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RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

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  • Baldev Kandola
    Why are these people ( Sikhs ) wearing funny gowns - a stark exhibition of their slave history!!!! Shamefull!! What happened to their great Sikh tradition of
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005

      Why are these people (“Sikhs”) wearing funny gowns – a stark exhibition of their slave history!!!! Shamefull!!

       

      What happened to their great Sikh tradition of learning ?

       

      5abi.com

       

       

      ......................................

       


      From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kartarpur@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of amarduggal@...
      Sent: 30 November 2005 17:37
      To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com; ChaanPardesi@...
      Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

       

       "tribute to Gurmukh Piaraeys, long forgotten due to blood of
      ingratitude."

       

       

      Can we all agree that along with remembering the militant part of Singhs and this brave history that we are part of,   we need to emphasize on other contributions of Singh / Sikhs and our beloved Gurus. We need to move fast and catch up with what is relevant today as well.

       

      Now do not take me wrong, the bravery that Singhs have shown and gurus have taught us, is integral part of our system,  but we need to recognize that we live in a world where bravery is advancement in technology and science.

       

      let's encourage our next generation to make that as a battle ground, and defeat the challenger, this competitive mode and mood will shine Khalsa ji even more.

      Thanks again

      Amar

      Duggal

      let's light this lamp for the shake of sikhs


    • amarduggal@aol.com
      You must be Baldev kumar? ... From: Baldev Kandola To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:53:49 -0000 Subject: RE:
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
        You must be Baldev kumar?  
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Baldev Kandola <b.kandola@...>
        To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:53:49 -0000
        Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

        Why are these people ("Sikhs") wearing funny gowns - a stark exhibition of their slave history!!!! Shamefull!!
         
        What happened to their great Sikh tradition of learning ?
         
        5abi.com
         
         
        ......................................
         

        From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kartarpur@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of amarduggal@...
        Sent: 30 November 2005 17:37
        To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com; ChaanPardesi@...
        Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?
         
         "tribute to Gurmukh Piaraeys, long forgotten due to blood of
        ingratitude."
         
         
        Can we all agree that along with remembering the militant part of Singhs and this brave history that we are part of,   we need to emphasize on other contributions of Singh / Sikhs and our beloved Gurus. We need to move fast and catch up with what is relevant today as well.
         
        Now do not take me wrong, the bravery that Singhs have shown and gurus have taught us, is integral part of our system,  but we need to recognize that we live in a world where bravery is advancement in technology and science.
         
        let's encourage our next generation to make that as a battle ground, and defeat the challenger, this competitive mode and mood will shine Khalsa ji even more.
        Thanks again
        Amar
        Duggal
        let's light this lamp for the shake of sikhs



        ---------------------------------------------------------
        This group is dedicated to millions of Punjabis separated by the barbed-border. Primarily it seeks passport/visa-free 3 km long corridor from Indian side to the first shrine of Sikhs namely Kartarpur sahib, Narowal  for which Pakistan Govt has agreed in principle. See http://www.kartarpur.com. Besides day to day discussions we will keep the members posted with the latest developments on this Corridor movement and some Sikh and Punjabi issues as well.




        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




      • Tarlochan S. Nahal
        Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh Dear Baldev Kandola Ji, I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
           
          Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
          Waheguru Ji Ki fateh
           
          Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,
           
          I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.
           
          Certainly there has been a great Sikh tradition of learning arts, philosophy, languages, and religion. Sikh by defintion, is a  student and the educational process started with Guru Nanak Dev. However, if you look back just over one century (just before 1892 before Khalsa College Amritsar was established), there were hardly any schools of higher learning in Punjab that really prepared Sikhs for advanced sciences and modern education. Almost all the modern scientifc, engineering, technical, and medical, education is based on western sciences. If you look at the number of students in the Sikh seminaries like Taksal or some deras, you will not ffnd no more than few hundred students altogether in Punjab. . These schools have produced some highly respected scholars and historians and poets. There will hardly be girls among them. What these schools do is important, but it is neither the culmination nor the end of Sikh learning. It is just the start! Have you seen any engineer, programmer, professor, Ph.D., physician, or scientist among them?
           
          Do you consider the long gone education  of Gurmukhi letters by the village Granthi the great academic tradition or achievement? All religions have Sunday schools or similar educational systems. Hindus, Muslims, Christains, and Buddhists all have them!
           
          It was Guru Gobind Singh himself who sent his best students to Kashi (center of Hindu learning at that time) for higher learning. Those are known as the "Nirmalas." The Sikhs have thrived so far because of their faith in the Guru and their education. They simply cannot afford to deviate from these.
           
          Sikhism is fully compatible with higher learning. In fact, higher learning is very much the need of the hour. Few years in Taksal or Sikh missionary college can certainly prepare one for Sikh missionary jobs and religious studues and I am not trying to downplay their importance, but that are neither qualified nor equipped to impart modern scientifc, literary, engineering and technical knowledge which is extremely important in this world in order to survive. Education is key to success not only for the Sikh nation, but for any nation.
           
          Gur Fateh
           
          Tarlochan Singh
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:53 AM
          Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

          Why are these people (“Sikhs”) wearing funny gowns – a stark exhibition of their slave history!!!! Shamefull!!

           

          What happened to their great Sikh tradition of learning ?

           

          5abi.com

           

           

          ......................................

           


          From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kartarpur@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of amarduggal@...
          Sent: 30 November 2005 17:37
          To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com; ChaanPardesi@...
          Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

           

           "tribute to Gurmukh Piaraeys, long forgotten due to blood of
          ingratitude."

           

           

          Can we all agree that along with remembering the militant part of Singhs and this brave history that we are part of,   we need to emphasize on other contributions of Singh / Sikhs and our beloved Gurus. We need to move fast and catch up with what is relevant today as well.

           

          Now do not take me wrong, the bravery that Singhs have shown and gurus have taught us, is integral part of our system,  but we need to recognize that we live in a world where bravery is advancement in technology and science.

           

          let's encourage our next generation to make that as a battle ground, and defeat the challenger, this competitive mode and mood will shine Khalsa ji even more.

          Thanks again

          Amar

          Duggal

          let's light this lamp for the shake of sikhs


        • amarduggal@aol.com
          Why in the world you have to explain any thing to some one named Baldev kumar. Melay asant massat hoi rehiay ... From: Tarlochan S. Nahal
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
            Why in the world you have to explain any thing to some one named Baldev kumar. "Melay asant massat hoi rehiay" 
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tarlochan S. Nahal <nahal@...>
            To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: nahal@...
            Sent: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:26:47 -0800
            Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

             
            Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
            Waheguru Ji Ki fateh
             
            Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,
             
            I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.
             
            Certainly there has been a great Sikh tradition of learning arts, philosophy, languages, and religion. Sikh by defintion, is a  student and the educational process started with Guru Nanak Dev. However, if you look back just over one century (just before 1892 before Khalsa College Amritsar was established), there were hardly any schools of higher learning in Punjab that really prepared Sikhs for advanced sciences and modern education. Almost all the modern scientifc, engineering, technical, and medical, education is based on western sciences. If you look at the number of students in the Sikh seminaries like Taksal or some deras, you will not ffnd no more than few hundred students altogether in Punjab. . These schools have produced some highly respected scholars and historians and poets. There will hardly be girls among them. What these schools do is important, but it is neither the culmination nor the end of Sikh learning. It is just the start! Have you seen any engineer, programmer, professor, Ph.D., physician, or scientist among them?
             
            Do you consider the long gone education  of Gurmukhi letters by the village Granthi the great academic tradition or achievement? All religions have Sunday schools or similar educational systems. Hindus, Muslims, Christains, and Buddhists all have them!
             
            It was Guru Gobind Singh himself who sent his best students to Kashi (center of Hindu learning at that time) for higher learning. Those are known as the "Nirmalas." The Sikhs have thrived so far because of their faith in the Guru and their education. They simply cannot afford to deviate from these.
             
            Sikhism is fully compatible with higher learning. In fact, higher learning is very much the need of the hour. Few years in Taksal or Sikh missionary college can certainly prepare one for Sikh missionary jobs and religious studues and I am not trying to downplay their importance, but that are neither qualified nor equipped to impart modern scientifc, literary, engineering and technical knowledge which is extremely important in this world in order to survive. Education is key to success not only for the Sikh nation, but for any nation.
             
            Gur Fateh
             
            Tarlochan Singh
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:53 AM
            Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

            Why are these people ("Sikhs") wearing funny gowns - a stark exhibition of their slave history!!!! Shamefull!!
             
            What happened to their great Sikh tradition of learning ?
             
            5abi.com
             
             
            ......................................
             

            From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kartarpur@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of amarduggal@...
            Sent: 30 November 2005 17:37
            To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com; ChaanPardesi@...
            Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?
             
             "tribute to Gurmukh Piaraeys, long forgotten due to blood of
            ingratitude."
             
             
            Can we all agree that along with remembering the militant part of Singhs and this brave history that we are part of,   we need to emphasize on other contributions of Singh / Sikhs and our beloved Gurus. We need to move fast and catch up with what is relevant today as well.
             
            Now do not take me wrong, the bravery that Singhs have shown and gurus have taught us, is integral part of our system,  but we need to recognize that we live in a world where bravery is advancement in technology and science.
             
            let's encourage our next generation to make that as a battle ground, and defeat the challenger, this competitive mode and mood will shine Khalsa ji even more.
            Thanks again
            Amar
            Duggal
            let's light this lamp for the shake of sikhs



            ---------------------------------------------------------
            This group is dedicated to millions of Punjabis separated by the barbed-border. Primarily it seeks passport/visa-free 3 km long corridor from Indian side to the first shrine of Sikhs namely Kartarpur sahib, Narowal  for which Pakistan Govt has agreed in principle. See http://www.kartarpur.com. Besides day to day discussions we will keep the members posted with the latest developments on this Corridor movement and some Sikh and Punjabi issues as well.




            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




          • ChaanPardesi@aol.com
            Sirs, I am just amused how the topic of factual history has chnaged into mud sliging and counter argument.Is this not a typical sikh behvaiour.A day or two
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
              Sirs, I am just amused how the topic of factual history has chnaged into mud sliging and counter argument.Is this not a typical sikh behvaiour.A day or two ago, I questioned a chamcha who writes about sikhs, as he beleives he is a fully baked sikh unlike the rest of us...after copying from books here and there, and goes by an english name ...he turned it into a personal attack.
               
              sikhs never will mature!Sadly ..
               
              gurcharan singh kulim
            • Baldev Kandola
              Dear Tarlochanji I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These are
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 2, 2005

                Dear Tarlochanji

                 

                “I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.”

                 

                Statement of the obvious is no basis for a rational discourse. Frivolous recitation of the “status quo”  is ‘defeat’ masquerading as ‘victory’. A false premise has the inevitability of a false outcome. When Guru Gobind Singh declared “ chirreon se main baaj laraoon, tabhi Gobind Singh naam kahaoon”. He challenged the status quo to CHANGE IT! The outcome was the freedom from oppression!

                 

                Now,  whose  “academic world” are we talking about? Whose convocations? Whose BA’s, MA’s or PhD’s are we talking about. Whose universities and traditions? Natural Sciences are no private property of one race or nation. It is about time the Indian nation breaks itself out of a slave mentality.  This nation has an unrivalled  tradition of age old universities like Nalanda and  Takshasila.   Wake up and know thyself!!!!

                 

                Many Regards

                 

                Baldev Singh

                 

                 

                ......................................

                 


                From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tarlochan S. Nahal
                Sent: 01 December 2005 17:27
                To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: nahal@...
                Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

                 

                 

                Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

                Waheguru Ji Ki fateh

                 

                Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,

                 

                I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.

                 

                Certainly there has been a great Sikh tradition of learning arts, philosophy, languages, and religion. Sikh by defintion, is a  student and the educational process started with Guru Nanak Dev. However, if you look back just over one century (just before 1892 before Khalsa College Amritsar was established), there were hardly any schools of higher learning in Punjab that really prepared Sikhs for advanced sciences and modern education. Almost all the modern scientifc, engineering, technical, and medical, education is based on western sciences. If you look at the number of students in the Sikh seminaries like Taksal or some deras, you will not ffnd no more than few hundred students altogether in Punjab . . These schools have produced some highly respected scholars and historians and poets. There will hardly be girls among them. What these schools do is important, but it is neither the culmination nor the end of Sikh learning. It is just the start! Have you seen any engineer, programmer, professor, Ph.D., physician, or scientist among them?

                 

                Do you consider the long gone education  of Gurmukhi letters by the village Granthi the great academic tradition or achievement? All religions have Sunday schools or similar educational systems. Hindus, Muslims, Christains, and Buddhists all have them!

                 

                It was Guru Gobind Singh himself who sent his best students to Kashi (center of Hindu learning at that time) for higher learning. Those are known as the "Nirmalas." The Sikhs have thrived so far because of their faith in the Guru and their education. They simply cannot afford to deviate from these.

                 

                Sikhism is fully compatible with higher learning. In fact, higher learning is very much the need of the hour. Few years in Taksal or Sikh missionary college can certainly prepare one for Sikh missionary jobs and religious studues and I am not trying to downplay their importance, but that are neither qualified nor equipped to impart modern scientifc, literary, engineering and technical knowledge which is extremely important in this world in order to survive. Education is key to success not only for the Sikh nation, but for any nation.

                 

                Gur Fateh

                 

                Tarlochan Singh

                 

                ----- Original Message -----

                Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:53 AM

                Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

                 

                Why are these people (“Sikhs”) wearing funny gowns – a stark exhibition of their slave history!!!! Shamefull!!

                 

                What happened to their great Sikh tradition of learning ?

                 

                5abi.com

                 

                 

                ......................................

                 


                From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of amarduggal@...
                Sent: 30 November 2005 17:37
                To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com ; ChaanPardesi@...
                Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

                 

                 "tribute to Gurmukh Piaraeys, long forgotten due to blood of
                ingratitude."

                 

                 

                Can we all agree that along with remembering the militant part of Singhs and this brave history that we are part of,   we need to emphasize on other contributions of Singh / Sikhs and our beloved Gurus. We need to move fast and catch up with what is relevant today as well.

                 

                Now do not take me wrong, the bravery that Singhs have shown and gurus have taught us, is integral part of our system,  but we need to recognize that we live in a world where bravery is advancement in technology and science.

                 

                let's encourage our next generation to make that as a battle ground, and defeat the challenger, this competitive mode and mood will shine Khalsa ji even more.

                Thanks again

                Amar

                Duggal

                let's light this lamp for the shake of sikhs

                 


              • Tarlochan S. Nahal
                Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Dear Baldev Kandola Ji, I do not know in which world you are living and what is your role model for Sikh education.
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 2, 2005
                  Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
                  Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
                   
                  Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,
                   
                  I do not know in which world you are living and what is your role model for Sikh education. Hence it is sheer waste of time to even continue to discuss this issue with person like yourself with such an inferiority complex who is beating his chest of a couple of schools thousands of years ago in Punjab which leave hardly any academic records or legacy other than some ruins. I assume these schools were famous at that time, but can you trace any textbook or even a tiny fragment of it from that era that is still taught in Punjab? Can I get a copy of the textbooks that were taught in Nalanda?
                   
                  Gurus taught us to get good education. "Vidya bichari ta parupkari." It is with sickle of knowledge that we can cut and destroy the ignorance. The Gurus taught us to get education in all fields ad obtain it using whichever way we can. It can be achieved from a Sikh or a non-Sikh.
                   
                  I do not know what status quo are you talking about. It is you who is beating the drum of some Brahmanic way of education which divided the world into four classes few thousand years ago. 
                   
                  Can you even share with us what the students were taught and if it is relevant today?
                   
                  Can you mention one natural scientist that grew out of Punjab in the last 500 years and share with us his contribution to world knoweledge in that branch of knowledge?
                   
                  The fact is education was out of reach for most of the people in India and Punjab. Only very few privileged people could go to school and those were primarily Brahmins who considered all of us Shudras. Thanks to the military prowess of the Sikhs that the Brahmins took a pity on us and "upgraded" us to Vaish!
                   
                  There is a college in every corner of Punjab within 4 miles radius on average. There are over 18,000 schools in Punjab and over two hundred colleges and many universities. They all happened in the last 100 years or so. So I am not sure what academic legacy you can really boast of. Brother, be real and move forward. You cannot live in past. Sikhs need to be on the cutting edge of education to survive. Unfortunately, we are not. I work in the high tech and I rarely see young Sikh engineers coming from India. Silicon Valley is full of Hindu engineers and people from other nations who have paid their dues and got good educations. Here you are sitting in darkness and romanticizing over something that disappeared thousands of years ago leaving almost no traces of academic achievements.
                   
                  Gur Fateh

                  Dr. Tarlochan Singh
                   
                   
                  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 8:11 AM
                  Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

                  Dear Tarlochanji

                   

                  “I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.”

                   

                  Statement of the obvious is no basis for a rational discourse. Frivolous recitation of the “status quo”  is ‘defeat’ masquerading as ‘victory’. A false premise has the inevitability of a false outcome. When Guru Gobind Singh declared “ chirreon se main baaj laraoon, tabhi Gobind Singh naam kahaoon”. He challenged the status quo to CHANGE IT! The outcome was the freedom from oppression!

                   

                  Now,  whose  “academic world” are we talking about? Whose convocations? Whose BA’s, MA’s or PhD’s are we talking about. Whose universities and traditions? Natural Sciences are no private property of one race or nation. It is about time the Indian nation breaks itself out of a slave mentality.  This nation has an unrivalled  tradition of age old universities like Nalanda and  Takshasila.   Wake up and know thyself!!!!

                   

                  Many Regards

                   

                  Baldev Singh

                   

                   

                  ......................................

                   


                  From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tarlochan S. Nahal
                  Sent: 01 December 2005 17:27
                  To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: nahal@...
                  Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

                   

                   

                  Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

                  Waheguru Ji Ki fateh

                   

                  Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,

                   

                  I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.

                   

                  Certainly there has been a great Sikh tradition of learning arts, philosophy, languages, and religion. Sikh by defintion, is a  student and the educational process started with Guru Nanak Dev. However, if you look back just over one century (just before 1892 before Khalsa College Amritsar was established), there were hardly any schools of higher learning in Punjab that really prepared Sikhs for advanced sciences and modern education. Almost all the modern scientifc, engineering, technical, and medical, education is based on western sciences. If you look at the number of students in the Sikh seminaries like Taksal or some deras, you will not ffnd no more than few hundred students altogether in Punjab . . These schools have produced some highly respected scholars and historians and poets. There will hardly be girls among them. What these schools do is important, but it is neither the culmination nor the end of Sikh learning. It is just the start! Have you seen any engineer, programmer, professor, Ph.D., physician, or scientist among them?

                   

                  Do you consider the long gone education  of Gurmukhi letters by the village Granthi the great academic tradition or achievement? All religions have Sunday schools or similar educational systems. Hindus, Muslims, Christains, and Buddhists all have them!

                   

                  It was Guru Gobind Singh himself who sent his best students to Kashi (center of Hindu learning at that time) for higher learning. Those are known as the "Nirmalas." The Sikhs have thrived so far because of their faith in the Guru and their education. They simply cannot afford to deviate from these.

                   

                  Sikhism is fully compatible with higher learning. In fact, higher learning is very much the need of the hour. Few years in Taksal or Sikh missionary college can certainly prepare one for Sikh missionary jobs and religious studues and I am not trying to downplay their importance, but that are neither qualified nor equipped to impart modern scientifc, literary, engineering and technical knowledge which is extremely important in this world in order to survive. Education is key to success not only for the Sikh nation, but for any nation.

                   

                  Gur Fateh

                   

                  Tarlochan Singh

                   

                  ----- Original Message -----

                  Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:53 AM

                  Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

                   

                  Why are these people (“Sikhs”) wearing funny gowns – a stark exhibition of their slave history!!!! Shamefull!!

                   

                  What happened to their great Sikh tradition of learning ?

                   

                  5abi.com

                   

                   

                  ......................................

                   


                  From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of amarduggal@...
                  Sent: 30 November 2005 17:37
                  To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com ; ChaanPardesi@...
                  Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is next?

                   

                   "tribute to Gurmukh Piaraeys, long forgotten due to blood of
                  ingratitude."

                   

                   

                  Can we all agree that along with remembering the militant part of Singhs and this brave history that we are part of,   we need to emphasize on other contributions of Singh / Sikhs and our beloved Gurus. We need to move fast and catch up with what is relevant today as well.

                   

                  Now do not take me wrong, the bravery that Singhs have shown and gurus have taught us, is integral part of our system,  but we need to recognize that we live in a world where bravery is advancement in technology and science.

                   

                  let's encourage our next generation to make that as a battle ground, and defeat the challenger, this competitive mode and mood will shine Khalsa ji even more.

                  Thanks again

                  Amar

                  Duggal

                  let's light this lamp for the shake of sikhs

                   


                • Nirmal Singh
                  Thank you Tarlochan ji. I hope Baldev ji would tell us more about himself, his concerns and his agenda in terms that we can understand - given as he thinks our
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 3, 2005
                    Thank you Tarlochan ji. I hope Baldev ji would tell us more about
                    himself, his concerns and his agenda in terms that we can understand -
                    given as he thinks our level of intellect and our slavish
                    predilections.
                    Nirmal Singh

                    --- "Tarlochan S. Nahal" <nahal@...> wrote:

                    > Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
                    > Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
                    >
                    > Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,
                    >
                    > I do not know in which world you are living and what is your role
                    > model for Sikh education. Hence it is sheer waste of time to even
                    > continue to discuss this issue with person like yourself with such an
                    > inferiority complex who is beating his chest of a couple of schools
                    > thousands of years ago in Punjab which leave hardly any academic
                    > records or legacy other than some ruins. I assume these schools were
                    > famous at that time, but can you trace any textbook or even a tiny
                    > fragment of it from that era that is still taught in Punjab? Can I
                    > get a copy of the textbooks that were taught in Nalanda?
                    >
                    > Gurus taught us to get good education. "Vidya bichari ta parupkari."
                    > It is with sickle of knowledge that we can cut and destroy the
                    > ignorance. The Gurus taught us to get education in all fields ad
                    > obtain it using whichever way we can. It can be achieved from a Sikh
                    > or a non-Sikh.
                    >
                    > I do not know what status quo are you talking about. It is you who is
                    > beating the drum of some Brahmanic way of education which divided the
                    > world into four classes few thousand years ago.
                    >
                    > Can you even share with us what the students were taught and if it is
                    > relevant today?
                    >
                    > Can you mention one natural scientist that grew out of Punjab in the
                    > last 500 years and share with us his contribution to world knoweledge
                    > in that branch of knowledge?
                    >
                    > The fact is education was out of reach for most of the people in
                    > India and Punjab. Only very few privileged people could go to school
                    > and those were primarily Brahmins who considered all of us Shudras.
                    > Thanks to the military prowess of the Sikhs that the Brahmins took a
                    > pity on us and "upgraded" us to Vaish!
                    >
                    > There is a college in every corner of Punjab within 4 miles radius on
                    > average. There are over 18,000 schools in Punjab and over two hundred
                    > colleges and many universities. They all happened in the last 100
                    > years or so. So I am not sure what academic legacy you can really
                    > boast of. Brother, be real and move forward. You cannot live in past.
                    > Sikhs need to be on the cutting edge of education to survive.
                    > Unfortunately, we are not. I work in the high tech and I rarely see
                    > young Sikh engineers coming from India. Silicon Valley is full of
                    > Hindu engineers and people from other nations who have paid their
                    > dues and got good educations. Here you are sitting in darkness and
                    > romanticizing over something that disappeared thousands of years ago
                    > leaving almost no traces of academic achievements.
                    >
                    > Gur Fateh
                    >
                    > Dr. Tarlochan Singh
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Baldev Kandola
                    > To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 8:11 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is
                    > next?
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Tarlochanji
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are
                    > wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These
                    > are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic
                    > functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does
                    > not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Statement of the obvious is no basis for a rational discourse.
                    > Frivolous recitation of the "status quo" is 'defeat' masquerading as
                    > 'victory'. A false premise has the inevitability of a false outcome.
                    > When Guru Gobind Singh declared " chirreon se main baaj laraoon,
                    > tabhi Gobind Singh naam kahaoon". He challenged the status quo to
                    > CHANGE IT! The outcome was the freedom from oppression!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Now, whose "academic world" are we talking about? Whose
                    > convocations? Whose BA's, MA's or PhD's are we talking about. Whose
                    > universities and traditions? Natural Sciences are no private property
                    > of one race or nation. It is about time the Indian nation breaks
                    > itself out of a slave mentality. This nation has an unrivalled
                    > tradition of age old universities like Nalanda and Takshasila.
                    > Wake up and know thyself!!!!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Many Regards
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Baldev Singh
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ......................................
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kartarpur@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of Tarlochan S. Nahal
                    > Sent: 01 December 2005 17:27
                    > To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                    > Cc: nahal@...
                    > Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is
                    > next?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
                    >
                    > Waheguru Ji Ki fateh
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are
                    > wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These
                    > are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic
                    > functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does
                    > not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Certainly there has been a great Sikh tradition of learning arts,
                    > philosophy, languages, and religion. Sikh by defintion, is a student
                    > and the educational process started with Guru Nanak Dev. However, if
                    > you look back just over one century (just before 1892 before Khalsa
                    > College Amritsar was established), there were hardly any schools of
                    > higher learning in Punjab that really prepared Sikhs for advanced
                    > sciences and modern education. Almost all the modern scientifc,
                    > engineering, technical, and medical, education is based on western
                    > sciences. If you look at the number of students in the Sikh
                    > seminaries like Taksal or some deras, you will not ffnd no more than
                    > few hundred students altogether in Punjab. . These schools have
                    > produced some highly respected scholars and historians and poets.
                    > There will hardly be girls among them. What these schools do is
                    > important, but it is neither the culmination nor the end of Sikh
                    > learning. It is just the start! Have you seen any engineer,
                    > programmer, professor, Ph.D., physician, or scientist among them?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Do you consider the long gone education of Gurmukhi letters by the
                    > village Granthi the great academic tradition or achievement? All
                    > religions have Sunday schools or similar educational systems. Hindus,
                    > Muslims, Christains, and Buddhists all have them!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > It was Guru Gobind Singh himself who sent his best students to
                    > Kashi (center of Hindu learning at that time) for higher learning.
                    > Those are known as the "Nirmalas." The Sikhs have thrived so far
                    > because of their faith in the Guru and their education. They simply
                    > cannot afford to deviate from these.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sikhism is fully compatible with higher learning. In fact, higher
                    > learning is very much the need of the hour. Few years in Taksal or
                    > Sikh missionary college can certainly prepare one for Sikh missionary
                    > jobs and religious studues and I am not trying to downplay their
                    > importance, but that are neither qualified nor equipped to impart
                    > modern scientifc, literary, engineering and technical knowledge which
                    > is extremely important in this world in order to survive. Education
                    > is key to success not only for the Sikh nation, but for any nation.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Gur Fateh
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Tarlochan Singh
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    >
                    > From: Baldev Kandola
                    >
                    > To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:53 AM
                    >
                    === message truncated ===




                    __________________________________
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                  • nora goraya
                    thankyou Nirmal Singh wrote: Thank you Tarlochan ji. I hope Baldev ji would tell us more about himself, his concerns and his agenda in terms
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 3, 2005
                      thankyou


                      Nirmal Singh <enveen@...> wrote:

                      Thank you Tarlochan ji. I hope Baldev ji would tell us more about
                      himself, his concerns and his agenda in terms that we can understand -
                      given as he thinks our level of intellect and our slavish
                      predilections.
                      Nirmal Singh

                      --- "Tarlochan S. Nahal" <nahal@...> wrote:

                      > Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
                      > Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
                      >
                      > Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,
                      >
                      > I do not know in which world you are living and what is your role
                      > model for Sikh education. Hence it is sheer waste of time to even
                      > continue to discuss this issue with person like yourself with such an
                      > inferiority complex who is beating his chest of a couple of schools
                      > thousands of years ago in Punjab which leave hardly any academic
                      > records or legacy other than some ruins. I assume these schools were
                      > famous at that time, but can you trace any textbook or even a tiny
                      > fragment of it from that era that is still taught in Punjab? Can I
                      > get a copy of the textbooks that were taught in Nalanda?
                      >
                      > Gurus taught us to get good education. "Vidya bichari ta parupkari."
                      > It is with sickle of knowledge that we can cut and destroy the
                      > ignorance. The Gurus taught us to get education in all fields ad
                      > obtain it using whichever way we can. It can be achieved from a Sikh
                      > or a non-Sikh.
                      >
                      > I do not know what status quo are you talking about. It is you who is
                      > beating the drum of some Brahmanic way of education which divided the
                      > world into four classes few thousand years ago.
                      >
                      > Can you even share with us what the students were taught and if it is
                      > relevant today?
                      >
                      > Can you mention one natural scientist that grew out of Punjab in the
                      > last 500 years and share with us his contribution to world knoweledge
                      > in that branch of knowledge?
                      >
                      > The fact is education was out of reach for most of the people in
                      > India and Punjab. Only very few privileged people could go to school
                      > and those were primarily Brahmins who considered all of us Shudras.
                      > Thanks to the military prowess of the Sikhs that the Brahmins took a
                      > pity on us and "upgraded" us to Vaish!
                      >
                      > There is a college in every corner of Punjab within 4 miles radius on
                      > average. There are over 18,000 schools in Punjab and over two hundred
                      > colleges and many universities. They all happened in the last 100
                      > years or so. So I am not sure what academic legacy you can really
                      > boast of. Brother, be real and move forward. You cannot live in past.
                      > Sikhs need to be on the cutting edge of education to survive.
                      > Unfortunately, we are not. I work in the high tech and I rarely see
                      > young Sikh engineers coming from India. Silicon Valley is full of
                      > Hindu engineers and people from other nations who have paid their
                      > dues and got good educations. Here you are sitting in darkness and
                      > romanticizing over something that disappeared thousands of years ago
                      > leaving almost no traces of academic achievements.
                      >
                      > Gur Fateh
                      >
                      > Dr. Tarlochan Singh
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Baldev Kandola
                      >   To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                      >   Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 8:11 AM
                      >   Subject: RE: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is
                      > next?
                      >
                      >
                      >   Dear Tarlochanji
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   "I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are
                      > wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These
                      > are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic
                      > functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does
                      > not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees."
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Statement of the obvious is no basis for a rational discourse.
                      > Frivolous recitation of the "status quo"  is 'defeat' masquerading as
                      > 'victory'. A false premise has the inevitability of a false outcome.
                      > When Guru Gobind Singh declared " chirreon se main baaj laraoon,
                      > tabhi Gobind Singh naam kahaoon". He challenged the status quo to
                      > CHANGE IT! The outcome was the freedom from oppression!
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Now,  whose  "academic world" are we talking about? Whose
                      > convocations? Whose BA's, MA's or PhD's are we talking about. Whose
                      > universities and traditions? Natural Sciences are no private property
                      > of one race or nation. It is about time the Indian nation breaks
                      > itself out of a slave mentality.  This nation has an unrivalled
                      > tradition of age old universities like Nalanda and  Takshasila. 
                      > Wake up and know thyself!!!!
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Many Regards
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Baldev Singh
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   ......................................
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >   From: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kartarpur@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of Tarlochan S. Nahal
                      >   Sent: 01 December 2005 17:27
                      >   To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                      >   Cc: nahal@...
                      >   Subject: Re: [kartarpur] Memoirs from Sikh History and what is
                      > next?
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
                      >
                      >   Waheguru Ji Ki fateh
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Dear Baldev Kandola Ji,
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   I do not which slave history are you referring to. The Sikhs are
                      > wearing academic gowns recognized all over the academic word. These
                      > are usually worn during convocation functions or some other academic
                      > functions. These gowns that you see cannot be worn by anyone who does
                      > not have a B.A., M.A. or Ph.D. degrees.
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Certainly there has been a great Sikh tradition of learning arts,
                      > philosophy, languages, and religion. Sikh by defintion, is a  student
                      > and the educational process started with Guru Nanak Dev. However, if
                      > you look back just over one century (just before 1892 before Khalsa
                      > College Amritsar was established), there were hardly any schools of
                      > higher learning in Punjab that really prepared Sikhs for advanced
                      > sciences and modern education. Almost all the modern scientifc,
                      > engineering, technical, and medical, education is based on western
                      > sciences. If you look at the number of students in the Sikh
                      > seminaries like Taksal or some deras, you will not ffnd no more than
                      > few hundred students altogether in Punjab. . These schools have
                      > produced some highly respected scholars and historians and poets.
                      > There will hardly be girls among them. What these schools do is
                      > important, but it is neither the culmination nor the end of Sikh
                      > learning. It is just the start! Have you seen any engineer,
                      > programmer, professor, Ph.D., physician, or scientist among them?
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Do you consider the long gone education  of Gurmukhi letters by the
                      > village Granthi the great academic tradition or achievement? All
                      > religions have Sunday schools or similar educational systems. Hindus,
                      > Muslims, Christains, and Buddhists all have them!
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   It was Guru Gobind Singh himself who sent his best students to
                      > Kashi (center of Hindu learning at that time) for higher learning.
                      > Those are known as the "Nirmalas." The Sikhs have thrived so far
                      > because of their faith in the Guru and their education. They simply
                      > cannot afford to deviate from these.
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Sikhism is fully compatible with higher learning. In fact, higher
                      > learning is very much the need of the hour. Few years in Taksal or
                      > Sikh missionary college can certainly prepare one for Sikh missionary
                      > jobs and religious studues and I am not trying to downplay their
                      > importance, but that are neither qualified nor equipped to impart
                      > modern scientifc, literary, engineering and technical knowledge which
                      > is extremely important in this world in order to survive. Education
                      > is key to success not only for the Sikh nation, but for any nation.
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Gur Fateh
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >   Tarlochan Singh
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >     ----- Original Message -----
                      >
                      >     From: Baldev Kandola
                      >
                      >     To: kartarpur@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >     Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:53 AM
                      >
                      === message truncated ===



                                 
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