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RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: USSR decree regarding citizenship

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  • Zbigniew Bob Styrna
    I have two such ankiety from my two uncles. They both state “forced elections”. In one ankieta these words are used “..Sowieckie wybory..” and
    Message 1 of 109 , Oct 18, 2004
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      Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: USSR decree regarding citizenship

      I have two such ankiety from my two uncles.

       

      They both state “forced elections”.  In one ankieta these words are used “..Sowieckie wybory..” and “…listy wyborczwe..”  My Polish to English dictionary states that „WYBORY” = “Elections”.  It does not say anything about acclimation.

       

      Ankieta states that in “… October 1939,  candidates were chosen by Soviet Citizens, together with residents of Ukrainian Jewish origin…”  I presume that Soviet Citizens were Soviet Soldiers and KGB, etc. as I can’t see that regular Russian civilians had time to emigrate from Russia into eastern Poland that quickly after Sept 17, 1939 invasion.  Unless there were Soviets already living in these villages?  Any ideas?

       

      No where in any of these two, or of the many others I’ve read from Hoover institute does it say about being forced to be a Soviet Citizen.

       

      These ‘ankiety’ define to me , and all the other Polish people that read them, and translate them as forced, mock elections that were held at a point of a gun, and disobeying these Russian orders meant instant “arrests” and ‘deportations’.

       

      I think prior to this Russian voting ‘fiasco” , the Polish citizens were accustomed to  what we call here in the free world, a normal election process where people had free choices and anyone could be a candidate.  Russia/Communists had/have their “own” definition of elections I’m sure. They had no other definition to compare it to. We must remember that in 1939, people did not have TV, Internet surfing, etc.  They did not have instant access to information like we have now.  In fact most of these Polish village farmers, like my relatives,  only had grade 3 education if they were lucky.

       

      My uncles and many others, described in their own words, as best as they could that these were not ‘free “ elections as they were used to.

       

      Who believes that Stalin, after being defeated by the Polish troops in the Polish–Russian war of 1918-1920, would be nice and fair to the Polish citizens he just occupied in 1939?   Like ‘fair elections” ?

       

      Soviet = Russia

       

      Regards

       

      Zbyszek

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Stefan Wisniowski [mailto:swisniowski@...]
      Sent: October 17, 2004 11:48 PM
      To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: USSR decree regarding citizenship

       

      Roman,

      You were right, these were not elections as we understand them in the Western world. However, they did form the basis for claiming that the residents of the Kresy voted to be incorporated in to the USSR and hence become Soviet citizens. However, as you pointed out, these “elections” were not an expression of the popular will. Hence the imposition of citizenship was not legal according to international law as stated by Halina (and rather than argue law between non-lawyers at least we are agreed that it was unconscionable and unjust).

      I appreciate that you can not change your memories. As you pointed out by reference to the ankiety, people can only report their own perceptions of events. I wonder if anyone in the group has any similar memories of a plebiscite on 29-30 October asking “do you want to join the Soviet Union, yes or no?”, or better yet, if anybody knows of any documents describing this event? I have not heard about read about it before, just about the 22 October “elections”.

      As for the Polish government, I stand corrected. I thought you were upset from your comments that they
      abandoned the 400,000 Polish soldiers that surrendered to Germans and that President Moscicki and his Government, by escaping to Rumania on Sept. 17, gave the Soviet Union an excuse they needed to invade Poland to restore order. Perhaps it was still the best thing that could have been done.

      Regards

      --
      Stefan Wisniowski (moderator)
      Sydney, Australia


      ****************************************************************************
      KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
      "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
      deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
      ****************************************************************************
      Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
      Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
      Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
      ****************************************************************************
      To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
      saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
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    • Zbigniew Bob Styrna
      I have two such ankiety from my two uncles. They both state “forced elections”. In one ankieta these words are used “..Sowieckie wybory..” and
      Message 109 of 109 , Oct 18, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: USSR decree regarding citizenship

        I have two such ankiety from my two uncles.

         

        They both state “forced elections”.  In one ankieta these words are used “..Sowieckie wybory..” and “…listy wyborczwe..”  My Polish to English dictionary states that „WYBORY” = “Elections”.  It does not say anything about acclimation.

         

        Ankieta states that in “… October 1939,  candidates were chosen by Soviet Citizens, together with residents of Ukrainian Jewish origin…”  I presume that Soviet Citizens were Soviet Soldiers and KGB, etc. as I can’t see that regular Russian civilians had time to emigrate from Russia into eastern Poland that quickly after Sept 17, 1939 invasion.  Unless there were Soviets already living in these villages?  Any ideas?

         

        No where in any of these two, or of the many others I’ve read from Hoover institute does it say about being forced to be a Soviet Citizen.

         

        These ‘ankiety’ define to me , and all the other Polish people that read them, and translate them as forced, mock elections that were held at a point of a gun, and disobeying these Russian orders meant instant “arrests” and ‘deportations’.

         

        I think prior to this Russian voting ‘fiasco” , the Polish citizens were accustomed to  what we call here in the free world, a normal election process where people had free choices and anyone could be a candidate.  Russia/Communists had/have their “own” definition of elections I’m sure. They had no other definition to compare it to. We must remember that in 1939, people did not have TV, Internet surfing, etc.  They did not have instant access to information like we have now.  In fact most of these Polish village farmers, like my relatives,  only had grade 3 education if they were lucky.

         

        My uncles and many others, described in their own words, as best as they could that these were not ‘free “ elections as they were used to.

         

        Who believes that Stalin, after being defeated by the Polish troops in the Polish–Russian war of 1918-1920, would be nice and fair to the Polish citizens he just occupied in 1939?   Like ‘fair elections” ?

         

        Soviet = Russia

         

        Regards

         

        Zbyszek

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Stefan Wisniowski [mailto:swisniowski@...]
        Sent: October 17, 2004 11:48 PM
        To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: USSR decree regarding citizenship

         

        Roman,

        You were right, these were not elections as we understand them in the Western world. However, they did form the basis for claiming that the residents of the Kresy voted to be incorporated in to the USSR and hence become Soviet citizens. However, as you pointed out, these “elections” were not an expression of the popular will. Hence the imposition of citizenship was not legal according to international law as stated by Halina (and rather than argue law between non-lawyers at least we are agreed that it was unconscionable and unjust).

        I appreciate that you can not change your memories. As you pointed out by reference to the ankiety, people can only report their own perceptions of events. I wonder if anyone in the group has any similar memories of a plebiscite on 29-30 October asking “do you want to join the Soviet Union, yes or no?”, or better yet, if anybody knows of any documents describing this event? I have not heard about read about it before, just about the 22 October “elections”.

        As for the Polish government, I stand corrected. I thought you were upset from your comments that they
        abandoned the 400,000 Polish soldiers that surrendered to Germans and that President Moscicki and his Government, by escaping to Rumania on Sept. 17, gave the Soviet Union an excuse they needed to invade Poland to restore order. Perhaps it was still the best thing that could have been done.

        Regards

        --
        Stefan Wisniowski (moderator)
        Sydney, Australia


        ****************************************************************************
        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        ****************************************************************************
        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
        Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
        ****************************************************************************
        To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
        saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
        Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
        ****************************************************************************




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