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Greetings!

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  • thomas bert
    Greetings Kastoff, First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking that I enjoy reading
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
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      Greetings Kastoff,


      First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
      used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
      that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
      started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
      the people and events.

      I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
      had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
      seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
      in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
      Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
      check and see if I can get them at my local library.

      Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
      I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
      minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
      the best in all that you do. Thanks.



      With Respect,
      Thomas


      Bellum Est Pater Omnium











      To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
      From: cogworks@...
      Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
      Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

       
      Thomas,
      As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

      Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

      Welcome,
      Kastoff

      --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hello
      >
      > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
      > can join this group of yours. I know that it
      > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
      >
      > I have always loved military history as far back
      > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
      > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
      > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
      > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
      > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
      > is this has always been a passion.
      >
      > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
      > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
      > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
      > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
      > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
      > for any help that I could get.
      >
      > I know that my interests are spanning a many
      > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
      > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
      > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
      > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
      > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
      >
      > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
      > I will probably have many questions but I would love
      > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
      > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
      > letting me join.
      >
      >
      > With Respect,
      > Thomas
      >


    • thomas bert
      Hi Sandee, I hope that I got your name right. Ken Follet must write some great books since he comes so highly recommended. Since they are basically new my
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
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        Hi Sandee,


        I hope that I got your name right. Ken Follet must write some
        great books since he comes so highly recommended. Since
        they are basically new my local library will have a pretty long
        wait. Patience has never been my strong suit. I looked at
        them from Amazon and they are only about $6 so I just might
        pick them up. I thank you for bringing a second book to my
        attention.


        With Respect,
        Thomas


        "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"






        To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
        From: sandeehar@...
        Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:51:23 -0400
        Subject: Re: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

         

        Hi Thomas,
        The Pillars of the Earth is an incredible book.
        There is a sequel that Ken Follet wrote called - World Without End.  It's good but not as good as the first one.
        Ken Follet writes a good book, but it is long...about 900 pages and a page turner.

        On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Ares <tbe4u@...> wrote:
         

        Hello

        Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
        can join this group of yours. I know that it
        is not large but that not not mean poor quality.

        I have always loved military history as far back
        as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
        of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
        eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
        in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
        thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
        is this has always been a passion.

        I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
        about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
        I have to read things twelve times in order for it
        to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
        guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
        for any help that I could get.

        I know that my interests are spanning a many
        centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
        I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
        English history anything from King Alfred the Great
        to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
        to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.

        Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
        I will probably have many questions but I would love
        to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
        this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
        letting me join.

        With Respect,
        Thomas




      • thomas bert
        Hello!! I want to real quick thank the group for the help and very warm welcome. I look forward to allot of interesting and friendly posts and to making some
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
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          Hello!!


          I want to real quick thank the group for the help and very
          warm welcome. I look forward to allot of interesting and
          friendly posts and to making some new friends.




          Gratefully,
          Thomas



          "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"































           






          Hi Sandee,


          I hope that I got your name right. Ken Follet must write some
          great books since he comes so highly recommended. Since
          they are basically new my local library will have a pretty long
          wait. Patience has never been my strong suit. I looked at
          them from Amazon and they are only about $6 so I just might
          pick them up. I thank you for bringing a second book to my
          attention.


          With Respect,
          Thomas


          "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"






          To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
          From: sandeehar@...
          Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:51:23 -0400
          Subject: Re: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

           

          Hi Thomas,
          The Pillars of the Earth is an incredible book.
          There is a sequel that Ken Follet wrote called - World Without End.  It's good but not as good as the first one.
          Ken Follet writes a good book, but it is long...about 900 pages and a page turner.

          On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Ares <tbe4u@...> wrote:
           

          Hello

          Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
          can join this group of yours. I know that it
          is not large but that not not mean poor quality.

          I have always loved military history as far back
          as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
          of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
          eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
          in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
          thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
          is this has always been a passion.

          I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
          about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
          I have to read things twelve times in order for it
          to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
          guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
          for any help that I could get.

          I know that my interests are spanning a many
          centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
          I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
          English history anything from King Alfred the Great
          to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
          to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.

          Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
          I will probably have many questions but I would love
          to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
          this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
          letting me join.

          With Respect,
          Thomas





        • John Atkins
          Thomas, I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events. In the case of Cornwell he
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Message
            Thomas,
            I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events.  In the case of Cornwell he actually notes in the back of his books what parts are based on true history and what parts are fictional to fill out the story.  The most common comment I've heard about this books is that he does seem to have a fascination with the raping pillaging thing.  His battle scenes are not as gory as Stalone's movies but reasonably accurate.  I have also read a series on the Mongols, their culture and their leaders.  Interesting stuff as they came up to the Danube in Europe but never crossed it for a variety of internal rasons.  The Vienesse aristocracy was fascinated by them and adopted much of their dress and armory "just for the novelty" of it.  Kinda like Marie Antoinette wearing cakes in her hair to honor the starving masses (I think it was her).
             
            As you re in Michigan look up a Yahoo group called MicPAC for Michigan Primative Archery Club.  They have recently renamed the group to Living History Archery Club.  Obviously their main focus is archery.  But they should by closer to you.
             
            kog
            -----Original Message-----
            From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
            Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:42 AM
            To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

             






            Greetings Kastoff,


            First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
            used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
            that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
            started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
            the people and events.

            I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
            had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
            seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
            in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
            Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
            check and see if I can get them at my local library.

            Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
            I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
            minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
            the best in all that you do. Thanks.



            With Respect,
            Thomas


            Bellum Est Pater Omnium











            To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
            From: cogworks@...
            Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
            Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

             
            Thomas,
            As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

            Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

            Welcome,
            Kastoff

            --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hello
            >
            > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
            > can join this group of yours. I know that it
            > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
            >
            > I have always loved military history as far back
            > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
            > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
            > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
            > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
            > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
            > is this has always been a passion.
            >
            > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
            > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
            > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
            > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
            > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
            > for any help that I could get.
            >
            > I know that my interests are spanning a many
            > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
            > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
            > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
            > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
            > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
            >
            > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
            > I will probably have many questions but I would love
            > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
            > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
            > letting me join.
            >
            >
            > With Respect,
            > Thomas
            >


          • thomas bert
            Greetings Yes I would agree that more modern authors are at least trying to get there facts straight. I understand that they have poetic license. I also know
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
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              Greetings


              Yes I would agree that more modern authors are at least
              trying to get there facts straight. I understand that they have
              poetic license. I also know that there a wholes in history
              that we have not uncovered yet.

              I must admit though that archery is interesting and is worth
              study but for some reason it does not exactly suit me. As for
              the Michigan Yahoo group goes I was a member a long
              time ago. The reason I am not is because I did not and do not
              have the money or skills to really be able to participate. Maybe
              I can try again and explain the situation and they will let me
              eavesdrop a wee bit. I originally joined just to get a more full
              view of the past. I am thankful for the help.


              With much respect,
              Thomas


              "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"




               

              Thomas,
              I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events.  In the case of Cornwell he actually notes in the back of his books what parts are based on true history and what parts are fictional to fill out the story.  The most common comment I've heard about this books is that he does seem to have a fascination with the raping pillaging thing.  His battle scenes are not as gory as Stalone's movies but reasonably accurate.  I have also read a series on the Mongols, their culture and their leaders.  Interesting stuff as they came up to the Danube in Europe but never crossed it for a variety of internal rasons.  The Vienesse aristocracy was fascinated by them and adopted much of their dress and armory "just for the novelty" of it.  Kinda like Marie Antoinette wearing cakes in her hair to honor the starving masses (I think it was her).
               
              As you re in Michigan look up a Yahoo group called MicPAC for Michigan Primative Archery Club.  They have recently renamed the group to Living History Archery Club.  Obviously their main focus is archery.  But they should by closer to you.
               
              kog
              -----Original Message-----
              From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
              Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:42 AM
              To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

               






              Greetings Kastoff,


              First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
              used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
              that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
              started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
              the people and events.

              I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
              had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
              seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
              in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
              Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
              check and see if I can get them at my local library.

              Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
              I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
              minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
              the best in all that you do. Thanks.



              With Respect,
              Thomas


              Bellum Est Pater Omnium











              To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
              From: cogworks@...
              Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
              Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

               
              Thomas,
              As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

              Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

              Welcome,
              Kastoff

              --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hello
              >
              > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
              > can join this group of yours. I know that it
              > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
              >
              > I have always loved military history as far back
              > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
              > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
              > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
              > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
              > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
              > is this has always been a passion.
              >
              > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
              > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
              > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
              > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
              > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
              > for any help that I could get.
              >
              > I know that my interests are spanning a many
              > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
              > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
              > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
              > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
              > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
              >
              > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
              > I will probably have many questions but I would love
              > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
              > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
              > letting me join.
              >
              >
              > With Respect,
              > Thomas
              >




            • thomas bert
              Hi Since we have mentioned archery I do have a couple of questions. One is that I had seen a programme about medieval archery I believe it for the Battle of
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
              • 0 Attachment





                Hi


                Since we have mentioned archery I do have a couple
                of questions. One is that I had seen a programme about
                medieval archery I believe it for the Battle of Agincourt.
                Anyway they came to the conclusion after walking the
                battlefield and tests that an arrow of the period could not
                penetrate the armour. They said that it would only have
                an effect if the arrows made it in between the spaces in
                a suit or if they hit the horse. I would love to know your
                thoughts on this.

                Along the same lines I know that a crossbow took longer
                to fire than the longbow but they had much more force.
                If they could get enough crossbowmen together to offset
                the time difference and there tower shields is that the
                reason that they were banned on several occasions and
                there popularity lasted until the 15th century? I know
                though that it was looked upon as a scourge and that it
                was not "worthy" of a nobleman

                I hope this post made some sense. I thank you for the
                time.


                All the best,
                Thomas


                "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"


















                 

                Thomas,
                I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events.  In the case of Cornwell he actually notes in the back of his books what parts are based on true history and what parts are fictional to fill out the story.  The most common comment I've heard about this books is that he does seem to have a fascination with the raping pillaging thing.  His battle scenes are not as gory as Stalone's movies but reasonably accurate.  I have also read a series on the Mongols, their culture and their leaders.  Interesting stuff as they came up to the Danube in Europe but never crossed it for a variety of internal rasons.  The Vienesse aristocracy was fascinated by them and adopted much of their dress and armory "just for the novelty" of it.  Kinda like Marie Antoinette wearing cakes in her hair to honor the starving masses (I think it was her).
                 
                As you re in Michigan look up a Yahoo group called MicPAC for Michigan Primative Archery Club.  They have recently renamed the group to Living History Archery Club.  Obviously their main focus is archery.  But they should by closer to you.
                 
                kog


                 






                Greetings Kastoff,


                First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
                used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
                that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
                started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
                the people and events.

                I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
                had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
                seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
                in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
                Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
                check and see if I can get them at my local library.

                Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
                I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
                minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
                the best in all that you do. Thanks.



                With Respect,
                Thomas


                Bellum Est Pater Omnium











                To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                From: cogworks@...
                Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
                Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

                 
                Thomas,
                As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

                Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

                Welcome,
                Kastoff

                --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hello
                >
                > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                >
                > I have always loved military history as far back
                > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                > is this has always been a passion.
                >
                > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                > for any help that I could get.
                >
                > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                >
                > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                > letting me join.
                >
                >
                > With Respect,
                > Thomas
                >





              • John Atkins
                Thomas, Welcome to the morass concerning archery. I use the word morass due to the many existing and perpetuating myths about archery. So let me give you my
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Message
                  Thomas,
                  Welcome to the morass concerning archery.  I use the word morass due to the many existing and perpetuating myths about archery.  So let me give you my take (researched as well) on the topics you've touched.
                   
                  First - was archery effective against armor?  Absolutely.  But let's consider that.  First off a suit of armor in period costs about a much as a top of the line Mercedes does today.  Like today and the Mercedes, not many could afford armor.  The best armor was Milanese armor.  It could withstand an arrow.  However very few could afford this armor as it was more along the lines of a Bentley (staying with my automobile analogy).  The most common plate armor was soft and arrows could penetrate.  Not very deep, but consider a fighter with 20 or 30 arrows stuck in his armor penetrating about 1 - 3 inches.  Kinda ruins their day.  Those who did not wear plate armor, and this was most, wore leather, chain mail, or padded jerkins.  Chain mail is useless against arrows.  In fact the arrow splits the rings and drives them into the wound thereby increasing the resultant infection.  Padding is not effective either.  Interestingly enough the best armor against arrows was a deer skin jerkin over 18 layers of linen.  Seems the deer skin, being very soft, wraps around the arrow point converting it into a blunt.  The 18 layers of linen act as the padding.  Of course the wearer would most likely receive a broken rib from the blow but no penetration.  Somewhere I have a very well researched and tested article discussing this whole topic.
                   
                  Armor or not, if you read reasonably accurate accounts of the battles of the 100 years wars you quickly learn that fighting in plate armor is very hot.  The fighters would, at some point, raise their face shields.  The English archers were very skilled and would simply shoot for the face.  Ask King Harold at the battle of Hastings how accurately they could shoot!
                   
                  There exists a myth today that the English longbow or war bow had a pull of 100 to about 180 pounds.  True enough.  The myth is that the 120 pound bow is not as powerful as the 180 pound bow.  Seems, again through modern testing of replicas made along the lines of and patterned after bows found on the Merry Rose, that the energy delivered difference between a 120 pound bow and a 180 pound bow is not that significant.  There are a whole bunch of reasons why this is the case and they all relate the the amazing mechanics and physics of how a bow works but the net result is that a war bow was about 120 to 180 pound pull.  Now if you think about that for a moment, the strength required to pull a bow of that poundage is significant.  My heaviest bow is 49 pounds and I can shoot it all day long...........now, but not when I first started archery.  I have attempted to shoot a 90 pound English Longbow.  Attempted......  I couldn't pull it back and hold it long enough to aim.  Archers in period were typically some of the strongest and biggest men on the battle field.
                   
                  Now as for tactics, archers were very clever.  Often they would stand to the side of the men-at-arms or battle field.  As the Calvary charged, the archers would shoot the horse's rumps.  The horses would rear up throwing their riders on the ground.  Then the archers and men-at-arms would run out and kill the grounded knights and former riders.  Highly effective.
                   
                  Cross bows are much easier to use than an English Longbow.  An ELB would take years to become proficient with.  A cross bow takes a month or so.  Early cross bows were not as powerful as the ELB.  Yes they had higher poundage prods but they simply could not shoot as far at ELBs.  As the cross bow technology improved they became more powerful and could out shoot ELBs.  The rate of fire from an ELB was about 10 - 12 shafts per minute.  Cross bows were about half that.  Cross bows that had to be cranked, i.e. very high powered cross bows, even less.
                   
                  In England it was king's order than all males 7 years old or older must practice at the butts every Sunday after church.  Thus the English had an effective standing army of skilled archers.  The French were afraid of arming the peasants and thus did not promote their use of weapons much less bows.  The French hired mercenaries, usually Genoese cross bowmen to fight with them.  As the mercenaries were just that, fighting for money, they didn't have the "buy in" that the English did.  Their weapons were also not at powerful or effective as the English.  Plus it was not uncommon for the "French nobility" to ride down their own archers in battle.  French nobility had a serious distain for archers and use of the bow.  A Sir Jon in the SCA has just written an excellent, very well researched paper on the subject of nobility using the bow.  It is a myth that nobility never used the bow in battle but it is accurate that French nobility had a distain for it.  They did not consider the bow a weapon suitable for a nobleman to use.  What I find interesting is that a knight was allowed to flee the field of battle but if an archer did, they were often beheaded by their very knights who fled the field before them!  That's some real knightly nobility for ya!
                   
                  English use of the bow is what turned the tide of many a battle.  During the 100 year's war the English choose positions that forced the impatient French nights to charge them from a position of lesser advantage.  The English bowmen opened most battles with volleys of arrows.  Like in the movie Brave Heart if an English bowman could loose 10 arrows a minute and there were 5 - 7 thousand bowmen, that equates to 50 - 70 thousand arrows per minute falling on the enemy's position.  If it didn't kill them it sure did "take the snuff" out of them.  Many accounts remark about the disheartening effect of the "steel rain".
                   
                  The English Longbow, ELB, was a marvel of technology.  The preferred wood was yew although they also used hickory, ash and some other woods.  The yew staves were cut so they include some heart wood and some sap wood giving the bow a laminated appearance.  I forget which does what but one wood resists stretching and the other resists compression.  Thus, like a modern laminated bow, there were two layers that worked against each other resulting in the bow storing huge amounts of energy that was delivered to the arrow upon release of the string.  The Mongolian or horse bows were made out of horn, antler and rawhide.  Horse bows took up to seven years to build while the ELB took about one month.  Again the mechanics of how a bow works are really fascinating and only recently really understood.  Bowyers in period knew what made a good bow but most likely not the physics of why.
                   
                  And I haven't even gotten into the arrows or points used..........  Obviously I have a passion for this aspect of history.
                   
                  kog
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                  Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:45 PM
                  To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

                   






                  Hi


                  Since we have mentioned archery I do have a couple
                  of questions. One is that I had seen a programme about
                  medieval archery I believe it for the Battle of Agincourt.
                  Anyway they came to the conclusion after walking the
                  battlefield and tests that an arrow of the period could not
                  penetrate the armour. They said that it would only have
                  an effect if the arrows made it in between the spaces in
                  a suit or if they hit the horse. I would love to know your
                  thoughts on this.

                  Along the same lines I know that a crossbow took longer
                  to fire than the longbow but they had much more force.
                  If they could get enough crossbowmen together to offset
                  the time difference and there tower shields is that the
                  reason that they were banned on several occasions and
                  there popularity lasted until the 15th century? I know
                  though that it was looked upon as a scourge and that it
                  was not "worthy" of a nobleman

                  I hope this post made some sense. I thank you for the
                  time.


                  All the best,
                  Thomas


                  "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"


















                   

                  Thomas,
                  I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events.  In the case of Cornwell he actually notes in the back of his books what parts are based on true history and what parts are fictional to fill out the story.  The most common comment I've heard about this books is that he does seem to have a fascination with the raping pillaging thing.  His battle scenes are not as gory as Stalone's movies but reasonably accurate.  I have also read a series on the Mongols, their culture and their leaders.  Interesting stuff as they came up to the Danube in Europe but never crossed it for a variety of internal rasons.  The Vienesse aristocracy was fascinated by them and adopted much of their dress and armory "just for the novelty" of it.  Kinda like Marie Antoinette wearing cakes in her hair to honor the starving masses (I think it was her).
                   
                  As you re in Michigan look up a Yahoo group called MicPAC for Michigan Primative Archery Club.  They have recently renamed the group to Living History Archery Club.  Obviously their main focus is archery.  But they should by closer to you.
                   
                  kog


                   






                  Greetings Kastoff,


                  First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
                  used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
                  that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
                  started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
                  the people and events.

                  I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
                  had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
                  seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
                  in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
                  Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
                  check and see if I can get them at my local library.

                  Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
                  I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
                  minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
                  the best in all that you do. Thanks.



                  With Respect,
                  Thomas


                  Bellum Est Pater Omnium











                  To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                  From: cogworks@...
                  Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
                  Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

                   
                  Thomas,
                  As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

                  Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

                  Welcome,
                  Kastoff

                  --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello
                  >
                  > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                  > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                  > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                  >
                  > I have always loved military history as far back
                  > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                  > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                  > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                  > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                  > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                  > is this has always been a passion.
                  >
                  > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                  > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                  > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                  > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                  > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                  > for any help that I could get.
                  >
                  > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                  > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                  > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                  > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                  > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                  > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                  >
                  > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                  > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                  > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                  > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                  > letting me join.
                  >
                  >
                  > With Respect,
                  > Thomas
                  >





                • thomas bert
                  Hello, Wow! I am impressed. You really do know you stuff. Your information has more than answered my novice questions. I am going to save your posts so that I
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment







                    Hello,


                    Wow! I am impressed. You really do know you stuff. Your
                    information has more than answered my novice questions.
                    I am going to save your posts so that I have a good reference
                    source. Since you did so well maybe I could ask a question
                    or two in areas that you touched on.

                    The first one is you mentioned that arrows could not go through
                    the deerskin jerkin because of the give in it to blunt the arrow.
                    So somewhere I read that during the crusades it was not unusual
                    for knight to look like porcupines because of all the arrows were not
                    being able to penetrate and do much damage. I know that the enemy
                    did not use the English longbow but a smaller one that ones not
                    drawn all the way back. Is any of this accurate?

                    The second question is the term "English longbow" I know that the
                    English of course used it to good effect but again I read somewhere
                    that the longbow was originally Welsh. Could you shed some light
                    on this? Again I thank you.



                    Best Wishes,
                    Thomas



                    "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"

















                     

                    Thomas,
                    Welcome to the morass concerning archery.  I use the word morass due to the many existing and perpetuating myths about archery.  So let me give you my take (researched as well) on the topics you've touched.
                     
                    First - was archery effective against armor?  Absolutely.  But let's consider that.  First off a suit of armor in period costs about a much as a top of the line Mercedes does today.  Like today and the Mercedes, not many could afford armor.  The best armor was Milanese armor.  It could withstand an arrow.  However very few could afford this armor as it was more along the lines of a Bentley (staying with my automobile analogy).  The most common plate armor was soft and arrows could penetrate.  Not very deep, but consider a fighter with 20 or 30 arrows stuck in his armor penetrating about 1 - 3 inches.  Kinda ruins their day.  Those who did not wear plate armor, and this was most, wore leather, chain mail, or padded jerkins.  Chain mail is useless against arrows.  In fact the arrow splits the rings and drives them into the wound thereby increasing the resultant infection.  Padding is not effective either.  Interestingly enough the best armor against arrows was a deer skin jerkin over 18 layers of linen.  Seems the deer skin, being very soft, wraps around the arrow point converting it into a blunt.  The 18 layers of linen act as the padding.  Of course the wearer would most likely receive a broken rib from the blow but no penetration.  Somewhere I have a very well researched and tested article discussing this whole topic.
                     
                    Armor or not, if you read reasonably accurate accounts of the battles of the 100 years wars you quickly learn that fighting in plate armor is very hot.  The fighters would, at some point, raise their face shields.  The English archers were very skilled and would simply shoot for the face.  Ask King Harold at the battle of Hastings how accurately they could shoot!
                     
                    There exists a myth today that the English longbow or war bow had a pull of 100 to about 180 pounds.  True enough.  The myth is that the 120 pound bow is not as powerful as the 180 pound bow.  Seems, again through modern testing of replicas made along the lines of and patterned after bows found on the Merry Rose, that the energy delivered difference between a 120 pound bow and a 180 pound bow is not that significant.  There are a whole bunch of reasons why this is the case and they all relate the the amazing mechanics and physics of how a bow works but the net result is that a war bow was about 120 to 180 pound pull.  Now if you think about that for a moment, the strength required to pull a bow of that poundage is significant.  My heaviest bow is 49 pounds and I can shoot it all day long...........now, but not when I first started archery.  I have attempted to shoot a 90 pound English Longbow.  Attempted......  I couldn't pull it back and hold it long enough to aim.  Archers in period were typically some of the strongest and biggest men on the battle field.
                     
                    Now as for tactics, archers were very clever.  Often they would stand to the side of the men-at-arms or battle field.  As the Calvary charged, the archers would shoot the horse's rumps.  The horses would rear up throwing their riders on the ground.  Then the archers and men-at-arms would run out and kill the grounded knights and former riders.  Highly effective.
                     
                    Cross bows are much easier to use than an English Longbow.  An ELB would take years to become proficient with.  A cross bow takes a month or so.  Early cross bows were not as powerful as the ELB.  Yes they had higher poundage prods but they simply could not shoot as far at ELBs.  As the cross bow technology improved they became more powerful and could out shoot ELBs.  The rate of fire from an ELB was about 10 - 12 shafts per minute.  Cross bows were about half that.  Cross bows that had to be cranked, i.e. very high powered cross bows, even less.
                     
                    In England it was king's order than all males 7 years old or older must practice at the butts every Sunday after church.  Thus the English had an effective standing army of skilled archers.  The French were afraid of arming the peasants and thus did not promote their use of weapons much less bows.  The French hired mercenaries, usually Genoese cross bowmen to fight with them.  As the mercenaries were just that, fighting for money, they didn't have the "buy in" that the English did.  Their weapons were also not at powerful or effective as the English.  Plus it was not uncommon for the "French nobility" to ride down their own archers in battle.  French nobility had a serious distain for archers and use of the bow.  A Sir Jon in the SCA has just written an excellent, very well researched paper on the subject of nobility using the bow.  It is a myth that nobility never used the bow in battle but it is accurate that French nobility had a distain for it.  They did not consider the bow a weapon suitable for a nobleman to use.  What I find interesting is that a knight was allowed to flee the field of battle but if an archer did, they were often beheaded by their very knights who fled the field before them!  That's some real knightly nobility for ya!
                     
                    English use of the bow is what turned the tide of many a battle.  During the 100 year's war the English choose positions that forced the impatient French nights to charge them from a position of lesser advantage.  The English bowmen opened most battles with volleys of arrows.  Like in the movie Brave Heart if an English bowman could loose 10 arrows a minute and there were 5 - 7 thousand bowmen, that equates to 50 - 70 thousand arrows per minute falling on the enemy's position.  If it didn't kill them it sure did "take the snuff" out of them.  Many accounts remark about the disheartening effect of the "steel rain".
                     
                    The English Longbow, ELB, was a marvel of technology.  The preferred wood was yew although they also used hickory, ash and some other woods.  The yew staves were cut so they include some heart wood and some sap wood giving the bow a laminated appearance.  I forget which does what but one wood resists stretching and the other resists compression.  Thus, like a modern laminated bow, there were two layers that worked against each other resulting in the bow storing huge amounts of energy that was delivered to the arrow upon release of the string.  The Mongolian or horse bows were made out of horn, antler and rawhide.  Horse bows took up to seven years to build while the ELB took about one month.  Again the mechanics of how a bow works are really fascinating and only recently really understood.  Bowyers in period knew what made a good bow but most likely not the physics of why.
                     
                    And I haven't even gotten into the arrows or points used..........  Obviously I have a passion for this aspect of history.
                     
                    kog
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                    Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:45 PM
                    To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

                     






                    Hi


                    Since we have mentioned archery I do have a couple
                    of questions. One is that I had seen a programme about
                    medieval archery I believe it for the Battle of Agincourt.
                    Anyway they came to the conclusion after walking the
                    battlefield and tests that an arrow of the period could not
                    penetrate the armour. They said that it would only have
                    an effect if the arrows made it in between the spaces in
                    a suit or if they hit the horse. I would love to know your
                    thoughts on this.

                    Along the same lines I know that a crossbow took longer
                    to fire than the longbow but they had much more force.
                    If they could get enough crossbowmen together to offset
                    the time difference and there tower shields is that the
                    reason that they were banned on several occasions and
                    there popularity lasted until the 15th century? I know
                    though that it was looked upon as a scourge and that it
                    was not "worthy" of a nobleman

                    I hope this post made some sense. I thank you for the
                    time.


                    All the best,
                    Thomas


                    "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"


















                     

                    Thomas,
                    I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events.  In the case of Cornwell he actually notes in the back of his books what parts are based on true history and what parts are fictional to fill out the story.  The most common comment I've heard about this books is that he does seem to have a fascination with the raping pillaging thing.  His battle scenes are not as gory as Stalone's movies but reasonably accurate.  I have also read a series on the Mongols, their culture and their leaders.  Interesting stuff as they came up to the Danube in Europe but never crossed it for a variety of internal rasons.  The Vienesse aristocracy was fascinated by them and adopted much of their dress and armory "just for the novelty" of it.  Kinda like Marie Antoinette wearing cakes in her hair to honor the starving masses (I think it was her).
                     
                    As you re in Michigan look up a Yahoo group called MicPAC for Michigan Primative Archery Club.  They have recently renamed the group to Living History Archery Club.  Obviously their main focus is archery.  But they should by closer to you.
                     
                    kog


                     






                    Greetings Kastoff,


                    First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
                    used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
                    that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
                    started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
                    the people and events.

                    I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
                    had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
                    seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
                    in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
                    Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
                    check and see if I can get them at my local library.

                    Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
                    I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
                    minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
                    the best in all that you do. Thanks.



                    With Respect,
                    Thomas


                    Bellum Est Pater Omnium











                    To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                    From: cogworks@...
                    Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
                    Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

                     
                    Thomas,
                    As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

                    Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

                    Welcome,
                    Kastoff

                    --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello
                    >
                    > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                    > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                    > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                    >
                    > I have always loved military history as far back
                    > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                    > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                    > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                    > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                    > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                    > is this has always been a passion.
                    >
                    > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                    > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                    > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                    > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                    > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                    > for any help that I could get.
                    >
                    > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                    > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                    > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                    > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                    > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                    > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                    >
                    > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                    > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                    > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                    > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                    > letting me join.
                    >
                    >
                    > With Respect,
                    > Thomas
                    >







                  • John Atkins
                    Thomas, Slight correction - a deer skin jerkin does not blunt the arrow but rather the deer skin wraps around the arrow point turning it into a blunt. The
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 20, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Message
                      Thomas,
                      Slight correction -  a deer skin jerkin does not blunt the arrow but rather the deer skin wraps around the arrow point turning it into a blunt.  The metal tip remains pointed.  This is a particular characteristics of deer skin leather that only elk shares (to my personal knowledge).  These skins tend to have a slight "rubbery" texture to them in that they stretch quite a bit without ripping and are suprisingly tough for their thickness.  They also have a slight sticky nature to them in that things do not slide off them as easy as with cow hide.  Now part of that is due to the tanning process which is different than how cow hide is tanned, but a large part of it is due simply to the nature of the skin/hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned leather is stiffer, slightly water repellent and usually drum dyed to specific colors.  As chrome tanning requires a knowledge of chromium salts I think it highly unlikely that chrome tanning was used in period.
                       
                      As for knights looking like porcupines that could be due to the leather jerkin effect or from needle nose bodkin arrows piercing the softer plate armor.
                       
                      Now as for the bow used by the Saracins I would think their bow of choice would more closely resemble a horse or Mongolian bow.  As such, and due to the structure and physics of that type of bow, even though they are shorter they are actually more powerful.  The distance record for shooting an arrow was set by a Mongolian Khan and only recently broken, something like 1980's.  Horse bows are severe recurve bows with large limbs tips called syhas.  Consequently the power curve of these bows is like the power curve of a modern recurve bow.  In constrast is you plot the energy delivered to the arrow from a true longbow it is basically a straight inclined (going up) line).  In the case of a recurve (horse bows) it is a curved line with the energy delivered to the arrow radically increasing towards the end of the string's return.  This is due to how the bow works.  Let's say you have a horse bow that is 50 inch limb tip to limb tip (where the string attaches to the limbs) with a 40 pound draw.  As you start your draw you are actually pulling a 40 pound bow that is about 40 inches long.  This due to the fact that the string is still laying on the libm tips/syhas.  As you increase your draw ultimately the libm tips/syhas begin to lean back increasing the draw length of the bow and reducing the amount of energy required to pull the string back.  This is the exact same property modern compound bows use but with wheels and pulleys.  When the string is released this entire process reverses resulting in the dramatic increase of power towards the end of the power curve.  Thus a 40 pound horse bow actually shoots more like a 50 or 55 pound longbow, thinking in terms of arc of arrow, i.e. flatter line of trajectory.  Now in addition, due to the large syhas and the extreme recurving of a horse bow it can actually be oever drawn.  Modern bows are marked XX poundage at 28 inches.  That is if you draw the bow back 28 inches it will take XX pounds to do so.  Modern longbows are actually built for certain draw lengths and if you over draw the bows they will break.  In the case of horse bows they are typically shorter bows, 50 - 55 inch, but are designed to be drawn to the rear shoulder.  If you did this with a longbow you would over draw the bow and break it. 
                       
                      Here's what is happening technically.  Picture the limb tip and the string.  At rest there is a flat angle between the limb and the string.  As you draw the bow that angle increase.  Once the string is 90 degrees to the limb tip you have reached the maximum length you can draw that bow and that's call the stacking point or where the bow stacks.  This means if you continue to pull back it takes increasing amounts of energy to do so with no increase in energy to the arrow on release.  In the case of horse bows this stacking point is not reasched until a draw length of somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 inches or more.  So I guess if you can tie your shoes without bending over you could over draw a horse bow.
                       
                      Now the next issue is how the string is held.  Mediteranian stryle which the English used is to hold the string with either two or three fingers.  Usually one over and one or two under, sometimes all two or three under the arrow.  The arrow is on the left side of the bow for a right handed shooter.  A right handed shooter draws with the right hand and holds the bow in the left.  With a horse bow the draw is with the thumb.  Not mandatory but that is how the bow was used in period and still today by some and all throughout Mongolia.  The arrow is on the right side of the bow and rests on the bow hand thumb.  These bows are called horse bows because they were used with deadly effect by the Mongols from horse back.  So think of using a really long bow, i.e. ELB which were often 6 feet long, on horse back.
                       
                      So all this says that ever thought Saracins were using shorter bows, they were most likely drawing them farther back that the ELB/longbow users and using bows more powerful.
                       
                      The ELB is more of a modern term for the style of bow.  In period the English called the war bows.  You are correct in that it was thw Welsh who taught the English kings the usefullness of a bow in battle.  However Welsh bows were what we call flat bows.  A ture ELB has a D cross section with the flat part of the D facing the archer and the rounded belly away from them.  A flat bow is just that, flat on both sides.  Modern longbows are made this way.  Thw Welsh bow was actually a hunting weapon but the clever Wlesh figured if it could take down a deer it could most likely take down and Englishman and it did!
                       
                      Other European cultures used bows to effect as well.  The Vikings used bows in their ship battles.  Their bows were small short bows that were short drawn.  The whole effect here was to lob arrows into the other ship to "soften up" the enemy before boarding.  Assyrians used bows to hunt lions and their bows were shorter forerunners of the horse bow.
                       
                      For some interesting history on the types of horse bows go to horsebows.com .  The vendor Ed has done a good job of write up about the bow history.  Another one is Flagella Dei.  This is a Hungarian bowyer.
                       
                      kog
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                      Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:03 PM
                      To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                       








                      Hello,


                      Wow! I am impressed. You really do know you stuff. Your
                      information has more than answered my novice questions.
                      I am going to save your posts so that I have a good reference
                      source. Since you did so well maybe I could ask a question
                      or two in areas that you touched on.

                      The first one is you mentioned that arrows could not go through
                      the deerskin jerkin because of the give in it to blunt the arrow.
                      So somewhere I read that during the crusades it was not unusual
                      for knight to look like porcupines because of all the arrows were not
                      being able to penetrate and do much damage. I know that the enemy
                      did not use the English longbow but a smaller one that ones not
                      drawn all the way back. Is any of this accurate?

                      The second question is the term "English longbow" I know that the
                      English of course used it to good effect but again I read somewhere
                      that the longbow was originally Welsh. Could you shed some light
                      on this? Again I thank you.



                      Best Wishes,
                      Thomas



                      "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"

















                       

                      Thomas,
                      Welcome to the morass concerning archery.  I use the word morass due to the many existing and perpetuating myths about archery.  So let me give you my take (researched as well) on the topics you've touched.
                       
                      First - was archery effective against armor?  Absolutely.  But let's consider that.  First off a suit of armor in period costs about a much as a top of the line Mercedes does today.  Like today and the Mercedes, not many could afford armor.  The best armor was Milanese armor.  It could withstand an arrow.  However very few could afford this armor as it was more along the lines of a Bentley (staying with my automobile analogy).  The most common plate armor was soft and arrows could penetrate.  Not very deep, but consider a fighter with 20 or 30 arrows stuck in his armor penetrating about 1 - 3 inches.  Kinda ruins their day.  Those who did not wear plate armor, and this was most, wore leather, chain mail, or padded jerkins.  Chain mail is useless against arrows.  In fact the arrow splits the rings and drives them into the wound thereby increasing the resultant infection.  Padding is not effective either.  Interestingly enough the best armor against arrows was a deer skin jerkin over 18 layers of linen.  Seems the deer skin, being very soft, wraps around the arrow point converting it into a blunt.  The 18 layers of linen act as the padding.  Of course the wearer would most likely receive a broken rib from the blow but no penetration.  Somewhere I have a very well researched and tested article discussing this whole topic.
                       
                      Armor or not, if you read reasonably accurate accounts of the battles of the 100 years wars you quickly learn that fighting in plate armor is very hot.  The fighters would, at some point, raise their face shields.  The English archers were very skilled and would simply shoot for the face.  Ask King Harold at the battle of Hastings how accurately they could shoot!
                       
                      There exists a myth today that the English longbow or war bow had a pull of 100 to about 180 pounds.  True enough.  The myth is that the 120 pound bow is not as powerful as the 180 pound bow.  Seems, again through modern testing of replicas made along the lines of and patterned after bows found on the Merry Rose, that the energy delivered difference between a 120 pound bow and a 180 pound bow is not that significant.  There are a whole bunch of reasons why this is the case and they all relate the the amazing mechanics and physics of how a bow works but the net result is that a war bow was about 120 to 180 pound pull.  Now if you think about that for a moment, the strength required to pull a bow of that poundage is significant.  My heaviest bow is 49 pounds and I can shoot it all day long...........now, but not when I first started archery.  I have attempted to shoot a 90 pound English Longbow.  Attempted......  I couldn't pull it back and hold it long enough to aim.  Archers in period were typically some of the strongest and biggest men on the battle field.
                       
                      Now as for tactics, archers were very clever.  Often they would stand to the side of the men-at-arms or battle field.  As the Calvary charged, the archers would shoot the horse's rumps.  The horses would rear up throwing their riders on the ground.  Then the archers and men-at-arms would run out and kill the grounded knights and former riders.  Highly effective.
                       
                      Cross bows are much easier to use than an English Longbow.  An ELB would take years to become proficient with.  A cross bow takes a month or so.  Early cross bows were not as powerful as the ELB.  Yes they had higher poundage prods but they simply could not shoot as far at ELBs.  As the cross bow technology improved they became more powerful and could out shoot ELBs.  The rate of fire from an ELB was about 10 - 12 shafts per minute.  Cross bows were about half that.  Cross bows that had to be cranked, i.e. very high powered cross bows, even less.
                       
                      In England it was king's order than all males 7 years old or older must practice at the butts every Sunday after church.  Thus the English had an effective standing army of skilled archers.  The French were afraid of arming the peasants and thus did not promote their use of weapons much less bows.  The French hired mercenaries, usually Genoese cross bowmen to fight with them.  As the mercenaries were just that, fighting for money, they didn't have the "buy in" that the English did.  Their weapons were also not at powerful or effective as the English.  Plus it was not uncommon for the "French nobility" to ride down their own archers in battle.  French nobility had a serious distain for archers and use of the bow.  A Sir Jon in the SCA has just written an excellent, very well researched paper on the subject of nobility using the bow.  It is a myth that nobility never used the bow in battle but it is accurate that French nobility had a distain for it.  They did not consider the bow a weapon suitable for a nobleman to use.  What I find interesting is that a knight was allowed to flee the field of battle but if an archer did, they were often beheaded by their very knights who fled the field before them!  That's some real knightly nobility for ya!
                       
                      English use of the bow is what turned the tide of many a battle.  During the 100 year's war the English choose positions that forced the impatient French nights to charge them from a position of lesser advantage.  The English bowmen opened most battles with volleys of arrows.  Like in the movie Brave Heart if an English bowman could loose 10 arrows a minute and there were 5 - 7 thousand bowmen, that equates to 50 - 70 thousand arrows per minute falling on the enemy's position.  If it didn't kill them it sure did "take the snuff" out of them.  Many accounts remark about the disheartening effect of the "steel rain".
                       
                      The English Longbow, ELB, was a marvel of technology.  The preferred wood was yew although they also used hickory, ash and some other woods.  The yew staves were cut so they include some heart wood and some sap wood giving the bow a laminated appearance.  I forget which does what but one wood resists stretching and the other resists compression.  Thus, like a modern laminated bow, there were two layers that worked against each other resulting in the bow storing huge amounts of energy that was delivered to the arrow upon release of the string.  The Mongolian or horse bows were made out of horn, antler and rawhide.  Horse bows took up to seven years to build while the ELB took about one month.  Again the mechanics of how a bow works are really fascinating and only recently really understood.  Bowyers in period knew what made a good bow but most likely not the physics of why.
                       
                      And I haven't even gotten into the arrows or points used..........  Obviously I have a passion for this aspect of history.
                       
                      kog
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                      Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:45 PM
                      To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

                       






                      Hi


                      Since we have mentioned archery I do have a couple
                      of questions. One is that I had seen a programme about
                      medieval archery I believe it for the Battle of Agincourt.
                      Anyway they came to the conclusion after walking the
                      battlefield and tests that an arrow of the period could not
                      penetrate the armour. They said that it would only have
                      an effect if the arrows made it in between the spaces in
                      a suit or if they hit the horse. I would love to know your
                      thoughts on this.

                      Along the same lines I know that a crossbow took longer
                      to fire than the longbow but they had much more force.
                      If they could get enough crossbowmen together to offset
                      the time difference and there tower shields is that the
                      reason that they were banned on several occasions and
                      there popularity lasted until the 15th century? I know
                      though that it was looked upon as a scourge and that it
                      was not "worthy" of a nobleman

                      I hope this post made some sense. I thank you for the
                      time.


                      All the best,
                      Thomas


                      "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"


















                       

                      Thomas,
                      I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events.  In the case of Cornwell he actually notes in the back of his books what parts are based on true history and what parts are fictional to fill out the story.  The most common comment I've heard about this books is that he does seem to have a fascination with the raping pillaging thing.  His battle scenes are not as gory as Stalone's movies but reasonably accurate.  I have also read a series on the Mongols, their culture and their leaders.  Interesting stuff as they came up to the Danube in Europe but never crossed it for a variety of internal rasons.  The Vienesse aristocracy was fascinated by them and adopted much of their dress and armory "just for the novelty" of it.  Kinda like Marie Antoinette wearing cakes in her hair to honor the starving masses (I think it was her).
                       
                      As you re in Michigan look up a Yahoo group called MicPAC for Michigan Primative Archery Club.  They have recently renamed the group to Living History Archery Club.  Obviously their main focus is archery.  But they should by closer to you.
                       
                      kog


                       






                      Greetings Kastoff,


                      First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
                      used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
                      that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
                      started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
                      the people and events.

                      I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
                      had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
                      seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
                      in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
                      Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
                      check and see if I can get them at my local library.

                      Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
                      I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
                      minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
                      the best in all that you do. Thanks.



                      With Respect,
                      Thomas


                      Bellum Est Pater Omnium











                      To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                      From: cogworks@...
                      Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
                      Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

                       
                      Thomas,
                      As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

                      Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

                      Welcome,
                      Kastoff

                      --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello
                      >
                      > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                      > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                      > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                      >
                      > I have always loved military history as far back
                      > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                      > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                      > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                      > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                      > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                      > is this has always been a passion.
                      >
                      > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                      > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                      > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                      > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                      > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                      > for any help that I could get.
                      >
                      > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                      > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                      > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                      > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                      > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                      > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                      >
                      > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                      > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                      > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                      > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                      > letting me join.
                      >
                      >
                      > With Respect,
                      > Thomas
                      >







                    • thomas bert
                      Greetings, Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the bow? You have answered
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment




                        Greetings,


                        Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually
                        blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the
                        bow? You have answered questions I have had about the bow
                        for a quite a long time.

                        The bow has never really been of major interest but your posts
                        have given me a new insight  and respect for the weapon. I have
                        learned allot. I really appreciate you taking the time with me.



                        With Much Respect,
                        Thomas



                        "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"












                        To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                        From: cogworks@...
                        Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:23:30 -0400
                        Subject: RE: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                         

                        Thomas,
                        Slight correction -  a deer skin jerkin does not blunt the arrow but rather the deer skin wraps around the arrow point turning it into a blunt.  The metal tip remains pointed.  This is a particular characteristics of deer skin leather that only elk shares (to my personal knowledge).  These skins tend to have a slight "rubbery" texture to them in that they stretch quite a bit without ripping and are suprisingly tough for their thickness.  They also have a slight sticky nature to them in that things do not slide off them as easy as with cow hide.  Now part of that is due to the tanning process which is different than how cow hide is tanned, but a large part of it is due simply to the nature of the skin/hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned leather is stiffer, slightly water repellent and usually drum dyed to specific colors.  As chrome tanning requires a knowledge of chromium salts I think it highly unlikely that chrome tanning was used in period.
                         
                        As for knights looking like porcupines that could be due to the leather jerkin effect or from needle nose bodkin arrows piercing the softer plate armor.
                         
                        Now as for the bow used by the Saracins I would think their bow of choice would more closely resemble a horse or Mongolian bow.  As such, and due to the structure and physics of that type of bow, even though they are shorter they are actually more powerful.  The distance record for shooting an arrow was set by a Mongolian Khan and only recently broken, something like 1980's.  Horse bows are severe recurve bows with large limbs tips called syhas.  Consequently the power curve of these bows is like the power curve of a modern recurve bow.  In constrast is you plot the energy delivered to the arrow from a true longbow it is basically a straight inclined (going up) line).  In the case of a recurve (horse bows) it is a curved line with the energy delivered to the arrow radically increasing towards the end of the string's return.  This is due to how the bow works.  Let's say you have a horse bow that is 50 inch limb tip to limb tip (where the string attaches to the limbs) with a 40 pound draw.  As you start your draw you are actually pulling a 40 pound bow that is about 40 inches long.  This due to the fact that the string is still laying on the libm tips/syhas.  As you increase your draw ultimately the libm tips/syhas begin to lean back increasing the draw length of the bow and reducing the amount of energy required to pull the string back.  This is the exact same property modern compound bows use but with wheels and pulleys.  When the string is released this entire process reverses resulting in the dramatic increase of power towards the end of the power curve.  Thus a 40 pound horse bow actually shoots more like a 50 or 55 pound longbow, thinking in terms of arc of arrow, i.e. flatter line of trajectory.  Now in addition, due to the large syhas and the extreme recurving of a horse bow it can actually be oever drawn.  Modern bows are marked XX poundage at 28 inches.  That is if you draw the bow back 28 inches it will take XX pounds to do so.  Modern longbows are actually built for certain draw lengths and if you over draw the bows they will break.  In the case of horse bows they are typically shorter bows, 50 - 55 inch, but are designed to be drawn to the rear shoulder.  If you did this with a longbow you would over draw the bow and break it. 
                         
                        Here's what is happening technically.  Picture the limb tip and the string.  At rest there is a flat angle between the limb and the string.  As you draw the bow that angle increase.  Once the string is 90 degrees to the limb tip you have reached the maximum length you can draw that bow and that's call the stacking point or where the bow stacks.  This means if you continue to pull back it takes increasing amounts of energy to do so with no increase in energy to the arrow on release.  In the case of horse bows this stacking point is not reasched until a draw length of somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 inches or more.  So I guess if you can tie your shoes without bending over you could over draw a horse bow.
                         
                        Now the next issue is how the string is held.  Mediteranian stryle which the English used is to hold the string with either two or three fingers.  Usually one over and one or two under, sometimes all two or three under the arrow.  The arrow is on the left side of the bow for a right handed shooter.  A right handed shooter draws with the right hand and holds the bow in the left.  With a horse bow the draw is with the thumb.  Not mandatory but that is how the bow was used in period and still today by some and all throughout Mongolia.  The arrow is on the right side of the bow and rests on the bow hand thumb.  These bows are called horse bows because they were used with deadly effect by the Mongols from horse back.  So think of using a really long bow, i.e. ELB which were often 6 feet long, on horse back.
                         
                        So all this says that ever thought Saracins were using shorter bows, they were most likely drawing them farther back that the ELB/longbow users and using bows more powerful.
                         
                        The ELB is more of a modern term for the style of bow.  In period the English called the war bows.  You are correct in that it was thw Welsh who taught the English kings the usefullness of a bow in battle.  However Welsh bows were what we call flat bows.  A ture ELB has a D cross section with the flat part of the D facing the archer and the rounded belly away from them.  A flat bow is just that, flat on both sides.  Modern longbows are made this way.  Thw Welsh bow was actually a hunting weapon but the clever Wlesh figured if it could take down a deer it could most likely take down and Englishman and it did!
                         
                        Other European cultures used bows to effect as well.  The Vikings used bows in their ship battles.  Their bows were small short bows that were short drawn.  The whole effect here was to lob arrows into the other ship to "soften up" the enemy before boarding.  Assyrians used bows to hunt lions and their bows were shorter forerunners of the horse bow.
                         
                        For some interesting history on the types of horse bows go to horsebows.com .  The vendor Ed has done a good job of write up about the bow history.  Another one is Flagella Dei.  This is a Hungarian bowyer.
                         
                        kog
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                        Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:03 PM
                        To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                         








                        Hello,


                        Wow! I am impressed. You really do know you stuff. Your
                        information has more than answered my novice questions.
                        I am going to save your posts so that I have a good reference
                        source. Since you did so well maybe I could ask a question
                        or two in areas that you touched on.

                        The first one is you mentioned that arrows could not go through
                        the deerskin jerkin because of the give in it to blunt the arrow.
                        So somewhere I read that during the crusades it was not unusual
                        for knight to look like porcupines because of all the arrows were not
                        being able to penetrate and do much damage. I know that the enemy
                        did not use the English longbow but a smaller one that ones not
                        drawn all the way back. Is any of this accurate?

                        The second question is the term "English longbow" I know that the
                        English of course used it to good effect but again I read somewhere
                        that the longbow was originally Welsh. Could you shed some light
                        on this? Again I thank you.



                        Best Wishes,
                        Thomas



                        "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"

















                         

                        Thomas,
                        Welcome to the morass concerning archery.  I use the word morass due to the many existing and perpetuating myths about archery.  So let me give you my take (researched as well) on the topics you've touched.
                         
                        First - was archery effective against armor?  Absolutely.  But let's consider that.  First off a suit of armor in period costs about a much as a top of the line Mercedes does today.  Like today and the Mercedes, not many could afford armor.  The best armor was Milanese armor.  It could withstand an arrow.  However very few could afford this armor as it was more along the lines of a Bentley (staying with my automobile analogy).  The most common plate armor was soft and arrows could penetrate.  Not very deep, but consider a fighter with 20 or 30 arrows stuck in his armor penetrating about 1 - 3 inches.  Kinda ruins their day.  Those who did not wear plate armor, and this was most, wore leather, chain mail, or padded jerkins.  Chain mail is useless against arrows.  In fact the arrow splits the rings and drives them into the wound thereby increasing the resultant infection.  Padding is not effective either.  Interestingly enough the best armor against arrows was a deer skin jerkin over 18 layers of linen.  Seems the deer skin, being very soft, wraps around the arrow point converting it into a blunt.  The 18 layers of linen act as the padding.  Of course the wearer would most likely receive a broken rib from the blow but no penetration.  Somewhere I have a very well researched and tested article discussing this whole topic.
                         
                        Armor or not, if you read reasonably accurate accounts of the battles of the 100 years wars you quickly learn that fighting in plate armor is very hot.  The fighters would, at some point, raise their face shields.  The English archers were very skilled and would simply shoot for the face.  Ask King Harold at the battle of Hastings how accurately they could shoot!
                         
                        There exists a myth today that the English longbow or war bow had a pull of 100 to about 180 pounds.  True enough.  The myth is that the 120 pound bow is not as powerful as the 180 pound bow.  Seems, again through modern testing of replicas made along the lines of and patterned after bows found on the Merry Rose, that the energy delivered difference between a 120 pound bow and a 180 pound bow is not that significant.  There are a whole bunch of reasons why this is the case and they all relate the the amazing mechanics and physics of how a bow works but the net result is that a war bow was about 120 to 180 pound pull.  Now if you think about that for a moment, the strength required to pull a bow of that poundage is significant.  My heaviest bow is 49 pounds and I can shoot it all day long...........now, but not when I first started archery.  I have attempted to shoot a 90 pound English Longbow.  Attempted......  I couldn't pull it back and hold it long enough to aim.  Archers in period were typically some of the strongest and biggest men on the battle field.
                         
                        Now as for tactics, archers were very clever.  Often they would stand to the side of the men-at-arms or battle field.  As the Calvary charged, the archers would shoot the horse's rumps.  The horses would rear up throwing their riders on the ground.  Then the archers and men-at-arms would run out and kill the grounded knights and former riders.  Highly effective.
                         
                        Cross bows are much easier to use than an English Longbow.  An ELB would take years to become proficient with.  A cross bow takes a month or so.  Early cross bows were not as powerful as the ELB.  Yes they had higher poundage prods but they simply could not shoot as far at ELBs.  As the cross bow technology improved they became more powerful and could out shoot ELBs.  The rate of fire from an ELB was about 10 - 12 shafts per minute.  Cross bows were about half that.  Cross bows that had to be cranked, i.e. very high powered cross bows, even less.
                         
                        In England it was king's order than all males 7 years old or older must practice at the butts every Sunday after church.  Thus the English had an effective standing army of skilled archers.  The French were afraid of arming the peasants and thus did not promote their use of weapons much less bows.  The French hired mercenaries, usually Genoese cross bowmen to fight with them.  As the mercenaries were just that, fighting for money, they didn't have the "buy in" that the English did.  Their weapons were also not at powerful or effective as the English.  Plus it was not uncommon for the "French nobility" to ride down their own archers in battle.  French nobility had a serious distain for archers and use of the bow.  A Sir Jon in the SCA has just written an excellent, very well researched paper on the subject of nobility using the bow.  It is a myth that nobility never used the bow in battle but it is accurate that French nobility had a distain for it.  They did not consider the bow a weapon suitable for a nobleman to use.  What I find interesting is that a knight was allowed to flee the field of battle but if an archer did, they were often beheaded by their very knights who fled the field before them!  That's some real knightly nobility for ya!
                         
                        English use of the bow is what turned the tide of many a battle.  During the 100 year's war the English choose positions that forced the impatient French nights to charge them from a position of lesser advantage.  The English bowmen opened most battles with volleys of arrows.  Like in the movie Brave Heart if an English bowman could loose 10 arrows a minute and there were 5 - 7 thousand bowmen, that equates to 50 - 70 thousand arrows per minute falling on the enemy's position.  If it didn't kill them it sure did "take the snuff" out of them.  Many accounts remark about the disheartening effect of the "steel rain".
                         
                        The English Longbow, ELB, was a marvel of technology.  The preferred wood was yew although they also used hickory, ash and some other woods.  The yew staves were cut so they include some heart wood and some sap wood giving the bow a laminated appearance.  I forget which does what but one wood resists stretching and the other resists compression.  Thus, like a modern laminated bow, there were two layers that worked against each other resulting in the bow storing huge amounts of energy that was delivered to the arrow upon release of the string.  The Mongolian or horse bows were made out of horn, antler and rawhide.  Horse bows took up to seven years to build while the ELB took about one month.  Again the mechanics of how a bow works are really fascinating and only recently really understood.  Bowyers in period knew what made a good bow but most likely not the physics of why.
                         
                        And I haven't even gotten into the arrows or points used..........  Obviously I have a passion for this aspect of history.
                         
                        kog
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                        Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:45 PM
                        To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Greetings!

                         






                        Hi


                        Since we have mentioned archery I do have a couple
                        of questions. One is that I had seen a programme about
                        medieval archery I believe it for the Battle of Agincourt.
                        Anyway they came to the conclusion after walking the
                        battlefield and tests that an arrow of the period could not
                        penetrate the armour. They said that it would only have
                        an effect if the arrows made it in between the spaces in
                        a suit or if they hit the horse. I would love to know your
                        thoughts on this.

                        Along the same lines I know that a crossbow took longer
                        to fire than the longbow but they had much more force.
                        If they could get enough crossbowmen together to offset
                        the time difference and there tower shields is that the
                        reason that they were banned on several occasions and
                        there popularity lasted until the 15th century? I know
                        though that it was looked upon as a scourge and that it
                        was not "worthy" of a nobleman

                        I hope this post made some sense. I thank you for the
                        time.


                        All the best,
                        Thomas


                        "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"


















                         

                        Thomas,
                        I find that as I read actual history there are some authors who write fiction that stay pretty close to the actual events.  In the case of Cornwell he actually notes in the back of his books what parts are based on true history and what parts are fictional to fill out the story.  The most common comment I've heard about this books is that he does seem to have a fascination with the raping pillaging thing.  His battle scenes are not as gory as Stalone's movies but reasonably accurate.  I have also read a series on the Mongols, their culture and their leaders.  Interesting stuff as they came up to the Danube in Europe but never crossed it for a variety of internal rasons.  The Vienesse aristocracy was fascinated by them and adopted much of their dress and armory "just for the novelty" of it.  Kinda like Marie Antoinette wearing cakes in her hair to honor the starving masses (I think it was her).
                         
                        As you re in Michigan look up a Yahoo group called MicPAC for Michigan Primative Archery Club.  They have recently renamed the group to Living History Archery Club.  Obviously their main focus is archery.  But they should by closer to you.
                         
                        kog


                         






                        Greetings Kastoff,


                        First I want to thank you for the book recommendations. I
                        used to avoid fiction for quite awhile. I was of the thinking
                        that I enjoy reading nonfiction history. Over the years I have
                        started to relax this idea. It helps bring a little more life into
                        the people and events.

                        I recorded "The Pillars of the Earth"  programme but I have not
                        had the chance to watch it. It could be of interest to me. It
                        seems that the period of King Stephens reign is not researched
                        in depth. I have heard good and bad things about Bernard
                        Cornwell's books. I have limited funds at the moment but I will
                        check and see if I can get them at my local library.

                        Unfortunately I will not be able to join you for your reenactments.
                        I live in south east Michigan in Monroe county. It is about fifteen
                        minutes from the Ohio border. I would still like to wish all of you
                        the best in all that you do. Thanks.



                        With Respect,
                        Thomas


                        Bellum Est Pater Omnium











                        To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                        From: cogworks@...
                        Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:44:47 +0000
                        Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Re: Greetings!

                         
                        Thomas,
                        As for reading I can recommend a few books for starters. They are fiction but fiction that is fairly accurate to the time period and provide a quality look into what life was really like back then. The first is Pilars of the Earth, recently made into a movie for TV. Haven't seen the movie so can't address how accurate it is to the book. The other series and there are several books here are books by Bernard Cornwell. As for historical accuracy my area of most interest is archery and can provide a list of books realted to the subject should you be interested. A couple of other books I found interesting were a book titled something like The Plague and How it Changed History. Another was collapse. Collapse deals with cultures from the dawn of history through the settling of the Australian outback and what stupid things man did for stupid reasons and the effects of this stupidity. It explains why some things never happened, i.e. why the Vikings never settled Greenland.

                        Where are you physically located? Will you be able to join us for our events?

                        Welcome,
                        Kastoff

                        --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello
                        >
                        > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                        > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                        > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                        >
                        > I have always loved military history as far back
                        > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                        > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                        > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                        > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                        > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                        > is this has always been a passion.
                        >
                        > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                        > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                        > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                        > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                        > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                        > for any help that I could get.
                        >
                        > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                        > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                        > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                        > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                        > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                        > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                        >
                        > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                        > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                        > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                        > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                        > letting me join.
                        >
                        >
                        > With Respect,
                        > Thomas
                        >









                      • John Atkins
                        email is an imprecise method of communication. Things are often misunderstood via it. No issues. My lady and I have been members of the SCA for over 10
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Message
                          email is an imprecise method of communication.  Things are often misunderstood via it.  No issues.
                           
                          My lady and I have been members of the SCA for over 10 years.  When we first joined we did combat archery, where you actually get to shoot people.  The SCA doodled with the rules which made the cost of amo sky rocket then they went from touch kill for CAs to full contact wherein CAs have no means to protect themselfs nor blunt a killing blow.  As most heavies really hate CAs this opens one up to serious heavy abuse (not that that will happen in all cases).  Most CAs select the activity because they choose not to expose their bodies to the damage experienced by the heavies.  But that started an interest in the bow.
                           
                          During my CA time I did a bit of target archery but was not very good.  We were also doing it in Florida and the Florida summer was just to brutal for real interest.  When we moved to NC my criteria for a house was that I could shoot a bow in my yard without freaking out the neighbors.  As it turns out we live on 4 1/2 acres so I have a very nice home range.  I started shooting regularly.  OK, in truth I started shooting with aluminum arrows at hay bales I rather stupidly placed on cinder blocks.  After going through three dozen arrows in short order I learned that if I angled the blocks the arrows would glance off instead of breaking.  DUHH!!  Now days it's not an issue because I don't hit the cinder blocks any more.
                           
                          My SCA kingdom is Atlantian which ranges from Maryland to Georgia and is one of the strongest kingdoms in the SCA for archery.  As such, there were lots of opportunities for target archery at events.  I got hooked.  Like everything I get involved with, if I like it I jump all the way in.  Fortunately for me I work out of a home office so when I need a break, several times a day, I go out to my garage, string up a bow and shoot a few arrows.  I also find a basic beauty to a well made traditional bow versus the ugly yet practical appearance of a modern compound bow.  I call the compounds arrow launching machines.  Somewhere along the way I read a line that said that primatives make up for their lack of technology with skill.  I have read this backed up by hunters who use traditional gear.  They are out practicing and warming up while their modern compound buddies are inside drinking and eating.  I'm not here to knock compound bows, I just prefer the skill required and beauty of traditional gear.
                           
                          As with anything I'm very interested in, I read everything I can get my hands on.  I ask lots of questions of people I trust and know really know their stuff.  There are a lot of folks in the SCA who hang out at the archery range who really don't know what they are talking about.  On the other hand there are many who really do know their stuff.
                           
                          For me it is a hobby, but like all my hobbies, I'm obsessed.  Currently I have 14 bows hanging in my garage.  I also have about 6 crossbows.  Every hand bow has at least one dozen arrows matched to it, in most cases more than one dozen.  I also have a whole bucket full of practice arrows.  For good if not best results, arrows have to be matched to the bow.  I also make my own quivers and other leather stuff.  So I'm in the deep end of the archery pool and loving it.
                           
                          kog
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                          Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:37 PM
                          To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                           





                          Greetings,


                          Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually
                          blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the
                          bow? You have answered questions I have had about the bow
                          for a quite a long time.

                          The bow has never really been of major interest but your posts
                          have given me a new insight  and respect for the weapon. I have
                          learned allot. I really appreciate you taking the time with me.



                          With Much Respect,
                          Thomas



                          "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"
                          /hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned
                          .

                        • thomas bert
                          There are so many things that I want to do but I do not really have the skill or money at that moment. I am happy for you. It really is a blessing to be able
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment





                            There are so many things that I want to do but I do not really
                            have the skill or money at that moment. I am happy for you. It
                            really is a blessing to be able to do what ones loves. I look
                            forward to many more enjoyable conversations.



                            With Respect,
                            Thomas




                            "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                             

                            email is an imprecise method of communication.  Things are often misunderstood via it.  No issues.
                             
                            My lady and I have been members of the SCA for over 10 years.  When we first joined we did combat archery, where you actually get to shoot people.  The SCA doodled with the rules which made the cost of amo sky rocket then they went from touch kill for CAs to full contact wherein CAs have no means to protect themselfs nor blunt a killing blow.  As most heavies really hate CAs this opens one up to serious heavy abuse (not that that will happen in all cases).  Most CAs select the activity because they choose not to expose their bodies to the damage experienced by the heavies.  But that started an interest in the bow.
                             
                            During my CA time I did a bit of target archery but was not very good.  We were also doing it in Florida and the Florida summer was just to brutal for real interest.  When we moved to NC my criteria for a house was that I could shoot a bow in my yard without freaking out the neighbors.  As it turns out we live on 4 1/2 acres so I have a very nice home range.  I started shooting regularly.  OK, in truth I started shooting with aluminum arrows at hay bales I rather stupidly placed on cinder blocks.  After going through three dozen arrows in short order I learned that if I angled the blocks the arrows would glance off instead of breaking.  DUHH!!  Now days it's not an issue because I don't hit the cinder blocks any more.
                             
                            My SCA kingdom is Atlantian which ranges from Maryland to Georgia and is one of the strongest kingdoms in the SCA for archery.  As such, there were lots of opportunities for target archery at events.  I got hooked.  Like everything I get involved with, if I like it I jump all the way in.  Fortunately for me I work out of a home office so when I need a break, several times a day, I go out to my garage, string up a bow and shoot a few arrows.  I also find a basic beauty to a well made traditional bow versus the ugly yet practical appearance of a modern compound bow.  I call the compounds arrow launching machines.  Somewhere along the way I read a line that said that primatives make up for their lack of technology with skill.  I have read this backed up by hunters who use traditional gear.  They are out practicing and warming up while their modern compound buddies are inside drinking and eating.  I'm not here to knock compound bows, I just prefer the skill required and beauty of traditional gear.
                             
                            As with anything I'm very interested in, I read everything I can get my hands on.  I ask lots of questions of people I trust and know really know their stuff.  There are a lot of folks in the SCA who hang out at the archery range who really don't know what they are talking about.  On the other hand there are many who really do know their stuff.
                             
                            For me it is a hobby, but like all my hobbies, I'm obsessed.  Currently I have 14 bows hanging in my garage.  I also have about 6 crossbows.  Every hand bow has at least one dozen arrows matched to it, in most cases more than one dozen.  I also have a whole bucket full of practice arrows.  For good if not best results, arrows have to be matched to the bow.  I also make my own quivers and other leather stuff.  So I'm in the deep end of the archery pool and loving it.
                             
                            kog
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                            Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:37 PM
                            To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                             





                            Greetings,


                            Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually
                            blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the
                            bow? You have answered questions I have had about the bow
                            for a quite a long time.

                            The bow has never really been of major interest but your posts
                            have given me a new insight  and respect for the weapon. I have
                            learned allot. I really appreciate you taking the time with me.



                            With Much Respect,
                            Thomas



                            "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"
                            /hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned
                            .


                          • John Atkins
                            Thomas, Atlantia has a thing they call Royal Rounds. It is a method for archers throughout the kingdom to compare themselfs as well as with archers in other
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Message
                              Thomas,
                              Atlantia has a thing they call Royal Rounds.  It is a method for archers throughout the kingdom to compare themselfs as well as with archers in other kingdoms (the Royal Round is standardized throughout the SCA).  A Royal Round is six shafts at 20, 30, and 40 yards untimed and as many as you can get off in 30 seconds at 20 yards.  Scoring is on a standard FITA five ring target 5 - 1 from inner most color to outer most.  Thus a perfect 6 shaft end (shot at the prescribed yardage) would be 30 points.  Using a $100 bow I was able to record an average of 80.  Now my bows cost a bit more with my most expensive being in the $750 range.  However my scores are not substantially higher.  The best average I have ever been able to attain thus far is 90.  So, like my comment in my previous post, skill makes up for technology.  Rudder Bows makes some fine wooden bows for under or around $100.  Should even this be a strain on your budget, and I can fully appreciate that, they offer "finish it yourself" kits starting about $40.  I know several who have purchased these kits and made some very fine bows and are shooting quite well with them.  So my point is one does not need a Black Widow (about $1000 or more) or a Yumi (about $2000 and going up from there) to get great scores.  The entire secret of archery, and something I left out in my previous post of how I got started, is that archery is a zen like experience.  To get good, or to satisfy yourself that you can hit what you aim at with a degree of regularity, all it takes is focus and practice.  When I'm shooting well, whatever is "outside" I am not aware of.  As Mell Gibson said in Patriot "aim small, miss small".
                               
                              Shooting involves four basic steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.  The draw takes some strength and you can build up to it (more later on this!).  The anchor defines where you stop the draw.  My instructional starting point is the web of your hand at the base of your thumb goes to the point of your jaw.  Another anchor point is your index finger tip rests at the corner of your mouth.  Aiming is simply a matter of getting your aiming eye over the shaft.  This involves a slight tilt of the head.  The other issue then becomes how much elevation for the distance you are shooting.  This is determined only over time with your bow and your arrows.  The last part is the release.  The release is little more than simply stop holding the string.  You relax your draw hand and let the string pull out of it.  Your draw hand should do one of two things stay at your anchor point or move back to rest on your rear shoulder.  A beginner mistake is for the draw hand to fly away from the face doing what we call the balerina.  This pulls the string away from your face and the back of arrow causing the arrow to waggle ro swim as it goes down range.  Once you determine your personal draw, anchor, aim, release process all that's needed is to do it 5000 times so it becomes automatic.  And that translates into practice.  Of course having a place to practice helps a great deal but it is possible to practice archery in an appratment.  NO!  I am not suggesting you line up a room mate and have them hold paper plates in front of them across the room, although with some room mates I've had in the past I like the idea!!  Get a plastic trash can and put some pillows or a wadded up blanket you don't want any more in the bottom third of it.  Mount it on a wall so it is horizontal.  That is, the open end, top, is facing away from the wall.  Take one arrow and take the point off so it is blunt.  Stand about 3 - 4 feet from the top of the trash can and practice draw, anchor, aim, release.  There you go, practice in an appartment!  Byron Ferguson, the guy who shoots asprins out of the air does this with a burlap bag hanging in a tree.  He stands so close he shoots, steps forward to withdraw the arrow and shoots again.  It really is about the four steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.
                               
                              So how much would it cost to get started?  $40 for a finish it yourself bow (or less for a good bow from eBay or garage sale - I've got way more points on how to buy a used bow that I can share if you are interested in this) and 6 arrows at about $6 per arrow max.  Of course you WILL get hooked and want more, but that's down the line.  But for under $100 you're in the game and actually realizing what it meant to be one of those yeoman on the battle field at Crecy or Agincourt.  When we do demos for schools in the area I have the participating archers do a draw, hold, release on command so the kids get an idea of that it would be like to have 5000 to 7000 arrows falling on the target all at once.  It is impressive!
                               
                              As for questions or discussions about aspects of the Middle Ages and particularly archery I'm here and obvious, mostly because I type really fast, am more than willing to enter in discussions.
                               
                              Now not knowing you but thinking in terms of physical limitations let just share with you one individual who attends Pennsic, the world's largest gathering of SCA folk this year 10,000 but usually more like 15 to 20 thousand.  Merlin suffered a tragic accident some years past and is confined to a wheel chair.  He acts as a marshal, safety officer, on the range at Pennsic every single day.  He still shoots.  Yes, even from his wheel chair and he is a formidable archer.  I know of several folks who have had shoulder operations that used to shoot bows in the 50 pound range or more but are not shooting bows of much less poundage due to the operations.  In fact the latest record breaking arrow flight distance shot was set by a youth in England with a 25 pound bow.  Once does not need high poundage bows to be a good shooter.  Bdugets permitting, I encourage you to join in.
                               
                              kog
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                              Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:09 PM
                              To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                               






                              There are so many things that I want to do but I do not really
                              have the skill or money at that moment. I am happy for you. It
                              really is a blessing to be able to do what ones loves. I look
                              forward to many more enjoyable conversations.



                              With Respect,
                              Thomas




                              "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                               

                              email is an imprecise method of communication.  Things are often misunderstood via it.  No issues.
                               
                              My lady and I have been members of the SCA for over 10 years.  When we first joined we did combat archery, where you actually get to shoot people.  The SCA doodled with the rules which made the cost of amo sky rocket then they went from touch kill for CAs to full contact wherein CAs have no means to protect themselfs nor blunt a killing blow.  As most heavies really hate CAs this opens one up to serious heavy abuse (not that that will happen in all cases).  Most CAs select the activity because they choose not to expose their bodies to the damage experienced by the heavies.  But that started an interest in the bow.
                               
                              During my CA time I did a bit of target archery but was not very good.  We were also doing it in Florida and the Florida summer was just to brutal for real interest.  When we moved to NC my criteria for a house was that I could shoot a bow in my yard without freaking out the neighbors.  As it turns out we live on 4 1/2 acres so I have a very nice home range.  I started shooting regularly.  OK, in truth I started shooting with aluminum arrows at hay bales I rather stupidly placed on cinder blocks.  After going through three dozen arrows in short order I learned that if I angled the blocks the arrows would glance off instead of breaking.  DUHH!!  Now days it's not an issue because I don't hit the cinder blocks any more.
                               
                              My SCA kingdom is Atlantian which ranges from Maryland to Georgia and is one of the strongest kingdoms in the SCA for archery.  As such, there were lots of opportunities for target archery at events.  I got hooked.  Like everything I get involved with, if I like it I jump all the way in.  Fortunately for me I work out of a home office so when I need a break, several times a day, I go out to my garage, string up a bow and shoot a few arrows.  I also find a basic beauty to a well made traditional bow versus the ugly yet practical appearance of a modern compound bow.  I call the compounds arrow launching machines.  Somewhere along the way I read a line that said that primatives make up for their lack of technology with skill.  I have read this backed up by hunters who use traditional gear.  They are out practicing and warming up while their modern compound buddies are inside drinking and eating.  I'm not here to knock compound bows, I just prefer the skill required and beauty of traditional gear.
                               
                              As with anything I'm very interested in, I read everything I can get my hands on.  I ask lots of questions of people I trust and know really know their stuff.  There are a lot of folks in the SCA who hang out at the archery range who really don't know what they are talking about.  On the other hand there are many who really do know their stuff.
                               
                              For me it is a hobby, but like all my hobbies, I'm obsessed.  Currently I have 14 bows hanging in my garage.  I also have about 6 crossbows.  Every hand bow has at least one dozen arrows matched to it, in most cases more than one dozen.  I also have a whole bucket full of practice arrows.  For good if not best results, arrows have to be matched to the bow.  I also make my own quivers and other leather stuff.  So I'm in the deep end of the archery pool and loving it.
                               
                              kog
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                              Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:37 PM
                              To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                               





                              Greetings,


                              Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually
                              blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the
                              bow? You have answered questions I have had about the bow
                              for a quite a long time.

                              The bow has never really been of major interest but your posts
                              have given me a new insight  and respect for the weapon. I have
                              learned allot. I really appreciate you taking the time with me.



                              With Much Respect,
                              Thomas



                              "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"
                              /hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned
                              .


                            • Keat Cahoon
                              good day thomas, i have found that archery is one of the most inexpensive hobbies that one can get into in the sca. another friend got me back into archery,
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                good day thomas,

                                i have found that archery is one of the most inexpensive hobbies that one can get into in the sca. another friend got me back into archery, but i have found out so much more from kog.

                                i am a student at the moment, and am also in a financial bind. i am having to buy cheap aluminum arrows that are all black. it is not truly authentic, but it works. i have also heard that making your own arrows can cut down on cost. it is just one of those things that pay off over a long period of time.

                                and i am sure that you can find decent bows. i would recommend a maker, but they have gone out of business. i recommend finding people in your kingdom like kog that can give you better advice on that front.

                                hope that you find out what you like and have a great time doing it. all of us here in lyonnesse get to meet you someday.

                                sincerely
                                Lady Rose McDade

                              • Keat Cahoon
                                i hope i get to see you again at sacred stones birthday. i have so many questions to ask you. mainly about arrows. hope you and your lady are alright. lady
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  i hope i get to see you again at sacred stones birthday. i have so many questions to ask you. mainly about arrows. hope you and your lady are alright.

                                  lady rose mcdade
                                   
                                  To all of my fellow Callidorians, I hope that grace smiles upon you and your households today.



                                  From: John Atkins <cogworks@...>
                                  To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 5:39:51 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                   

                                  Thomas,
                                  Atlantia has a thing they call Royal Rounds.  It is a method for archers throughout the kingdom to compare themselfs as well as with archers in other kingdoms (the Royal Round is standardized throughout the SCA).  A Royal Round is six shafts at 20, 30, and 40 yards untimed and as many as you can get off in 30 seconds at 20 yards.  Scoring is on a standard FITA five ring target 5 - 1 from inner most color to outer most.  Thus a perfect 6 shaft end (shot at the prescribed yardage) would be 30 points.  Using a $100 bow I was able to record an average of 80.  Now my bows cost a bit more with my most expensive being in the $750 range.  However my scores are not substantially higher.  The best average I have ever been able to attain thus far is 90.  So, like my comment in my previous post, skill makes up for technology.  Rudder Bows makes some fine wooden bows for under or around $100.  Should even this be a strain on your budget, and I can fully appreciate that, they offer "finish it yourself" kits starting about $40.  I know several who have purchased these kits and made some very fine bows and are shooting quite well with them.  So my point is one does not need a Black Widow (about $1000 or more) or a Yumi (about $2000 and going up from there) to get great scores.  The entire secret of archery, and something I left out in my previous post of how I got started, is that archery is a zen like experience.  To get good, or to satisfy yourself that you can hit what you aim at with a degree of regularity, all it takes is focus and practice.  When I'm shooting well, whatever is "outside" I am not aware of.  As Mell Gibson said in Patriot "aim small, miss small".
                                   
                                  Shooting involves four basic steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.  The draw takes some strength and you can build up to it (more later on this!).  The anchor defines where you stop the draw.  My instructional starting point is the web of your hand at the base of your thumb goes to the point of your jaw.  Another anchor point is your index finger tip rests at the corner of your mouth.  Aiming is simply a matter of getting your aiming eye over the shaft.  This involves a slight tilt of the head.  The other issue then becomes how much elevation for the distance you are shooting.  This is determined only over time with your bow and your arrows.  The last part is the release.  The release is little more than simply stop holding the string.  You relax your draw hand and let the string pull out of it.  Your draw hand should do one of two things stay at your anchor point or move back to rest on your rear shoulder.  A beginner mistake is for the draw hand to fly away from the face doing what we call the balerina.  This pulls the string away from your face and the back of arrow causing the arrow to waggle ro swim as it goes down range.  Once you determine your personal draw, anchor, aim, release process all that's needed is to do it 5000 times so it becomes automatic.  And that translates into practice.  Of course having a place to practice helps a great deal but it is possible to practice archery in an appratment.  NO!  I am not suggesting you line up a room mate and have them hold paper plates in front of them across the room, although with some room mates I've had in the past I like the idea!!  Get a plastic trash can and put some pillows or a wadded up blanket you don't want any more in the bottom third of it.  Mount it on a wall so it is horizontal.  That is, the open end, top, is facing away from the wall.  Take one arrow and take the point off so it is blunt.  Stand about 3 - 4 feet from the top of the trash can and practice draw, anchor, aim, release.  There you go, practice in an appartment!  Byron Ferguson, the guy who shoots asprins out of the air does this with a burlap bag hanging in a tree.  He stands so close he shoots, steps forward to withdraw the arrow and shoots again.  It really is about the four steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.
                                   
                                  So how much would it cost to get started?  $40 for a finish it yourself bow (or less for a good bow from eBay or garage sale - I've got way more points on how to buy a used bow that I can share if you are interested in this) and 6 arrows at about $6 per arrow max.  Of course you WILL get hooked and want more, but that's down the line.  But for under $100 you're in the game and actually realizing what it meant to be one of those yeoman on the battle field at Crecy or Agincourt.  When we do demos for schools in the area I have the participating archers do a draw, hold, release on command so the kids get an idea of that it would be like to have 5000 to 7000 arrows falling on the target all at once.  It is impressive!
                                   
                                  As for questions or discussions about aspects of the Middle Ages and particularly archery I'm here and obvious, mostly because I type really fast, am more than willing to enter in discussions.
                                   
                                  Now not knowing you but thinking in terms of physical limitations let just share with you one individual who attends Pennsic, the world's largest gathering of SCA folk this year 10,000 but usually more like 15 to 20 thousand.  Merlin suffered a tragic accident some years past and is confined to a wheel chair.  He acts as a marshal, safety officer, on the range at Pennsic every single day.  He still shoots.  Yes, even from his wheel chair and he is a formidable archer.  I know of several folks who have had shoulder operations that used to shoot bows in the 50 pound range or more but are not shooting bows of much less poundage due to the operations.  In fact the latest record breaking arrow flight distance shot was set by a youth in England with a 25 pound bow.  Once does not need high poundage bows to be a good shooter.  Bdugets permitting, I encourage you to join in.
                                   
                                  kog
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                  Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:09 PM
                                  To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                   






                                  There are so many things that I want to do but I do not really
                                  have the skill or money at that moment. I am happy for you. It
                                  really is a blessing to be able to do what ones loves. I look
                                  forward to many more enjoyable conversations.



                                  With Respect,
                                  Thomas




                                  "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                                   

                                  email is an imprecise method of communication.  Things are often misunderstood via it.  No issues.
                                   
                                  My lady and I have been members of the SCA for over 10 years.  When we first joined we did combat archery, where you actually get to shoot people.  The SCA doodled with the rules which made the cost of amo sky rocket then they went from touch kill for CAs to full contact wherein CAs have no means to protect themselfs nor blunt a killing blow.  As most heavies really hate CAs this opens one up to serious heavy abuse (not that that will happen in all cases).  Most CAs select the activity because they choose not to expose their bodies to the damage experienced by the heavies.  But that started an interest in the bow.
                                   
                                  During my CA time I did a bit of target archery but was not very good.  We were also doing it in Florida and the Florida summer was just to brutal for real interest.  When we moved to NC my criteria for a house was that I could shoot a bow in my yard without freaking out the neighbors.  As it turns out we live on 4 1/2 acres so I have a very nice home range.  I started shooting regularly.  OK, in truth I started shooting with aluminum arrows at hay bales I rather stupidly placed on cinder blocks.  After going through three dozen arrows in short order I learned that if I angled the blocks the arrows would glance off instead of breaking.  DUHH!!  Now days it's not an issue because I don't hit the cinder blocks any more.
                                   
                                  My SCA kingdom is Atlantian which ranges from Maryland to Georgia and is one of the strongest kingdoms in the SCA for archery.  As such, there were lots of opportunities for target archery at events.  I got hooked.  Like everything I get involved with, if I like it I jump all the way in.  Fortunately for me I work out of a home office so when I need a break, several times a day, I go out to my garage, string up a bow and shoot a few arrows.  I also find a basic beauty to a well made traditional bow versus the ugly yet practical appearance of a modern compound bow.  I call the compounds arrow launching machines.  Somewhere along the way I read a line that said that primatives make up for their lack of technology with skill.  I have read this backed up by hunters who use traditional gear.  They are out practicing and warming up while their modern compound buddies are inside drinking and eating.  I'm not here to knock compound bows, I just prefer the skill required and beauty of traditional gear.
                                   
                                  As with anything I'm very interested in, I read everything I can get my hands on.  I ask lots of questions of people I trust and know really know their stuff.  There are a lot of folks in the SCA who hang out at the archery range who really don't know what they are talking about.  On the other hand there are many who really do know their stuff.
                                   
                                  For me it is a hobby, but like all my hobbies, I'm obsessed.  Currently I have 14 bows hanging in my garage.  I also have about 6 crossbows.  Every hand bow has at least one dozen arrows matched to it, in most cases more than one dozen.  I also have a whole bucket full of practice arrows.  For good if not best results, arrows have to be matched to the bow.  I also make my own quivers and other leather stuff.  So I'm in the deep end of the archery pool and loving it.
                                   
                                  kog
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                  Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:37 PM
                                  To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                   





                                  Greetings,


                                  Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually
                                  blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the
                                  bow? You have answered questions I have had about the bow
                                  for a quite a long time.

                                  The bow has never really been of major interest but your posts
                                  have given me a new insight  and respect for the weapon. I have
                                  learned allot. I really appreciate you taking the time with me.



                                  With Much Respect,
                                  Thomas



                                  "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"
                                  /hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned
                                  .



                                • John Atkins
                                  Lady E and I will be in attandance at SSBB. She will be running the thrown weapons range I and I will marshalling the atlatl battle and runing the archery
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Message
                                    Lady E and I will be in attandance at SSBB.  She will be running the thrown weapons range I and I will marshalling the atlatl battle and runing the archery champion's shoot.
                                     
                                    cog/kog
                                     
                                     
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keat Cahoon
                                    Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 7:43 PM
                                    To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                     

                                    i hope i get to see you again at sacred stones birthday. i have so many questions to ask you. mainly about arrows. hope you and your lady are alright.

                                    lady rose mcdade
                                     
                                    To all of my fellow Callidorians, I hope that grace smiles upon you and your households today.



                                    From: John Atkins <cogworks@...>
                                    To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 5:39:51 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                     

                                    Thomas,
                                    Atlantia has a thing they call Royal Rounds.  It is a method for archers throughout the kingdom to compare themselfs as well as with archers in other kingdoms (the Royal Round is standardized throughout the SCA).  A Royal Round is six shafts at 20, 30, and 40 yards untimed and as many as you can get off in 30 seconds at 20 yards.  Scoring is on a standard FITA five ring target 5 - 1 from inner most color to outer most.  Thus a perfect 6 shaft end (shot at the prescribed yardage) would be 30 points.  Using a $100 bow I was able to record an average of 80.  Now my bows cost a bit more with my most expensive being in the $750 range.  However my scores are not substantially higher.  The best average I have ever been able to attain thus far is 90.  So, like my comment in my previous post, skill makes up for technology.  Rudder Bows makes some fine wooden bows for under or around $100.  Should even this be a strain on your budget, and I can fully appreciate that, they offer "finish it yourself" kits starting about $40.  I know several who have purchased these kits and made some very fine bows and are shooting quite well with them.  So my point is one does not need a Black Widow (about $1000 or more) or a Yumi (about $2000 and going up from there) to get great scores.  The entire secret of archery, and something I left out in my previous post of how I got started, is that archery is a zen like experience.  To get good, or to satisfy yourself that you can hit what you aim at with a degree of regularity, all it takes is focus and practice.  When I'm shooting well, whatever is "outside" I am not aware of.  As Mell Gibson said in Patriot "aim small, miss small".
                                     
                                    Shooting involves four basic steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.  The draw takes some strength and you can build up to it (more later on this!).  The anchor defines where you stop the draw.  My instructional starting point is the web of your hand at the base of your thumb goes to the point of your jaw.  Another anchor point is your index finger tip rests at the corner of your mouth.  Aiming is simply a matter of getting your aiming eye over the shaft.  This involves a slight tilt of the head.  The other issue then becomes how much elevation for the distance you are shooting.  This is determined only over time with your bow and your arrows.  The last part is the release.  The release is little more than simply stop holding the string.  You relax your draw hand and let the string pull out of it.  Your draw hand should do one of two things stay at your anchor point or move back to rest on your rear shoulder.  A beginner mistake is for the draw hand to fly away from the face doing what we call the balerina.  This pulls the string away from your face and the back of arrow causing the arrow to waggle ro swim as it goes down range.  Once you determine your personal draw, anchor, aim, release process all that's needed is to do it 5000 times so it becomes automatic.  And that translates into practice.  Of course having a place to practice helps a great deal but it is possible to practice archery in an appratment.  NO!  I am not suggesting you line up a room mate and have them hold paper plates in front of them across the room, although with some room mates I've had in the past I like the idea!!  Get a plastic trash can and put some pillows or a wadded up blanket you don't want any more in the bottom third of it.  Mount it on a wall so it is horizontal.  That is, the open end, top, is facing away from the wall.  Take one arrow and take the point off so it is blunt.  Stand about 3 - 4 feet from the top of the trash can and practice draw, anchor, aim, release.  There you go, practice in an appartment!  Byron Ferguson, the guy who shoots asprins out of the air does this with a burlap bag hanging in a tree.  He stands so close he shoots, steps forward to withdraw the arrow and shoots again.  It really is about the four steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.
                                     
                                    So how much would it cost to get started?  $40 for a finish it yourself bow (or less for a good bow from eBay or garage sale - I've got way more points on how to buy a used bow that I can share if you are interested in this) and 6 arrows at about $6 per arrow max.  Of course you WILL get hooked and want more, but that's down the line.  But for under $100 you're in the game and actually realizing what it meant to be one of those yeoman on the battle field at Crecy or Agincourt.  When we do demos for schools in the area I have the participating archers do a draw, hold, release on command so the kids get an idea of that it would be like to have 5000 to 7000 arrows falling on the target all at once.  It is impressive!
                                     
                                    As for questions or discussions about aspects of the Middle Ages and particularly archery I'm here and obvious, mostly because I type really fast, am more than willing to enter in discussions.
                                     
                                    Now not knowing you but thinking in terms of physical limitations let just share with you one individual who attends Pennsic, the world's largest gathering of SCA folk this year 10,000 but usually more like 15 to 20 thousand.  Merlin suffered a tragic accident some years past and is confined to a wheel chair.  He acts as a marshal, safety officer, on the range at Pennsic every single day.  He still shoots.  Yes, even from his wheel chair and he is a formidable archer.  I know of several folks who have had shoulder operations that used to shoot bows in the 50 pound range or more but are not shooting bows of much less poundage due to the operations.  In fact the latest record breaking arrow flight distance shot was set by a youth in England with a 25 pound bow.  Once does not need high poundage bows to be a good shooter.  Bdugets permitting, I encourage you to join in.
                                     
                                    kog
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                    Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:09 PM
                                    To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                     






                                    There are so many things that I want to do but I do not really
                                    have the skill or money at that moment. I am happy for you. It
                                    really is a blessing to be able to do what ones loves. I look
                                    forward to many more enjoyable conversations.



                                    With Respect,
                                    Thomas




                                    "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                                     

                                    email is an imprecise method of communication.  Things are often misunderstood via it.  No issues.
                                     
                                    My lady and I have been members of the SCA for over 10 years.  When we first joined we did combat archery, where you actually get to shoot people.  The SCA doodled with the rules which made the cost of amo sky rocket then they went from touch kill for CAs to full contact wherein CAs have no means to protect themselfs nor blunt a killing blow.  As most heavies really hate CAs this opens one up to serious heavy abuse (not that that will happen in all cases).  Most CAs select the activity because they choose not to expose their bodies to the damage experienced by the heavies.  But that started an interest in the bow.
                                     
                                    During my CA time I did a bit of target archery but was not very good.  We were also doing it in Florida and the Florida summer was just to brutal for real interest.  When we moved to NC my criteria for a house was that I could shoot a bow in my yard without freaking out the neighbors.  As it turns out we live on 4 1/2 acres so I have a very nice home range.  I started shooting regularly.  OK, in truth I started shooting with aluminum arrows at hay bales I rather stupidly placed on cinder blocks.  After going through three dozen arrows in short order I learned that if I angled the blocks the arrows would glance off instead of breaking.  DUHH!!  Now days it's not an issue because I don't hit the cinder blocks any more.
                                     
                                    My SCA kingdom is Atlantian which ranges from Maryland to Georgia and is one of the strongest kingdoms in the SCA for archery.  As such, there were lots of opportunities for target archery at events.  I got hooked.  Like everything I get involved with, if I like it I jump all the way in.  Fortunately for me I work out of a home office so when I need a break, several times a day, I go out to my garage, string up a bow and shoot a few arrows.  I also find a basic beauty to a well made traditional bow versus the ugly yet practical appearance of a modern compound bow.  I call the compounds arrow launching machines.  Somewhere along the way I read a line that said that primatives make up for their lack of technology with skill.  I have read this backed up by hunters who use traditional gear.  They are out practicing and warming up while their modern compound buddies are inside drinking and eating.  I'm not here to knock compound bows, I just prefer the skill required and beauty of traditional gear.
                                     
                                    As with anything I'm very interested in, I read everything I can get my hands on.  I ask lots of questions of people I trust and know really know their stuff.  There are a lot of folks in the SCA who hang out at the archery range who really don't know what they are talking about.  On the other hand there are many who really do know their stuff.
                                     
                                    For me it is a hobby, but like all my hobbies, I'm obsessed.  Currently I have 14 bows hanging in my garage.  I also have about 6 crossbows.  Every hand bow has at least one dozen arrows matched to it, in most cases more than one dozen.  I also have a whole bucket full of practice arrows.  For good if not best results, arrows have to be matched to the bow.  I also make my own quivers and other leather stuff.  So I'm in the deep end of the archery pool and loving it.
                                     
                                    kog
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                    Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:37 PM
                                    To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                     





                                    Greetings,


                                    Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually
                                    blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the
                                    bow? You have answered questions I have had about the bow
                                    for a quite a long time.

                                    The bow has never really been of major interest but your posts
                                    have given me a new insight  and respect for the weapon. I have
                                    learned allot. I really appreciate you taking the time with me.



                                    With Much Respect,
                                    Thomas



                                    "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"
                                    /hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned
                                    .



                                  • Keat Cahoon
                                    yea. i am excited to be able to see you both. i have a new toy that i want to show you. and am i allowed on the thrown weapons range or is that for people who
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      yea. i am excited to be able to see you both. i have a new toy that i want to show you. and am i allowed on the thrown weapons range or is that for people who really know how to throw weapons? i cannot wait. are you going to be there friday night or are you day tripping?

                                      with much excitment
                                      lady rose mcdade

                                    • John Atkins
                                      Any one can throw on the range. We are planning on day tripping. We have a friend in Charlotte we will most likely be staying with Friday night, driving to
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 21, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Message
                                        Any one can throw on the range.  We are planning on day tripping.  We have a friend in Charlotte we will most likely be staying with Friday night, driving to site for the event, then returning to her place Saturday eve.
                                         
                                        kog
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keat Cahoon
                                        Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 10:10 PM
                                        To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                         

                                        yea. i am excited to be able to see you both. i have a new toy that i want to show you. and am i allowed on the thrown weapons range or is that for people who really know how to throw weapons? i cannot wait. are you going to be there friday night or are you day tripping?

                                        with much excitment
                                        lady rose mcdade

                                      • Gideon D
                                        Hello Thomas, glad to see that you made it! Welcome to Lyonnesse, I believe that you ll find a lot of knowledge embodied in our members and all of us willing
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 22, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hello Thomas, glad to see that you made it!

                                          Welcome to Lyonnesse, I believe that you'll find a lot of knowledge embodied in our members and all of us willing to share.
                                          My contribution is one of my favorite books:
                                          "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" and here is link to a review:

                                          http://historymedren.about.com/od/armorandweaponry/fr/edge_paddock.htm

                                          I've checked, this book is readily available at amazon.com and was the first book of its type that I've ever earned. I love it and refer to it often.

                                          Welcome and Good Luck!
                                          --Edmond--


                                          --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hello
                                          >
                                          > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                                          > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                                          > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                                          >
                                          > I have always loved military history as far back
                                          > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                                          > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                                          > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                                          > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                                          > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                                          > is this has always been a passion.
                                          >
                                          > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                                          > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                                          > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                                          > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                                          > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                                          > for any help that I could get.
                                          >
                                          > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                                          > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                                          > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                                          > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                                          > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                                          > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                                          >
                                          > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                                          > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                                          > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                                          > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                                          > letting me join.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > With Respect,
                                          > Thomas
                                          >
                                        • thomas bert
                                          Greetings Edmond Yes I recently joined and I am usually quite tentative. This group seems to have many helpful and kind folks. Your suggestion of Arms and
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 22, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment



                                            Greetings Edmond


                                            Yes I recently joined and I am usually quite tentative.
                                            This group seems to have many helpful and kind folks.
                                            Your suggestion of "Arms and Armor of the Medieval
                                            Knight" really sounds like an excellent book especially
                                            for a novice like me. I will put it on my wish list. I am
                                            grateful for the warm welcome.


                                            With Respect,
                                            Thomas



                                            "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                                             
                                            Hello Thomas, glad to see that you made it!

                                            Welcome to Lyonnesse, I believe that you'll find a lot of knowledge embodied in our members and all of us willing to share.
                                            My contribution is one of my favorite books:
                                            "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" and here is link to a review:

                                            http://historymedren.about.com/od/armorandweaponry/fr/edge_paddock.htm

                                            I've checked, this book is readily available at amazon.com and was the first book of its type that I've ever earned. I love it and refer to it often.

                                            Welcome and Good Luck!
                                            --Edmond--

                                            --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hello
                                            >
                                            > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                                            > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                                            > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                                            >
                                            > I have always loved military history as far back
                                            > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                                            > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                                            > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                                            > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                                            > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                                            > is this has always been a passion.
                                            >
                                            > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                                            > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                                            > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                                            > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                                            > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                                            > for any help that I could get.
                                            >
                                            > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                                            > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                                            > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                                            > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                                            > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                                            > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                                            >
                                            > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                                            > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                                            > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                                            > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                                            > letting me join.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > With Respect,
                                            > Thomas
                                            >


                                          • thomas bert
                                            Greetings, I want to thank you again your reply. I am sure that everyone could use a little zen nowadays. I am glad that archery gives you that. Having to
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 22, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment






                                              Greetings,


                                              I want to thank you again your reply. I am sure that
                                              everyone could use a little zen nowadays. I am glad
                                              that archery gives you that.

                                              Having to practice 5000 times I think that it would
                                              take me 10,000 times so that I do not end up shooting
                                              myself! I guess that that is partly why I have other aspects
                                              that interesting me.

                                              I have seen Byron Ferguson on t.v. He his really is amazing
                                              what he can achieve. His passion is certainly deeper than
                                              mine.

                                              If I ever do decide to get into the art of the bow I would
                                              probably have to save up my pennies if I do consider to take
                                              it up. As far as cash goes yes the $40 start kit would
                                              be ideal but I am not very skilled. Although if I did want to
                                              start I am sure that after gaining experience I would
                                              develop those needed skills.

                                              I have always been fascinated with the battles of Crecy and
                                              Agincourt. I haven't really given the archery aspect much
                                              thought to be honest. It is quite interesting though.

                                              Merlin's story is astounding and inspiring. There just is
                                              nothing that can dampen the human spirit and when
                                              one has great passion one as the essence of life.

                                              I shall ponder about getting into the bow. Your help
                                              has really given me a new respect for this ancient
                                              weapon.

                                              You are certainly knowledgeable and very kind. I really
                                              do appreciate your time and effort in dealing with the
                                              new guy. You have me gratitude.

                                              I look forward to many more discussions and I hope to
                                              learn more and to eventually be able to be a helpful and
                                              productive member of this list.


                                              With Much Respect,
                                              Thomas



                                              "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"











                                              To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: cogworks@...
                                              Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:39:51 -0400
                                              Subject: RE: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                               

                                              Thomas,
                                              Atlantia has a thing they call Royal Rounds.  It is a method for archers throughout the kingdom to compare themselfs as well as with archers in other kingdoms (the Royal Round is standardized throughout the SCA).  A Royal Round is six shafts at 20, 30, and 40 yards untimed and as many as you can get off in 30 seconds at 20 yards.  Scoring is on a standard FITA five ring target 5 - 1 from inner most color to outer most.  Thus a perfect 6 shaft end (shot at the prescribed yardage) would be 30 points.  Using a $100 bow I was able to record an average of 80.  Now my bows cost a bit more with my most expensive being in the $750 range.  However my scores are not substantially higher.  The best average I have ever been able to attain thus far is 90.  So, like my comment in my previous post, skill makes up for technology.  Rudder Bows makes some fine wooden bows for under or around $100.  Should even this be a strain on your budget, and I can fully appreciate that, they offer "finish it yourself" kits starting about $40.  I know several who have purchased these kits and made some very fine bows and are shooting quite well with them.  So my point is one does not need a Black Widow (about $1000 or more) or a Yumi (about $2000 and going up from there) to get great scores.  The entire secret of archery, and something I left out in my previous post of how I got started, is that archery is a zen like experience.  To get good, or to satisfy yourself that you can hit what you aim at with a degree of regularity, all it takes is focus and practice.  When I'm shooting well, whatever is "outside" I am not aware of.  As Mell Gibson said in Patriot "aim small, miss small".
                                               
                                              Shooting involves four basic steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.  The draw takes some strength and you can build up to it (more later on this!).  The anchor defines where you stop the draw.  My instructional starting point is the web of your hand at the base of your thumb goes to the point of your jaw.  Another anchor point is your index finger tip rests at the corner of your mouth.  Aiming is simply a matter of getting your aiming eye over the shaft.  This involves a slight tilt of the head.  The other issue then becomes how much elevation for the distance you are shooting.  This is determined only over time with your bow and your arrows.  The last part is the release.  The release is little more than simply stop holding the string.  You relax your draw hand and let the string pull out of it.  Your draw hand should do one of two things stay at your anchor point or move back to rest on your rear shoulder.  A beginner mistake is for the draw hand to fly away from the face doing what we call the balerina.  This pulls the string away from your face and the back of arrow causing the arrow to waggle ro swim as it goes down range.  Once you determine your personal draw, anchor, aim, release process all that's needed is to do it 5000 times so it becomes automatic.  And that translates into practice.  Of course having a place to practice helps a great deal but it is possible to practice archery in an appratment.  NO!  I am not suggesting you line up a room mate and have them hold paper plates in front of them across the room, although with some room mates I've had in the past I like the idea!!  Get a plastic trash can and put some pillows or a wadded up blanket you don't want any more in the bottom third of it.  Mount it on a wall so it is horizontal.  That is, the open end, top, is facing away from the wall.  Take one arrow and take the point off so it is blunt.  Stand about 3 - 4 feet from the top of the trash can and practice draw, anchor, aim, release.  There you go, practice in an appartment!  Byron Ferguson, the guy who shoots asprins out of the air does this with a burlap bag hanging in a tree.  He stands so close he shoots, steps forward to withdraw the arrow and shoots again.  It really is about the four steps, draw, anchor, aim, release.
                                               
                                              So how much would it cost to get started?  $40 for a finish it yourself bow (or less for a good bow from eBay or garage sale - I've got way more points on how to buy a used bow that I can share if you are interested in this) and 6 arrows at about $6 per arrow max.  Of course you WILL get hooked and want more, but that's down the line.  But for under $100 you're in the game and actually realizing what it meant to be one of those yeoman on the battle field at Crecy or Agincourt.  When we do demos for schools in the area I have the participating archers do a draw, hold, release on command so the kids get an idea of that it would be like to have 5000 to 7000 arrows falling on the target all at once.  It is impressive!
                                               
                                              As for questions or discussions about aspects of the Middle Ages and particularly archery I'm here and obvious, mostly because I type really fast, am more than willing to enter in discussions.
                                               
                                              Now not knowing you but thinking in terms of physical limitations let just share with you one individual who attends Pennsic, the world's largest gathering of SCA folk this year 10,000 but usually more like 15 to 20 thousand.  Merlin suffered a tragic accident some years past and is confined to a wheel chair.  He acts as a marshal, safety officer, on the range at Pennsic every single day.  He still shoots.  Yes, even from his wheel chair and he is a formidable archer.  I know of several folks who have had shoulder operations that used to shoot bows in the 50 pound range or more but are not shooting bows of much less poundage due to the operations.  In fact the latest record breaking arrow flight distance shot was set by a youth in England with a 25 pound bow.  Once does not need high poundage bows to be a good shooter.  Bdugets permitting, I encourage you to join in.
                                               
                                              kog
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                              Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:09 PM
                                              To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                               






                                              There are so many things that I want to do but I do not really
                                              have the skill or money at that moment. I am happy for you. It
                                              really is a blessing to be able to do what ones loves. I look
                                              forward to many more enjoyable conversations.



                                              With Respect,
                                              Thomas




                                              "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                                               

                                              email is an imprecise method of communication.  Things are often misunderstood via it.  No issues.
                                               
                                              My lady and I have been members of the SCA for over 10 years.  When we first joined we did combat archery, where you actually get to shoot people.  The SCA doodled with the rules which made the cost of amo sky rocket then they went from touch kill for CAs to full contact wherein CAs have no means to protect themselfs nor blunt a killing blow.  As most heavies really hate CAs this opens one up to serious heavy abuse (not that that will happen in all cases).  Most CAs select the activity because they choose not to expose their bodies to the damage experienced by the heavies.  But that started an interest in the bow.
                                               
                                              During my CA time I did a bit of target archery but was not very good.  We were also doing it in Florida and the Florida summer was just to brutal for real interest.  When we moved to NC my criteria for a house was that I could shoot a bow in my yard without freaking out the neighbors.  As it turns out we live on 4 1/2 acres so I have a very nice home range.  I started shooting regularly.  OK, in truth I started shooting with aluminum arrows at hay bales I rather stupidly placed on cinder blocks.  After going through three dozen arrows in short order I learned that if I angled the blocks the arrows would glance off instead of breaking.  DUHH!!  Now days it's not an issue because I don't hit the cinder blocks any more.
                                               
                                              My SCA kingdom is Atlantian which ranges from Maryland to Georgia and is one of the strongest kingdoms in the SCA for archery.  As such, there were lots of opportunities for target archery at events.  I got hooked.  Like everything I get involved with, if I like it I jump all the way in.  Fortunately for me I work out of a home office so when I need a break, several times a day, I go out to my garage, string up a bow and shoot a few arrows.  I also find a basic beauty to a well made traditional bow versus the ugly yet practical appearance of a modern compound bow.  I call the compounds arrow launching machines.  Somewhere along the way I read a line that said that primatives make up for their lack of technology with skill.  I have read this backed up by hunters who use traditional gear.  They are out practicing and warming up while their modern compound buddies are inside drinking and eating.  I'm not here to knock compound bows, I just prefer the skill required and beauty of traditional gear.
                                               
                                              As with anything I'm very interested in, I read everything I can get my hands on.  I ask lots of questions of people I trust and know really know their stuff.  There are a lot of folks in the SCA who hang out at the archery range who really don't know what they are talking about.  On the other hand there are many who really do know their stuff.
                                               
                                              For me it is a hobby, but like all my hobbies, I'm obsessed.  Currently I have 14 bows hanging in my garage.  I also have about 6 crossbows.  Every hand bow has at least one dozen arrows matched to it, in most cases more than one dozen.  I also have a whole bucket full of practice arrows.  For good if not best results, arrows have to be matched to the bow.  I also make my own quivers and other leather stuff.  So I'm in the deep end of the archery pool and loving it.
                                               
                                              kog
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                              Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:37 PM
                                              To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                               





                                              Greetings,


                                              Okay that is my fault I did not mean that the jerkin actually
                                              blunted the arrow. How did you come to be so interested in the
                                              bow? You have answered questions I have had about the bow
                                              for a quite a long time.

                                              The bow has never really been of major interest but your posts
                                              have given me a new insight  and respect for the weapon. I have
                                              learned allot. I really appreciate you taking the time with me.



                                              With Much Respect,
                                              Thomas



                                              "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"
                                              /hide.  In period and today cow hides are either vegetable tanned or chromium tanned.  Veg tanned leather is light beige in color and used for tooling, stamping and most leather craft projects.  Crome tanned
                                              .




                                            • thomas bert
                                              Good day to you! Yes it does seem that getting into the bow would be comparatively cheaper than the foot soldier role. Yes I totally agree that kog really
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 22, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment




                                                Good day to you!


                                                Yes it does seem that getting into the bow would be comparatively
                                                cheaper than the foot soldier role. Yes I totally agree that kog
                                                really knows his stuff and I am grateful for answering all of my
                                                questions.

                                                I myself am in financial difficulties. I do construction work but things
                                                have been slow lately. I am sure that with practice one can develop
                                                many useful skills and save quite a bit of money. That is why I need
                                                to keep focused and what aspects of medieval warfare that I am
                                                more interested in.

                                                Yes if I do decide to get into archery I would guess that somewhere
                                                I could find bows and a reasonable price. As a matter of fact I heard
                                                that there was a guy around here that made  English longbows.
                                                However he was to expensive for my friend. So I know if I do get
                                                into archery I should not have a problem finding what I need.

                                                I am amazed at how helpful and friendly all of you are, especially
                                                to a guy that you really do not know. I would love to one day meet
                                                all of you and express my appreciation.



                                                With Respect,
                                                Thomas




                                                "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                                                 

















                                                good day thomas,

                                                i have found that archery is one of the most inexpensive hobbies that one can get into in the sca. another friend got me back into archery, but i have found out so much more from kog.

                                                i am a student at the moment, and am also in a financial bind. i am having to buy cheap aluminum arrows that are all black. it is not truly authentic, but it works. i have also heard that making your own arrows can cut down on cost. it is just one of those things that pay off over a long period of time.

                                                and i am sure that you can find decent bows. i would recommend a maker, but they have gone out of business. i recommend finding people in your kingdom like kog that can give you better advice on that front.

                                                hope that you find out what you like and have a great time doing it. all of us here in lyonnesse get to meet you someday.

                                                sincerely
                                                Lady Rose McDade


                                              • Gideon D
                                                Thomas, Glad to be of service and a pleasure to have you with us. Most cordially, --Edmond--
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 22, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Thomas,

                                                  Glad to be of service and a pleasure to have you with us.

                                                  Most cordially,
                                                  --Edmond--

                                                  --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, thomas bert <tbe4u@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Greetings Edmond
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yes I recently joined and I am usually quite tentative.
                                                  > This group seems to have many helpful and kind folks.
                                                  > Your suggestion of "Arms and Armor of the Medieval
                                                  > Knight" really sounds like an excellent book especially
                                                  > for a novice like me. I will put it on my wish list. I am
                                                  > grateful for the warm welcome.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > With Respect,
                                                  > Thomas
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hello Thomas, glad to see that you made it!
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Welcome to Lyonnesse, I believe that you'll find a lot of knowledge embodied in our members and all of us willing to share.
                                                  >
                                                  > My contribution is one of my favorite books:
                                                  >
                                                  > "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" and here is link to a review:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > http://historymedren.about.com/od/armorandweaponry/fr/edge_paddock.htm
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I've checked, this book is readily available at amazon.com and was the first book of its type that I've ever earned. I love it and refer to it often.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Welcome and Good Luck!
                                                  >
                                                  > --Edmond--
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com, "Ares" <tbe4u@> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Hello
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Okay I am the new guy. I am pleased that I
                                                  >
                                                  > > can join this group of yours. I know that it
                                                  >
                                                  > > is not large but that not not mean poor quality.
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > I have always loved military history as far back
                                                  >
                                                  > > as I can remmber. I have been interested in learning
                                                  >
                                                  > > of the 200 years of Outremer and pretty much all
                                                  >
                                                  > > eras of English warfare. I also have been interested
                                                  >
                                                  > > in the Knights Templars. I know you are probably
                                                  >
                                                  > > thinking that boy has seen to many movies. The fact
                                                  >
                                                  > > is this has always been a passion.
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > I have to confess that I know virtually nothing
                                                  >
                                                  > > about these subjects. That is not lack of trying
                                                  >
                                                  > > I have to read things twelve times in order for it
                                                  >
                                                  > > to sink into my brain. I have been told that you
                                                  >
                                                  > > guys really know your stuff. I would be appreciative
                                                  >
                                                  > > for any help that I could get.
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > I know that my interests are spanning a many
                                                  >
                                                  > > centuries but they are just so fascintating. Like
                                                  >
                                                  > > I said I am into the whole span of Outremer and for
                                                  >
                                                  > > English history anything from King Alfred the Great
                                                  >
                                                  > > to the death of King Richard III. I am more drawn
                                                  >
                                                  > > to the mounted knight and foot soldiers.
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Is there any books that you folks could recommend?
                                                  >
                                                  > > I will probably have many questions but I would love
                                                  >
                                                  > > to be a productive member of this list. I hope that
                                                  >
                                                  > > this post is not to rambling. Again thanks for
                                                  >
                                                  > > letting me join.
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > With Respect,
                                                  >
                                                  > > Thomas
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • John Atkins
                                                  Thomas, Not sure if I replied to this post yet or not, but my two cents worth says that getting into archery is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than getting into armor
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 24, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Message
                                                    Thomas,
                                                    Not sure if I replied to this post yet or not, but my two cents worth says that getting into archery is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than getting into armor and fighting.  If your intent is to armor up for the purpose of participating in the fighting the required helmet alone could easily cost as much as an entire archery kit.  On the other hand considering you are likely to be hit with a ratan weapon, that would be solid bamboo, then having safe armor is not a choice but mandatory.  The object is to have fun and not kill each other.  I personally have an armor kit for a military archer which includes a full chain mail shirt, coif and kettle helm.  I also have a basinet from my combat archer days.  For the military archer I also have an archer's short sword and an archer's ax.  I use this stuff for demos only, I have retired from the combat archery - too much dinking around with the rules, the knights hate archers and do everything in their power to remove the activity, and the amo has gotten very expensive, about $5 per and you should have at least 100 shafts when you go to war.  So now days I observe and advise combat archer wannabees.
                                                     
                                                    kog
                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 11:59 AM
                                                    To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                                     





                                                    Good day to you!


                                                    Yes it does seem that getting into the bow would be comparatively
                                                    cheaper than the foot soldier role. Yes I totally agree that kog
                                                    really knows his stuff and I am grateful for answering all of my
                                                    questions.

                                                    I myself am in financial difficulties. I do construction work but things
                                                    have been slow lately. I am sure that with practice one can develop
                                                    many useful skills and save quite a bit of money. That is why I need
                                                    to keep focused and what aspects of medieval warfare that I am
                                                    more interested in.

                                                    Yes if I do decide to get into archery I would guess that somewhere
                                                    I could find bows and a reasonable price. As a matter of fact I heard
                                                    that there was a guy around here that made  English longbows.
                                                    However he was to expensive for my friend. So I know if I do get
                                                    into archery I should not have a problem finding what I need.

                                                    I am amazed at how helpful and friendly all of you are, especially
                                                    to a guy that you really do not know. I would love to one day meet
                                                    all of you and express my appreciation.



                                                    With Respect,
                                                    Thomas




                                                    "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                                                     

















                                                    good day thomas,

                                                    i have found that archery is one of the most inexpensive hobbies that one can get into in the sca. another friend got me back into archery, but i have found out so much more from kog.

                                                    i am a student at the moment, and am also in a financial bind. i am having to buy cheap aluminum arrows that are all black. it is not truly authentic, but it works. i have also heard that making your own arrows can cut down on cost. it is just one of those things that pay off over a long period of time.

                                                    and i am sure that you can find decent bows. i would recommend a maker, but they have gone out of business. i recommend finding people in your kingdom like kog that can give you better advice on that front.

                                                    hope that you find out what you like and have a great time doing it. all of us here in lyonnesse get to meet you someday.

                                                    sincerely
                                                    Lady Rose McDade


                                                  • thomas bert
                                                    Greetings, Thank you again for the advice you have been very kind and helpful. I can only imagine the cost for a fully armed knight/foot soldier but I am not
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 24, 2010
                                                    • 0 Attachment





                                                      Greetings,


                                                      Thank you again for the advice you have been very kind
                                                      and helpful. I can only imagine the cost for a fully armed
                                                      knight/foot soldier but I am not adverse to saving up my
                                                      pennies. As for getting hit by a ratan weapon goes I
                                                      sometimes think that a few people believe that I already
                                                      have been!

                                                      You seem to have all of the accouterments needed, that could
                                                      not have been cheap either. Since you are not doing combat
                                                      archery it is good that you can still be involved and educate.
                                                      That is a noble endeavor.

                                                      I am grateful for your time and effort. You are a good man and
                                                      I look forward to discussions that we might have. I wish you
                                                      all the best.


                                                      With Much Respect,
                                                      Thomas


                                                      "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"














                                                      To: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                                      From: cogworks@...
                                                      Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:26:28 -0400
                                                      Subject: RE: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                                       

                                                      Thomas,
                                                      Not sure if I replied to this post yet or not, but my two cents worth says that getting into archery is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than getting into armor and fighting.  If your intent is to armor up for the purpose of participating in the fighting the required helmet alone could easily cost as much as an entire archery kit.  On the other hand considering you are likely to be hit with a ratan weapon, that would be solid bamboo, then having safe armor is not a choice but mandatory.  The object is to have fun and not kill each other.  I personally have an armor kit for a military archer which includes a full chain mail shirt, coif and kettle helm.  I also have a basinet from my combat archer days.  For the military archer I also have an archer's short sword and an archer's ax.  I use this stuff for demos only, I have retired from the combat archery - too much dinking around with the rules, the knights hate archers and do everything in their power to remove the activity, and the amo has gotten very expensive, about $5 per and you should have at least 100 shafts when you go to war.  So now days I observe and advise combat archer wannabees.
                                                       
                                                      kog
                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KingdomofLyonnesse@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thomas bert
                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 11:59 AM
                                                      To: kingdomoflyonnesse@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: [KingdomofLyonnesse] Archery

                                                       





                                                      Good day to you!


                                                      Yes it does seem that getting into the bow would be comparatively
                                                      cheaper than the foot soldier role. Yes I totally agree that kog
                                                      really knows his stuff and I am grateful for answering all of my
                                                      questions.

                                                      I myself am in financial difficulties. I do construction work but things
                                                      have been slow lately. I am sure that with practice one can develop
                                                      many useful skills and save quite a bit of money. That is why I need
                                                      to keep focused and what aspects of medieval warfare that I am
                                                      more interested in.

                                                      Yes if I do decide to get into archery I would guess that somewhere
                                                      I could find bows and a reasonable price. As a matter of fact I heard
                                                      that there was a guy around here that made  English longbows.
                                                      However he was to expensive for my friend. So I know if I do get
                                                      into archery I should not have a problem finding what I need.

                                                      I am amazed at how helpful and friendly all of you are, especially
                                                      to a guy that you really do not know. I would love to one day meet
                                                      all of you and express my appreciation.



                                                      With Respect,
                                                      Thomas




                                                      "Bellum Est Pater Omnium"



                                                       

















                                                      good day thomas,

                                                      i have found that archery is one of the most inexpensive hobbies that one can get into in the sca. another friend got me back into archery, but i have found out so much more from kog.

                                                      i am a student at the moment, and am also in a financial bind. i am having to buy cheap aluminum arrows that are all black. it is not truly authentic, but it works. i have also heard that making your own arrows can cut down on cost. it is just one of those things that pay off over a long period of time.

                                                      and i am sure that you can find decent bows. i would recommend a maker, but they have gone out of business. i recommend finding people in your kingdom like kog that can give you better advice on that front.

                                                      hope that you find out what you like and have a great time doing it. all of us here in lyonnesse get to meet you someday.

                                                      sincerely
                                                      Lady Rose McDade




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