Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Question for the group

Expand Messages
  • Lloydeen Glowacki
    I wonder if anyone has information on this aspect of the Siberian forced labor camps during 1940-41. I am currently reading a most interesting book, entitled
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 11, 2005
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      I wonder if anyone has information on this aspect of the Siberian
      forced labor camps during 1940-41. I am currently reading a most
      interesting book, entitled Exile and Identity - Polish Women in the
      Soviet Union During WW2- by Katherine R. Jolluck. Since I've been
      married to a survivor for so long, I've always been in awe at the
      strength these surviving women, including my cherished mother-in-law,
      had. This is an in-depth study of the statements written by the
      survivors as they exited the camps, from the Hoover Institute and
      elsewhere, specifically looking at what the women had to say.

      My husband's family was in the Vorkut system of camps, he thinks. His
      father went out to the forest to fell trees every day....but his mother
      and the other women in the camp did not have to work. They were only in
      the camp for a short time when his mother went into a nearby village
      and traded a ring she had sewn into her clothing for a goat so the
      children would have milk. She was also able to obtain supplemental food
      from the villages. George has no actual recollection of anything there,
      but this is what his parents told him, and what his mother told me. I
      believe this is why she was able to survive and the family was able to
      arrive in Iran intact.

      Do any other members of the group have this same experience, where the
      women were not forced to work? I'm wondering how common (or uncommon)
      this was.

      Thank you for any help.

      Terry Glowacki
      Palos Verdes, California
    • romlipin@cox.net
      Hi Terry, Your mother-in-law s experience was unique. In most cases women were forced to work and work very hard. When I was deported with my parents my mother
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 11, 2005
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Terry,
        Your mother-in-law's experience was unique. In most cases women were forced to work and work very hard. When I was deported with my parents my mother was exempt from work because of her age but I know from what my mother-in-law told me that she was working very hard cutting trees and as a janitor for a group of "zaks" (inmates) in a small labor camp. In Soviet Russia there was a general rule: who doesn't work doesn't eat. Of course that did not apply to the members of the Communist Party...
        Romuald

        >
        > From: Lloydeen Glowacki <lmglow@...>
        > Date: 2005/10/11 Tue AM 10:38:03 EDT
        > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Question for the group
        >
        > I wonder if anyone has information on this aspect of the Siberian
        > forced labor camps during 1940-41. I am currently reading a most
        > interesting book, entitled Exile and Identity - Polish Women in the
        > Soviet Union During WW2- by Katherine R. Jolluck. Since I've been
        > married to a survivor for so long, I've always been in awe at the
        > strength these surviving women, including my cherished mother-in-law,
        > had. This is an in-depth study of the statements written by the
        > survivors as they exited the camps, from the Hoover Institute and
        > elsewhere, specifically looking at what the women had to say.
        >
        > My husband's family was in the Vorkut system of camps, he thinks. His
        > father went out to the forest to fell trees every day....but his mother
        > and the other women in the camp did not have to work. They were only in
        > the camp for a short time when his mother went into a nearby village
        > and traded a ring she had sewn into her clothing for a goat so the
        > children would have milk. She was also able to obtain supplemental food
        > from the villages. George has no actual recollection of anything there,
        > but this is what his parents told him, and what his mother told me. I
        > believe this is why she was able to survive and the family was able to
        > arrive in Iran intact.
        >
        > Do any other members of the group have this same experience, where the
        > women were not forced to work? I'm wondering how common (or uncommon)
        > this was.
        >
        > Thank you for any help.
        >
        > Terry Glowacki
        > Palos Verdes, California
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ****************************************************************************
        > KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
        > "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
        > deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        > ****************************************************************************
        > Discussion site :?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
        > Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
        > Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
        > Film and info?:?http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
        > ****************************************************************************
        > To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
        > saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
        > Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > ****************************************************************************
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Zosia Krukowska
        Hello Terry, My mother told me very few stories about the labour camps. What I do know is that she did have some school lessons there. I wonder if the
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 11, 2005
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Terry,
           
          My mother told me very few stories about the labour camps.  What I do know is that she did have some school lessons there. I wonder if the photograph I have from Siberia is perhaps a 'class photo'. It was forbidden to speak Polish. It could be that they were only having language lessons.  It was a bitter memory for my mother and she remembers how she and her friends had to secretly speak in Polish with the threat of punishment if they were caught.  My mother was 14 at the time of their deportation.  Her sister was about 10 years older than her and she was sent out into the forest to work.  It was so cold that at the end of the day when she returned to the camp she would take off her pants and stand them up in the corner because they were frozen.  I never heard mention of what my grandmother did during that time.  After recently uncovering her handwritten prayer book I know that she fervently prayed during that time for the safe return of all her loved ones and fellow Poles to their homeland.
           
          Zosia
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:38 AM
          Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Question for the group

          I wonder if anyone has information on this aspect of the Siberian
          forced labor camps during 1940-41. I am currently reading a most
          interesting book, entitled Exile and Identity - Polish Women in the
          Soviet Union During WW2- by Katherine R. Jolluck. Since I've been
          married to a survivor for so long, I've always been in awe at the
          strength these surviving women, including my cherished mother-in-law,
          had. This is an in-depth study of the statements written by the
          survivors as they exited the camps, from the Hoover Institute and
          elsewhere, specifically looking at what the women had to say.

          My husband's family was in the Vorkut system of camps, he thinks. His
          father went out to the forest to fell trees every day....but his mother
          and the other women in the camp did not have to work. They were only in
          the camp for a short time when his mother went into a nearby village
          and traded a ring she had sewn into her clothing for a goat so the
          children would have milk. She was also able to obtain supplemental food
          from the villages. George has no actual recollection of anything there,
          but this is what his parents told him, and what his mother told me. I
          believe this is why she was able to survive and the family was able to
          arrive in Iran intact.

          Do any other members of the group have this same experience, where the
          women were not forced to work? I'm wondering how common (or uncommon)
          this was.

          Thank you for any help.

          Terry Glowacki
          Palos Verdes, California

        • Basia Garnier
          Morning, Yes women did work, and work very hard. My mother was only 15 years old, and within that year had made 20,000 bricks with her bare feet!! That was
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 13, 2005
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Morning,
            Yes women did work, and work very hard. My mother was only 15 years old,
            and within that year had made 20,000 bricks with her bare feet!! That was
            over a period of 3 months. She looked after pigs, herded sheep, grew
            vegetable gardens (not for their consumption) and was even seconded to a
            factory which built tractors. The only day off was May 1st.
            Regards. Basia

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <romlipin@...>
            To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 5:37 PM
            Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Question for the group


            Hi Terry,
            Your mother-in-law's experience was unique. In most cases women were forced
            to work and work very hard. When I was deported with my parents my mother
            was exempt from work because of her age but I know from what my
            mother-in-law told me that she was working very hard cutting trees and as a
            janitor for a group of "zaks" (inmates) in a small labor camp. In Soviet
            Russia there was a general rule: who doesn't work doesn't eat. Of course
            that did not apply to the members of the Communist Party...
            Romuald

            >
            > From: Lloydeen Glowacki <lmglow@...>
            > Date: 2005/10/11 Tue AM 10:38:03 EDT
            > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Question for the group
            >
            > I wonder if anyone has information on this aspect of the Siberian
            > forced labor camps during 1940-41. I am currently reading a most
            > interesting book, entitled Exile and Identity - Polish Women in the
            > Soviet Union During WW2- by Katherine R. Jolluck. Since I've been
            > married to a survivor for so long, I've always been in awe at the
            > strength these surviving women, including my cherished mother-in-law,
            > had. This is an in-depth study of the statements written by the
            > survivors as they exited the camps, from the Hoover Institute and
            > elsewhere, specifically looking at what the women had to say.
            >
            > My husband's family was in the Vorkut system of camps, he thinks. His
            > father went out to the forest to fell trees every day....but his mother
            > and the other women in the camp did not have to work. They were only in
            > the camp for a short time when his mother went into a nearby village
            > and traded a ring she had sewn into her clothing for a goat so the
            > children would have milk. She was also able to obtain supplemental food
            > from the villages. George has no actual recollection of anything there,
            > but this is what his parents told him, and what his mother told me. I
            > believe this is why she was able to survive and the family was able to
            > arrive in Iran intact.
            >
            > Do any other members of the group have this same experience, where the
            > women were not forced to work? I'm wondering how common (or uncommon)
            > this was.
            >
            > Thank you for any help.
            >
            > Terry Glowacki
            > Palos Verdes, California
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ****************************************************************************
            > KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
            > "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish
            > citizens
            > deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
            > ****************************************************************************
            > Discussion site :?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
            > Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
            > Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
            > Film and info?:?http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
            > ****************************************************************************
            > To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
            > saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
            > Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > ****************************************************************************
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




            ****************************************************************************
            KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
            "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
            deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
            ****************************************************************************
            Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
            Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
            Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
            Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
            ****************************************************************************
            To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
            saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
            Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
            ****************************************************************************
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Elizabeth Olsson
            I have recently been talking to my mother about life at the camp (Monastyriok, nr Kotlas): She said that her mother didn’t work either; she stayed home and
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 23, 2005
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment

              I have recently been talking to my mother about life at the camp (Monastyriok, nr Kotlas):

               

              She said that her mother didn’t work either; she stayed home and looked after the family.

               

              They were paid in cash (not coupons). Only people who worked got paid.

              They had a shop where they could buy bread (but it was rationed: 800 gr for workers, 400 gr for non-workers (children, sick).

               

              Her mother used to pick mushrooms and berries in the forest, which was an important addition to their diets. They had received seeds from Poland so could grow vegetables outside their barrack. They grew huge potatoes she said, because the days were light so long, even though the summer was very short. They even had a food cellar.

               

              All questions are welcome – my mother remembers Siberia in detail – I’m glad to get questions from our members, so that I can learn more myself – while my mother’s still here to answer them. So ask away!

               

              Pozdrowienia

              Elzunia

              Sweden

              Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:38 AM

              Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Question for the group

              I wonder if anyone has information on this aspect of the Siberian
              forced labor camps during 1940-41
              ..
              My husband's family was in the Vorkut system of camps, he thinks. His
              father went out to the forest to fell trees every day....but his mother
              and the other women in the camp did not have to work.
              Do any other members of the group have this same experience, where the
              women were not forced to work? I'm wondering how common (or uncommon)
              this was.
               
              Terry Glowacki
              Palos Verdes, California


            • Walter Orlowski
              Lloyd Glowacki and Liz Olsson, that was a very good question, which I missed the first time around. It is a topic worth revisiting. To start with we should ask
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 24, 2005
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment

                Lloyd Glowacki and Liz Olsson, that was a very good question, which I missed the first time around. It is a topic worth revisiting. To start with we should ask what kind of camps people were sent to? They were either prisons, lagers, or “free settlements” which included collectives or kolhozes. In lagiers we would find common criminals and political prisoners (anyone that NKVD deemed to be a threat to the Soviet system). The penal colonies where most exiles were sent were called “free settlements” where many minorities within the Soviet Union were also interned. Here the prisoners were paid, but money had no value except to buy allotted food rations. For most Polish prisoners the distinction between a lager and a “free settlement” was largely semantic, since both were forced labor camps or a type of concentration camp. If you get a chance try to get a hold of book through Used Book department of Barnes and Noble entitled “The Dark Side of the Moon” published in 1944 with General Sikorski’s blessing and based on documents in Polish Government’s possession. The author is anonymous and the book was meant to counter pro-Soviet propaganda at that time. That book describes in some detail the different types of camps and conditions in the various camps.  Unfortunately, the book has disappeared from the shelves of public libraries.

                Did women work in all of these camps? I believe that the answer is yes for the vast majority of women. The general rule in the Soviet system was that if one does not work one does not eat. However, there was a big difference in the kind of “work” they did and whether they were with a family or alone. Zofia Orlowska in her book “Tajgo, Pamietna Tajgo” describes the hard labour and extreme conditions under which women worked in her camp, often to exhaustion. They essentially did the same work as men, working in a logging camp. Likewise, Gryzelda Niziol Lachocka  in her book “Goodbye Tomorrow” describes her family's experience ( a mother and five daughters), who had to work in factories and do domestic work in the city of Archangielsk. Their camp was located near the city itself.

                Elzunia, my mother’s experience was somewhat similar to your mother’s (or is it your grandmother’s?), except that she had to “work”, either doing laundry or “guard duty” (that is a story in itself). Also our food allotments were considerably smaller. It was hard to grow potatoes in our camp. Because of the nagging hunger,  the kids would dig them out when they were still small and green and eat them raw. I noticed that you did post more information about your mother's camp so I will follow up on that latter.



                Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...> wrote:

                I have recently been talking to my mother about life at the camp (Monastyriok, nr Kotlas):

                 

                She said that her mother didn’t work either; she stayed home and looked after the family.

                 

                They were paid in cash (not coupons). Only people who worked got paid.

                They had a shop where they could buy bread (but it was rationed: 800 gr for workers, 400 gr for non-workers (children, sick).

                 

                Her mother used to pick mushrooms and berries in the forest, which was an important addition to their diets. They had received seeds from Poland so could grow vegetables outside their barrack. They grew huge potatoes she said, because the days were light so long, even though the summer was very short. They even had a food cellar.

                 

                All questions are welcome – my mother remembers Siberia in detail – I’m glad to get questions from our members, so that I can learn more myself – while my mother’s still here to answer them. So ask away!

                 

                Pozdrowienia

                Elzunia

                Sweden

                Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:38 AM

                Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Question for the group

                I wonder if anyone has information on this aspect of the Siberian
                forced labor camps during 1940-41
                ..
                My husband's family was in the Vorkut system of camps, he thinks. His
                father went out to the forest to fell trees every day....but his mother
                and the other women in the camp did not have to work.
                Do any other members of the group have this same experience, where the
                women were not forced to work? I'm wondering how common (or uncommon)
                this was.
                 
                Terry Glowacki
                Palos Verdes, California



                Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
              • Andy Golebiowski
                In an unsigned post someone wrote: Unfortunately, the book ( The Dark Side of the Moon ) has disappeared from the shelves of public libraries. This is a
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 24, 2005
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  In an unsigned post someone wrote:

                  "Unfortunately, the book ("The Dark Side of the Moon" ) has disappeared from the shelves
                  of public libraries."

                  This is a very broad statement. Does the author mean "all public libraries" in the world, in
                  a certain country, on a certain continent ? Which libraries was it available in from where it
                  disappeared ? Which libraries has the anonymous author of this statement checked ?
                  If the members of the group could be told from which libraries the book disappeared,
                  maybe we can help to get the book to appear again.

                  I think that if we are interested in the accurate dissemination of history, we need to be
                  precise in our language.

                  Andy Golebiowski
                  Buffalo, NY
                  USA


                  --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Walter Orlowski <walter_orlowski@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Lloyd Glowacki and Liz Olsson, that was a very good question, which I missed the first
                  time around. It is a topic worth revisiting. To start with we should ask what kind of camps
                • Andy Golebiowski
                  The book The Dark Side of the Moon mentioned as having disappeared from the shelves of public libraries appears in the catalog of the Buffalo and Erie County
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 24, 2005
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The book "The Dark Side of the Moon" mentioned as having disappeared from the shelves
                    of public libraries appears in the catalog of the Buffalo and Erie County Public Libraries in
                    New York State in the United States.

                    Perhaps it is available to some of you through inter-library loan.

                    The library record for the book is on:
                    "http://web2.buffalolib.org/web2/tramp2.exe/goto/A0d1rian.002?
                    screen=Record.html&server=1home&item=7&item_source=1home&start=0&info_type=M
                    ore"

                    According to the online catalog of the University of California in the U.S., the book is
                    available at a number of its libraries. One can check at:
                    "http://tinyurl.com/dvsh8"

                    This was done through a Google search that took about 30 minutes.
                    Granted, they may be in the catalogs but "disappeared from the shelves".

                    Andy Golebiowski
                    Buffalo, NY
                    USA
                  • joyce kelly
                    Dear Walter, This book Dark Side of the Moon is said to be in California State University Sacramento. I will go to check it out tomorrow if it is on the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 24, 2005
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Walter,
                       
                      This book Dark Side of the Moon is said to be in California State University Sacramento.  I will go to check it out tomorrow if it is on the shelf.  I do not have a scanner to copy information--but if there is something you want me to look up in let me know. 
                       
                      Dark Side of the Moon  232 pages  A History of the relations between Poland and the USSR 1939-1945, Call # D754.P7D3, London, Faber and Faber Publishers 1946
                       
                      Subjects: WW2 1939-1945 Prisoner and Prisons, Russia
                      Poland-History-Occpation-1939-1945
                       
                      Joyce Kelly  California

                      Walter Orlowski <walter_orlowski@...> wrote:

                      Lloyd Glowacki and Liz Olsson, that was a very good question, which I missed the first time around. It is a topic worth revisiting. To start with we should ask what kind of camps people were sent to? They were either prisons, lagers, or “free settlements” which included collectives or kolhozes. In lagiers we would find common criminals and political prisoners (anyone that NKVD deemed to be a threat to the Soviet system). The penal colonies where most exiles were sent were called “free settlements” where many minorities within the Soviet Union were also interned. Here the prisoners were paid, but money had no value except to buy allotted food rations. For most Polish prisoners the distinction between a lager and a “free settlement” was largely semantic, since both were forced labor camps or a type of concentration camp. If you get a chance try to get a hold of book through Used Book department of Barnes and Noble entitled “The Dark Side of the Moon” published in 1944 with General Sikorski’s blessing and based on documents in Polish Government’s possession. The author is anonymous and the book was meant to counter pro-Soviet propaganda at that time. That book describes in some detail the different types of camps and conditions in the various camps.  Unfortunately, the book has disappeared from the shelves of public libraries.


                      Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

                    • Lloydeen Glowacki
                      Elizabeth, thank you so much for posting your answer! I was beginning to think that something was terribly wrong, that my husband s mother was the ONLY one who
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Elizabeth, thank you so much for posting your answer! I was beginning to think that
                        something was terribly wrong, that my husband's mother was the ONLY one who didn't
                        have to work. What your mother says is pretty much what my husband remembers hearing
                        from his mother. They also got packages from family, which helped tremendously. I guess
                        they were extremely fortunate, and the whole family (my husband, his sister and their
                        parents) made it out and came to the States in 1952. His father and mother both nearly
                        died on their way out and after they got to Persia, though.

                        Terry Glowacki
                        Palos Verdes, California
                      • Walter Orlowski
                        Andy: My comment on disappearance of the book from the shelves of public libraries is based solely on my personal experience. I should have said “the books
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Andy:

                          My comment on disappearance of the book from the shelves of public libraries is based solely on my personal experience. I should have said “the books are disappearing” rather than disappeared completely. When I first came to the US in 1951, I lived close to the main NYC library on 42nd  Street, where I discovered the book on the shelves of circulating books. I spent a lot of time in that library. Before I left the area four years latter the book was no longer there and the collection of books on Polish subjects got smaller. A few years ago I paid a nostalgic visit to that library, after the renovation, and I was surprised by the paucity of books on Polish subjects on the shelves, although there is a special section on Eastern Europe of non-circulating books, which I have not checked out.

                           

                          I have lived in Bergen County, NJ for some time now and have been unable to locate the book in the catalogue or the shelves. It is a rather populous county. Fortuitously, I discovered the book in a library in Wellsville, NY (about 100 miles south of Buffalo) several years ago. But the last two years I have been unable to find the book, although it may still be listed. It was not signed out.

                           

                          It is not the only book on Polish subjects that is disappearing. The White Book and the Black Book of Poland, the first attempts to inform the English and American public about Nazi crimes, is harder and harder to find. In my local library we do have the Black Book of Poland but not the other.

                           

                          I did not want to imply some conspiracy, but rather that these books have been out of print for some time, and if someone does not return a book it is unlikely to be replaced. The good news is that there are vendors of used books who may have it. The cost is usually under $10.00.  

                           

                          I have two copies. By chance my daughter found one book on a table of a Manhattan Street vendor, and I found one through the internet in the Barnes and Noble used book section.  

                           

                          I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.

                           

                          Walter Orlowski

                          Teaneck, NJ

                           



                          Andy Golebiowski <andywbuffalo@...> wrote:

                          In an unsigned post someone wrote:

                          "Unfortunately, the book ("The Dark Side of the Moon" ) has disappeared from the shelves
                          of public libraries."

                          This is a very broad statement. Does the author mean "all public libraries" in the world, in
                          a certain country, on a certain continent ? Which libraries was it available in from where it
                          disappeared ? Which libraries has the anonymous author of this statement checked ?
                          If the members of the group could be told from which libraries the book disappeared,
                          maybe we can help to get the book to appear again.

                          I think that if we are interested in the accurate dissemination of history, we need to be
                          precise in our language.

                          Andy Golebiowski
                          Buffalo, NY
                          USA


                          --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Walter Orlowski <walter_orlowski@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Lloyd Glowacki and Liz Olsson, that was a very good question, which I missed the first
                          time around. It is a topic worth revisiting. To start with we should ask what kind of camps




                          Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
                        • Andy Golebiowski
                          Dear Walter, Thank you kindly for your reply. I know a little bit about libraries, and I think that collections are often culled based on circulation. It s
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Walter,
                            Thank you kindly for your reply. I know a little bit about libraries, and I think that
                            collections are often "culled" based on circulation. It's wonderful that your daughter is
                            interested in looking for books such as Dark Side of the Moon, but I wonder how many
                            other of our 2nd generationers are.

                            I would suggest donating copies of books to libraries (or suggesting a list of books for
                            purchase), as Frank Milewski of the Polish American Congress does in New York with
                            "Forgotten Holocaust" and other books, keeping in mind that a library is not compelled to
                            keep those books. Here in Buffalo, we have a Catholic college run by Polish-American nuns
                            where people have found books in the dumpster with dedications written in them. I myself
                            found boxes of Polish books in the dumpster of a Polish church, so it's not easy.

                            I wonder, however, if someone can approach the New York Public Library and the ones in
                            New Jersey and find out what their policies for acquisition and removal are. New Jersey's
                            Polish population is growing by leaps and bounds, and you may have some pull.

                            All the best,

                            Andy Golebiowski
                            Buffalo, New York (my brother lives in Manhattan)
                            USA

                            --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Walter Orlowski <walter_orlowski@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Andy:
                            >
                            > My comment on disappearance of the book from the shelves of public libraries is based
                            solely on my personal experience. I should have said "the books are disappearing" rather
                            than disappeared completely. When I first came to the US in 1951, I lived close to the main
                            NYC library on 42nd Street, where I discovered the book on the shelves of circulating
                            books. I spent a lot of time in that library. Before I left the area four years latter the book
                            was no longer there and the collection of books on Polish subjects got smaller. A few years
                            ago I paid a nostalgic visit to that library, after the renovation, and I was surprised by the
                            paucity of books on Polish subjects on the shelves, although there is a special section on
                            Eastern Europe of non-circulating books, which I have not checked out.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I have lived in Bergen County, NJ for some time now and have been unable to locate the
                            book in the catalogue or the shelves. It is a rather populous county. Fortuitously, I
                            discovered the book in a library in Wellsville, NY (about 100 miles south of Buffalo) several
                            years ago. But the last two years I have been unable to find the book, although it may still
                            be listed. It was not signed out.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > It is not the only book on Polish subjects that is disappearing. The White Book and the
                            Black Book of Poland, the first attempts to inform the English and American public about
                            Nazi crimes, is harder and harder to find. In my local library we do have the Black Book of
                            Poland but not the other.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I did not want to imply some conspiracy, but rather that these books have been out of
                            print for some time, and if someone does not return a book it is unlikely to be replaced.
                            The good news is that there are vendors of used books who may have it. The cost is
                            usually under $10.00.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I have two copies. By chance my daughter found one book on a table of a Manhattan
                            Street vendor, and I found one through the internet in the Barnes and Noble used book
                            section.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Walter Orlowski
                            >
                            > Teaneck, NJ
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Andy Golebiowski <andywbuffalo@y...> wrote:
                            > In an unsigned post someone wrote:
                            >
                            > "Unfortunately, the book ("The Dark Side of the Moon" ) has disappeared from the
                            shelves
                            > of public libraries."
                            >
                            > This is a very broad statement. Does the author mean "all public libraries" in the world,
                            in
                            > a certain country, on a certain continent ? Which libraries was it available in from where
                            it
                            > disappeared ? Which libraries has the anonymous author of this statement checked ?
                            > If the members of the group could be told from which libraries the book disappeared,
                            > maybe we can help to get the book to appear again.
                            >
                            > I think that if we are interested in the accurate dissemination of history, we need to be
                            > precise in our language.
                            >
                            > Andy Golebiowski
                            > Buffalo, NY
                            > USA
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Walter Orlowski <walter_orlowski@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Lloyd Glowacki and Liz Olsson, that was a very good question, which I missed the first
                            > time around. It is a topic worth revisiting. To start with we should ask what kind of
                            camps
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ****************************************************************************
                            > KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                            > "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                            > deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                            > ****************************************************************************
                            > Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                            > Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                            > Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                            > Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                            > ****************************************************************************
                            > To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                            > saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                            > Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > ****************************************************************************
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > SPONSORED LINKS
                            > Poland travel Poland vacation Call poland Poland calling card Poland car rental Warsaw
                            poland
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            >
                            > Visit your group "Kresy-Siberia" on the web.
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
                            >
                          • BBF1000@aol.com
                            Just to add my experience to this subject. I 1940 we were sent to a special exile settlement which was neither a concentration camps nor a free settlement.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                                  Just to add my experience to this subject. I 1940 we were sent to a special exile settlement which was neither a concentration camps nor a "free settlement." It was an abandoned mining village about 10 miles from the nearest Russian village. During the summer, trucks took men and most women every day to work in gold mines. During winter months those men and women lived in special barracks in the Russian village and worked in mines alongside with Russian workers. The Polish workers were brought back to their families on Sundays. Women with small children did not have to work. I am not sure what the definition of a small child was but I was ten and my mother did not work.
                               
                                  Our situation changed after the German invasion of Russia. We were moved to Russian settlements and lived among the Russians. We were still 600 miles from the nearest railroad station - 1000 miles away considering the circuitous route along the rivers. Our situation was still bad but it was an  improvement over our initial fate when we were told we would die in the taiga and we better forget our Poland. The local Russians, unlike NKVD, were helpful, and I attended Russian schools. Perhaps, more important, we now dared to hope we would return to Poland. Our location was a village near Bodaybo, Irkutskaja Oblast on the Vitim river.
                               
                              Bronek
                              Boston, MA
                              USA.
                               
                               
                            • Walter Orlowski
                              Dear Joyce: I do have this book at home, and I will try to scan some of the relevant pages, although I have some problem with my software for scanning. This
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Dear Joyce:

                                 

                                I do have this book at home, and I will try to scan some of the relevant pages, although I have some problem with my software for scanning. This book is a good source of basic information about the structure of the extensive Soviet prison system, and delineates the differences between prisons, lagiers (lagers) and “free exile” or “free settlements”(posiolki, kolhozy etc). Pages 10-13 try to define these terms and draw the fine distinction. Then there are separate chapters on “Prisons” and on “Penal Camps” (free settlements) and personal narratives. There is wealth of information in it.

                                 

                                Walter Orlowski

                                 



                                joyce kelly <joyjoykelly@...> wrote:
                                Dear Walter,
                                 
                                This book Dark Side of the Moon is said to be in California State University Sacramento.  I will go to check it out tomorrow if it is on the shelf.  I do not have a scanner to copy information--but if there is something you want me to look up in let me know. 
                                 
                                Dark Side of the Moon  232 pages  A History of the relations between Poland and the USSR 1939-1945, Call # D754.P7D3, London, Faber and Faber Publishers 1946
                                 
                                Subjects: WW2 1939-1945 Prisoner and Prisons, Russia
                                Poland-History-Occpation-1939-1945
                                 
                                Joyce Kelly  California

                                Walter Orlowski <walter_orlowski@...> wrote:

                                Lloyd Glowacki and Liz Olsson, that was a very good question, which I missed the first time around. It is a topic worth revisiting. To start with we should ask what kind of camps people were sent to? They were either prisons, lagers, or “free settlements” which included collectives or kolhozes. In lagiers we would find common criminals and political prisoners (anyone that NKVD deemed to be a threat to the Soviet system). The penal colonies where most exiles were sent were called “free settlements” where many minorities within the Soviet Union were also interned. Here the prisoners were paid, but money had no value except to buy allotted food rations. For most Polish prisoners the distinction between a lager and a “free settlement” was largely semantic, since both were forced labor camps or a type of concentration camp. If you get a chance try to get a hold of book through Used Book department of Barnes and Noble entitled “The Dark Side of the Moon” published in 1944 with General Sikorski’s blessing and based on documents in Polish Government’s possession. The author is anonymous and the book was meant to counter pro-Soviet propaganda at that time. That book describes in some detail the different types of camps and conditions in the various camps.  Unfortunately, the book has disappeared from the shelves of public libraries.


                                Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.


                                Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
                              • Lloydeen Glowacki
                                Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I m trying to figure out what determined the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I'm trying to figure out what determined
                                  the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed a forest near
                                  Luboml. That means, I guess, that he worked for the Polish government. As I understand
                                  it, when the deportees were taken from their homes, they were "charged" with some kind
                                  of "crime" for which they were being arrested. My husband doesn't remember his father
                                  ever saying what he was "charged" with. (I've read in one book that foresters were taken in
                                  the first roundup because the Russians were afraid that people would try to escape
                                  through the forests.) At any rate, the whole family was taken to the train station at Luck.
                                  Now...were people split up and taken to different camps from various cattle cars, or did
                                  everyone from one car go to the same camp? Were some camps made up of only foresters?
                                  I assume foresters were used to fell trees because that was the most demeaning work
                                  someone who had managed a forest could be forced to do?

                                  My husband's family stayed together. His father told him the story of how his axe broke,
                                  and their rations were cut severely to "pay" for the broken axe.

                                  I'll try to get a copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon". Thanks for the reference.
                                  Again, thanks to all for telling us what you remember.

                                  Terry Glowacki
                                  Palos Verdes, California
                                • Lloydeen Glowacki
                                  Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I m trying to figure out what determined the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I'm trying to figure out what determined
                                    the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed a forest near
                                    Luboml. That means, I guess, that he worked for the Polish government. As I understand
                                    it, when the deportees were taken from their homes, they were "charged" with some kind
                                    of "crime" for which they were being arrested. My husband doesn't remember his father
                                    ever saying what he was "charged" with. (I've read in one book that foresters were taken in
                                    the first roundup because the Russians were afraid that people would try to escape
                                    through the forests.) At any rate, the whole family was taken to the train station at Luck.
                                    Now...were people split up and taken to different camps from various cattle cars, or did
                                    everyone from one car go to the same camp? Were some camps made up of only foresters?
                                    I assume foresters were used to fell trees because that was the most demeaning work
                                    someone who had managed a forest could be forced to do?

                                    My husband's family stayed together. His father told him the story of how his axe broke,
                                    and their rations were cut severely to "pay" for the broken axe.

                                    I'll try to get a copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon". Thanks for the reference.
                                    Again, thanks to all for telling us what you remember.

                                    Terry Glowacki
                                    Palos Verdes, California
                                  • Chris@Gniewosz.com
                                    Terry, 1) Many Polish forests were owned by private individuals who would sometimes hire a forester to care for the forest. Sometimes the tools, equipment
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Terry,
                                      1) Many Polish forests were owned by private individuals who would sometimes
                                      hire a "forester" to care for the forest. Sometimes the tools, equipment and
                                      livestock were owned by the forester and rented to the owner. Some noble
                                      estates were so-called "forested estates". The forester might also hire
                                      people to work for him and he contracted with the owner to harvest or do
                                      other work in the forest. Foresters were important, and often highly
                                      respected. They were armed to protect the forest and the animals in them.
                                      They had to have the capacity to hold authority and be good managers. They
                                      certainly were heavily relied upon to protect valuable resources. Some
                                      foresters were hired after having obtained college educations (which was
                                      itself not a common accomplishment). Some had their jobs for life, possibly
                                      intergenerational if the individuals proved capable. Being a forester, in
                                      the case of my family’s experience, was a superior position. In my book
                                      NOBLE FLIGHT: A Family's Exodus and Survival During World War II (In
                                      pre-publication), there are several references to foresters and the respect
                                      they were accorded.
                                      2) Harvesting trees, to this day, yes even in America, is an ongoing
                                      dangerous but necessary and important job (My understanding is that in the
                                      State of Oregon, which has a lot of forests, logging is considered by the
                                      State insurance fund to be the most dangerous job in the State). Forests
                                      were and are an important national asset, to the point that harvesting
                                      trees, even in private forests, is often highly regulated. This was true in
                                      Poland prior to WWII. You had to get a permit to cut down trees even in your
                                      own forest. In Russia with Polish workers, I would expect that having
                                      low-cost, expendable workers was the emphasis, more than any interest in
                                      demeaning or punishing anyone, though that may be how forced laborers felt.
                                      3) The though of people escaping through forests was real, my Mother's
                                      family did. Some Polish forests were never controlled by Germans or Russians
                                      but were held by Polish troops long after capitulation of the nation.
                                      Best regards,
                                      Chris Gniewosz

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On
                                      Behalf Of Lloydeen Glowacki
                                      Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:31 AM
                                      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Question for the group


                                      Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I'm trying to figure out
                                      what determined
                                      the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed a
                                      forest near
                                      Luboml. That means, I guess, that he worked for the Polish government. As I
                                      understand
                                      it, when the deportees were taken from their homes, they were "charged" with
                                      some kind
                                      of "crime" for which they were being arrested. My husband doesn't remember
                                      his father
                                      ever saying what he was "charged" with. (I've read in one book that
                                      foresters were taken in
                                      the first roundup because the Russians were afraid that people would try to
                                      escape
                                      through the forests.) At any rate, the whole family was taken to the train
                                      station at Luck.
                                      Now...were people split up and taken to different camps from various cattle
                                      cars, or did
                                      everyone from one car go to the same camp? Were some camps made up of only
                                      foresters?
                                      I assume foresters were used to fell trees because that was the most
                                      demeaning work
                                      someone who had managed a forest could be forced to do?

                                      My husband's family stayed together. His father told him the story of how
                                      his axe broke,
                                      and their rations were cut severely to "pay" for the broken axe.

                                      I'll try to get a copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon". Thanks for the
                                      reference.
                                      Again, thanks to all for telling us what you remember.

                                      Terry Glowacki
                                      Palos Verdes, California






                                      ****************************************************************************
                                      KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                                      "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                                      deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                                      ****************************************************************************
                                      Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                                      Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                                      Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                                      Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                                      ****************************************************************************
                                      To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                                      saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                                      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                      ****************************************************************************
                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Roma King
                                      Dear Loyd, My Mother told me that when they were being taken to Siberia in the cattle train cars...they travelled close to two weeks, with daily ration of one
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                                      View Source
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Loyd,
                                        My Mother told me that when they were being taken to Siberia in the cattle
                                        train cars...they travelled close to two weeks, with daily ration of one big
                                        cup of soup, which was practically nothing more than liquid with a few
                                        pieces of potato, and a thick slice of dark bread( daily ration ).
                                        After close to two weeks, the train would stop and they would unload about
                                        30 people and the train moved on...and so it was at most stations...we were
                                        the last group of 24 that was unloaded at some God forsaken little station
                                        in the middle of the winter.
                                        Roma

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]
                                        On Behalf Of Lloydeen Glowacki
                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:31 AM
                                        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Question for the group

                                        Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I'm trying to figure out
                                        what determined
                                        the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed a
                                        forest near
                                        Luboml. That means, I guess, that he worked for the Polish government. As I
                                        understand
                                        it, when the deportees were taken from their homes, they were "charged" with
                                        some kind
                                        of "crime" for which they were being arrested. My husband doesn't remember
                                        his father
                                        ever saying what he was "charged" with. (I've read in one book that
                                        foresters were taken in
                                        the first roundup because the Russians were afraid that people would try to
                                        escape
                                        through the forests.) At any rate, the whole family was taken to the train
                                        station at Luck.
                                        Now...were people split up and taken to different camps from various cattle
                                        cars, or did
                                        everyone from one car go to the same camp? Were some camps made up of only
                                        foresters?
                                        I assume foresters were used to fell trees because that was the most
                                        demeaning work
                                        someone who had managed a forest could be forced to do?

                                        My husband's family stayed together. His father told him the story of how
                                        his axe broke,
                                        and their rations were cut severely to "pay" for the broken axe.

                                        I'll try to get a copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon". Thanks for the
                                        reference.
                                        Again, thanks to all for telling us what you remember.

                                        Terry Glowacki
                                        Palos Verdes, California






                                        ****************************************************************************
                                        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                                        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                                        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                                        ****************************************************************************
                                        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                                        Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                                        Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                                        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                                        ****************************************************************************

                                        To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                                        saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                                        Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                        ****************************************************************************

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Elizabeth Olsson
                                        The deportees were never charged with crimes. Monastyriok was a specposiolek According to Alexander Gur yanov (Polish Committee of the Memorial Society in
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                                        View Source
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The deportees were never charged with crimes.
                                          Monastyriok was a "specposiolek"

                                          According to Alexander Gur'yanov (Polish Committee of the "Memorial" Society
                                          in Moscow)
                                          "Wedlug urzedowej terminologii nie byl to obóz pracy, lecz "osiedle
                                          specjalne". Róznica polegala na tym, ze "poprawcze obozy pracy" przeznaczone
                                          byly dla osób skazanych na pozbawienie wolnosci, natomiast "specposiolki" -
                                          dla zeslanców, osób bez wyroku sadowego, wobec których zastosowano inny
                                          rodzaj represji - mianowicie ograniczenie wolnosci."

                                          According to the official terminology, these were not labour camps, but
                                          special settlements. The difference is based on the fact that "corrective
                                          labour camps" [also called GULAGs] were reserved for people sentenced to
                                          loss of liberty, while "specialposiolki" [special settlements] were for
                                          deportees, people without a court hearing, for whom was arranged a different
                                          kind of repression - namely restriction of liberty.

                                          Those who are interested in reading my Mum's diary can find it here:
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/files/Personal_testimonies/Danut
                                          a%27s%20Diary/
                                          or
                                          http://www.kresy.co.uk/memories.html

                                          photos of the people involved:
                                          http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/Elzunia-Olsson?&page=2

                                          pozdrowienia
                                          Elzunia Olsson
                                          Sweden



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On
                                          Behalf Of Lloydeen Glowacki
                                          Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:31 PM
                                          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Question for the group

                                          Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I'm trying to figure out
                                          what determined
                                          the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed a
                                          forest near
                                          Luboml. That means, I guess, that he worked for the Polish government. As I
                                          understand
                                          it, when the deportees were taken from their homes, they were "charged" with
                                          some kind
                                          of "crime" for which they were being arrested. My husband doesn't remember
                                          his father
                                          ever saying what he was "charged" with. (I've read in one book that
                                          foresters were taken in
                                          the first roundup because the Russians were afraid that people would try to
                                          escape
                                          through the forests.) At any rate, the whole family was taken to the train
                                          station at Luck.
                                          Now...were people split up and taken to different camps from various cattle
                                          cars, or did
                                          everyone from one car go to the same camp? Were some camps made up of only
                                          foresters?
                                          I assume foresters were used to fell trees because that was the most
                                          demeaning work
                                          someone who had managed a forest could be forced to do?

                                          My husband's family stayed together. His father told him the story of how
                                          his axe broke,
                                          and their rations were cut severely to "pay" for the broken axe.

                                          I'll try to get a copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon". Thanks for the
                                          reference.
                                          Again, thanks to all for telling us what you remember.

                                          Terry Glowacki
                                          Palos Verdes, California






                                          ****************************************************************************
                                          KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                                          "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                                          deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                                          ****************************************************************************
                                          Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                                          Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                                          Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                                          Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                                          ****************************************************************************
                                          To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                                          saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                                          Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                          ****************************************************************************
                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        • Chris@Gniewosz.com
                                          I was unaware of the book list by Paul Havers (http://www.kresy.co.uk/kresy_books.html). It seems that there are more books the group has written, or
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                                          View Source
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I was unaware of the book list by Paul Havers
                                            (http://www.kresy.co.uk/kresy_books.html). It seems that there are more
                                            books the group has written, or recommends, than Paul lists. Can we have a
                                            link on the bottom of the group email to a book list? How do I list my book?
                                            Chris Gniewosz
                                          • Barbara
                                            Hi Chris, If you send me the information about your book, I can put it forward for posting on the afo website. I do try to keep the pages up to date but if any
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 25, 2005
                                            View Source
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi Chris,
                                              If you send me the information about your book, I can put it forward for posting on the afo website.
                                              I do try to keep the pages up to date but if any members know of books that are not listed on our site and should be, please email title, author, publisher, ISBN number, availability and a short description or review to me.
                                               
                                              Thanks
                                              Barbara Kwietniowski
                                              Ontario, Canada
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Chris@...
                                              Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:34 PM
                                              Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Book list

                                              I was unaware of the book list by Paul Havers
                                              (http://www.kresy.co.uk/kresy_books.html). It seems that there are more
                                              books the group has written, or recommends, than Paul lists. Can we have a
                                              link on the bottom of the group email to a book list? How do I list my book?
                                              Chris Gniewosz




                                            • Chris@Gniewosz.com
                                              Barbara, Thanks for your email and offer to post my book. Here is the information: NOBLE YOUTH: Adventures of Fourteen Siblings Growing Up on a Polish Estate
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 26, 2005
                                              View Source
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Barbara,
                                                Thanks for your email and offer to post my book. Here is the information:
                                                 
                                                NOBLE YOUTH: Adventures of Fourteen Siblings Growing Up on a Polish Estate 1919-1939
                                                Gniewosz, Teresa Bisping with Christopher Gniewosz
                                                CHRISCO Trading--Publication Division, PO Box 25190 Portland, OR 97298 USA
                                                ISBN 0-9711628-6-7
                                                availability from the publisher  www.nobleyouth.com publisher@...
                                                 
                                                A warm and loving remembrance of a time and place far different from the modern experience, during a time of hope, peace, and prosperity between the two World Wars. Details of everyday life, full of mischief, anecdotes, sorrows and celebrations, on the landed estate Massalany. Along the way, we get to meet and live with an extraordinary noble family as it interacts with many visitors, skilled workers, teamsters, foresters, distillers, dairymen, gardeners, clergy, military men and field hand that all come together to form a collage of rich human interaction. 
                                                 
                                                Thanks again,
                                                Chris Gniewosz
                                                 
                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Barbara
                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:20 PM
                                                To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Book list

                                                Hi Chris,
                                                If you send me the information about your book, I can put it forward for posting on the afo website.
                                                I do try to keep the pages up to date but if any members know of books that are not listed on our site and should be, please email title, author, publisher, ISBN number, availability and a short description or review to me.
                                                 
                                                Thanks
                                                Barbara Kwietniowski
                                                Ontario, Canada
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Chris@...
                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:34 PM
                                                Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Book list

                                                I was unaware of the book list by Paul Havers
                                                (http://www.kresy.co.uk/kresy_books.html). It seems that there are more
                                                books the group has written, or recommends, than Paul lists. Can we have a
                                                link on the bottom of the group email to a book list? How do I list my book?
                                                Chris Gniewosz




                                              • Walter Orlowski
                                                Elzunia: You are indeed very resourceful. Indeed, Mr. Gur yanov s official distinction between a gulag (lagier) and a “free exile” (”free settlement”,
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 26, 2005
                                                View Source
                                                • 0 Attachment

                                                   

                                                  Elzunia:

                                                  You are indeed very resourceful.  

                                                  Indeed, Mr. Gur'yanov's official distinction between a gulag (lagier) and a “free exile” (”free settlement”, posiolek)is consistent with description given in the “Dark Side of the Moon”. But words have a funny effect on ones mind. Recently, a Russian prosecutor representing Putin, insisted that we (the deportees) were not forcibly removed from Poland but in fact freely went to our exile in Soviet Union to escape the Nazis, and should be thankful for it. This is a good example of ‘general semantics’ at work, meaning that words guide the thinking rather than the reverse.

                                                   

                                                  In reality, for most Polish prisoners (deportees) the distinction was a semantic one. Allow me to tell the story of the posiolek in which my family was confined, called Szenczuga (a Polish phonetic spelling). It was told to me many times over by my parents. The camp was built in the early 1930s by Ukranian prisoners from Eastern Ukraine who were deported and dumped in the middle of winter in a forest without any shelter or food. Out of 10,000 prisoners only about 1,000 survived the first year. When we were brought there, there were four camps, one of which was a gulag reserved for former soldiers in the NKVD or the Red Army. The other three were “free settlements” or posioleks. Our camp consisted of several dozen log cabins surrounded by barbed wire and guarded by soldiers with dogs. I guess the commissars wanted to make sure we remained free. We shared a two room cabin with a Russian woman with three children. There were four of us in one room, my parents, my 5 year old sister and me(2.5 years old).

                                                   

                                                  From the very beginning we were repeatedly told that we would not never leave this place alive. The men and women were also told that if they do not work they will die like dogs. Although, they were paid, they could only buy rations commensurate with the type of work they did. Money had little value to us or the Russians in villages outside the camp. Early in the morning men would assemble in the yard and then they were marched to the logging camps about 5 to 10 kilometers away. Late in the evening, the men would straggle back in small groups or individually. Women would usually go out to meet them half way since almost all suffered from night blindness and were exhausted.  

                                                   

                                                  One day as the men assembled in the yard in the early morning, they saw a Polish man hanging by his neck. The NKVD commandant stated that this is what will happen if anyone who tries to escape from the camp. It is unlikely that he tried to escape. The man had no family and was probably picked for that reason to be used as an example of what would happen if one tries to escape. He was probably executed to teach the rest of the prisoners a lesson. Edward Buca in his book “Vorkuta” (a must read if one wants to learn about life in Soviet prisons) describes a similar practice, where common criminals would kill other prisoners on orders from their jailers. In our camp the NKVD did their own dirty work.

                                                   

                                                  What I am trying to say is that for most Polish prisoners it did not matter how the camp was labeled. It was basically a forced labor camp where whole families were kept. Children would not be allowed in a lagier and maybe that is the reason for calling these camps posioleks or free settlements. 

                                                   

                                                  Walter Orlowski

                                                  Teaneck, NJ



                                                  Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...> wrote:
                                                  The deportees were never charged with crimes.
                                                  Monastyriok was a  "specposiolek"

                                                  According to Alexander Gur'yanov (Polish Committee of the "Memorial" Society
                                                  in Moscow)
                                                  "Wedlug urzedowej terminologii nie byl to obóz pracy, lecz "osiedle
                                                  specjalne". Róznica polegala na tym, ze "poprawcze obozy pracy" przeznaczone
                                                  byly dla osób skazanych na pozbawienie wolnosci, natomiast "specposiolki" -
                                                  dla zeslanców, osób bez wyroku sadowego, wobec których zastosowano inny
                                                  rodzaj represji - mianowicie ograniczenie wolnosci."

                                                  According to the official terminology, these were not labour camps, but
                                                  special settlements. The difference is based on the fact that "corrective
                                                  labour camps" [also called GULAGs] were reserved for people sentenced to
                                                  loss of liberty, while "specialposiolki" [special settlements] were for
                                                  deportees, people without a court hearing, for whom was arranged a different
                                                  kind of repression - namely restriction of liberty.

                                                  Those who are interested in reading my Mum's diary can find it here:
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/files/Personal_testimonies/Danut
                                                  a%27s%20Diary/
                                                  or
                                                  http://www.kresy.co.uk/memories.html

                                                  photos of the people involved:
                                                  http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/Elzunia-Olsson?&page=2

                                                  pozdrowienia
                                                  Elzunia Olsson
                                                  Sweden



                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                  Behalf Of Lloydeen Glowacki
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:31 PM
                                                  To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Question for the group

                                                  Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I'm trying to figure out
                                                  what determined
                                                  the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed a
                                                  forest near
                                                  Luboml. That means, I guess, that he worked for the Polish government. As I
                                                  understand
                                                  it, when the deportees were taken from their homes, they were "charged" with
                                                  some kind
                                                  of "crime" for which they were being arrested. My husband doesn't remember
                                                  his father
                                                  ever saying what he was "charged" with. (I've read in one book that
                                                  foresters were taken in
                                                  the first roundup because the Russians were afraid that people would try to
                                                  escape
                                                  through the forests.) At any rate, the whole family was taken to the train
                                                  station at Luck.
                                                  Now...were people split up and taken to different camps from various cattle
                                                  cars, or did
                                                  everyone from one car go to the same camp? Were some camps made up of only
                                                  foresters?
                                                  I assume foresters were used to fell trees because that was the most
                                                  demeaning work
                                                  someone who had managed a forest could be forced to do?

                                                  My husband's family stayed together. His father told him the story of how
                                                  his axe broke,
                                                  and their rations were cut severely to "pay" for the broken axe.

                                                  I'll try to get a copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon". Thanks for the
                                                  reference.
                                                  Again, thanks to all for telling us what you remember.

                                                  Terry Glowacki
                                                  Palos Verdes, California






                                                  ****************************************************************************
                                                  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                                                  "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                                                  deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                                                  ****************************************************************************
                                                  Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                                                  Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                                                  Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                                                  Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                                                  ****************************************************************************
                                                  To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                                                  saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                                                  Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                                  ****************************************************************************
                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links










                                                  Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
                                                • Anne Kaczanowski
                                                  For me it definitely mattered how the camp was labeled. When I was doing my research I wasn t sure where my father was since I started hearing the word
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Oct 26, 2005
                                                  View Source
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    For me it definitely mattered how the camp was  labeled. When I was doing my research I wasn't sure where my father was since I started hearing the word posiolek from group members and I didn't know when captured whether my dad  was a soldier or a civilian . I knew my dad was imprisoned and posiolek didn't fit the picture. I also knew that at one time my dad was moved with 8000 men and in my mind that couldn't have been a posiolek.   When I finally got his records from Moscow it refers to him as civilian and  after 6 months in Soviet prison at Kherson on July, 30th 1940 year/ under article of low 16-80 of Criminal Code Ukraine SSR sent for five years to corrective-labour camps /name of camp not called/. Data on serving punishment and its subsequent destiny in archival criminal case are absent.

                                                    corrective-labour camps /name of camp not called/. Data on serving punishment and its subsequent destiny in archival criminal case are absent.  Of course they are absent....what's else is new? 

                                                    I  only mention this because someone searching for the first time might remember a word used in the past that could trigger off an idea for a search...and sometimes the smallest thing opens up a new door. A word like posiolek will at least inform the searcher that the one in question was not in a "corrective prison camp".

                                                     

                                                    hania



                                                    Walter Orlowski <walter_orlowski@...> wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Elzunia:

                                                    You are indeed very resourceful.  

                                                    Indeed, Mr. Gur'yanov's official distinction between a gulag (lagier) and a “free exile” (”free settlement”, posiolek)is consistent with description given in the “Dark Side of the Moon”. But words have a funny effect on ones mind. Recently, a Russian prosecutor representing Putin, insisted that we (the deportees) were not forcibly removed from Poland but in fact freely went to our exile in Soviet Union to escape the Nazis, and should be thankful for it. This is a good example of ‘general semantics’ at work, meaning that words guide the thinking rather than the reverse.

                                                     

                                                    In reality, for most Polish prisoners (deportees) the distinction was a semantic one. Allow me to tell the story of the posiolek in which my family was confined, called Szenczuga (a Polish phonetic spelling). It was told to me many times over by my parents. The camp was built in the early 1930s by Ukranian prisoners from Eastern Ukraine who were deported and dumped in the middle of winter in a forest without any shelter or food. Out of 10,000 prisoners only about 1,000 survived the first year. When we were brought there, there were four camps, one of which was a gulag reserved for former soldiers in the NKVD or the Red Army. The other three were “free settlements” or posioleks. Our camp consisted of several dozen log cabins surrounded by barbed wire and guarded by soldiers with dogs. I guess the commissars wanted to make sure we remained free. We shared a two room cabin with a Russian woman with three children. There were four of us in one room, my parents, my 5 year old sister and me(2.5 years old).

                                                     

                                                    From the very beginning we were repeatedly told that we would not never leave this place alive. The men and women were also told that if they do not work they will die like dogs. Although, they were paid, they could only buy rations commensurate with the type of work they did. Money had little value to us or the Russians in villages outside the camp. Early in the morning men would assemble in the yard and then they were marched to the logging camps about 5 to 10 kilometers away. Late in the evening, the men would straggle back in small groups or individually. Women would usually go out to meet them half way since almost all suffered from night blindness and were exhausted.  

                                                     

                                                    One day as the men assembled in the yard in the early morning, they saw a Polish man hanging by his neck. The NKVD commandant stated that this is what will happen if anyone who tries to escape from the camp. It is unlikely that he tried to escape. The man had no family and was probably picked for that reason to be used as an example of what would happen if one tries to escape. He was probably executed to teach the rest of the prisoners a lesson. Edward Buca in his book “Vorkuta” (a must read if one wants to learn about life in Soviet prisons) describes a similar practice, where common criminals would kill other prisoners on orders from their jailers. In our camp the NKVD did their own dirty work.

                                                     

                                                    What I am trying to say is that for most Polish prisoners it did not matter how the camp was labeled. It was basically a forced labor camp where whole families were kept. Children would not be allowed in a lagier and maybe that is the reason for calling these camps posioleks or free settlements. 

                                                     

                                                    Walter Orlowski

                                                    Teaneck, NJ



                                                    Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...> wrote:
                                                    The deportees were never charged with crimes.
                                                    Monastyriok was a  "specposiolek"

                                                    According to Alexander Gur'yanov (Polish Committee of the "Memorial" Society
                                                    in Moscow)
                                                    "Wedlug urzedowej terminologii nie byl to obóz pracy, lecz "osiedle
                                                    specjalne". Róznica polegala na tym, ze "poprawcze obozy pracy" przeznaczone
                                                    byly dla osób skazanych na pozbawienie wolnosci, natomiast "specposiolki" -
                                                    dla zeslanców, osób bez wyroku sadowego, wobec których zastosowano inny
                                                    rodzaj represji - mianowicie ograniczenie wolnosci."

                                                    According to the official terminology, these were not labour camps, but
                                                    special settlements. The difference is based on the fact that "corrective
                                                    labour camps" [also called GULAGs] were reserved for people sentenced to
                                                    loss of liberty, while "specialposiolki" [special settlements] were for
                                                    deportees, people without a court hearing, for whom was arranged a different
                                                    kind of repression - namely restriction of liberty.

                                                    Those who are interested in reading my Mum's diary can find it here:
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/files/Personal_testimonies/Danut
                                                    a%27s%20Diary/
                                                    or
                                                    http://www.kresy.co.uk/memories.html

                                                    photos of the people involved:
                                                    http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/Elzunia-Olsson?&page=2

                                                    pozdrowienia
                                                    Elzunia Olsson
                                                    Sweden



                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                    Behalf Of Lloydeen Glowacki
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:31 PM
                                                    To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Question for the group

                                                    Thank you to all who are addressing my question. I'm trying to figure out
                                                    what determined
                                                    the kind of camp the deportees were sent to. My father-in-law managed a
                                                    forest near
                                                    Luboml. That means, I guess, that he worked for the Polish government. As I
                                                    understand
                                                    it, when the deportees were taken from their homes, they were "charged" with
                                                    some kind
                                                    of "crime" for which they were being arrested. My husband doesn't remember
                                                    his father
                                                    ever saying what he was "charged" with. (I've read in one book that
                                                    foresters were taken in
                                                    the first roundup because the Russians were afraid that people would try to
                                                    escape
                                                    through the forests.) At any rate, the whole family was taken to the train
                                                    station at Luck.
                                                    Now...were people split up and taken to different camps from various cattle
                                                    cars, or did
                                                    everyone from one car go to the same camp? Were some camps made up of only
                                                    foresters?
                                                    I assume foresters were used to fell trees because that was the most
                                                    demeaning work
                                                    someone who had managed a forest could be forced to do?

                                                    My husband's family stayed together. His father told him the story of how
                                                    his axe broke,
                                                    and their rations were cut severely to "pay" for the broken axe.

                                                    I'll try to get a copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon". Thanks for the
                                                    reference.
                                                    Again, thanks to all for telling us what you remember.

                                                    Terry Glowacki
                                                    Palos Verdes, California






                                                    ****************************************************************************
                                                    KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                                                    "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                                                    deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                                                    ****************************************************************************
                                                    Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                                                    Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                                                    Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                                                    Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                                                    ****************************************************************************
                                                    To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                                                    saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                                                    Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                                    ****************************************************************************
                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links










                                                    Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.


                                                    Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
                                                  • Stefan Wisniowski
                                                    Chris The address Booklist : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/books.html now appears at the bottom of every e-mail. Thanks for the suggestion! -- Stefan
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Nov 1, 2005
                                                    View Source
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Book list Chris
                                                      The address Booklist : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/books.html now appears at the bottom of every e-mail.

                                                      Thanks for the suggestion!

                                                      --
                                                      Stefan Wisniowski
                                                      Group moderator
                                                      Sydney, Australia


                                                      KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
                                                      “Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                                                      deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two.”

                                                      Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
                                                      Gallery (photos, documents): http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery
                                                      Booklist : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/books.html
                                                      Film and info: http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com

                                                      To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                                                      Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


                                                      > .... Can we have a link on the bottom of the group email to a book list? ...
                                                      > Chris Gniewosz
                                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.