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RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers

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  • Zbigniew Bob Styrna
    Margaret, Thank you very much for this link. I read it twice. Just as I thought I knew a lot about our Kresy I read this It has opened my eyes tremendously
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 3, 2007
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      Margaret,

       

      Thank you very much for this link.  I read it twice.  Just as I thought I knew a lot about our Kresy I read this It has opened my eyes tremendously to the complexity of the issues at that time.

       

      Regards

       

      Zbigniew

       


      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of dalriach@...
      Sent: August 2, 2007 11:27 AM
      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers

       

      Interesting website giving a rather different view of the Bielski partisans from the Peter Duffy book

       

       

      Margaret Sierakowski

    • roman skulski
      Zbyszek, First of all you have wrong dates of deportations. Feb 17, 1939 that is some seven months before the war even started. Feb 10, 1939 is also
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 4, 2007
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        Zbyszek,
         
        First of all you have wrong dates of deportations.
         
        " Feb 17, 1939" that is some seven months before the war even started.
         
        "Feb 10, 1939" is also before the war.
         
         Majority of Ukrainians did not co-operate with the Russians, and many of them were deported to Siberia. .
         
        Un-armed civilians were not able to put up any resistance to armed NKVD personnel.
         
        On October 7, 1939 Polish Government ordered  Polish Army to go underground or try to make their way to France.
         
        Some Polish Army units crossed Carpathian mountains to Roumania where some of them were interned, but approximately 85,000 of them made their way to Palestine and France to continue the fight against  Germany.
         
        Russian deportations to Siberia were not based on individuals nationality but on individuals position before the war.Families of members of : police units, professional army personnel, government officials,etc. were first to be deported.
         
        Next were well to do farmers(kulaks). Their property was confiscated and and taken over by the state, to be used to create future "kolchoz"( collective farm").
         
        To my knowledge there no fights,shootings. etc. people just gave in......
         
        Cheers,
         
        Roman S.
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         


        Zbigniew Bob Styrna <styrna@...> wrote:
        Paulina, Eve, Elzunia, Michael, Bozenia, Krys and others,
        Thank you very much for your replies/input.
        Seems all the recollections are just like all my relative’s versions also.
        Right after Occupation by the Russians in Feb 17, 1939, they Collect/confiscated all the guns prior to deportations.  Then removed all Polish people from power job positions (a lot were arrested, etc) Then , on Feb 10, 1940, in the Middle of the night surprise attack, armed Russians and Ukrainians forcibly herded Polish civilians into cattle trains. To keep the ‘herd” from revolting/fighting back, they were not told by their captors that they were being deported to Siberia .
        I was interested in what resistance the Polish people put up in this situation.  Resistance against the Russians.  Not resistance against the Germans/Nazis, as was the case with the Bielski brothers.
        As you all know, the Bielski brothers story is about three Jewish fellows, Tuvis, Zus and Aasel  that resisted the Germans in 1941 in north eastern Poland (Kresy)  an area now known as Belarus . Their story started way after the time that all the Polish people were deported to Siberia .
        Around 2 Million Polish civilians were deported to Siberia from Kresy (eastern Poland ) prior to Germany attacking Eastern Poland/Russia.  
        So the question is, if the Bielski brothers and their 1200 people they saved from the Germans/Nazis,  why were they not deported to Siberia by the Russians in Feb 10, 1939 ( or the subsequent two other major deportations prior to the Germans invading/attacking Russia ) like the rest of the Polish people ?
        I already know about the brave heroics of the Jewish people during Nazi Occupation from western movies about “ Poland ” called  “The Pianist”,  “Schindler’s List”,  “Warszawa Uprising”, etc..   but where are similar movies of heroism by Polish persons during Russian occupation?
        Regards
        Zbigniew

        From: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Pauline Jarney
        Sent: August 1, 2007 7:28 PM
        To: kresy-siberia@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers
        Probably the  people who did fight back or resist are not here to tell us about it.  What would I do if in the middle of the night if soldiers knocked on my door with guns in hand and told me to pack because we were being deported.    I have no guns in my home.  I have three children.  Would I resist them so they would not kill my children before my very eyes to prove a point?  I would pack and pray for the best.  I pray we never have to face what our parents did.
        It still happens.  I do not want to deviate but we all have seen examples in the post WWII era.  Boleslaw was a brave man.  He followed his heart and could not leave his family.  That was a sign of unconditional love.   Someone should film a movie about him. 

        Best Regards,
        Paulina

        To: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com
        From: styrna@shaw. ca
        Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:13:31 -0700
        Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers
        The Bielski brothers, Tuvis, Zus and Aasel .   This book is about three Jewish brothers who escaped into the forests of Belarus in eastern Poland , and resisted German brutal treatment and managed to save some 1200 jews.
        That brings up an interesting question. It seems to me that almost 2 million Polish citizens were forcibly deported to Siberia .  In the middle of the night our ancestors were rounded up and crammed into cattle trains, etc ..  It seems from all the accounts I've read or listed to, that our ancestors "sheepishly"  were "herded" into those trains. Just like we see in films how Jews were rounded up and herded into Ghettos, and into .
        My question is ..  " did any Polish person or people, resist these deportation by the Russians ? "  Was there any one who fought with the Russians prior to being loaded into the trains?  They all knew they were being deported to Siberia !!  So why did we not do anything about it ?
        I know that in my family's case, my mom's brother escaped via a back door as the Russians broke into the house in the middle of the night.   He fled into the dense woods and hid overnight.  But alas, when the sunlight came, he saw a large number of the village people were herded together and they were all forced to march in the snow towards the train station several kilometers away.   So when Boleslaw saw his entire family departing, he could not bring himself to abandon them, to be left all alone I suppose.   It was a very hard emotional decision for him.
        So he unwillingly came out of the woods and sheepishly joined the herd.
        I wonder if there was any resistance ?  If there were any fights, shootings, etc.  or did we just give in....
        Regards
        Zbigniew

        From: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: Kresy- Siberia@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Jan Niechwiadowicz
        Sent: August 1, 2007 2:53 AM
        To: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers
        Dear Group,

        As you may be aware the story of the Bielski brothers is to be
        made into a movie. There are concerns amongst some of us that this
        will not give a fair impression of the role of Poles during the Second
        World War.

        I am currently reading Peter Duffy book, which I believe the film is
        to be based on. Am about ? of the way into the book and so far I have
        to say it appears fair. Has any other member read the book? I would
        like to know your views on it.

        Regards

        Jan Niechwiadowicz, Cardiff

         


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      • Zbigniew Bob Styrna
        Ha, ha . Roman, Yes , you are correct. I was wrong on the dates. It should have been Sept 17, 1939, and Feb 10, 1940 of course, probably due to old age and
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 5, 2007
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          Ha, ha …

           

          Roman, Yes , you are correct.  I was wrong on the dates. It should have been Sept 17, 1939, and Feb 10, 1940 of course, probably due to old age and poor typing skills.

           

           

          But I disagree with you. I believe that Most ukrainians co-operated with the Russians, and Some or very rare ones were deported. to Siberia .  None out of my mom’s village, just the one that tried to be sympathetic to Polish people prior to Feb 10.

           

          I was not trying to criticize people for not fighting.  Of course it would be silly of me to think that.  I know the conditions at that time very well. I just wanted to hear of any brave isolated untold stories.

           

          Cheers

           

          Zbigniew


          From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of roman skulski
          Sent: August 4, 2007 9:21 PM
          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers

           

          Zbyszek,

           

          First of all you have wrong dates of deportations.

           

          " Feb 17, 1939" that is some seven months before the war even started.

           

          "Feb 10, 1939" is also before the war.

           

           Majority of Ukrainians did not co-operate with the Russians, and many of them were deported to Siberia . .

           

          Un-armed civilians were not able to put up any resistance to armed NKVD personnel.

           

          On October 7, 1939 Polish Government ordered  Polish Army to go underground or try to make their way to France .

           

          Some Polish Army units crossed Carpathian mountains to Roumania where some of them were interned, but approximately 85,000 of them made their way to Palestine and France to continue the fight against  Germany .

           

          Russian deportations to Siberia were not based on individuals nationality but on individuals position before the war.Families of members of : police units, professional army personnel, government officials,etc. were first to be deported.

           

          Next were well to do farmers(kulaks) . Their property was confiscated and and taken over by the state, to be used to create future "kolchoz"( collective farm").

           

          To my knowledge there no fights,shootings. etc. people just gave in......

           

          Cheers,

           

          Roman S.

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           



          Zbigniew Bob Styrna <styrna@shaw. ca> wrote:

          Paulina, Eve, Elzunia, Michael, Bozenia, Krys and others,

          Thank you very much for your replies/input.

          Seems all the recollections are just like all my relative’s versions also.

          Right after Occupation by the Russians in Feb 17, 1939, they Collect/confiscated all the guns prior to deportations.  Then removed all Polish people from power job positions (a lot were arrested, etc) Then , on Feb 10, 1940, in the Middle of the night surprise attack, armed Russians and Ukrainians forcibly herded Polish civilians into cattle trains. To keep the ‘herd” from revolting/fighting back, they were not told by their captors that they were being deported to Siberia .

          I was interested in what resistance the Polish people put up in this situation.  Resistance against the Russians.  Not resistance against the Germans/Nazis, as was the case with the Bielski brothers.

          As you all know, the Bielski brothers story is about three Jewish fellows, Tuvis, Zus and Aasel  that resisted the Germans in 1941 in north eastern Poland (Kresy)  an area now known as Belarus . Their story started way after the time that all the Polish people were deported to Siberia .

          Around 2 Million Polish civilians were deported to Siberia from Kresy (eastern Poland ) prior to Germany attacking Eastern Poland/Russia.  

          So the question is, if the Bielski brothers and their 1200 people they saved from the Germans/Nazis,  why were they not deported to Siberia by the Russians in Feb 10, 1939 ( or the subsequent two other major deportations prior to the Germans invading/attacking Russia ) like the rest of the Polish people ?

          I already know about the brave heroics of the Jewish people during Nazi Occupation from western movies about “ Poland ” called  “The Pianist”,  “Schindler’s List”,  “Warszawa Uprising”, etc..   but where are similar movies of heroism by Polish persons during Russian occupation?

          Regards

          Zbigniew


          From: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Pauline Jarney
          Sent: August 1, 2007 7:28 PM
          To: kresy-siberia@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers

          Probably the  people who did fight back or resist are not here to tell us about it.  What would I do if in the middle of the night if soldiers knocked on my door with guns in hand and told me to pack because we were being deported.    I have no guns in my home.  I have three children.  Would I resist them so they would not kill my children before my very eyes to prove a point?  I would pack and pray for the best.  I pray we never have to face what our parents did.
          It still happens.  I do not want to deviate but we all have seen examples in the post WWII era.  Boleslaw was a brave man.  He followed his heart and could not leave his family.  That was a sign of unconditional love.   Someone should film a movie about him. 

          Best Regards,
          Paulina


          To: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com
          From: styrna@shaw. ca
          Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:13:31 -0700
          Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers

          The Bielski brothers, Tuvis, Zus and Aasel .   This book is about three Jewish brothers who escaped into the forests of Belarus in eastern Poland , and resisted German brutal treatment and managed to save some 1200 jews.

          That brings up an interesting question. It seems to me that almost 2 million Polish citizens were forcibly deported to Siberia .  In the middle of the night our ancestors were rounded up and crammed into cattle trains, etc ..  It seems from all the accounts I've read or listed to, that our ancestors "sheepishly"  were "herded" into those trains. Just like we see in films how Jews were rounded up and herded into Ghettos, and into .

          My question is ..  " did any Polish person or people, resist these deportation by the Russians ? "  Was there any one who fought with the Russians prior to being loaded into the trains?  They all knew they were being deported to Siberia !!  So why did we not do anything about it ?

          I know that in my family's case, my mom's brother escaped via a back door as the Russians broke into the house in the middle of the night.   He fled into the dense woods and hid overnight.  But alas, when the sunlight came, he saw a large number of the village people were herded together and they were all forced to march in the snow towards the train station several kilometers away.   So when Boleslaw saw his entire family departing, he could not bring himself to abandon them, to be left all alone I suppose.   It was a very hard emotional decision for him.

          So he unwillingly came out of the woods and sheepishly joined the herd.

          I wonder if there was any resistance ?  If there were any fights, shootings, etc.  or did we just give in....

          Regards

          Zbigniew

          size=2 width="100%" align=center>

          From: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: Kresy- Siberia@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Jan Niechwiadowicz
          Sent: August 1, 2007 2:53 AM
          To: Kresy-Siberia@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Help: Bielski brothers

          Dear Group,

          As you may be aware the story of the Bielski brothers is to be
          made into a movie. There are concerns amongst some of us that this
          will not give a fair impression of the role of Poles during the Second
          World War.

          I am currently reading Peter Duffy book, which I believe the film is
          to be based on. Am about ? of the way into the book and so far I have
          to say it appears fair. Has any other member read the book? I would
          like to know your views on it.

          Regards

          Jan Niechwiadowicz, Cardiff

           

           

           


          Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

        • Linder Ladbrooke
          Hello, Linder here. My family were kulaks , living 35 miles west of Lwow [now they can see Polish border from one of their fields, but they are in Ukraine]
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 5, 2007
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            Hello,
             
            Linder here. My family were 'kulaks', living 35 miles west of Lwow [now they can see Polish border from one of their fields, but they are in Ukraine] Ethnically Ukraine, but lived in Poland for 200/300 years. Family were never deported but their land became a 'collective farm'. Russians wanted all young men to join their army, dad ran the farm so he was excused. His younger brother + 2 friends ran away to the forest near Carpathians, hid for 1 week. Russians eventually found them and said 'come out, you will not be harmed boys' - they came out, were all lined up and SHOT, we have no idea where the body went to! Nice guy's, those Russians!
             
            Linder
          • roman skulski
            Hello, Here are my two cents about Russian Army. Between January and June 1941 Soviet Government conscripted some 100,000 to 200,000 Polish citizens living in
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 5, 2007
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              Hello,
               
              Here are my two cents about Russian Army.
               
              Between January and June 1941 Soviet Government conscripted some 100,000 to 200,000 Polish citizens living in Eastern Poland into Russian Army.
               
              At the time I was a teacher in a small village in the Carpathian Mountains. Early in April 1941 the principal of the school called me in to his office and handed me a document ordering me to report to the army recruiting office in Skole on April 15, 1941. It is on my 20th birthday. The principal also told me that there were a dozen local boys called  up for the  service  in the  Russian Army   and that I was going to be in charge of them until we reached recruiting office in Skole. 
              We reached Skole in the  afternoon and  appeared  in front of the health selection committee and were classified as fit for service in various fields of the army. In my case I assigned for service in a tank battalion.
               
              On May 1st, 1941  I arrived in Voroszylowsk in the Northern Caucasus and became a member of a tank battalion.
               
              On June 25th 1941 the tank battalion left for Smolensk, all soldiers with less than three months service, some 120 men, were left behind and I was ordered to march them to a local school. I was told that I was in charge of them and that I had to march them back to the barracks three times a day, for breakfast, lunch and supper. It lasted about three weeks and then I was  ordered to march them to the railway station on a certain day. We were loaded into the cattle waggons and transported to Stanica Krymskaya, near Novorosyysk.
               
              They lined the thousands of us in a field and split us into units of 120 men for service in various branches of the army. I found myself in a mortar battalion being trained to use 50mm, 75mm and 120mm mortars.
               
              We dug out trenches along the shore line and every night, when  Germans bombed  Nvorosyysk we had to leave our tents and establish defencive line in the trenches.
               
              That lasted until November when we were ordered to pack all our equipment and  we started march towards Stalingrad. We walked at night ,50km a night. On November 29, 1941 we reached the town of Salsk, half way to Stalingrad.
              We were ordered  to  stack our rifles in the square and we assumed that we were going to the public baths to be deloused and have a shower.
              Some armed officers and sergeants arrived and ordered us to line up. They marched us through the town and to the railway station where there was a freight train waiting. We were ordered to board the waggons and the doors were shut,there were no bunk beds and we all had to stand.
              The train travelled all afternoon and all night without stopping. It was bitterly cold.
              The whole mass of people was rotating ,people on the outside perimeter were cold and were trying to to squeeze into the centre where it was little warmer because of the generated body heat. There was a lot of pushing, showing and swearing.
              There was no sleep that night.
               
              Around 10.00-am the train stopped, the doors were  opened and the men were   told to get off the train. They were at a small station and looking around I could see a sign on a building " STANICA PAVLOVSKAYA".
               
              That is how I became a member of working battalion.
               
              To dig anti-tank trenches from 6.00am  to 7.00pm, 27 cubic meters a day, 7 days a week, on 400 grams of bread  watery soup for breakfast and supper and a large ladle of corn on a cob mash for lunch.
               
              If you did not dig out 27 cubic meters they cut your bread ration as an encouragement to do better.
               
              Cheers,
               
              Roman Skulski
              Poland and WWII 1939-1945
               
               
               
              Linder Ladbrooke <ladbrooke@...> wrote:
              Hello,
               
              Linder here. My family were 'kulaks', living 35 miles west of Lwow [now they can see Polish border from one of their fields, but they are in Ukraine] Ethnically Ukraine, but lived in Poland for 200/300 years. Family were never deported but their land became a 'collective farm'. Russians wanted all young men to join their army, dad ran the farm so he was excused. His younger brother + 2 friends ran away to the forest near Carpathians, hid for 1 week. Russians eventually found them and said 'come out, you will not be harmed boys' - they came out, were all lined up and SHOT, we have no idea where the body went to! Nice guy's, those Russians!
               
              Linder


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            • Zbigniew Bob Styrna
              Roman, Wow, Some nasty brutal dose of reality. Thank you for sharing this part of your life. God, it must have been terrible for a young man to survive back
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 5, 2007
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                Roman,

                 

                Wow,

                 

                Some nasty brutal dose of reality.  Thank you for sharing this part of your life. God, it must have been terrible for a young man to survive back then. 

                 

                And now all the young man talk about is ,……there is nothing on TV dad,   etc..     !!!

                 

                 

                Regards

                 

                Zbigniew

                 

                 

                 


                From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of roman skulski
                Sent: August 5, 2007 8:08 PM
                To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] RE: Conscription to Russian Army in 1941

                 

                Hello,

                 

                Here are my two cents about Russian Army.

                 

                Between January and June 1941 Soviet Government conscripted some 100,000 to 200,000 Polish citizens living in Eastern Poland into Russian Army.

                 

                At the time I was a teacher in a small village in the Carpathian Mountains . Early in April 1941 the principal of the school called me in to his office and handed me a document ordering me to report to the army recruiting office in Skole on April 15, 1941. It is on my 20th birthday. The principal also told me that there were a dozen local boys called  up for the  service  in the  Russian Army   and that I was going to be in charge of them until we reached recruiting office in Skole. 
                We reached Skole in the  afternoon and  appeared  in front of the health selection committee and were classified as fit for service in various fields of the army. In my case I assigned for service in a tank battalion.

                 

                On May 1st, 1941  I arrived in Voroszylowsk in the Northern Caucasus and became a member of a tank battalion.

                 

                On June 25th 1941 the tank battalion left for Smolensk , all soldiers with less than three months service, some 120 men, were left behind and I was ordered to march them to a local school. I was told that I was in charge of them and that I had to march them back to the barracks three times a day, for breakfast, lunch and supper. It lasted about three weeks and then I was  ordered to march them to the railway station on a certain day. We were loaded into the cattle waggons and transported to Stanica Krymskaya, near Novorosyysk.

                 

                They lined the thousands of us in a field and split us into units of 120 men for service in various branches of the army. I found myself in a mortar battalion being trained to use 50mm, 75mm and 120mm mortars.

                 

                We dug out trenches along the shore line and every night, when  Germans bombed  Nvorosyysk we had to leave our tents and establish defencive line in the trenches.

                 

                That lasted until November when we were ordered to pack all our equipment and  we started march towards Stalingrad . We walked at night ,50km a night. On November 29, 1941 we reached the town of Salsk , half way to Stalingrad .

                We were ordered  to  stack our rifles in the square and we assumed that we were going to the public baths to be deloused and have a shower.

                Some armed officers and sergeants arrived and ordered us to line up. They marched us through the town and to the railway station where there was a freight train waiting. We were ordered to board the waggons and the doors were shut,there were no bunk beds and we all had to stand.

                The train travelled all afternoon and all night without stopping. It was bitterly cold.

                The whole mass of people was rotating ,people on the outside perimeter were cold and were trying to to squeeze into the centre where it was little warmer because of the generated body heat. There was a lot of pushing, showing and swearing.

                There was no sleep that night.

                 

                Around 10.00-am the train stopped, the doors were  opened and the men were   told to get off the train. They were at a small station and looking around I could see a sign on a building " STANICA PAVLOVSKAYA" .

                 

                That is how I became a member of working battalion.

                 

                To dig anti-tank trenches from 6.00am  to 7.00pm, 27 cubic meters a day, 7 days a week, on 400 grams of bread  watery soup for breakfast and supper and a large ladle of corn on a cob mash for lunch.

                 

                If you did not dig out 27 cubic meters they cut your bread ration as an encouragement to do better.

                 

                Cheers,

                 

                Roman Skulski

                Poland and WWII 1939-1945

                 

                 

                 

                Linder Ladbrooke <ladbrooke@ntlworld. com> wrote:

                Hello,

                 

                Linder here. My family were 'kulaks', living 35 miles west of Lwow [now they can see Polish border from one of their fields, but they are in Ukraine ] Ethnically Ukraine , but lived in Poland for 200/300 years. Family were never deported but their land became a 'collective farm'. Russians wanted all young men to join their army, dad ran the farm so he was excused. His younger brother + 2 friends ran away to the forest near Carpathians, hid for 1 week. Russians eventually found them and said 'come out, you will not be harmed boys' - they came out, were all lined up and SHOT, we have no idea where the body went to! Nice guy's, those Russians!

                 

                Linder

                 

                 


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