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Re: Guzar - Krasnovodsk - Pahlevi - 1942

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  • antoni530
    ... Hello Linda, Re Lugowaja;;; The place or the camp forming a gathering point is just west of ALMA ATA and north of Dzalal-Abad; also not far from Tashkient
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 1, 2005
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      --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, l willis <lwil22000@y...>
      wrote:
      > Hello Roman,
      >
      > .
      > Do you have any recollection of a place called Lugovoj
      > which was some kind of gathering place for Poles
      > leaving Russia and going to Persia.
      Hello Linda,

      Re Lugowaja;;;

      The place or the camp forming a gathering point is just west of ALMA
      ATA and north of Dzalal-Abad; also not far from Tashkient or
      Turkestan. There was a Polish hospital and a camp of Batalion drogowy
      and dywizii Piechoty.
      antoni530
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • l willis
      Hello Halina and everyone else who replied to my query! I did not realize Lugovoy(?) was near/in Kazakhstan. Halina, this is a question for you: when did your
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 1, 2005
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        Hello Halina and everyone else who replied to my
        query!

        I did not realize Lugovoy(?) was near/in Kazakhstan.

        Halina, this is a question for you: when did your
        uncles pass through Lugovoj and enlist in the army, or
        do you know the dates? I am looking for anyone who
        would have passed through there in March 1942. My
        information is that the person I am researching came
        from Khrasnoyarsk, to Novosibirsk, and then to
        Lugovoj, arriving on 25 March 1942. He was inducted
        into the Polish army the next day on 26 March 1942.
        (Were your uncles coming from a labor camp by any
        chance?)

        Also, could someone explain to me why certain Polish
        prisoners were given amnesty and were allowed to join
        Gen. Ander's army and leave Russia while others were
        not. I don't think I have read a good explanation of
        who was amnestied and who was not - and why.

        Many thanks to all of you for your help. Halina, I
        hope to hear from you in due course. Sincerely, Linda



        --- Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:

        > Dear Linda,
        >
        > My family went through Lugovoj because there was a
        > Polska Placowka near to
        > the railway station. Two of my uncles enlisted in
        > the army there and my
        > mother + her younger brother spent a month in the
        > local hospital suffering
        > with Tyfus Plamisty. It's about 150km west of Almata
        > in Kazakhstan.
        >
        > Pozdrowienia,
        > Halina UK
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of l
        > willis
        > Sent: 01 June 2005 16:07
        > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Guzar - Krasnovodsk -
        > Pahlevi - 1942
        >
        >
        > Hello Roman,
        >
        > I am re-reading some of the earlier comments about
        > Anders Army and about the trip from Russia to
        > Persia.
        > Do you have any recollection of a place called
        > Lugovoj
        > which was some kind of gathering place for Poles
        > leaving Russia and going to Persia. I came across
        > amnesty documents that list Khrasnoyarsk and then
        > Novosibirsk and Lugovoj. Do you know of anyone who
        > was at Lugovoj? Thanks for your help. Linda
        >
        > --- romed46 <romed46@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > According to my diary we left Guzar on Wednesday
        > > morning, 13th
        > > August,
        > > 1942. The train journey took two days and two
        > > nights, and on the
        > > morning of August 15th we arrived in Krasnovodsk.
        > > The transit camp
        > > was
        > > located some 5 miles outside the town of
        > > Krasnovodsk.On August
        > > 18th,1942 we boarded the train that took us to the
        > > port of
        > > Krasnovodsk
        > > where we boarded Soviet ship " KAGANOVYCZ". We
        > left
        > > port of
        > > Krasnovodsk within two hours and arrived in
        > Pahlevi
        > > in the morning of
        > > August 19th, 1942.
        > > I should add that in the transit camp we were
        > given
        > > one canteen of
        > > water per day. The temperatures were around
        > > 100F.Local people,
        > > outside
        > > the fence, asked for a golg wedding ring for a
        > litre
        > > of water.On the
        > > ship Kaganovicz there were no toilet facilities.
        > > Playwood boards
        > > 4'X8'
        > > were fixed to the railings of the deck and people
        > > had to climb behind
        > > it
        > > and holding the rail to relieve
        > himselves/herselves
        > > directly into the
        > > sea.It was not a very pleasant journey.
        > >
        > > Roman Skulski
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > "Dedicated to researching, remembering and
        > recognising the Polish citizens
        > deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union
        > during World War Two."
        >
        ****************************************************************************
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        > Virtual Memorial Wall :
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        >
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      • romed46
        -Hello Linda, No, I do not recollect place called Lugovoj. I do not know anyone who was in Lugovoj. Roman
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 1, 2005
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          -Hello Linda,

          No, I do not recollect place called Lugovoj. I do not know anyone who
          was in Lugovoj.

          Roman


          -- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, l willis <lwil22000@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Roman,
          >
          > I am re-reading some of the earlier comments about
          > Anders Army and about the trip from Russia to Persia.
          > Do you have any recollection of a place called Lugovoj
          > which was some kind of gathering place for Poles
          > leaving Russia and going to Persia. I came across
          > amnesty documents that list Khrasnoyarsk and then
          > Novosibirsk and Lugovoj. Do you know of anyone who
          > was at Lugovoj? Thanks for your help. Linda
          >
          > --- romed46 <romed46@y...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > According to my diary we left Guzar on Wednesday
          > > morning, 13th
          > > August,
          > > 1942. The train journey took two days and two
          > > nights, and on the
          > > morning of August 15th we arrived in Krasnovodsk.
          > > The transit camp
          > > was
          > > located some 5 miles outside the town of
          > > Krasnovodsk.On August
          > > 18th,1942 we boarded the train that took us to the
          > > port of
          > > Krasnovodsk
          > > where we boarded Soviet ship " KAGANOVYCZ". We left
          > > port of
          > > Krasnovodsk within two hours and arrived in Pahlevi
          > > in the morning of
          > > August 19th, 1942.
          > > I should add that in the transit camp we were given
          > > one canteen of
          > > water per day. The temperatures were around
          > > 100F.Local people,
          > > outside
          > > the fence, asked for a golg wedding ring for a litre
          > > of water.On the
          > > ship Kaganovicz there were no toilet facilities.
          > > Playwood boards
          > > 4'X8'
          > > were fixed to the railings of the deck and people
          > > had to climb behind
          > > it
          > > and holding the rail to relieve himselves/herselves
          > > directly into the
          > > sea.It was not a very pleasant journey.
          > >
          > > Roman Skulski
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
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        • Halina Szulakowska
          Dear Linda, I ll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All Polish Citizens that were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However, not all of them
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 2, 2005
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            Dear Linda,

            I'll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All Polish Citizens that
            were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However, not all of them were
            informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants because they were a
            cheap and badly needed labour force. it was a 'begrudging' amnesty that was
            granted.

            My family on my mother's side were deported to a camp called Kurochka, about
            100km south of Novosibirsk, from the Podole in Feb 1940. They were told of
            the Amnesty in Sept 1941 and set off by train south to Kazakhstan. When they
            ran out of money, they found work on a Kolhoz near Aktobe (about 50km north
            east of Chu).

            In late Jan 1942 the two oldest sons from the family left the Kolhoz and
            caught a train for Logovoj. Here, they enlisted at the beginning of
            February.

            On the 1st March a transport left Lugovoj with my uncles bound for
            Krasnovodsk. The rest of the family had permits to catch this train and be
            evacuated. However, they were late arriving in Lugovoj. They arrived just as
            the army train was ready to pull away. My mother remembers hearing the
            soldiers on board singing the hymn 'Serdeczna Matka'. If my grandfather
            hadn't gone to report to the Polska Placowka first, my mother believes they
            would have caught the transport.

            Instead, they got left behind with other Polish civilians, who set up a
            shanty town around the Placowka. That's when my mother and another uncle
            caught Tyfus - from the rats and lack of sanitation. The children were then
            taken to the local civilian hospital in Lugovoj and given exactly four weeks
            to recover and then leave.

            Since another transport wasn't being planned immediately, the Placowka
            started finding work for the Polish Citizens in kolhoz farms nearby. My
            family were assigned to one at Konzavod (25km away from Lugovoj).

            Not until August that same year did a second transport out of Lugovoj
            arrive. The family, along with the other Poles at the Placowka, were told by
            the Commandant that they would not be allowed to leave... So the Poles, en
            masse, packed up and walked out. They left Kazakhstan on 15th August - the
            Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin - and everybody sang Marian hymns as
            the train pulled away.

            Why there was a delay between the two evacuations of the Polish Citizens
            from the USSR is unknown to me. I've asked this question of the KSgroup
            before. I know, from what I've read, that the British Army and the
            US/British Red Cross at Pahlavi were shocked by the state of the first Poles
            arriving in Iran. They also weren't prepared for the number of civilians and
            orphaned children arriving. Maybe they, therefore, needed time to reorganise
            their relief aid program before more could be taken out of the USSR.

            I have reconstructed a map of the Kazak area mentioned above, and can post
            this to you privately if you would like.

            Pozdrowienia,
            Halina




            CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
            This email and any attachments are for the exclusive and confidential use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute or take action in reliance upon this message. If you have received this in error, please notify us immediately by return email and promptly delete this message and its attachments from your computer system.
          • Lech Lesiak
            ... I ll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All Polish Citizens that were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However, not all of them were
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 2, 2005
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              --- Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:

              I'll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All
              Polish Citizens that
              were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However,
              not all of them were
              informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants
              because they were a
              cheap and badly needed labour force. it was a
              'begrudging' amnesty that was
              granted.
              End quote

              And even if they were told about and given their
              release papers, very often they were not given
              transportation vouchers. So they had to find their
              own way to Anders from wherever they happened to be.
              Some never made it.

              Soviet authorities didn't make it easy for the Poles
              to leave. There was nothing in it for them.

              Cheers,
              Lech


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            • l willis
              Hello Halina, Thank you again for all your information. I, too, wonder why there was no train from Lugovoj between 1 March and August 1942? As you and other
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 2, 2005
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                Hello Halina,

                Thank you again for all your information. I, too,
                wonder why there was no train from Lugovoj between 1
                March and August 1942? As you and other group members
                have just mentioned, many people got left behind.
                It's amazing in the first place that Gen. Anders was
                able to get the Soviets to provide even one amnesty
                and travel permit, let alone thousands.

                Again, many thanks for your help. Linda

                --- Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:

                > Dear Linda,
                >
                > My family went through Lugovoj because there was a
                > Polska Placowka near to
                > the railway station. Two of my uncles enlisted in
                > the army there and my
                > mother + her younger brother spent a month in the
                > local hospital suffering
                > with Tyfus Plamisty. It's about 150km west of Almata
                > in Kazakhstan.
                >
                > Pozdrowienia,
                > Halina UK
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of l
                > willis
                > Sent: 01 June 2005 16:07
                > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Guzar - Krasnovodsk -
                > Pahlevi - 1942
                >
                >
                > Hello Roman,
                >
                > I am re-reading some of the earlier comments about
                > Anders Army and about the trip from Russia to
                > Persia.
                > Do you have any recollection of a place called
                > Lugovoj
                > which was some kind of gathering place for Poles
                > leaving Russia and going to Persia. I came across
                > amnesty documents that list Khrasnoyarsk and then
                > Novosibirsk and Lugovoj. Do you know of anyone who
                > was at Lugovoj? Thanks for your help. Linda
                >
                > --- romed46 <romed46@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > According to my diary we left Guzar on Wednesday
                > > morning, 13th
                > > August,
                > > 1942. The train journey took two days and two
                > > nights, and on the
                > > morning of August 15th we arrived in Krasnovodsk.
                > > The transit camp
                > > was
                > > located some 5 miles outside the town of
                > > Krasnovodsk.On August
                > > 18th,1942 we boarded the train that took us to the
                > > port of
                > > Krasnovodsk
                > > where we boarded Soviet ship " KAGANOVYCZ". We
                > left
                > > port of
                > > Krasnovodsk within two hours and arrived in
                > Pahlevi
                > > in the morning of
                > > August 19th, 1942.
                > > I should add that in the transit camp we were
                > given
                > > one canteen of
                > > water per day. The temperatures were around
                > > 100F.Local people,
                > > outside
                > > the fence, asked for a golg wedding ring for a
                > litre
                > > of water.On the
                > > ship Kaganovicz there were no toilet facilities.
                > > Playwood boards
                > > 4'X8'
                > > were fixed to the railings of the deck and people
                > > had to climb behind
                > > it
                > > and holding the rail to relieve
                > himselves/herselves
                > > directly into the
                > > sea.It was not a very pleasant journey.
                > >
                > > Roman Skulski
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ****************************************************************************
                > KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE
                > RECOGNITION
                > "Dedicated to researching, remembering and
                > recognising the Polish citizens
                > deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union
                > during World War Two."
                >
                ****************************************************************************
                > Discussion site
                > : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                > Virtual Memorial Wall :
                > http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                > Gallery (photos, documents) :
                > http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                > Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                >
                ****************************************************************************
                > To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an
                > e-mail
                > saying who you are and describing your interest in
                > the group to:
                > Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                ****************************************************************************
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                >
                >
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                > This email and any attachments are for the exclusive
                > and confidential use of the intended recipient. If
                > you are not the intended recipient, please do not
                > read, distribute or take action in reliance upon
                > this message. If you have received this in error,
                > please notify us immediately by return email and
                > promptly delete this message and its attachments
                > from your computer system.
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              • Dave Lichtenstein
                Hello Halina From your message below you seem to have some expertise on movements of exiled Poles from Novosibirsk to Persia. Limited information that I have
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 2, 2005
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                  Hello Halina

                  From your message below you seem to have some expertise on movements of exiled Poles from Novosibirsk to Persia.   Limited information that I have from my late mother suggested that after Novosibirsk she ended up in Karaganda. (Viewing a current affairs snippet on contemporary Russian reaction to Stalin earlier this week, I heard the name Karaganda mentioned in reference to exiled Russians sent there as a Gulag work camp).  From there she was sent to camps to Kirghistan and Uzbekistan.  Apparently in the latter she was picking cotton.  After Tashkent she went to Buzuluk where she joined the Polish army and ended up in Tehran in 1942 having travelled via the Caspian sea.

                  So I have three questions to pose to your good self and others:

                  1. Why these journeys and why in that order
                  2. Do your maps show any of these journeys
                  3. Anyone else roughly followed the routes that my mother took to Persia during that time

                  Many thanks

                  Dave Lichtenstein

                  Sydney, Australia


                  Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:
                  Dear Linda,

                  I'll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All Polish Citizens that
                  were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However, not all of them were
                  informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants because they were a
                  cheap and badly needed labour force. it was a 'begrudging' amnesty that was
                  granted.

                  My family on my mother's side were deported to a camp called Kurochka, about
                  100km south of Novosibirsk, from the Podole in Feb 1940. They were told of
                  the Amnesty in Sept 1941 and set off by train south to Kazakhstan. When they
                  ran out of money, they found work on a Kolhoz near Aktobe (about 50km north
                  east of Chu).

                  In late Jan 1942 the two oldest sons from the family left the Kolhoz and
                  caught a train for Logovoj. Here, they enlisted at the beginning of
                  February.

                  On the 1st March a transport left Lugovoj with my uncles bound for
                  Krasnovodsk. The rest of the family had permits to catch this train and be
                  evacuated. However, they were late arriving in Lugovoj. They arrived just as
                  the army train was ready to pull away. My mother remembers hearing the
                  soldiers on board singing the hymn 'Serdeczna Matka'. If my grandfather
                  hadn't gone to report to the Polska Placowka first, my mother believes they
                  would have caught the transport.

                  Instead, they got left behind with other Polish civilians, who set up a
                  shanty town around the Placowka. That's when my mother and another uncle
                  caught Tyfus - from the rats and lack of sanitation. The children were then
                  taken to the local civilian hospital in Lugovoj and given exactly four weeks
                  to recover and then leave.

                  Since another transport wasn't being planned immediately, the Placowka
                  started finding work for the Polish Citizens in kolhoz farms nearby. My
                  family were assigned to one at Konzavod (25km away from Lugovoj).

                  Not until August that same year did a second transport out of Lugovoj
                  arrive. The family, along with the other Poles at the Placowka, were told by
                  the Commandant that they would not be allowed to leave... So the Poles, en
                  masse, packed up and walked out. They left Kazakhstan on 15th August - the
                  Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin - and everybody sang Marian hymns as
                  the train pulled away.

                  Why there was a delay between the two evacuations of the Polish Citizens
                  from the USSR is unknown to me. I've asked this question of the KSgroup
                  before. I know, from what I've read, that the British Army and the
                  US/British Red Cross at Pahlavi were shocked by the state of the first Poles
                  arriving in Iran. They also weren't prepared for the number of civilians and
                  orphaned children arriving. Maybe they, therefore, needed time to reorganise
                  their relief aid program before more could be taken out of the USSR.

                  I have reconstructed a map of the Kazak area mentioned above, and can post
                  this to you privately if you would like.

                  Pozdrowienia,
                  Halina

                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                • Anne Kaczanowski
                  Dave, I d like to ask a question of your Mom s journey. You say she went from Taskent to Buzuluk....everyone else went the other way...from Buzuluk towards
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 2, 2005
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                    Dave,  I'd like to ask a question of your Mom's journey.  You say she went from Taskent to Buzuluk....everyone else went the other way...from Buzuluk towards  Tashkent. The original army formations started in Buzuluk in 1941, and were moved southward within months to a warmer climate finally most ending up in Tashkent area. I am just wondering if this is error or in fact did your Mom  end up traveling north which is odd.
                     
                     
                    hania

                    Dave Lichtenstein <kipkarren@...> wrote:
                    Hello Halina

                    From your message below you seem to have some expertise on movements of exiled Poles from Novosibirsk to Persia.   Limited information that I have from my late mother suggested that after Novosibirsk she ended up in Karaganda. (Viewing a current affairs snippet on contemporary Russian reaction to Stalin earlier this week, I heard the name Karaganda mentioned in reference to exiled Russians sent there as a Gulag work camp).  From there she was sent to camps to Kirghistan and Uzbekistan.  Apparently in the latter she was picking cotton.  After Tashkent she went to Buzuluk where she joined the Polish army and ended up in Tehran in 1942 having travelled via the Caspian sea.

                    So I have three questions to pose to your good self and others:

                    1. Why these journeys and why in that order
                    2. Do your maps show any of these journeys
                    3. Anyone else roughly followed the routes that my mother took to Persia during that time

                    Many thanks

                    Dave Lichtenstein

                    Sydney, Australia


                    Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:
                    Dear Linda,

                    I'll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All Polish Citizens that
                    were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However, not all of them were
                    informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants because they were a
                    cheap and badly needed labour force. it was a 'begrudging' amnesty that was
                    granted.

                    My family on my mother's side were deported to a camp called Kurochka, about
                    100km south of Novosibirsk, from the Podole in Feb 1940. They were told of
                    the Amnesty in Sept 1941 and set off by train south to Kazakhstan. When they
                    ran out of money, they found work on a Kolhoz near Aktobe (about 50km north
                    east of Chu).

                    In late Jan 1942 the two oldest sons from the family left the Kolhoz and
                    caught a train for Logovoj. Here, they enlisted at the beginning of
                    February.

                    On the 1st March a transport left Lugovoj with my uncles bound for
                    Krasnovodsk. The rest of the family had permits to catch this train and be
                    evacuated. However, they were late arriving in Lugovoj. They arrived just as
                    the army train was ready to pull away. My mother remembers hearing the
                    soldiers on board singing the hymn 'Serdeczna Matka'. If my grandfather
                    hadn't gone to report to the Polska Placowka first, my mother believes they
                    would have caught the transport.

                    Instead, they got left behind with other Polish civilians, who set up a
                    shanty town around the Placowka. That's when my mother and another uncle
                    caught Tyfus - from the rats and lack of sanitation. The children were then
                    taken to the local civilian hospital in Lugovoj and given exactly four weeks
                    to recover and then leave.

                    Since another transport wasn't being planned immediately, the Placowka
                    started finding work for the Polish Citizens in kolhoz farms nearby. My
                    family were assigned to one at Konzavod (25km away from Lugovoj).

                    Not until August that same year did a second transport out of Lugovoj
                    arrive. The family, along with the other Poles at the Placowka, were told by
                    the Commandant that they would not be allowed to leave... So the Poles, en
                    masse, packed up and walked out. They left Kazakhstan on 15th August - the
                    Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin - and everybody sang Marian hymns as
                    the train pulled away.

                    Why there was a delay between the two evacuations of the Polish Citizens
                    from the USSR is unknown to me. I've asked this question of the KSgroup
                    before. I know, from what I've read, that the British Army and the
                    US/British Red Cross at Pahlavi were shocked by the state of the first Poles
                    arriving in Iran. They also weren't prepared for the number of civilians and
                    orphaned children arriving. Maybe they, therefore, needed time to reorganise
                    their relief aid program before more could be taken out of the USSR.

                    I have reconstructed a map of the Kazak area mentioned above, and can post
                    this to you privately if you would like.

                    Pozdrowienia,
                    Halina

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                    deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
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                  • Barbara Jachowicz Davoust
                    To add to the travel programme, I just checked on the information my mother provided a few years ago, although it seems incomplete: Informed of being freed in
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                      To add to the travel programme, I just checked on the information my
                      mother provided a few years ago, although it seems incomplete:

                      Informed of being freed in August, 1941, but unable to leave until
                      October because of transportation problems. People had to build rafts
                      then went down Chulym River to Asino (north of Tomsk). Finally
                      allowed to get on a train, but my grandmother had to pay 1000 rubles
                      per person. Joined a real train (not freight) in Omsk then to
                      Novosibirsk, Barnaul, Semipalatinsk, Alma Ata, Frunze, Tashkent, Osh.
                      Then it seems to be fairly incomplete until they met the main body of
                      the forming army in Guzari, where my mother joined the army.

                      I will be seeing her in late August so will go through this again with
                      a map.

                      Barbara Davoust
                    • Halina Szulakowska
                      Dear Dave, I m afraid that every deportees journey and experience was different. I can t shed light on why your mother took this route. But like Anne I don t
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                        Dear Dave,
                         
                        I'm afraid that every deportees journey and experience was different. I can't shed light on why your mother took this route. But like Anne I don't understand why she would go to Tashkent first and then up to Buzuluk - this is a journey of several hundred kms. Are there dates that go with her movements?
                         
                        As for my maps... these are just for personal use and only cover the areas relating to my own family. They are not official kolhoz/gulag maps or anything of that sort. I have been working from the town names and distances travelled that my own family have given me.
                         
                        Bit of throw away info, though: Kirghistan did not exist at this time - it was then part of Kazakhstan. 
                         
                        A lot of the southern kolhozes in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan were concerned with cotton farming, or animal grazing. This is what my family did in the Lugovoj area.
                         
                        Sorry I can't be of more help.
                         
                        Pozdrowienia,
                        Halina UK
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dave Lichtenstein
                        Sent: 02 June 2005 23:54
                        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Guzar - Krasnovodsk - Pahlevi - 1942

                        Hello Halina

                        From your message below you seem to have some expertise on movements of exiled Poles from Novosibirsk to Persia.   Limited information that I have from my late mother suggested that after Novosibirsk she ended up in Karaganda. (Viewing a current affairs snippet on contemporary Russian reaction to Stalin earlier this week, I heard the name Karaganda mentioned in reference to exiled Russians sent there as a Gulag work camp).  From there she was sent to camps to Kirghistan and Uzbekistan.  Apparently in the latter she was picking cotton.  After Tashkent she went to Buzuluk where she joined the Polish army and ended up in Tehran in 1942 having travelled via the Caspian sea.

                        So I have three questions to pose to your good self and others:

                        1. Why these journeys and why in that order
                        2. Do your maps show any of these journeys
                        3. Anyone else roughly followed the routes that my mother took to Persia during that time

                        Many thanks

                        Dave Lichtenstein

                        Sydney, Australia


                        Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:
                        Dear Linda,

                        I'll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All Polish Citizens that
                        were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However, not all of them were
                        informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants because they were a
                        cheap and badly needed labour force. it was a 'begrudging' amnesty that was
                        granted.

                        My family on my mother's side were deported to a camp called Kurochka, about
                        100km south of Novosibirsk, from the Podole in Feb 1940. They were told of
                        the Amnesty in Sept 1941 and set off by train south to Kazakhstan. When they
                        ran out of money, they found work on a Kolhoz near Aktobe (about 50km north
                        east of Chu).

                        In late Jan 1942 the two oldest sons from the family left the Kolhoz and
                        caught a train for Logovoj. Here, they enlisted at the beginning of
                        February.

                        On the 1st March a transport left Lugovoj with my uncles bound for
                        Krasnovodsk. The rest of the family had permits to catch this train and be
                        evacuated. However, they were late arriving in Lugovoj. They arrived just as
                        the army train was ready to pull away. My mother remembers hearing the
                        soldiers on board singing the hymn 'Serdeczna Matka'. If my grandfather
                        hadn't gone to report to the Polska Placowka first, my mother believes they
                        would have caught the transport.

                        Instead, they got left behind with other Polish civilians, who set up a
                        shanty town around the Placowka. That's when my mother and another uncle
                        caught Tyfus - from the rats and lack of sanitation. The children were then
                        taken to the local civilian hospital in Lugovoj and given exactly four weeks
                        to recover and then leave.

                        Since another transport wasn't being planned immediately, the Placowka
                        started finding work for the Polish Citizens in kolhoz farms nearby. My
                        family were assigned to one at Konzavod (25km away from Lugovoj).

                        Not until August that same year did a second transport out of Lugovoj
                        arrive. The family, along with the other Poles at the Placowka, were told by
                        the Commandant that they would not be allowed to leave... So the Poles, en
                        masse, packed up and walked out. They left Kazakhstan on 15th August - the
                        Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin - and everybody sang Marian hymns as
                        the train pulled away.

                        Why there was a delay between the two evacuations of the Polish Citizens
                        from the USSR is unknown to me. I've asked this question of the KSgroup
                        before. I know, from what I've read, that the British Army and the
                        US/British Red Cross at Pahlavi were shocked by the state of the first Poles
                        arriving in Iran. They also weren't prepared for the number of civilians and
                        orphaned children arriving. Maybe they, therefore, needed time to reorganise
                        their relief aid program before more could be taken out of the USSR.

                        I have reconstructed a map of the Kazak area mentioned above, and can post
                        this to you privately if you would like.

                        Pozdrowienia,
                        Halina

                        Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                        ****************************************************************************
                        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                        ****************************************************************************
                        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                        Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                        Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
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                      • Halina Szulakowska
                        Dear Dave and Linda, Here are a few dates that might help with your own research: August 4th 1941 General W?adys?aw Anders is release from Lubianka prison,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                          Dear Dave and Linda,

                          Here are a few dates that might help with your own research:

                          August 4th 1941
                          General W?adys?aw Anders is release from Lubianka prison, Moscow.
                          He begins formation of 2nd Corps in Buzuluk.


                          January 15th 1942
                          Anders moves his HQ from Buzuluk to Yangi-Yaul near Tashkent (capital of
                          Uzbekistan).
                          Other army enrolment posts are set up in Kirgishstan, Kazakhstan (inc.
                          Lugovoj) and Tadzykistan. (I would assume that the Sikorski Institute in
                          London has details of all these collection points - unless there is a book
                          listing them, which I'm unaware of).


                          Between 42 March 26th - April 10th
                          33,000 military and 11,000 civilians are evacuated out of the USSR.
                          At the same time, on 1st April, all Polish units formed in the USSR fall
                          under British command.


                          August 1942
                          Second mass evacuation of Poles from USSR to Persia. While 98% of the
                          evacuation is by tanker across the Caspian (from Krasnovodsk to Pahlavi) an
                          overland evacuation of 701 soldiers and 1,936 civilians (many orphans) also
                          occurs.


                          January 16th 1943
                          Moscow informs Polish GOV-IN-EXILE that all remaining Kresy deportees will
                          be considered Soviet citizens. This puts an end to further plans for
                          evacuation.


                          I recently read that Sikorski was pushing for a third evacuation of Poles
                          from the USSR. This occured just after the Katyn war crime was uncovered.
                          Churchill was trying to pacify Sikorski (ie. shut him up) bu negotiating
                          with Stalin for one last evacuation of Poles from the USSR. It seems that
                          Sikorski was going for this plan just when, conveniently for everyone, his
                          plane crashed.

                          Pozdrowienia,
                          Halina UK




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                        • Dave Lichtenstein
                          Oops Hania - I goofed She went south from Novsibersk through through Uzbekistan, Kirgestan and Tashkent. Eventually she was among a group of Polish Nationals
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                            Oops Hania - I goofed
                             
                            She went south from Novsibersk through through Uzbekistan , Kirgestan and Tashkent .  Eventually she was among a group of Polish Nationals released at Karaganda [presumably she went north or was sent there by the Soviets].   She was then transported to Buzuluk by train before being transported to Persia by ship across the Caspian sea. 
                             
                            Does that make more sense?
                             
                            Cheers
                            Dave
                             
                            Anne Kaczanowski <annekaczanowski@...> wrote:
                            Dave,  I'd like to ask a question of your Mom's journey.  You say she went from Taskent to Buzuluk....everyone else went the other way...from Buzuluk towards  Tashkent. The original army formations started in Buzuluk in 1941, and were moved southward within months to a warmer climate finally most ending up in Tashkent area. I am just wondering if this is error or in fact did your Mom  end up traveling north which is odd.
                             
                             
                            hania

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                          • Halina Szulakowska
                            Dave, Did you know that there is a Buzuluk in Kazakhstan - different to the one in Siberia? This one I ve just found is NNW of Karaganda, and would make sense
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                              Dave,
                               
                              Did you know that there is a Buzuluk in Kazakhstan - different to the one in Siberia?
                              This one I've just found is NNW of Karaganda, and would make sense of your mother's movements.
                               
                              If you want to talk more, then maybe we could continue this discussion outside of the group, and try and make more sense of your mum's geographical movements.
                               
                              Halina UK
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dave Lichtenstein
                              Sent: 03 June 2005 10:09
                              To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Guzar - Krasnovodsk - Pahlevi - 1942

                              Oops Hania - I goofed
                               
                              She went south from Novsibersk through throughUzbekistan , Kirgestan andTashkent .  Eventually she was among a group of Polish Nationals released at Karaganda [presumably she went north or was sent there by the Soviets].   She was then transported to Buzuluk by train before being transported to Persia by ship across the Caspian sea. 
                               
                              Does that make more sense?
                               
                              Cheers
                              Dave
                               
                              Anne Kaczanowski <annekaczanowski@...> wrote:
                              Dave,  I'd like to ask a question of your Mom's journey.  You say she went from Taskent to Buzuluk....everyone else went the other way...from Buzuluk towards  Tashkent. The original army formations started in Buzuluk in 1941, and were moved southward within months to a warmer climate finally most ending up in Tashkent area. I am just wondering if this is error or in fact did your Mom  end up traveling north which is odd.
                               
                               
                              hania

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                              "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                              deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
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                            • l willis
                              Dear Halina, Thank you again for this information. I have been in touch with the Sikorski Museum and so far have not found the information I seek. But I
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                Dear Halina,

                                Thank you again for this information. I have been in
                                touch with the Sikorski Museum and so far have not
                                found the information I seek. But I recently wrote
                                another letter to Mr. Suchcitz and I will keep my
                                fingers crossed this.

                                Thank you for the time frame below. It does help to
                                sort out what happened to so many people throughout
                                1942.

                                Can I say thank you again??? Sincerely, Linda

                                --- Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:

                                > Dear Dave and Linda,
                                >
                                > Here are a few dates that might help with your own
                                > research:
                                >
                                > August 4th 1941
                                > General W?adys?aw Anders is release from Lubianka
                                > prison, Moscow.
                                > He begins formation of 2nd Corps in Buzuluk.
                                >
                                >
                                > January 15th 1942
                                > Anders moves his HQ from Buzuluk to Yangi-Yaul near
                                > Tashkent (capital of
                                > Uzbekistan).
                                > Other army enrolment posts are set up in
                                > Kirgishstan, Kazakhstan (inc.
                                > Lugovoj) and Tadzykistan. (I would assume that the
                                > Sikorski Institute in
                                > London has details of all these collection points -
                                > unless there is a book
                                > listing them, which I'm unaware of).
                                >
                                >
                                > Between 42 March 26th - April 10th
                                > 33,000 military and 11,000 civilians are evacuated
                                > out of the USSR.
                                > At the same time, on 1st April, all Polish units
                                > formed in the USSR fall
                                > under British command.
                                >
                                >
                                > August 1942
                                > Second mass evacuation of Poles from USSR to Persia.
                                > While 98% of the
                                > evacuation is by tanker across the Caspian (from
                                > Krasnovodsk to Pahlavi) an
                                > overland evacuation of 701 soldiers and 1,936
                                > civilians (many orphans) also
                                > occurs.
                                >
                                >
                                > January 16th 1943
                                > Moscow informs Polish GOV-IN-EXILE that all
                                > remaining Kresy deportees will
                                > be considered Soviet citizens. This puts an end to
                                > further plans for
                                > evacuation.
                                >
                                >
                                > I recently read that Sikorski was pushing for a
                                > third evacuation of Poles
                                > from the USSR. This occured just after the Katyn war
                                > crime was uncovered.
                                > Churchill was trying to pacify Sikorski (ie. shut
                                > him up) bu negotiating
                                > with Stalin for one last evacuation of Poles from
                                > the USSR. It seems that
                                > Sikorski was going for this plan just when,
                                > conveniently for everyone, his
                                > plane crashed.
                                >
                                > Pozdrowienia,
                                > Halina UK
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
                                > This email and any attachments are for the exclusive
                                > and confidential use of the intended recipient. If
                                > you are not the intended recipient, please do not
                                > read, distribute or take action in reliance upon
                                > this message. If you have received this in error,
                                > please notify us immediately by return email and
                                > promptly delete this message and its attachments
                                > from your computer system.
                                >
                                >




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                              • l willis
                                Hello Barbara, Just a question I had about your comments below. You say that your mother was freed in August 1941 but not able to leave until October 1941.
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                  Hello Barbara,

                                  Just a question I had about your comments below. You
                                  say that your mother was freed in August 1941 but not
                                  able to leave until October 1941. At what point did
                                  your mother learn of the Amnesty to let Poles leave
                                  the U.S.S.R. and go to Persia, or would she remember?
                                  I ask because the documents I have show a similar gap
                                  in time: from late 1941 until March 1942 (the date on
                                  the travel documents). I keep wondering if people
                                  were told of this amnesty at the time they were freed
                                  and whether they were given the amnesty/travel
                                  documents then and there or only after they reached
                                  some place like Khrasnoyarsk or Novosibirsk.

                                  If you remember, would you kindly ask your mother?
                                  Thank you. Sincerely, Linda

                                  --- Barbara Jachowicz Davoust <b.davoust@...>
                                  wrote:

                                  > To add to the travel programme, I just checked on
                                  > the information my
                                  > mother provided a few years ago, although it seems
                                  > incomplete:
                                  >
                                  > Informed of being freed in August, 1941, but unable
                                  > to leave until
                                  > October because of transportation problems. People
                                  > had to build rafts
                                  > then went down Chulym River to Asino (north of
                                  > Tomsk). Finally
                                  > allowed to get on a train, but my grandmother had to
                                  > pay 1000 rubles
                                  > per person. Joined a real train (not freight) in
                                  > Omsk then to
                                  > Novosibirsk, Barnaul, Semipalatinsk, Alma Ata,
                                  > Frunze, Tashkent, Osh.
                                  > Then it seems to be fairly incomplete until they met
                                  > the main body of
                                  > the forming army in Guzari, where my mother joined
                                  > the army.
                                  >
                                  > I will be seeing her in late August so will go
                                  > through this again with
                                  > a map.
                                  >
                                  > Barbara Davoust
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >




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                                • Barbara Jachowicz Davoust
                                  Hello Linda, To add more details from what I already have -- (I wrote this stuff down about 10 years ago, at least): My mother said they were told they were
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                    Hello Linda,
                                    To add more details from what I already have -- (I wrote this stuff
                                    down about 10 years ago, at least):
                                    My mother said they were told they were freed in August 1941 and given
                                    their papers.
                                    Despite the transportation difficulties, most of those who could
                                    wanted to leave before the river froze over, hence building the rafts
                                    because the nearest train station was very far away.
                                    She added that halfway through the trip, 3 people were chosen to go
                                    and barter some of their remaining things for food at a kolkhoz. My
                                    mother was one of the three. They walked and managed to sell some
                                    clothes or trade things. They then had to wait for the rafts to come
                                    down the river.
                                    They waited at a canteen (where the spoons were chained to the
                                    tables). "While we were eating our soup, a well-dressed man with a
                                    Polish eagle on his coat and a briefcase arrived with 2 Russians. He
                                    was a former professor from Krakow, and a delegate from the Polish
                                    government who had come to see what was going on with the Poles who
                                    had been freed from the various camps...
                                    The Pole bought a loaf of bread for each person on the rafts and gave
                                    some chocolate. It turned out that his briefcase was full of money,
                                    both English and Russian."

                                    Later they tried to join the army in Margelian, but arrived too late,
                                    the main body had already moved southwest. (This links up with
                                    Romuald's post about the various army groupings -- I'm pleased to have
                                    some confirmation of place names).

                                    So to answer your question, it looks as though they found out about
                                    the amnesty in August. Will confirm further when I get the information.


                                    --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, l willis <lwil22000@y...> wrote:
                                    > Hello Barbara,
                                    >
                                    > Just a question I had about your comments below. You
                                    > say that your mother was freed in August 1941 but not
                                    > able to leave until October 1941. At what point did
                                    > your mother learn of the Amnesty to let Poles leave
                                    > the U.S.S.R. and go to Persia, or would she remember?
                                    > I ask because the documents I have show a similar gap
                                    > in time: from late 1941 until March 1942 (the date on
                                    > the travel documents). I keep wondering if people
                                    > were told of this amnesty at the time they were freed
                                    > and whether they were given the amnesty/travel
                                    > documents then and there or only after they reached
                                    > some place like Khrasnoyarsk or Novosibirsk.
                                    >
                                    > If you remember, would you kindly ask your mother?
                                    > Thank you. Sincerely, Linda
                                    >
                                  • Linder Ladbrooke
                                    To Linder Writing to Andrew Schcitz takes ages for a reply, But, he will reply, probably, with more than you asked for. There’s only 2/3 regular paid
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                      To Linder

                                       

                                      Writing to Andrew Schcitz takes ages for a reply, But, he will reply, probably, with more than you asked for. There’s only 2/3 regular paid employee’s, the rest help out for free. Not on computer, still in the dark ages, but he WILL reply, honest!

                                      He’s a good bloke. Don’t give up on him.

                                      Linder

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of l willis
                                      Sent: 03 June 2005 17:00
                                      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Guzar - Krasnovodsk - Pahlevi - 1942

                                       

                                      Dear Halina,

                                      Thank you again for this information.  I have been in
                                      touch with the Sikorski Museum and so far have not
                                      found the information I seek.  But I recently wrote
                                      another letter to Mr. Suchcitz and I will keep my
                                      fingers crossed this. 

                                      Thank you for the time frame below.  It does help to
                                      sort out what happened to so many people throughout
                                      1942. 

                                      Can I say thank you again???  Sincerely,  Linda

                                      --- Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:

                                      > Dear Dave and Linda,
                                      >
                                      > Here are a few dates that might help with your own
                                      > research:
                                      >
                                      > August 4th 1941
                                      > General W?adys?aw Anders is release from Lubianka
                                      > prison, Moscow.
                                      > He begins formation of 2nd Corps in Buzuluk.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > January 15th 1942
                                      > Anders moves his HQ from Buzuluk to Yangi-Yaul near
                                      > Tashkent (capital of
                                      > Uzbekistan).
                                      > Other army enrolment posts are set up in
                                      > Kirgishstan, Kazakhstan (inc.
                                      > Lugovoj) and Tadzykistan. (I would assume that the
                                      > Sikorski Institute in
                                      > London has details of all these collection points -
                                      > unless there is a book
                                      > listing them, which I'm unaware of).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Between 42 March 26th - April 10th
                                      > 33,000 military and 11,000 civilians are evacuated
                                      > out of the USSR.
                                      > At the same time, on 1st April, all Polish units
                                      > formed in the USSR fall
                                      > under British command.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > August 1942
                                      > Second mass evacuation of Poles from USSR to Persia.
                                      > While 98% of the
                                      > evacuation is by tanker across the Caspian (from
                                      > Krasnovodsk to Pahlavi) an
                                      > overland evacuation of 701 soldiers and 1,936
                                      > civilians (many orphans) also
                                      > occurs.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > January 16th 1943
                                      > Moscow informs Polish GOV-IN-EXILE that all
                                      > remaining Kresy deportees will
                                      > be considered Soviet citizens. This puts an end to
                                      > further plans for
                                      > evacuation.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I recently read that Sikorski was pushing for a
                                      > third evacuation of Poles
                                      > from the USSR. This occured just after the Katyn war
                                      > crime was uncovered.
                                      > Churchill was trying to pacify Sikorski (ie. shut
                                      > him up) bu negotiating
                                      > with Stalin for one last evacuation of Poles from
                                      > the USSR. It seems that
                                      > Sikorski was going for this plan just when,
                                      > conveniently for everyone, his
                                      > plane crashed.
                                      >
                                      > Pozdrowienia,
                                      > Halina UK
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • l willis
                                      Hello Barbara, Thank you very much for all the details. It s wonderful that you have someone in your family who remembers so much of what happened! Although
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                        Hello Barbara,

                                        Thank you very much for all the details. It's
                                        wonderful that you have someone in your family who
                                        remembers so much of what happened! Although their
                                        experience was definitely not "wonderful" at all.

                                        Again, another small question re the papers given to
                                        the amnestied Poles. Does your mother remember
                                        whether their papers were checked along the way? From
                                        what you have described below, and what I have read of
                                        other member's experiences, it seems surprising that
                                        so many ex-prisoners were wandering all over the place
                                        in search of food, work, etc. while waiting for
                                        transport to be arranged. Were papers checked at all
                                        frequently? Again, I am curious about the attitude by
                                        the Russians towards so many "freed" people wandering
                                        around the countryside as it were; and the comments on
                                        this website about harrassment and extortion from
                                        Soviet officials.

                                        Thank you again for all these details. Sincerely,
                                        Linda

                                        --- Barbara Jachowicz Davoust <b.davoust@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > Hello Linda,
                                        > To add more details from what I already have -- (I
                                        > wrote this stuff
                                        > down about 10 years ago, at least):
                                        > My mother said they were told they were freed in
                                        > August 1941 and given
                                        > their papers.
                                        > Despite the transportation difficulties, most of
                                        > those who could
                                        > wanted to leave before the river froze over, hence
                                        > building the rafts
                                        > because the nearest train station was very far away.
                                        > She added that halfway through the trip, 3 people
                                        > were chosen to go
                                        > and barter some of their remaining things for food
                                        > at a kolkhoz. My
                                        > mother was one of the three. They walked and
                                        > managed to sell some
                                        > clothes or trade things. They then had to wait for
                                        > the rafts to come
                                        > down the river.
                                        > They waited at a canteen (where the spoons were
                                        > chained to the
                                        > tables). "While we were eating our soup, a
                                        > well-dressed man with a
                                        > Polish eagle on his coat and a briefcase arrived
                                        > with 2 Russians. He
                                        > was a former professor from Krakow, and a delegate
                                        > from the Polish
                                        > government who had come to see what was going on
                                        > with the Poles who
                                        > had been freed from the various camps...
                                        > The Pole bought a loaf of bread for each person on
                                        > the rafts and gave
                                        > some chocolate. It turned out that his briefcase
                                        > was full of money,
                                        > both English and Russian."
                                        >
                                        > Later they tried to join the army in Margelian, but
                                        > arrived too late,
                                        > the main body had already moved southwest. (This
                                        > links up with
                                        > Romuald's post about the various army groupings --
                                        > I'm pleased to have
                                        > some confirmation of place names).
                                        >
                                        > So to answer your question, it looks as though they
                                        > found out about
                                        > the amnesty in August. Will confirm further when I
                                        > get the information.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, l willis
                                        > <lwil22000@y...> wrote:
                                        > > Hello Barbara,
                                        > >
                                        > > Just a question I had about your comments below.
                                        > You
                                        > > say that your mother was freed in August 1941 but
                                        > not
                                        > > able to leave until October 1941. At what point
                                        > did
                                        > > your mother learn of the Amnesty to let Poles
                                        > leave
                                        > > the U.S.S.R. and go to Persia, or would she
                                        > remember?
                                        > > I ask because the documents I have show a similar
                                        > gap
                                        > > in time: from late 1941 until March 1942 (the
                                        > date on
                                        > > the travel documents). I keep wondering if people
                                        > > were told of this amnesty at the time they were
                                        > freed
                                        > > and whether they were given the amnesty/travel
                                        > > documents then and there or only after they
                                        > reached
                                        > > some place like Khrasnoyarsk or Novosibirsk.
                                        > >
                                        > > If you remember, would you kindly ask your mother?
                                        >
                                        > > Thank you. Sincerely, Linda
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >




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                                      • PREZADO(A) AMIGO(A)
                                        I HAVE MSN MESSENGER danieldourados1@hotmail.com what is your MSN MESSENGER, please thanks DANIEL LAPCHENSKI ... Yahoo! Mail: agora com 1GB de espaço grátis.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jun 4, 2005
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                                           I HAVE MSN MESSENGER

                                          danieldourados1@...

                                          what is your MSN MESSENGER, please

                                          thanks

                                           

                                          DANIEL LAPCHENSKI


                                          Yahoo! Mail: agora com 1GB de espaço grátis. Abra sua conta!
                                        • PREZADO(A) AMIGO(A)
                                          I HAVE MSN MESSENGER danieldourados1@hotmail.com what is your MSN MESSENGER, please thanks DANIEL LAPCHENSKI ... Yahoo! Mail: agora com 1GB de espaço grátis.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jun 4, 2005
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                                             I HAVE MSN MESSENGER

                                            danieldourados1@...

                                            what is your MSN MESSENGER, please

                                            thanks

                                             

                                            DANIEL LAPCHENSKI


                                            Yahoo! Mail: agora com 1GB de espaço grátis. Abra sua conta!
                                          • Michael Kulik
                                            ... Joined a real train (not freight) in Omsk then to ... Osh. ... of ... Hi Barb: My family also landed in Osh, eventually. According to my Dad, Osh was
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jun 5, 2005
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                                              --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara Jachowicz Davoust"
                                              <b.davoust@f...> wrote:
                                              > To add to the travel programme, I just checked on the information my
                                              > mother provided a few years ago, although it seems incomplete:
                                              >
                                              Joined a real train (not freight) in Omsk then to
                                              > Novosibirsk, Barnaul, Semipalatinsk, Alma Ata, Frunze, Tashkent,
                                              Osh.
                                              > Then it seems to be fairly incomplete until they met the main body
                                              of
                                              > >
                                              > Barbara Davoust

                                              Hi Barb:

                                              My family also landed in Osh, eventually. According to my Dad, Osh
                                              was literally the "end of the line" and here people were more or less
                                              forced off the trains.

                                              It seems that "the authorities" were trying to get the Poles off the
                                              trains anywhere from Alma Ata south with promises of work, food etc.

                                              After Osh, it was then Nau Kat, Fergana, Gorchakow before the
                                              eventual run for Krasnavodsk.


                                              Michael Kulik
                                              England.
                                            • mirzabie@poczta.onet.pl
                                              However, not all of them were informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants because they were a cheap and badly needed labour force No. Of course,
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jun 10, 2005
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                                                "However, not all of them were
                                                informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants because they were a
                                                cheap and badly needed labour force"
                                                 
                                                No. Of course, they were not informed by commandants but why? The answer is thajt the general aim of the USSR system was to obtain a special pedagogization and not to obtain an economical result.
                                                MZ
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:41 AM
                                                Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Guzar - Krasnovodsk - Pahlevi - 1942

                                                Dave,  I'd like to ask a question of your Mom's journey.  You say she went from Taskent to Buzuluk....everyone else went the other way...from Buzuluk towards  Tashkent. The original army formations started in Buzuluk in 1941, and were moved southward within months to a warmer climate finally most ending up in Tashkent area. I am just wondering if this is error or in fact did your Mom  end up traveling north which is odd.
                                                 
                                                 
                                                hania

                                                Dave Lichtenstein <kipkarren@...> wrote:
                                                Hello Halina

                                                From your message below you seem to have some expertise on movements of exiled Poles from Novosibirsk to Persia.   Limited information that I have from my late mother suggested that after Novosibirsk she ended up in Karaganda. (Viewing a current affairs snippet on contemporary Russian reaction to Stalin earlier this week, I heard the name Karaganda mentioned in reference to exiled Russians sent there as a Gulag work camp).  From there she was sent to camps to Kirghistan and Uzbekistan.  Apparently in the latter she was picking cotton.  After Tashkent she went to Buzuluk where she joined the Polish army and ended up in Tehran in 1942 having travelled via the Caspian sea.

                                                So I have three questions to pose to your good self and others:

                                                1. Why these journeys and why in that order
                                                2. Do your maps show any of these journeys
                                                3. Anyone else roughly followed the routes that my mother took to Persia during that time

                                                Many thanks

                                                Dave Lichtenstein

                                                Sydney, Australia


                                                Halina Szulakowska <hszulakowska@...> wrote:
                                                Dear Linda,

                                                I'll reply to your query about the amnesty first: All Polish Citizens that
                                                were deported were entitled to the amnesty. However, not all of them were
                                                informed of it by their camp/gulag/kolhoz commandants because they were a
                                                cheap and badly needed labour force. it was a 'begrudging' amnesty that was
                                                granted.

                                                My family on my mother's side were deported to a camp called Kurochka, about
                                                100km south of Novosibirsk, from the Podole in Feb 1940. They were told of
                                                the Amnesty in Sept 1941 and set off by train south to Kazakhstan. When they
                                                ran out of money, they found work on a Kolhoz near Aktobe (about 50km north
                                                east of Chu).

                                                In late Jan 1942 the two oldest sons from the family left the Kolhoz and
                                                caught a train for Logovoj. Here, they enlisted at the beginning of
                                                February.

                                                On the 1st March a transport left Lugovoj with my uncles bound for
                                                Krasnovodsk. The rest of the family had permits to catch this train and be
                                                evacuated. However, they were late arriving in Lugovoj. They arrived just as
                                                the army train was ready to pull away. My mother remembers hearing the
                                                soldiers on board singing the hymn 'Serdeczna Matka'. If my grandfather
                                                hadn't gone to report to the Polska Placowka first, my mother believes they
                                                would have caught the transport.

                                                Instead, they got left behind with other Polish civilians, who set up a
                                                shanty town around the Placowka. That's when my mother and another uncle
                                                caught Tyfus - from the rats and lack of sanitation. The children were then
                                                taken to the local civilian hospital in Lugovoj and given exactly four weeks
                                                to recover and then leave.

                                                Since another transport wasn't being planned immediately, the Placowka
                                                started finding work for the Polish Citizens in kolhoz farms nearby. My
                                                family were assigned to one at Konzavod (25km away from Lugovoj).

                                                Not until August that same year did a second transport out of Lugovoj
                                                arrive. The family, along with the other Poles at the Placowka, were told by
                                                the Commandant that they would not be allowed to leave... So the Poles, en
                                                masse, packed up and walked out. They left Kazakhstan on 15th August - the
                                                Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin - and everybody sang Marian hymns as
                                                the train pulled away.

                                                Why there was a delay between the two evacuations of the Polish Citizens
                                                from the USSR is unknown to me. I've asked this question of the KSgroup
                                                before. I know, from what I've read, that the British Army and the
                                                US/British Red Cross at Pahlavi were shocked by the state of the first Poles
                                                arriving in Iran. They also weren't prepared for the number of civilians and
                                                orphaned children arriving. Maybe they, therefore, needed time to reorganise
                                                their relief aid program before more could be taken out of the USSR.

                                                I have reconstructed a map of the Kazak area mentioned above, and can post
                                                this to you privately if you would like.

                                                Pozdrowienia,
                                                Halina

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                                                KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                                                "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                                                deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
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                                                deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                                                ****************************************************************************
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