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Re: [KoDP] Sleazy Weaponthane Tricks

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  • Bryan Thexton
    I don t think blocking this trick would be worth the effort.  And yes, I do this quite often, especially in early years in peace clans. I do find that the
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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      I don't think blocking this trick would be worth the effort.  And yes, I do this quite often, especially in early years in peace clans.

      I do find that the number of weaponthanes can matter, especially when you don't have a lot of war type blessings active yet nor heroic in combat war leaders.  In other words, sometimes in the short run it is easier to build up weaponthanes than those longer term investments.  Once you have all of those in place, you'll lose so infrequently that a few more warriors doesn't seem to matter as much.

      Actually, something that I don't expect to get changed, but I'll mention it....if you play fairly well, the long game gets boring at the end.  Typically I find that by the time I'm tribal king, my clan has a couple of years supply of food, hundreds of cows worth of goods, large herds, good amounts of land (have usually displaced a neighboring feuding clan by then), solid defenses, well trained leaders, etc.   I suppose it should be possible to win the long game without such excess, but at the same time it would be nice if you faced things that actually stressed you more....like perhaps if the golden horde were more apt to actually pillage you severely?  Or if there would be a (less than totally apocalyptic) attack from your enemies near the end, one strong enough that you would be bound to lose resources in some manner?

      --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Edward Bornstein <button@...> wrote:

      From: Edward Bornstein <button@...>
      Subject: [KoDP] Sleazy Weaponthane Tricks
      To: KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com
      Received: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:18 PM







       









      One thing I was just reminded of was a gamesmanship trick for getting a

      lot of weaponthanes.



      As I recall it, how many weaponthanes was you could recruit was restricted

      by how many you already had, because people resisted getting the clan

      ratios out of balance.



      But I found that if you sent most of you weaponthanes off on a mission,

      you could then recruit a bunch of new ones, and then when the mission came

      back you'd have a huge number of weaponthanes.
























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Meredith Dixon
      ... Evidently I don t play as well as you do, Bryan, because I ve never had that problem. : And I play KoDP a lot. If I ever did get bored, I d start
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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        On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:39, Bryan Thexton <bethexton@...> wrote:
        >
        > Actually, something that I don't expect to get changed, but I'll mention it....if you play fairly well, the long game gets boring at the end.

        Evidently I don't play as well as you do, Bryan, because I've never
        had that problem. :> And I play KoDP a lot. If I ever did get
        bored, I'd start trying to play on Normal rather than Easy. (I've
        tried that only a few times in the years I've been playing KoDP -- and
        I've played it pretty regularly ever since it came out -- and I've
        gotten creamed every time.)


        --
        Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>
        Maconiana has been published at last!
        <http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=4340342>
      • James Sterrett
        ... The confessions come out? Add me to the plays on Easy and gets crushed on Normal list. :) -- James Sterrett james.sterrett@gmail.com
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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          >And I play KoDP a lot. If I ever did get
          > bored, I'd start trying to play on Normal rather than Easy. (I've
          > tried that only a few times in the years I've been playing KoDP -- and
          > I've played it pretty regularly ever since it came out -- and I've
          > gotten creamed every time.)

          The confessions come out?

          Add me to the "plays on Easy and gets crushed on Normal" list. :)

          --
          James Sterrett
          james.sterrett@...
        • outis02
          Hmm, I didn t have the same experience. I found that having, say, more than 20 thanes doesn t significantly increas the chance of winning a battle. I still
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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            Hmm, I didn't have the same experience. I found that having, say, more than 20 thanes doesn't significantly increas the chance of winning a battle. I still got myself wooped at fairly regular interval, despite being having pretty good morale, blessings, etc., and having very good warleaders. Alas, outcomes of war seems very random.

            As for late-game progression, yes it can get quite boring. In early to mid game, you have an interesting event several times an year. But towards late game you can easily go on a few years without any significant event or challenges.

            However, I've ran into a situations where significant food shortage hit all of Dragon Pass in late game. At this point the game became almost unwinnable: I quickly ran out of people to trade with, and eventually died of starvation. This happend to me maybe maybe twice or thrice on Hard.

            --- In KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Thexton <bethexton@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't think blocking this trick would be worth the effort.  And yes, I do this quite often, especially in early years in peace clans.
            >
            > I do find that the number of weaponthanes can matter, especially when you don't have a lot of war type blessings active yet nor heroic in combat war leaders.  In other words, sometimes in the short run it is easier to build up weaponthanes than those longer term investments.  Once you have all of those in place, you'll lose so infrequently that a few more warriors doesn't seem to matter as much.
            >
            > Actually, something that I don't expect to get changed, but I'll mention it....if you play fairly well, the long game gets boring at the end.  Typically I find that by the time I'm tribal king, my clan has a couple of years supply of food, hundreds of cows worth of goods, large herds, good amounts of land (have usually displaced a neighboring feuding clan by then), solid defenses, well trained leaders, etc.   I suppose it should be possible to win the long game without such excess, but at the same time it would be nice if you faced things that actually stressed you more....like perhaps if the golden horde were more apt to actually pillage you severely?  Or if there would be a (less than totally apocalyptic) attack from your enemies near the end, one strong enough that you would be bound to lose resources in some manner?
            >
            > --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Edward Bornstein <button@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: Edward Bornstein <button@...>
            > Subject: [KoDP] Sleazy Weaponthane Tricks
            > To: KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com
            > Received: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:18 PM
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            > One thing I was just reminded of was a gamesmanship trick for getting a
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            > lot of weaponthanes.
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            > As I recall it, how many weaponthanes was you could recruit was restricted
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            > by how many you already had, because people resisted getting the clan
            >
            > ratios out of balance.
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            >
            > But I found that if you sent most of you weaponthanes off on a mission,
            >
            > you could then recruit a bunch of new ones, and then when the mission came
            >
            > back you'd have a huge number of weaponthanes.
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          • Bryan Thexton
            Don t get me wrong.....the first ten years or so are usually nail-biters, tribe making is never a sure thing, and trying to get someone suitable groomed to
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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              Don't get me wrong.....the first ten years or so are usually nail-biters, tribe making is never a sure thing, and trying to get someone suitable groomed to become king or queen and then getting them elected are hard.....it is after that when I find that all the little things you've done (build temples, make trade routes, build fortifications, explore the map, make allies, improve your reputation) accumulate to make the final period fairly stress free.  In other words, overall I find the game gets easier as it goes along, because the challenges don't really scale with your success (if anything they go down, as you've weakened your regular foes more likely than not).  Having the ancestors kill your magic, or getting a plague year, or a run of bad harvests, makes you react.....but it is not usually that threatening by then.

              I don't claim to have some magic play skills, but I've played enough to have a pretty good idea of the 'optimum' choices at each event, which probably does help get all those building blocks put in place more quickly now, compared to when I was first playing ten years ago!

              Which is fine if it ends quickly, but from getting elected king to end of game can run 20 years sometimes, depending on when events trigger! 

              I have a lot of games where I've eventually abandoned them during that home stretch, because there was not much variety or challenge.

              --- On Wed, 9/1/10, James Sterrett <James.Sterrett@...> wrote:

              From: James Sterrett <James.Sterrett@...>
              Subject: Re: [KoDP] Sleazy Weaponthane Tricks
              To: KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 11:38 AM







               









              >And I play KoDP a lot. If I ever did get

              > bored, I'd start trying to play on Normal rather than Easy. (I've

              > tried that only a few times in the years I've been playing KoDP -- and

              > I've played it pretty regularly ever since it came out -- and I've

              > gotten creamed every time.)



              The confessions come out?



              Add me to the "plays on Easy and gets crushed on Normal" list. :)



              --

              James Sterrett

              james.sterrett@...






















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kaj Sotala
              ... I actually *like* this aspect of the game. I get to spend a long time gradually building up my resources and generally just trying to survive, and then
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Bryan Thexton <bethexton@...> wrote:
                > Actually, something that I don't expect to get changed, but I'll mention it....if you play fairly well, the long game gets boring at the end.  Typically I find that by the time I'm tribal king, my clan has a couple of years supply of food, hundreds of cows worth of goods, large herds, good amounts of land (have usually displaced a neighboring feuding clan by then), solid defenses, well trained leaders, etc.

                I actually *like* this aspect of the game. I get to spend a long time
                gradually building up my resources and generally just trying to
                survive, and then gradually I'm rewarded for my efforts as things get
                easier. In the end I don't need to worry too much, but can just enjoy
                the events and show off my superior might to all the other clans,
                which feels just like it should be.

                This is probably related to the fact that I've always found the story
                as told by the events to be the most enjoyable aspect of the game.
                While micromanaging the clan is definitely also fun, it's the events
                that really make the game great. Consequently, being given a period at
                the end where I basically don't need to do any management and can just
                make interesting choices feels like I'm getting a juicy reward. I'm
                guessing that you find the management aspects a lot more intrinsically
                enjoyable than I do.
              • Bryan Thexton
                Quite possibly.  I d probably put it that I like the building for the future part of the game, and after a certain point there is not much point in building
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                  Quite possibly.  I'd probably put it that I like the building for the future part of the game, and after a certain point there is not much point in building anymore (you've got it all pretty much covered), and my interest dwindles.

                  I do like the end game for a while....just not as long as it sometimes takes.  If you get the prax-hater event early enough you have a good chance of a fairly compact end-game, and of recent years those are the clans where I'm most likely to push through.  *shrug* It is not a major issue, I'd just say maybe a tweak in the random number interpreter to make end-game events apt to happen more quickly under certain circumstances would be sufficient to make me happier.  Having one last clan level trial near the end would be a nice-to-have.

                  --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Kaj Sotala <xuenay@...> wrote:
                  I'm

                  guessing that you find the management aspects a lot more intrinsically

                  enjoyable than I do.






                  community/KingOfDragonPass






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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Dunham
                  ... Yes, the game needs to be simpler to appeal to a wider audience, and to be able to finish in a reasonable time frame. And yes, the crop and patrol sliders
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                    > Remove features? Never!

                    Yes, the game needs to be simpler to appeal to a wider audience, and to be able to finish in a reasonable time frame.

                    And yes, the crop and patrol sliders will be gone.

                    > The same goes for adjusting the inner and outer patrols - I always had
                    > a certain fixed ratio of men that I kept on patrol, and never adjusted
                    > it because of shifting morale. If you wanted to keep part of it, you
                    > could make it into a selection with just the options for heavy /
                    > normal / light patrols.

                    IIRC, this would really be a focus on inner vs outer (they had different impacts on detecting raids vs responding to raids). But probably not worth it.

                    > Hopefully you'll fix the bug where the sacred time screen tells you that your herds are overcrowded and starving, while the agricultural screen tells you that you have huge amounts of excess pasture land.

                    Actually, the tula screen is gone.

                    > Another thing I'd like to see is some way of knowing when we are near our limit of temples/shrines, etc.

                    Don't advisors tell you?

                    David Dunham http://a-sharp.com Twitter: @KingDragonPass
                  • Meredith Dixon
                    ... It sounds as though you ve already made that decision, so there s probably no point in arguing about it, but in case you ever port the game to anywhere
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                      On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:46, David Dunham <david@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Actually, the tula screen is gone.

                      It sounds as though you've already made that decision, so there's
                      probably no point in arguing about it, but in case you ever port the
                      game to anywhere else, may I say that the tula screen is one of my
                      favorite parts of the game? I really like having a visual
                      representation of the growth of my clan.



                      --
                      Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>
                      Maconiana has been published at last!
                      <http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=4340342>
                    • Bryan Thexton
                      Seconding that!  I do understand that it may not work on an iphone sized screen, but it really helped give me a sense of my village.  Perhaps something else
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                        Seconding that!  I do understand that it may not work on an iphone sized screen, but it really helped give me a sense of my village.  Perhaps something else could go in that slot, if even a short written description or 'state of the clan' summary?

                        I think that screen was the only place that players saw the tracking of carls versus cottars, so I suppose that could be dropped too (or if easier left in place and never talked about at all).

                        --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...> wrote:

                        From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>
                        Subject: Re: [KoDP] re: Features to cut (was: Statistical ledger)
                        To: KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 1:35 PM







                         









                        On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:46, David Dunham <david@...> wrote:

                        >

                        > Actually, the tula screen is gone.



                        It sounds as though you've already made that decision, so there's

                        probably no point in arguing about it, but in case you ever port the

                        game to anywhere else, may I say that the tula screen is one of my

                        favorite parts of the game? I really like having a visual

                        representation of the growth of my clan.



                        --

                        Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>

                        Maconiana has been published at last!

                        <http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=4340342>






















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kaj Sotala
                        Even though me-too mails are generally frowned upon, I have to third the sentiment. Seeing the tula screen once a year was a strong part of giving you a feel
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                          Even though "me-too" mails are generally frowned upon, I have to third
                          the sentiment.

                          Seeing the tula screen once a year was a strong part of giving you a
                          feel of accomplishment and feedback. You could see what had changed
                          since last year, and could probably connect at least some of the
                          changes to your actions. In a game like KoDP, the exact effect of your
                          actions on the underlying variables is often vague - as it should be,
                          for otherwise it loses part of the atmosphere and becomes a dressed-up
                          Excel. But it's important to still give the player some sort of
                          feedback, and the tula went a long way towards that.

                          On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Bryan Thexton <bethexton@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Seconding that!  I do understand that it may not work on an iphone sized screen, but it really helped give me a sense of my village.  Perhaps something else could go in that slot, if even a short written description or 'state of the clan' summary?
                          >
                          > I think that screen was the only place that players saw the tracking of carls versus cottars, so I suppose that could be dropped too (or if easier left in place and never talked about at all).
                          >
                          > --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [KoDP] re: Features to cut (was: Statistical ledger)
                          > To: KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com
                          > Received: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 1:35 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:46, David Dunham <david@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Actually, the tula screen is gone.
                          >
                          > It sounds as though you've already made that decision, so there's
                          >
                          > probably no point in arguing about it, but in case you ever port the
                          >
                          > game to anywhere else, may I say that the tula screen is one of my
                          >
                          > favorite parts of the game? I really like having a visual
                          >
                          > representation of the growth of my clan.
                          >
                          > --
                          >
                          > Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>
                          >
                          > Maconiana has been published at last!
                          >
                          > <http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=4340342>
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                        • Bryan Thexton
                          Not really.  I think that at times on the diplomacy screen it is mentioned that if we have more allies we can support more temples, and on the trade screen
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                            Not really.  I think that at times on the diplomacy screen it is mentioned that if we have more allies we can support more temples, and on the trade screen that trade routes give us more good to help support more temples....but if those only show up under certain conditions I've not noticed.

                            I think maybe once you are maxed out an advisor tells you that if we want to build more temples we need to recruit more people to the clan, or something like that.  I don't recall warnings of being close to the edge.

                            It is not a really big deal, but there are times where I've done something like expanded my Ernalda shrine to a temple with some fairly unimportant blessing (planning on moving to a great temple soon), then when I go to build the important shrine Challana Arroy (having finally gotten a blessing that will support a shrine) I find that I can't....unless I tear something down.  If I'd known we were near the edge I'd have held off building the temple.

                            on another note: Challana Arroy, I almost never use the Hope blessing, as it seems to have a pretty minor impact.  I'd either make it more effective (scale with sacrifice size?) or maybe cut it....the latter has the benefits of both getting rid of one more thing and of making it easier to get the blessings you want early on.

                            I can't think of any other blessing that I care about as little, but others might have ideas of blessings they never use?  (OK, I care about pig blessing mostly from a story point of view, or ability to support a great temple, but I do use it.  Still would not mind seeing it replaced with something else....Ernalda in another of her aspects maybe, if it was not too hard to code in something magic or ruling related)

                            --- On Wed, 9/1/10, David Dunham <david@...> wrote:




                            > Another thing I'd like to see is some way of knowing when we are near our limit of temples/shrines, etc.



                            Don't advisors tell you?





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • outis02
                            Me too! Or is it Me Three! Meee Four!? But really, I can t add anything that s already been said. If anything, I think the player should get to see this
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                              Me too! Or is it Me Three! Meee Four!?

                              But really, I can't add anything that's already been said. If anything, I think the player should get to see this screen more often. It's the only graphical representation of your clan, and it has an immediacy that simply cannot be compared to by the numbers.

                              --- In KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com, Kaj Sotala <xuenay@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Even though "me-too" mails are generally frowned upon, I have to third
                              > the sentiment.
                              >
                              > Seeing the tula screen once a year was a strong part of giving you a
                              > feel of accomplishment and feedback. You could see what had changed
                              > since last year, and could probably connect at least some of the
                              > changes to your actions. In a game like KoDP, the exact effect of your
                              > actions on the underlying variables is often vague - as it should be,
                              > for otherwise it loses part of the atmosphere and becomes a dressed-up
                              > Excel. But it's important to still give the player some sort of
                              > feedback, and the tula went a long way towards that.
                              >
                              > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Bryan Thexton <bethexton@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Seconding that!  I do understand that it may not work on an iphone sized screen, but it really helped give me a sense of my village.  Perhaps something else could go in that slot, if even a short written description or 'state of the clan' summary?
                              > >
                              > > I think that screen was the only place that players saw the tracking of carls versus cottars, so I suppose that could be dropped too (or if easier left in place and never talked about at all).
                              > >
                              > > --- On Wed, 9/1/10, Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>
                              > > Subject: Re: [KoDP] re: Features to cut (was: Statistical ledger)
                              > > To: KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Received: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 1:35 PM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:46, David Dunham <david@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Actually, the tula screen is gone.
                              > >
                              > > It sounds as though you've already made that decision, so there's
                              > >
                              > > probably no point in arguing about it, but in case you ever port the
                              > >
                              > > game to anywhere else, may I say that the tula screen is one of my
                              > >
                              > > favorite parts of the game? I really like having a visual
                              > >
                              > > representation of the growth of my clan.
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > >
                              > > Meredith Dixon <dixonm@...>
                              > >
                              > > Maconiana has been published at last!
                              > >
                              > > <http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=4340342>
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • outis02
                              ... No, I don t think so. I don t remember exactly how, but I did a whole series of experiments on the requriement for temple building. It was long and
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 1, 2010
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                                --- In KingOfDragonPass@yahoogroups.com, David Dunham <david@...> wrote:
                                > > Another thing I'd like to see is some way of knowing when we are near our limit of temples/shrines, etc.
                                >
                                > Don't advisors tell you?

                                No, I don't think so. I don't remember exactly how, but I did a whole series of experiments on the requriement for temple building. It was long and difficult, but in the end I think I never really figured it out -- there are too many variables.

                                Another thing you could do if you want to make things easy:

                                Make the advices guaranteed to be *right*, or at least helpful. In a normal game, you quickly learn not to trust the advices too much. But for Easy mode anyway, you could effectively turn them into player helpers rather than semi-random noise.
                              • David Dunham
                                ... Yes, it definitely served a purpose. But if I remember right, there were an insane number of elements to hook up. ... I don t think they re actually
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 2, 2010
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                                  > may I say that the tula screen is one of my
                                  > favorite parts of the game? I really like having a visual
                                  > representation of the growth of my clan.


                                  Yes, it definitely served a purpose. But if I remember right, there were an insane number of elements to hook up.

                                  > I think that screen was the only place that players saw the tracking of carls versus cottars, so I suppose that could be dropped too (or if easier left in place and never talked about at all).

                                  I don't think they're actually tracked separately. Probably this has to do more with cows and sheep.

                                  David Dunham http://a-sharp.com Twitter: @KingDragonPass
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