
                        >
                      • Paul Havers
                        Just to add to this, the simpler way of calculating Poland s war time loss is this; out of the total prewar population every 5th citizen perished Paul ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 4, 2002
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                          Just to add to this, the simpler way of calculating Poland's war time loss
                          is this; out of the total prewar population every 5th citizen perished

                          Paul

                          At 08:08 11/04/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                          Whilst we are all sadly very aware of the Polish losses during World
                          War II, this figures need to be taken into context.

                          The figure of 23 million persons represents the post war census /
                          calculation of the homogeneous POLISH population within the new 1945
                          borders - i.e. it doesn't take into consideration the population
                          losses caused by the absence of the various ethnic minorities so
                          prevalent in pre war Poland, many of whom too of course perished but
                          not entirely. Remember these minorities made up nearly one third of
                          Polish citizens in 1939.

                          Actual loss of life (for Polish citizens of whatever faith)is
                          recognised as somewhere between 6 and 7 million.


                          Michael.


                          --- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., "barb" <barbkwie@e...> wrote:
                          > Your figures at the end are shocking.  That's 12.1 million people
                          lost over
                          > 6 years! 1/3 of the original population!
                          >
                          >



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                        • Krystyna Styrna
                          I have found this unique website and like to share it with the rest of the group if I may. It is a short history format featuring Polish and worldstatesmen;
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 9 4:58 PM
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                            I have found this unique website and like to share it
                            with the rest of the group if I may. It is a short
                            history format featuring Polish and worldstatesmen;

                            http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Poland.htm
                            krystyna styrna



                            --- W Bog <giewonty@...> wrote:
                            > not to start a storm in a tea pot...Group--Sorry to
                            > have broached the subject..at all ...for how can I
                            > be made to suffer in 1940 for some selected
                            > accusations of 1648 or 1945. There will always be
                            > an area of discomfort when talking about pain ..is
                            > 1,500,000 victims the same as 10,000 victims. Is my
                            > pain greater than my neighbour Jew?? and How many
                            > Ukrainians were killed ? How ? When ? BY Whom? May I
                            > politely ask The Group to DROP this subject of" sins
                            > of my father and sins of my son be MY sins " I
                            > promise not to continue on this or similar subject
                            > of " tit for tat " payback. yet I will still ask
                            > for some pure history research on Poland's
                            > occupation of Podole and Wolyn. Remorseful
                            > Dziadzius.
                            >
                            > Lech Lesiak <lech_lesiak@...> wrote:
                            > --- giewonty wrote:
                            > ---------------------------------
                            >
                            > As a general statement:
                            > I am always fascinated by the tendency of some of my
                            > country men to
                            > apologise to just about every one for whatever pain
                            > and suffering
                            > THEY brought upon Poland and its people.
                            > End quote
                            >
                            > Just as I'm fascinated by the tendency of some of my
                            > fellow Poles to see themselves as pure victims, a
                            > people who never sinned against any one else.
                            >
                            > If you ever catch me apologizing to Germans,
                            > Russians,
                            > or Ukrainians for the horrors they committed in
                            > Poland, please point it out to me.
                            >
                            > But don't be surprised if I seem to sometimes be
                            > apologetic for what Poles did to Jews, Ukrainians,
                            > and
                            > ethnic Germans in the post-WWII period.
                            >
                            > Murder is murder whether or not it's my tribe that
                            > does it.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Lech
                            >
                            >
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