Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Soviet Memorial

Expand Messages
  • kms0902@sympatico.ca
    Reference: 2/8/05 Los Angeles Times article City to Honor Sacrifices of Soviet Soldiers - West Hollywood, home to many Russian immigrants, is planning
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 5, 2005
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
       
      Reference:  2/8/05  Los Angeles Times article   "City to Honor Sacrifices of Soviet Soldiers  -  West Hollywood, home to many Russian immigrants, is planning to build a memorial to fighters who served during WWII."
       
      Dear Ms Simmons,
       
      I have read your article with great interest, as well as the follow up commentary and letters-to-the-editor that also appeared in the LA Times, and I feel that I must voice my own concerns on this subject. 
       
      I am a member of an Internet Group (Kresy-Siberia) a group that is  "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."  It is estimated that 1.7 million Poles were deported and some 240,000 subsequently made it out.  But Polish citizens were not the only ones to be subjected to this "Unknown Holocaust" - many citizens of the surrounding countries suffered the same fate.  This is how Russia actually  "liberated"  the citizens of the eastern bloc countries !  (Some liberation !)
       
      Whereas Germany's strangle-hold only lasted until 1945, that of the Soviet Union lasted until 1991 - for ALL of these countries.  And the atrocities continued unabated behind that Iron Curtain.
       
      Members of my own family were deported from Poland's eastern borderlands on February 10th, 1940 - my mother, her elderly parents and her siblings.  Ten (10) members were deported; four (4) survived the ordeal.  They were driven from their beds in the middle of the night - given minutes to gather their belongings - were marched to the nearest train station several miles away and loaded into wooden cattle cars (50 to 70 people per cattle car).  Wooden benches lined two walls, and there was a small wood-burning stove (with very little firewood) and a hole in the floor that served as a toilet.  They were kept in these cattle cars for 36 hours, in minus 40 degree temperatures, before the train rolled out of the station and headed east - into the wastelands of Russia.  They travelled in this way for the next 3 weeks, during the coldest winter in living memory.  Many died of cold and starvation along the way and the Soviet soldiers threw their bodies from the trains and left them without burial, without a single prayer or sign of respect for human life.
       
      My family ended up in a desolate area of Northern Kazakhstan, while many others ended up in Northern Siberia.  Every member of the family - except the elderly parents - were put to work in the gold mines, crawling through the dark, damp tunnels, working on their knees or in a prone position in order to dig further into the ground.  Their payment for this back-breaking labour :  2 slices of bread per day + some watery soup.  There were few days off in the 2 years that they spent there, and they had no medical care whatsoever.  One by one, the parents, 3 siblings and a sister-in-law died of typhoid fever and malnutrition.  Their graves, unmarked and scattered across the frozen tundra.
       
      It was only by a miracle that the remaining four sisters managed to make it out with the Polish army that was formed after an agreement was reached between the Polish government-in-exile and the Russians, once the Germans broke their previous secret agreement and attacked Russia.  They eventually made their way to refugee camps in the Middle East and then to East Africa, and eventually to England.  And they have lived with the nightmares ever since.
       
      Much of the world is unaware of these facts.  The Russians made certain that none of this information was publicized as long as they controlled the press in Poland and the Eastern Bloc countries.  The surviving deportees did not speak of these experiences during all the years that Russia was in control, for fear of reprisal against themselves or family members living behind the Iron Curtain.  The Allies - England and the U.S. - although aware of these deportations, did not publicize them either as it would have been embarrassing to admit that they had associated themselves with a monstrous killing machine of the same ilk as Nazi Germany.   After all, it is estimated that the numbers killed in Soviet Russia FAR OUTNUMBER the victims of Hitler's Germany.

      All this to say that there is no rhyme or reason to having a monument to Soviet soldiers on American soil.  To begin with, the Soviets were just as responsible for the outbreak of the war as were the Germans.  They signed a non-aggression pack with Nazi Germany, agreeing to let Germany attack Poland from the west, and it would then attack from the east, and neither would interfere with the other.  The ultimate goal was to wipe Poland entirely off the map of the world.  And, for a time, they did just that.  The Russian army waited calmly across the river as the Germans destroyed Warsaw, and then they swooped in for the kill.
       
      It should also be known that wherever the Russian army went  -  while they were "liberating" eastern Europe  -  the soldiers systematically looted, burned, and destroyed everything in their path, and hundreds of thousands of women were raped in the process.  So when these soldiers in LA speak of "liberating" these countries, I can assure you that the citizens of the countries in question have a MUCH different view of their actions. 
       
      The Germans occupied these countries during the period of 1939 - 1945, but the Russians occupied them from 1945 to 1991, and continued to commit unspeakable atrocities to the very end.  They are not seen as "liberators" in any of these countries, and this monument is an insult to all the victims of this inhumane regime.
       
      It is important to remember that Stalin and his henchmen were not alone in carrying out these atrocities.  Stalin could never have killed so many millions all by himself.  There were officers and soldiers all the way down the line who were responsible for these barbaric acts.    Officers and soldiers who ended up with a string of medals and citations and government awards - thanking them for their service to Communism and their unfailing dedication to duty and obedience to their superiors. 
       
      So, when your article quotes a Lt-Colonel with 22 medals and 6 government awards as being one of the Soviet soldiers being honoured, I cannot help but be extremely sceptical about his role in the Soviet military through the 30 years that he spent there.  Since one did not get promotions in Russia unless one was truly an exemplary Communist, then I must wonder what actions did this Lt-Colonel take that merited so many medals and awards ?????   Maybe it is all above-board, but how embarrassing would it be to the U.S. if any of these veterans are later discovered to be involved in any of the unsavoury activities mentioned above ......  And how much more cruel to the victims would this be  -  to be betrayed one more time, and by an ALLY and a friend.
       
      In conclusion, I hope that you will decide to take this story further and to present the other side of the picture.  Please feel free to contact me should you have any questions.
       
      Krystyna Szypowska
      Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    • Elizabeth Olsson
      Hi Krys I’m currently working on a list of member introductions, some of which go back to the beginning of the list. Do both of these descriptions belong to
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 8, 2005
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment

        Hi Krys

        I’m currently working on a list of member introductions, some of which go back to the beginning of the list.

        Do both of these descriptions belong to you?

        Did you used to live in Montreal before? Or do we have two Krystyna Szypowska’s?

         

        I’m glad to see that you’ve written so many letters protesting about the LA memorial – I wish the rest of the members would do the same.

         

        Pozdrowienia

        Elzunia Olsson

        Sweden

         

         

        Szypowska, Krystyna

        krystyna@...

        Montreal, Canada

        Deported Feb.10th, 1940 they ended up in Kazakhstan where her mother, father and sister died.  A brother and sister-in-law and their daughter later died in Teheran, Persia.  The surviving 4 sisters (who had slaved in the gold mines in Kazakhstan) found their way to a camp in east Africa, and eventually ended up in England. I was born here in Montreal, a few short months after my parents arrived here from England.

        Szypowska, Krystyna (Siomkajlo)

        kms0902@...

        Kingston, Ontario, Canada

        The Siomkajlo sisters: The youngest was Stasia (Stanislawa) who would have been about 15 years old - Julia (my mother) and Johanna were 20 and 21, and the oldest Aniela was 36 when they got there. Julia and Johanna left for England in 1944 to join the WAF's. Aniela and Stasia left in 1946 to join a convent in Rongai, Kenya

         

         

        Krystyna Szypowska

        Kingston, Ontario, Canada



        ****************************************************************************
        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        ****************************************************************************
        Discussion site : 
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
        Virtual Memorial Wall :
        http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
        Gallery (photos, documents) :
        http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
        Film and info : 
        http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
        ****************************************************************************
        To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
        saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
        Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
        ****************************************************************************




      • bartmant@earthlink.net
        Hi, FYI below is something I got from a historian commenting on statement in letter to Prang about Nazi-Soviet pact. Tilford The first two sentences are at the
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 22, 2005
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi, FYI below is something I got from a historian commenting on statement
          in letter to Prang about Nazi-Soviet pact.

          Tilford


          The first two sentences are at the very
          least misleading. Only the last sentence is correct.

          About two weeks after the German attack on Poland and with Poland on the
          edge of defeat, the Soviet Union occupied the sector allocated to it in
          the secret protocol attached to the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact,
          defining their respective spheres of influence in eastern Europe. While
          this Soviet action certainly qualifies as an invasion, it was very
          different from the German invasion, for two reasons: It was intended to
          prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland, and it laid claim to
          an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil War. This area had a
          mixed population with an Ukrainian-Ruthenian majority and a Polish
          minority. The western border of this area coincided roughly with the
          so-called "Curzon line" projected as Poland's eastern borders by the
          peacemakers in Paris after the First World War.

          To call the Soviet Union an "ally" of Germany is a bit misleading as
          well. While the USSR certainly supplied food and raw materials to the
          Germans (in return for manufactured goods), the Soviets rejected German
          overtures for a formal alliance and refused to be lured into war against
          Britain or its allies after the fall of France, despite German efforts
          to tempt them with promises of British imperial possessions in Asia. The
          Soviets were equally adamant in rejecting British overtures for closer
          cooperation before the German invasion in June 1941. They certainly
          were suspicious of the Western powers, whom they suspected of wanting to
          lure them into war against Germany. Hence they even disregarded British
          and American warnings of an impending German attack in the spring of
          1941.



          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          mail2web - Check your email from the web at
          http://mail2web.com/ .
        • bartmant@earthlink.net
          Hi, This is comment on same Nazi-Soviet pact by a Polish historian I know on the internet. Tilford The paragraph is basically correct, provided the term
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 22, 2005
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi,

            This is comment on same Nazi-Soviet pact by a Polish historian I know on
            the internet.

            Tilford

            The paragraph is basically correct, provided the term "enemy" is not taken
            to mean being in an official state of war.

            Germany and the Soviet Union had had some forms of military cooperation in
            the 1920s. Hitler's rise to power put a temporary stop to that, but secret
            contacts between the two dictatorships restarted perhaps as early as 1935.
            In Aug. 1939 the two countries signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Secret
            protocols of this pact divided up east-central Europe into Nazi and Soviet
            spheres of
            influence (some details of this division were modified in late Sept. 1939).
            The major provision was for the destruction of Poland by armed force and
            its
            partition and destruction.

            On Sept. 17, Soviet forces attacked eastern Poland. This occurred at a time
            when Polish defenses were stiffening in the southeast. (The Nazis suffered
            their highest casualties in the third week of the campaign.) The Soviet
            attack caused a much faster defeat than otherwise would have occurred,
            saving the lives of many Nazis. There was fierce resistance to the Soviet
            attack by local Polish forces in eastern Poland, but these forces were too
            small to offer lengthy resistance. Both Nazis and Soviets initiated a
            campaign of killing immediately on entering Poland, with the Soviets
            additionally urging the participation of Ukrainian nationalists in pogroms
            against Polish farmers, nobility and government officials. Both Nazis and
            Soviets carried out programs of systematic killing and ethnic cleansing,
            albeit with different goals in minds.

            After cessation of large-scale military resistance (Oct. 5), the Nazis and
            Soviets continued to cooperate both on the local level and otherwise. The
            Soviets supplied the Nazis with critical raw materials including oil.
            Soviet
            participation in the partition of Poland freed up significant numbers of
            German troops for duty elsewhere, especially the campaigns in western
            Europe. The Soviets also received a free hand for their attack on Finland.

            So there was no question that the Nazis and Soviets were close allies and
            that Soviet help provided a major boost to Hitler's military conquests. The
            Poles were almost unanimous in their view that the Nazis and Soviets were
            both mortal enemies. While the Soviets ended the killing at places such as
            Auschwitz, they certainly did not bring liberation. While the Soviets saved
            many Jews (without necessarily intending to do so), they also killed quite
            a few Jews, especially those viewed as class enemies or who were not
            willing to go along with the Soviet worldview. About 1 in 10 of the Polish
            officers murdered at Katyn were Jewish.



            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            mail2web - Check your email from the web at
            http://mail2web.com/ .
          • W Bog
            Dear Group let us not start this futile agrument as to who took what from whom!!!. If we insist on claims that the Eastern Poland was a land rightfully
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 22, 2005
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Group
              let us not start this futile agrument as to who took what from whom!!!. If we insist on claims that the Eastern Poland was a land rightfully reclaimed by Russia as losses in the 1920 war,  then how far do we go back as to who owned what. In the 17hundreds in the partition of Poland Russia took all the land west of Minsk to Warszaw and for 123 years did all things to russify the people and the land and strip it of all things polish. In 1370-something Kazimierz Wielki purchased from Lui king of Hungary and the rightfull owner( through a treaty of succession with Halicja and Poland) of the principality of Halicja( note not Galicja -which in 1908 was Austrian name given to a land deemed to be ukrainian, to entice ukrainian population to join the austrian army) > Halicja is as best as I can picture the land known as whole  Woj. Poleskie and substancial part of the northern Woj. Wolynskie and going west on to Sandomierz. In 1500 the delegation of East Prussia begged our king to let them join Poland.In 1004 king Boleslaw drowe border posts in the river Dniestr .If we allow others to claim historically precedential 
              ownership to any land then what...How far back? Think of it that russia as we now know did not exist untill some 450 years ago when Iwan united all the other small principalities and broke away from Tartars.Germany as we know also is new and only from 1701when it united all smaller principalities and Prussia. What next..
               
              In reference to eastern borders of Poland there seems to be a gap in understanding..there were no borders defined for Eastern Poland only a vague reference to the german eastern front lines and this luke warm statement was interpreted by ukrainians as Lwow was their city. That is why Orlatka Lwowskie ( some as young as 13) fought the Ukrainians to retain Lwow as our city. This omission was one of the reasons of Pilsudskis attempt to solidify these borders and his trip to Kijow. Now with all this who owns what land?
               
              I have great dificulty in understanding the terms of what action makes an ally...Yes in one instance it is the joint participation in war..but surely if a material and finacial and political support is given to one or the other belicose partner is that also not an ally surely not an enemy.
              Dziadzius
              "bartmant@..." <bartmant@...> wrote:

              About two weeks after the German attack on Poland and with Poland on the
              edge of defeat, the Soviet Union occupied the sector allocated to it in
              the secret protocol attached to the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact,
              defining their respective spheres of influence in eastern Europe. While
              this Soviet action certainly qualifies as an invasion, it was very
              different from the German invasion, for two reasons: It was intended to
              prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland, and it laid claim to
              an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil
              War. This area had a
              mixed population with an Ukrainian-Ruthenian majority and a Polish
              minority. The western border of this area coincided roughly with the
              so-called "Curzon line" projected as Poland's eastern borders by the
              peacemakers in Paris after the First World
              War.

              To call the Soviet Union an "ally" of Germany is a bit misleading as
              well. While the USSR certainly supplied food and raw materials to the
              Germans (in return for manufactured goods), the Soviets rejected German
              overtures for a formal alliance and refused to be lured into war against
              Britain or its allies after the fall of France, despite German efforts
              to tempt them with promises of British imperial possessions in Asia. The
              Soviets were equally adamant in rejecting British overtures for closer
              cooperation before the German invasion in June 1941. They certainly
              were suspicious of the Western powers, whom they suspected of wanting to
              lure them into war against Germany. Hence they even disregarded British
              and American warnings of an impending German attack in the spring of
              1941.



              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              mail2web - Check your email from the web at
              http://mail2web.com/ .




              ****************************************************************************
              KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
              "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
              deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
              ****************************************************************************
              Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
              Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
              Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
              Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
              ****************************************************************************
              To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
              saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
              Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
              ****************************************************************************





              Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals

            • bartmant@earthlink.net
              Just to make clear the statement about Nazi soviet pact was not made by me but by a historian I know on the internet who was responding to statement about
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 22, 2005
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Just to make clear the statement about Nazi soviet pact was not made by me
                but by a historian I know on the internet who was responding to statement
                about Nazi-Soviet used in petition.

                Tilford

                Dear Group
                let us not start this futile agrument as to who took what from whom!!!. If
                we insist on claims that the Eastern Poland was a land rightfully reclaimed
                by Russia as losses in the 1920 war, then how far do we go back as to who
                owned what. In the 17hundreds in the partition of Poland Russia took all
                the land west of Minsk to Warszaw and for 123 years did all things to
                russify the people and the land and strip it of all things polish. In
                1370-something Kazimierz Wielki purchased from Lui king of Hungary and the
                rightfull owner( through a treaty of succession with Halicja and Poland) of
                the principality of Halicja( note not Galicja -which in 1908 was Austrian
                name given to a land deemed to be ukrainian, to entice ukrainian population
                to join the austrian army) > Halicja is as best as I can picture the land
                known as whole Woj. Poleskie and substancial part of the northern Woj.
                Wolynskie and going west on to Sandomierz. In 1500 the delegation of East
                Prussia begged our king to let them
                join Poland.In 1004 king Boleslaw drowe border posts in the river Dniestr
                .If we allow others to claim historically precedential
                ownership to any land then what...How far back? Think of it that russia as
                we now know did not exist untill some 450 years ago when Iwan united all
                the other small principalities and broke away from Tartars.Germany as we
                know also is new and only from 1701when it united all smaller
                principalities and Prussia. What next..

                In reference to eastern borders of Poland there seems to be a gap in
                understanding..there were no borders defined for Eastern Poland only a
                vague reference to the german eastern front lines and this luke warm
                statement was interpreted by ukrainians as Lwow was their city. That is why
                Orlatka Lwowskie ( some as young as 13) fought the Ukrainians to retain
                Lwow as our city. This omission was one of the reasons of Pilsudskis
                attempt to solidify these borders and his trip to Kijow. Now with all this
                who owns what land?

                I have great dificulty in understanding the terms of what action makes an
                ally...Yes in one instance it is the joint participation in war..but surely
                if a material and finacial and political support is given to one or the
                other belicose partner is that also not an ally surely not an enemy.
                Dziadzius
                "bartmant@..." <bartmant@...> wrote:

                About two weeks after the German attack on Poland and with Poland on the
                edge of defeat, the Soviet Union occupied the sector allocated to it in
                the secret protocol attached to the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact,
                defining their respective spheres of influence in eastern Europe. While
                this Soviet action certainly qualifies as an invasion, it was very
                different from the German invasion, for two reasons: It was intended to
                prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland, and it laid claim to
                an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil War. This area had a
                mixed population with an Ukrainian-Ruthenian majority and a Polish
                minority. The western border of this area coincided roughly with the
                so-called "Curzon line" projected as Poland's eastern borders by the
                peacemakers in Paris after the First World War.

                To call the Soviet Union an "ally" of Germany is a bit misleading as
                well. While the USSR certainly supplied food and raw materials to the
                Germans (in return for manufactured goods), the Soviets rejected German
                overtures for a formal alliance and refused to be lured into war against
                Britain or its allies after the fall of France, despite German efforts
                to tempt them with promises of British imperial possessions in Asia. The
                Soviets were equally adamant in rejecting British overtures for closer
                cooperation before the German invasion in June 1941. They certainly
                were suspicious of the Western powers, whom they suspected of wanting to
                lure them into war against Germany. Hence they even disregarded British
                and American warnings of an impending German attack in the spring of
                1941.



                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                http://mail2web.com/ .




                ****************************************************************************
                KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                ****************************************************************************
                Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                ****************************************************************************

                To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                ****************************************************************************



                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                ---------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                ---------------------------------
                Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                http://mail2web.com/ .
              • Eve
                Dziadzius - The Petition that was posted on Friday, Third and Final Revision is it. It will not be changed again. Regards, Eve Jankowicz ... whom!!!. If we
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 22, 2005
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dziadzius -

                  The Petition that was posted on Friday, "Third and Final Revision" is
                  it. It will not be changed again.

                  Regards,
                  Eve Jankowicz

                  --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, W Bog <giewonty@y...> wrote:
                  > Dear Group
                  > let us not start this futile agrument as to who took what from
                  whom!!!. If we insist on claims that the Eastern Poland was a land
                  rightfully reclaimed by Russia as losses in the 1920 war, then how
                  far do we go back as to who owned what. In the 17hundreds in the
                  partition of Poland Russia took all the land west of Minsk to Warszaw
                  and for 123 years did all things to russify the people and the land
                  and strip it of all things polish. In 1370-something Kazimierz Wielki
                  purchased from Lui king of Hungary and the rightfull owner( through a
                  treaty of succession with Halicja and Poland) of the principality of
                  Halicja( note not Galicja -which in 1908 was Austrian name given to a
                  land deemed to be ukrainian, to entice ukrainian population to join
                  the austrian army) > Halicja is as best as I can picture the land
                  known as whole Woj. Poleskie and substancial part of the northern
                  Woj. Wolynskie and going west on to Sandomierz. In 1500 the
                  delegation of East Prussia begged our king to let them
                  > join Poland.In 1004 king Boleslaw drowe border posts in the river
                  Dniestr .If we allow others to claim historically precedential
                  > ownership to any land then what...How far back? Think of it that
                  russia as we now know did not exist untill some 450 years ago when
                  Iwan united all the other small principalities and broke away from
                  Tartars.Germany as we know also is new and only from 1701when it
                  united all smaller principalities and Prussia. What next..
                  >
                  > In reference to eastern borders of Poland there seems to be a gap
                  in understanding..there were no borders defined for Eastern Poland
                  only a vague reference to the german eastern front lines and this
                  luke warm statement was interpreted by ukrainians as Lwow was their
                  city. That is why Orlatka Lwowskie ( some as young as 13) fought the
                  Ukrainians to retain Lwow as our city. This omission was one of the
                  reasons of Pilsudskis attempt to solidify these borders and his trip
                  to Kijow. Now with all this who owns what land?
                  >
                  > I have great dificulty in understanding the terms of what action
                  makes an ally...Yes in one instance it is the joint participation in
                  war..but surely if a material and finacial and political support is
                  given to one or the other belicose partner is that also not an ally
                  surely not an enemy.
                  > Dziadzius
                • Anne Kaczanowski
                  My God, a historian responded like this? This is very sad. Re: bartmant@earthlink.net wrote: Hi, FYI below is something I got from a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 22, 2005
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment

                    My God, a historian responded like this? This is very sad.

                    Re: "bartmant@..." <bartmant@...> wrote:

                    Hi, FYI below is something I got from a historian commenting on statement in letter to Prang about Nazi-Soviet pact.

                    Tilford


                    The first two sentences are at the very
                    least misleading. Only the last sentence is correct. 
                    While this Soviet action certainly qualifies as an invasion, it was very different from the German invasion, for two reasons: It was intended to prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland,.......

                    Why?  So Russia could occupy it herself! As she later would do just that. Why should Germany have had it all?

                     and it laid claim to
                    an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil War. This area had a
                    mixed population with an Ukrainian-Ruthenian majority and a Polish
                    minority. The western border of this area coincided roughly with the
                    so-called "Curzon line" projected as Poland's eastern borders by the
                    peacemakers in Paris after the First World War.

                    Nevertheless occupying Poland's territories illegally. 

                    To call the Soviet Union an "ally" of Germany is a bit misleading as
                    well.

                    Misleading????Were they not Allies with each other when they signed their secret agreement in August for invasion and dividing the country of Poland between themselves? They were much more allied with each other than anyone else at the time and secret about it.

                    While the USSR certainly supplied food and raw materials to the Germans (in return for manufactured goods), the Soviets rejected German overtures for a formal alliance and refused to be lured into war against Britain or its allies after the fall of France, despite German efforts to tempt them with promises of British imperial possessions in Asia. The
                    Soviets were equally adamant in rejecting British overtures for closer cooperation before the German invasion in June 1941.

                    Yes and they sure changed their minds about a formal alliance when the outcome of the invasions in their country started looking bleak to them, didn't they? They became Allies very quickly when their own territory was being invaded.

                    They certainly were suspicious of the Western powers, whom they suspected of wanting to lure them into war against Germany. Hence they even disregarded British
                    and American warnings of an impending German attack in the spring of
                    1941.

                    hania


                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    mail2web - Check your email from the web at
                    http://mail2web.com/ .




                    ****************************************************************************
                    KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
                    "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
                    deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
                    ****************************************************************************
                    Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
                    Virtual Memorial Wall : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial/
                    Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
                    Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
                    ****************************************************************************
                    To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
                    saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
                    Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    ****************************************************************************



                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com

                  • Stefan Wisniowski
                    Hi Tilford My respect for historians has gone down a notch. Your historian friend seems to be saying the Soviet invasion was not as bad as the German one, and
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 23, 2005
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Soviet Memorial Hi Tilford

                      My respect for historians has gone down a notch. Your historian friend seems to be saying the Soviet invasion was not as bad as the German one, and they were not allies anyway.

                      Apparently the Soviet invasion was “was very different from the German invasion because It was intended to prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland, and it laid claim to an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil War.”

                      Your historian friend seems unaware of the fact that Poland’s eastern boundary was agreed with the USSR in a Treaty following the Russo-Polish War of 1919-1920, which stemmed the communist drive westwards in the “Miracle of the Vistula” where Polish forces defeated the vastly superior Red Army on the outskirts of Warsaw.

                      Your historian friend also seems ignorant of the fact that Poland was partitioned before WW1 and did not exist. It’s lands had been “seized” and “occupied” by Germany, Russia and Austria-Hungary. In earlier centuries Poland was in a Commonwealth with Lithuania that extended well past its post-WW1 borders, up to the Black Sea.  My point is that justifying the Soviet invasion based on retaking lands “seized” by Poland in 1918 is spurious and replays Soviet propaganda of the time. The Soviets broke their non-aggression pact with Poland to invade in Sept 1939.  The Germans would have been entitled to the same justification your historian friend gives the Soviets, to retake lands they had once held.

                      Your historian friend also refutes the concept that the two countries were “allies” because the USSR “refused to be lured into war against Britain or its allies after the fall of France.”  However, according to the Oxford Dictionary, an ally is ”a person, organization, or country that cooperates with another”.  Cambridge Press has it as “a country that has agreed officially to give help and support to another one, especially during a war”. Merriam-Webster says “a sovereign or state associated with another by treaty or league.” Germany and the USSR had an agreement and were in league to cooperate and divide Poland militarily. After the invasion, they signed another treaty and agreed officially to give help and support to each other in subjugating Poland’s population. During war, the USSR supported Germany with critical raw materials to prosecute the war against France and England etc. The fact that Germany and the USSR were suspicious of each other or that the USSR did not declare war on the West does not change the fact they were allies.

                      Unless your historian friend is working with their own definitions of words and their own versions of history!

                      --
                      Stefan Wisniowski (moderator)
                      Sydney, Australia


                      From: "bartmant@..." <bartmant@...>

                      Hi, FYI below is something I got from a historian commenting on statement
                      in letter to Prang about Nazi-Soviet pact.

                      ...While this Soviet action certainly qualifies as an invasion, it was very
                      different from the German invasion, for two reasons: It was intended to
                      prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland, and it laid claim to
                      an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil War. This area had a
                      mixed population with an Ukrainian-Ruthenian majority and a Polish
                      minority. The western border of this area coincided roughly with the
                      so-called "Curzon line" projected as Poland's eastern borders by the
                      peacemakers in Paris after the First World War.

                      To call the Soviet Union an "ally" of Germany is a bit misleading as
                      well. While the USSR certainly supplied food and raw materials to the
                      Germans (in return for manufactured goods), the Soviets rejected German
                      overtures for a formal alliance and refused to be lured into war against
                      Britain or its allies after the fall of France, despite German efforts
                      to tempt them with promises of British imperial possessions in Asia...

                    • Tilford Bartman
                      ... If you think that one was bad I ve gotten at least one that was worse. It s interesting that these people who are well read and supposedly educated in
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 23, 2005
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Stefan Wisniowski wrote:
                        Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Soviet Memorial Hi Tilford

                        My respect for historians has gone down a notch. Your historian friend seems to be saying the Soviet invasion was not as bad as the German one, and they were not allies anyway.

                        Apparently the Soviet invasion was “was very different from the German invasion because It was intended to prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland, and it laid claim to an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil War.”

                        Your historian friend seems unaware of the fact that Poland’s eastern boundary was agreed with the USSR in a Treaty following the Russo-Polish War of 1919-1920, which stemmed the communist drive westwards in the “Miracle of the Vistula” where Polish forces defeated the vastly superior Red Army on the outskirts of Warsaw.

                        Your historian friend also seems ignorant of the fact that Poland was partitioned before WW1 and did not exist. It’s lands had been “seized” and “occupied” by Germany, Russia and Austria-Hungary. In earlier centuries Poland was in a Commonwealth with Lithuania that extended well past its post-WW1 borders, up to the Black Sea.  My point is that justifying the Soviet invasion based on retaking lands “seized” by Poland in 1918 is spurious and replays Soviet propaganda of the time. The Soviets broke their non-aggression pact with Poland to invade in Sept 1939.  The Germans would have been entitled to the same justification your historian friend gives the Soviets, to retake lands they had once held.

                        Your historian friend also refutes the concept that the two countries were “allies” because the USSR “refused to be lured into war against Britain or its allies after the fall of France.”  However, according to the Oxford Dictionary, an ally is ”a person, organization, or country that cooperates with another”.  Cambridge Press has it as “a country that has agreed officially to give help and support to another one, especially during a war”. Merriam-Webster says “a sovereign or state associated with another by treaty or league.” Germany and the USSR had an agreement and were in league to cooperate and divide Poland militarily. After the invasion, they signed another treaty and agreed officially to give help and support to each other in subjugating Poland’s population. During war, the USSR supported Germany with critical raw materials to prosecute the war against France and England etc. The fact that Germany and the USSR were suspicious of each other or that the USSR did not declare war on the West does not change the fact they were allies.

                        Unless your historian friend is working with their own definitions of words and their own versions of history!

                        --
                        Stefan Wisniowski (moderator)
                        Sydney, Australia


                        If you think that one was bad I've gotten at least one that was worse. It's interesting that these people who are well read and supposedly educated in history of this time see this period so differently.  Did you see the post from my Polish historian friend.  If not here it is below. I think it's pretty good. I'd be interested in what people think.

                        Tilford

                        Germany and the Soviet Union had had some forms of military cooperation in
                        the 1920s. Hitler's rise to power put a temporary stop to that, but secret
                        contacts between the two dictatorships restarted perhaps as early as 1935. In
                        Aug. 1939 the two countries signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Secret protocols of
                        this pact divided up east-central Europe into Nazi and Soviet spheres of
                        influence (some details of this division were modified in late Sept. 1939). The
                        major provision was for the destruction of Poland by armed force and its
                        partition and destruction.
                        
                        On Sept. 17, Soviet forces attacked eastern Poland. This occurred at a time
                        when Polish defenses were stiffening in the southeast. (The Nazis suffered
                        their  highest casualties in the third week of the campaign.) The Soviet attack
                        caused  a much faster defeat than otherwise would have occurred, saving the
                        lives of  many Nazis. There was fierce resistance to the Soviet attack by local
                        Polish  forces in eastern Poland, but these forces were too small to offer
                        lengthy  resistance. Both Nazis and Soviets initiated a campaign of killing
                        immediately  on entering Poland, with the Soviets additionally urging the
                        participation of  Ukrainian nationalists in pogroms against Polish farmers, nobility and
                         government officials. Both Nazis and Soviets carried out programs of
                        systematic  killing and ethnic cleansing, albeit with different goals in minds.
                        
                        After cessation of large-scale military resistance (Oct. 5), the Nazis and
                        Soviets continued to cooperate both on the local level and otherwise. The
                        Soviets supplied the Nazis with critical raw materials including oil. Soviet
                        participation in the partition of Poland freed up significant numbers of  German
                        troops for duty elsewhere, especially the campaigns in western Europe.  The
                        Soviets also received a free hand for their attack on Finland.
                        
                        So there was no question that the Nazis and Soviets were close allies and
                        that Soviet help provided a major boost to Hitler's military conquests. The
                        Poles were almost unanimous in their view that the Nazis and Soviets were both
                        mortal enemies. While the Soviets ended the killing at places such as
                        Auschwitz,  they certainly did not bring liberation. While the Soviets saved many Jews
                        (without necessarily intending to do so), they also killed quite a few Jews,
                        especially those viewed as class enemies or who were not willing to go along
                        with the Soviet worldview. About 1 in 10 of the Polish officers  murdered at
                        Katyn were Jewish.

                      • Zbigniew Bob Styrna
                        Respectfully, What historian? Like the Nazis/Germans/Hitler, the Soviets were completely self serving. Both wanted total world domination. In the 1930 s, the
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 29, 2005
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Respectfully, What historian?

                          Like the Nazis/Germans/Hitler, the Soviets were completely self serving. Both wanted total world
                          domination. In the 1930's, the Communists (via Russia's/Stalin's help) tried to establish
                          themselves in Germany. Hitler would have none of that as you all know. He removed them by 'force'.
                          However, Hitler was one step ahead of Stalin. Neither one of the regimes were/are much good for
                          world democracy or Poland then or now.

                          What would the Soviets be suspicious of pre WWII? Poland only wanted it's 'ancestral' lands back.
                          Which it did after the Polish Russian war of 1919. Poland could have chased the Russians all the way
                          to Kamchutka in that war. But Pilsudski elected to stop, and allow peace, and try to live in peace.
                          But no, Russia's Lenin/Stalin of the world wanted to attack, occupy, rule, enslave more lands, etc.
                          Heck, Russia ruled a huge piece of real-estate and they still wanted more. Greedy or what ?


                          In addition, in Sept 17, 1939, when Russia attacked Poland, those lands had a Polish majority
                          population. Not Ukrainian or Ruthenian. Please see Poland's Holocaust by Tadeusz Piotrowski page
                          14:
                          Polish 39.9%
                          Yiddish & Hebrew 8.4%
                          Ukranian & Ruthenian 34.4 %
                          Belorussian & local 14.7%
                          Russian, Chech, German, other 2.6%

                          ZBIG

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: bartmant@... [mailto:bartmant@...]
                          Sent: Dienstag, 22. März 2005 10:57
                          To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Soviet Memorial


                          Hi, FYI below is something I got from a historian commenting on statement
                          in letter to Prang about Nazi-Soviet pact.

                          Tilford


                          The first two sentences are at the very
                          least misleading. Only the last sentence is correct.

                          About two weeks after the German attack on Poland and with Poland on the
                          edge of defeat, the Soviet Union occupied the sector allocated to it in
                          the secret protocol attached to the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact,
                          defining their respective spheres of influence in eastern Europe. While
                          this Soviet action certainly qualifies as an invasion, it was very
                          different from the German invasion, for two reasons: It was intended to
                          prevent Germany from claiming the whole of Poland, and it laid claim to
                          an area seized by Poland during the Russian Civil War. This area had a
                          mixed population with an Ukrainian-Ruthenian majority and a Polish
                          minority. The western border of this area coincided roughly with the
                          so-called "Curzon line" projected as Poland's eastern borders by the
                          peacemakers in Paris after the First World War.

                          To call the Soviet Union an "ally" of Germany is a bit misleading as
                          well. While the USSR certainly supplied food and raw materials to the
                          Germans (in return for manufactured goods), the Soviets rejected German
                          overtures for a formal alliance and refused to be lured into war against
                          Britain or its allies after the fall of France, despite German efforts
                          to tempt them with promises of British imperial possessions in Asia. The
                          Soviets were equally adamant in rejecting British overtures for closer
                          cooperation before the German invasion in June 1941. They certainly
                          were suspicious of the Western powers, whom they suspected of wanting to
                          lure them into war against Germany. Hence they even disregarded British
                          and American warnings of an impending German attack in the spring of
                          1941.



                          --
                          No virus found in this outgoing message.
                          Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                          Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 27.03.2005
                        • Michael Kulik
                          ... lands had a Polish majority ... Holocaust by Tadeusz Piotrowski page ... As ever, statistics can be read in anyone of a number of ways - equally, based on
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 30, 2005
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Zbigniew Bob Styrna"
                            <styrna@t...> wrote:
                            >
                            > In addition, in Sept 17, 1939, when Russia attacked Poland, those
                            lands had a Polish majority
                            > population. Not Ukrainian or Ruthenian. Please see Poland's
                            Holocaust by Tadeusz Piotrowski page
                            > 14:
                            > Polish 39.9%
                            > Yiddish & Hebrew 8.4%
                            > Ukranian & Ruthenian 34.4 %
                            > Belorussian & local 14.7%
                            > Russian, Chech, German, other 2.6%
                            >
                            > ZBIG
                            >

                            As ever, statistics can be read in anyone of a number of ways -
                            equally, based on the above information it would be quiet correct for
                            some to say that 60.1% of the population was of non Polish ethnicity.

                            It also depends on what part of Russian Occupied Poland is assessed.
                            For example in Lwow the ethnic Polish population was around 65%, in
                            Wilno it was a little higher.

                            However if you draw a line roughly north to south, from Wilno to
                            Lwow, it is an undeniable fact that ethnic Poles were in the minority
                            east of this line - in some areas as little as 15-20%.

                            Post WWII Poland was the first time that the nation, albeit under
                            Russian occupation, could have been said to have been "entirely
                            Polish" and possibly somewhat poorer for the lack of its diversity.

                            Michael Kulik
                            England.
                          • Lech Lesiak
                            ... Post WWII Poland was the first time that the nation, albeit under Russian occupation, could have been said to have been entirely Polish and possibly
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 30, 2005
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- Michael Kulik <iteekulik@...> wrote:

                              Post WWII Poland was the first time that the nation,
                              albeit under
                              Russian occupation, could have been said to have been
                              "entirely
                              Polish" and possibly somewhat poorer for the lack of
                              its diversity.
                              End quote

                              That's one opinion that I tend to share since I grew
                              up in a peaceful diverse country.

                              The other view is that the ethnic cleansing that
                              created the current homogeneity in Poland was good in
                              that i eliminated most of the pre-war ethnic
                              squabbling.

                              Cheers,
                              Lech

                              ______________________________________________________________________
                              Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
                            • Zbigniew Bob Styrna
                              Michael, Yes, I agree, as usual/always, stats can be interpreted as one wishes. Also dates of the stats are important to note also. Comparing 1920to 1939 stats
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 30, 2005
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Michael,

                                 

                                Yes, I agree, as usual/always, stats can be interpreted as one wishes. Also dates of the stats are important to note also. Comparing 1920to 1939 stats reveals a lot.  However the Sept 1939, the numbers are quite telling and not really arguable for the entire Kresy Region which includes Tarnopol, Lwwo, Wolynia, etc provinces (Woj.).  

                                 

                                One 1939, if one removed all Polish people from Kresy then the demographics would look like this with the Ukranian/Ruthenian as a majority:

                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Post Feb 10, 1940 deportations          

                                                                                  Pre Sept 1939                                      imaginary deportations           actual deportations of 1-2 so say 1million

                                                                                        # in thousands     %                       # in thousands          %                       # in thousands          %             

                                Polish                      5274        39.9%          0000           .0%          4274         35.0%
                                Yiddish & Hebrew            1109         8.4%          1109         13.9%          1109          9.1%
                                Ukranian & Ruthenian        4529        34.4%          4529         57.1%          4529         37.1%
                                Belorussian & local         1945        14.7%          1945         24.5%          1945         15.9%
                                Russian,Chech,German,other   342         2.6%           342         04.3%           342          2.8%

                                TOTAL                      13199       100.0%          7925        100.0%         12199        100.0%

                                 

                                So it did not take Stalin and others long to figure out that by forcibly deporting some of the Polish people from Kresy to Siberia would change the demographics significantly.  This is precisely what “they” did.  Hence the Ukrainian/Ruthenian majority after deportations.  Of course not all 5,274,000  Poles were deported to Siberia , but if one takes out 1 million.  So I think that is why not all 5.2  million Poles were necessary to deport (to die) to Siberia . Only enough to change the demographics.  Sorry but this is just another way of looking at numbers/stats.  Now we all know that some Yiddish/Hebrew and others were also deported which would make that statistic look even better. .Some rare Ukrainians were also deported at this time. In my mom’s village, there was a well off Ukrainian fellow who voiced his opinion about the poor treatment of Polish people prior to Feb 10, 1940.  Well, he was on that same train with my relatives too.

                                 

                                If one wants to speculate, and cut up the pie (Kresy) in some imaginary horizontal/vertical lines one might draw other conclusions. However,  the line from Wilno to Lwow was not a recognized border by any country/nation that I’m aware of.  There was no such border at any time I don’t think.  I know of historical areas called Galicja, and Wolyn, etc. but ‘m sorry but  not the one you mention.

                                 

                                 

                                Cordially

                                 

                                ZBIGniew

                                 


                                From: Michael Kulik [mailto:iteekulik@...]
                                Sent: Mittwoch, 30. März 2005 11:25
                                To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Soviet Memorial

                                 


                                --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com , "Zbigniew Bob Styrna "
                                <styrna@t...> wrote:
                                >
                                > In addition, in Sept 17, 1939, when Russia attacked Poland , those
                                lands had a Polish majority
                                > population.  Not Ukrainian or Ruthenian.  Please see Poland 's
                                Holocaust by Tadeusz Piotrowski page
                                > 14:
                                > Polish                     39.9%
                                > Yiddish & Hebrew            8.4%
                                > Ukranian & Ruthenian        34.4 %
                                > Belorussian & local          14.7%
                                > Russian, Chech, German, other  2.6%
                                >
                                > ZBIG
                                >

                                As ever, statistics can be read in anyone of a number of ways -
                                equally, based on the above information it would be quiet correct for
                                some to say that 60.1% of the population was of non Polish ethnicity.

                                It also depends on what part of Russian Occupied Poland is assessed.
                                For example in Lwow the ethnic Polish population was around 65%, in
                                Wilno it was a little higher.

                                However if you draw a line roughly north to south, from Wilno to
                                Lwow, it is an undeniable fact that ethnic Poles were in the minority
                                east of this line - in some areas as little as 15-20%.

                                Post WWII Poland was the first time that the nation, albeit under
                                Russian occupation, could have been said to have been "entirely
                                Polish" and possibly somewhat poorer for the lack of its diversity.

                                Michael Kulik
                                England.




                                --
                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 30.03.2005


                                --
                                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 30.03.2005

                              • julek2205
                                To all in California and especially So Californians. Time is running out!! Please sign the petition and Please contact by e-mail Ann Simmons and voice your
                                Message 15 of 15 , May 1, 2005
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  To all in California and especially So Californians.
                                  Time is running out!! Please sign the petition and
                                  Please contact by e-mail Ann Simmons and voice your objection to the
                                  monument. I have removed the e-mail addresses of the ladies that
                                  wrote to Ann

                                  -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                                  Från: Simmons, Ann [mailto:Ann.Simmons@...]
                                  Skickat: den 1 maj 2005 03:44
                                  Ämne: re: From LA Times Reporter/Ann M. Simmons

                                  Hello ladies,

                                  Thank you for your response to my prior e-mail, regarding reaction
                                  to the proposed Soviet memorial.

                                  I have since received several responses from petitioners, many of
                                  them outside of California.

                                  Since we are a Los Angeles-based newspaper, we usually like to
                                  localize stories that appear in our Metro/State section.

                                  So, although I will definitely state in my story that there are
                                  people protesting the memorial from all over the country--and the
                                  world--my editor has suggested that I rely primarily on comments
                                  from California residents.

                                  I very much appreciate your cooperation in highlighting this issue.

                                  Sincerely.

                                  Ann M. Simmons
                                  213.237.7179



                                  I talked to Ann Simmons today. She said that she is receiving e-mail
                                  and calls from around the world regarding the monument. She will be
                                  writing an article about this issue but she is not sure if it will
                                  run in the LA times on the day or before the day of the dedication.

                                  She asked if I had any letters from Mr. Prang. I e-mail all that
                                  were directed to me and I also sent a copy of the e-mail that I sent
                                  to Mr. Prang

                                  For your information Ann Simmons is the one who wrote the original
                                  article regarding the monument.

                                  Her e-mail address is

                                  ann.simmons@...

                                  She will not be in her office on Monday. She replied to me April
                                  30th at 9 PM California time.

                                  Julek
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.