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Re: [KLOS_Impact] Re: Flying Circus -- rat experiment

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  • Sean R.
    Now your changing what you said, and you know it. You also now know that I have a background with physiological psychology, and your careful of what you are
    Message 1 of 51 , Apr 30 10:25 PM
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      Now your changing what you said, and you know it.  You also now know that I have a background with physiological psychology, and your careful of what you are saying. 
       
      Kev says:  "I'm not sure whose posts you are reading, but you seem to have
      completely misunderstood what I have written. I never said drugs were
      not addictive. "  
       
      Oh you didn't Kev?  Well what's this?  Kev:  "Most drugs are NOT addictive." 
      Doesn't look like a misunderstanding to me.  And the drugs we are speaking of, most of them are addictive, and by that I mean physiologically.
       
      Kev says:  "Furthermore, you lie when you say that I contend that "People only go
      to great lengths to get drugs only because of law." What I said was
      that the law makes people go to great lengths to get drugs, and that
      produces a variable schedule of reinforcement"
       
        I lied huh?  More of you changing what you said. I say "Drug addicts go to great disgusting lenghts to get their fix." 
       
      Here is your reply, Kev:  "This is ONLY because it is ILLEGAL!!! "
      So stop acting like you have something to say, your getting proven wrong over and over, and its ridicolous you are still arguing.  You can't defend what I just showed above, you changed what you said.  And your idea about reinforcement is wrong.  You don't even specify if it is negative or positive reinforcement, and I'm sure you have no idea what negative reinforcement is, or how it works. Both negative and positive make the behavior more likely (free tip). If anything, the law makes it harder to get drugs, great lengths like you said (please have open mind here), the struggle is so hard, they would be deterred or stop from going to lengths to get the illegal drugs.  Therefore, they don't go for it.  People don't go to great lengths to get drugs because law makes it hard, they break the law because of withdrawal symptoms, to live. 
       
      Kev: Either you now too are being disengenuous, or you haven't been
      separating your study time from your stoned time? 
       
      Or maybe I just made you look like a lieing fool.  Your credibility on this board is out the window because you changed what you said and I showed it.  Don't reply changing the subject to something else about drugs, YOU CHANGED WHAT YOU SAID AND I CAUGHT YOU.  It's too bad that you are too proud to bite the bullet, and say "Hey I'm wrong, but now I know the deal, and I am better for it."  Don't you want to know the truth instead of be in denial?  I know people don't like 19 year olds trying to tell them the way it is, but I would certainly admit if I was wrong.  I'm trying to learn here.  I welcome argumentation to learn, not to prove.  It strikes me when people can't admit their wrongs, it isnt a big deal.  Yet you waste your time changing what you said trying to prove something. Your arguing with a police officer and somone who deals with this everyday.  And hopefully Patrick won't feel the need to jump in here and say "immigrants and drugs aren't the problem! It's corporations!"  Maybe its both, too bad he can only concentrate on a few things. 
       
      And about people using black market drugs makes it so people get in car crashes, whereas legal drugs would have safe potency and not laced with shit, the example I gave you of the person high at the party who crashed, he was smoking medicinal marijuana, had a few hits.
       
       
       
       
       


      DrKEV <avtar@...> wrote:


      Neurology is the backbone of Chiropractic. If you don't believe my
      experiment, try it. It came to me in the middle of the night from some
      Berkeley post-grad student calling in on the radio. No citation given.

      Remember, I said you could get the rats to kill each other using sugar
      too.

      I'm not sure whose posts you are reading, but you seem to have
      completely misunderstood what I have written. I never said drugs were
      not addictive. What I said is that only a few drugs actually produce
      serious physical withdrawls symptoms. Opiates and barbs, in
      particular. Other drugs do produce strong psychological dependence
      becuase the increased nxmtr activity they cause is countered by
      neurons reducing the number of synaptic receptors.

      It is possible that jargon in the field has hanged in 10 or 15 years,
      but you haven't demonstrated that.

      Furthermore, you lie when you say that I contend that "People only go
      to great lengths to get drugs only because of law." What I said was
      that the law makes people go to great lengths to get drugs, and that
      produces a variable schedule of reinforcement, which has the effect of
      producing obscessive/compulsive behavior (dependency). This is
      textbook BF Skinner, if you aren't familiar with it.

      And I never said I "think that a few instances of people crashing high
      is okay." What I said was that prohibition causes more accidents than
      not, because people have no control over potency and purity of black
      market drugs. I contend that the accidents come from cases where
      people think they are getting one thing and either get more than they
      thought or get something else altogether. Classic example is a joint
      laced with PCP.

      Either you now too are being disengenuous, or you haven't been
      separating your study time from your stoned time?



      --- In KLOS_Impact@yahoogroups.com, "Sean R." wrote:
      >
      > Well I never said I believe in prohibition, but unlike you, I can
      see both sides of the arguement for what they are. don't tell me I
      have a clsoed mind when I do drugs, and study them. And you talk
      about htings you have no idea. Don't talk to me aboust science. When
      you get selected to go to Berkley for 8 weeks with a few other
      students from California, and conduct lab studies with payed expenses,
      than you can try to tell me about science. I didn't exchange
      neurotransmitter with itslef, I did it with neurons genious, neurons
      carry the neurtransmitter. Its funny how much you speak of what
      happens to the brain yet you have no study to back it up, and you
      don't study it. And my study showed how creatures go to great lengths
      to get their fix, the rats got electric shock and still went for it,
      oh but wait, these aren't addictive drugs you say, and people only go
      to great lengths to get them because of the lawl, well thats not the
      case with rats is it. You operate at a
      > low intelligence level. I wonder if you even went to college and
      got a good education, or just stay lilke a vegetable all day. Stop
      bitching and maoning about the world, get off your butt, and be
      proactive. If you want something to change, change it goddamnit, dont
      cry. Your too proud on this internet forum to admit when your wrong,
      even in the face of my knowledge presented and my studies. you talk
      from what you think, I speak from what I know.
      >
      > Here is where Kev is wrong:
      > Drugs aren't addictive--WRONG!!!
      > People only go to great lengths to get drugs only because of
      law--WRONG!!! (Refer to lab test)
      > And yet you still think that a few instances of people crashing
      high is okay. Tell that to the woman who lost her daughter. And that
      study you presented, present the damn source, don't paraphrase crap
      and change it or edit it, liek you probably do. I've proven you
      wrong, bite your tongue.
      >
      >
      > DrKEV wrote:
      > --- In KLOS_Impact@yahoogroups.com, "Sean R." wrote:
      > >
      > > DrKEV wrote: --- In KLOS_Impact@yahoogroups.com,
      > "Sean R." wrote:
      > > >
      >
      > >
      > > Kev: How much effort do you put out to not use drugs? Most drugs are
      > > NOT addictive.
      > >
      > > Sean: What the hell are you talking about? Don't tell me drugs,
      > or most drugs aren't addictive when I major in psychology, study
      > physiological psychology (courses devoted to drugs). I'll make it
      > easy for you to understand, I doubt you too take physiological
      > psychology. When you take drugs, it releases a chemical in the body
      > (neurotransmitter), and when the body gets an amount of it that it
      > isn't use to, it gets used to it. Other neurons that get the chemical
      > get used to functioning with it. That is why when people start taking
      > a drug at first, the effects are more extreme, the neurons aren't used
      > to it yet. When they are used to it, you become desensitized. When
      > you take that chemical or drug away, the neurons stop operating
      > without it, and then compensate by using otherr chemicals, which are
      > very uncomfortable, which then causes people to crave the drugs. And
      > with psychological dependence, their mind craves the experience,
      > certainly not as harsh because no
      > > withdrawal symptoms physically.
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > Addiction, when I studied pshchology, required physical withdrawl
      > symptoms. Dependence, is what happens when the brain reduces
      > neurotransmitter receptors to compensate for increased activity caused
      > by drug. You use the words interchangeably, like some people do with
      > feeling and assumption.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Kev: Almost nothing produces the degree of irresponsible behavior,
      > and loss
      > > of judgement, that alcohol does, and still allows the user to actually
      > > drive a car. The belief that drug legalization will cause an increase
      > > in irresponsible behavior is a pipedream. The opposite is more likely
      > > as people begin opting for a joint instead of a beer. Actual crime
      > > will decrease.
      > >
      > > Sean: Well Kev, your absolutely wrong. How about this, I was
      > with a guy at a party who was smoking marijuana. He hadn't done it
      > that much before. He gets in his car, starts driving on the wrong
      > side of the road and crashes head on with another car. Behavior was
      > driving, being in the wrong side of the road, irresponsible. So you
      > are flat out wrong.
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > As I, and you, have said before, casual use of weed produces stronger
      > effects that may preclude the ability to drive. But you are not
      > considering how prohibition created the situation you described.
      > Prohibition promotes irresponsible use of drugs, while regulation
      > stresses education and enables personal responsiblity. You flat out
      > have a closed mind on the matter, it seems. Not only was I not wrong
      > but you actually reinforce my argument!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > >Sean: Someone is going to hurt someone else. Drug addicts go to great
      > > disgusting lenghts to get their fix. The body cannot function without
      > > it, therefore, the addict is doing what he needs to survive. I do not
      > > know however, that if drugs in small personal amounts were made legal,
      > > would make things any better. Some argue that Holland has it under
      > > control and its legal there.
      > >
      > >
      > > Kev: This is ONLY because it is ILLEGAL!!! Goddammit! In Holland, for
      > > instance, heroin addicts get heroin for free. They hold down steady
      > > jobs, manage to be productive members of society and live twise as
      > > long as the kids in the states who get involved with illegal heroin.
      > > They also don't get or spread AIDS/hep/etc because they don't have to
      > > share needles.
      > >
      > > Sean: More ignorant crap from you of course. So just because its
      > legal and free, they wont go to great lengths to get it, fine. But
      > then what, they get in the car and CRASH!!! Don't tell me people act
      > irresponsible on drugs because of the law, its because they are high
      > damnit.
      >
      >
      > People crash on weed only slightly, very slightly more often than
      > people who are not high on anything. If this were not so, the freeway
      > would be shut down every day all day by all the accidents that all the
      > people on weed would be causing if they were anywhere near as
      > incompetent as you have been programmed to believe.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >Go read brain studies and figure out that when high, some parts of
      > the brain don't work, like the parts that operate in logic and being
      > rational.
      >
      >
      > This is true of many drugs, especially alcohol, but weed actually
      > stimulate higher brain functions instead of shutting them down.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >So only arrest the people who we catch on the drugs acting
      > irresponsibly you say. And if the cops catch someone with drugs, they
      > should jsut trust that they wont hurt anyone.
      >
      >
      > Yes, just like we don't arrest people in lregal possession of
      > firearms, or an automobile itslelf, for that matter.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >So then the police let that person go, turns out that they too hurt
      > someone later, what a nice risk the police officer took, oh well.
      >
      >
      >
      > Yep. Oh well. Welcome to a free society, if you can handle it! The
      > damage to society from prohibition far far outweighs the damaged
      > caused by your phantoms, my friend.
      >
      >
      >
      > >On the other hand, they arrest anyone with the drug, and don't trust
      > anyone because someone might get hurt. This is why possesion offenses
      > are less than those who actually do something stupid while intoxicated.
      >
      >
      > Throwing me in jail because someone else may or may not have fucked up
      > is the hieght of arrogance! It is absolutely absurd and even,
      > ultimately, genocidal.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > Sean: Alcohol is also legal there at a young age, but there aren't
      > nearly
      > > as many people in Europe abusing alcohol as there is here. I do
      > > believe people will do something jsut to revolt, humans don't like
      > > constraints.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Kev: If you know normal people are going to do drugs because they are
      > > illegal, to revolt, then it reinforces the fact that prohibition
      > > actually increases addiction rates, not to mention the amount of crime
      > > committed by users, who are forced to pay 100 times to 400 times the
      > > legal price for their drugs.
      > > The greatest cause of addiction in the US is narcotics officers.
      > >
      > > Sean: I already said it isnt black and white, what dont you get
      > through that head of your? Make it illegal and people will do it to
      > revolt, duh! Make it legal, people get it easier, and still get in
      > the car! Just like with alcohol, and that is legal. Just because some
      > people can manage to drive high, doesnt mean all can.
      >
      >
      >
      > Just because a very small percantage of the pop can't handle their
      > drugs, or cars, or guns, or knives, or emotions, or their legislation,
      > you want toput me in jail? Well you can go f--k yourself What are you,
      > a totalitarian psychopath!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Kev: Don't try this at home, unless Sergeant Bil says its OK. Get
      > two rat
      > > cages, with two rats in each cage. Care for the rats properly. Place a
      > > small mound of cocaine in each cage, and watch! (Hint: Sugar works
      > > too!) Guess what, nothing happens. Sure the rats as they explore the
      > > cage, will discover the white powder, and from time to time, consume
      > > some, on a sporadic schedule, never exhibiting signs of "addiction."
      > > This stays true indefinitely in cage A. In B, however, instead of
      > > keeping the mound fully stocked, you let the pile disappear, and wait
      > > a little while before replenishing the supply with half the original
      > > ammount. Still, no outrageous behavior. But if each time the pile is
      > > extinguished, you wait a little longer, and put a little less, or
      > > worse, cut what you put in there, eventually the rats will jump on the
      > > pile as soon as it arrives and consume it all in a binge, before the
      > > other rat uses it all. Eventually they will fight to the death over a
      > > supply that would have lasted them for days or weeks, had they nt been
      > > conditioned by artifcial scarcity.
      > >
      > > Sean: As for that crap, here is a little study I got to learn
      > about, there were more than one of these studies doen by the way. All
      > resulted in the same way.
      > >
      > > Study: Rats Can Become Addicted to Cocaine
      > 2004-08-13 @ 02:45:23
      > > Study: Rats Can Become Addicted to Cocaine French and British
      > research finds that rats can become addicted to cocaine, much as
      > humans can, the Associated Press reported Aug. 13.
      > >
      > > The studies could help researchers determine what makes some people
      > more vulnerable to addiction. The research could also be valuable in
      > developing new anti-drug therapies.
      > >
      > > In a study by lead researcher Pier Vincenzo Piazza of INSERM,
      > France's National Institute of Health and Medical Research, rats were
      > allowed access to cocaine for three months. When the researchers
      > stopped the supply of the drug, the rats became persistent and worked
      > harder to get the cocaine, despite receiving an electric shock in
      > their feet when going for the drug.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > So despite the electric shock, they still went for it. Great
      > lengths like I said. And rats didnt have to deal with the law, they
      > weren't reinforced by people, or by the law to increase their
      > behavior. You have jsut been proven wrong. Good bye.
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > And you have just proven your complete icompetence as a scientist.
      > This study in no way disproves my point, or discredits my thought
      > experiment. It is irrelavent. You are way too closed minded. No one is
      > more hoplessly enslaved than the drug user who believes in prohibition.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
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    • DrKEV
      ... that I have a background with physiological psychology, and your careful of what you are saying. ... to have ... addictive. ... speaking of, most of them
      Message 51 of 51 , May 1, 2006
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        --- In KLOS_Impact@yahoogroups.com, "Sean R." <renaissancesr24@...> wrote:
        >
        > Now your changing what you said, and you know it. You also now know
        that I have a background with physiological psychology, and your
        careful of what you are saying.
        >
        > Kev says: "I'm not sure whose posts you are reading, but you seem
        to have
        > completely misunderstood what I have written. I never said drugs were
        > not addictive. "
        >
        > Oh you didn't Kev? Well what's this? Kev: "Most drugs are NOT
        addictive."
        > Doesn't look like a misunderstanding to me. And the drugs we are
        speaking of, most of them are addictive, and by that I mean
        physiologically.




        As I failed evidently to clarify previously, when I use the word
        addiction I'm talking about drugs that caise severe, often life
        threatening, physical withdrawl symptoms. I metioned heroin and barbs,
        but alcohol is also in this category. Few if any other drugs are.


        There is no point in wasting more of eveyones time on this. If you
        want to think I am full for shit, go ahead. You are looking for any
        crack in my logic instead of trying to see my truth. So be it.





        >
        > Kev says: "Furthermore, you lie when you say that I contend that
        "People only go
        > to great lengths to get drugs only because of law." What I said was
        > that the law makes people go to great lengths to get drugs, and that
        > produces a variable schedule of reinforcement"
        >
        > I lied huh? More of you changing what you said. I say "Drug
        addicts go to great disgusting lenghts to get their fix."
        >
        > Here is your reply, Kev: "This is ONLY because it is ILLEGAL!!! "
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