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Re: [KLOS_Impact] Famous Atheist Quotes - getting the point [was: Re: Fw: (no subject)]

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  • Dr.KEV
    I think you are confusing God with what Christians, Jews, ans Moslems worship/fear. The problem with science, and Einstein, the structure of the world so far
    Message 1 of 63 , Nov 30, 2008
      I think you are confusing God with what Christians, Jews, ans Moslems worship/fear.

      The problem with science, and Einstein, "the structure of the
      world so far as our science can reveal it," is guilty, is the folly that if something has not been proven (like God), then it does not exist. That turns science into an ignorance cult.

      -KEV

      At 06:59 AM 12/1/2008 -0000, you wrote:
      > gstics
      > uilty Famous Atheists, , Diesto
      > This compilation of quotes, from some of the worlds greatest thinkers,
      > gives me hope that our battle is just. There is a
      >
      > chance that some day the realities of Science will overcome the
      > obscurities of Theology.
      >
      > Of Time–Life's 100 most influential people of the Millenium, this list
      > includes 19 of them, and 5 are in the top 10.
      >
      > Abraham Lincoln
      >
      >"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could
      >"
      >
      > - Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).
      >
      >
      > Albert Einstein
      >
      >"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but
      > have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
      > religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the
      >"
      >
      >"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his
      > creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short,
      > who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that
      > the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls
      >"
      >
      >"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
      > ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
      >"
      >
      >"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a
      >"
      >
      > -Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
      >
      > Aldous Huxley
      >
      >"You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible
      > fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous
      > folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      >
      > Andrew Carnegie
      >
      >"I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a
      >"
      >
      > - Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
      >
      >
      > Isaac Asimov
      >
      >"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've
      > been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was
      > intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it
      > assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say
      > one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove
      > that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that
      >"
      >
      >"Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up
      >"
      >
      > -Isaac Asimov, Russian-born - American author
      >
      > Ernest Hemingway
      >
      >""
      >
      > On page 144 of Paul Johnson's book Intellectuals, it states that
      > despite being raised in a strict Congregationalist household, Ernest
      >"did not only not believe in God but regarded organized religion as a
      >""seems to have been devoid of the
      >""ceased to practise religion at the earliest
      >"
      > Other's have pointed out that Hemingway used the non-existence of God
      > as a theme in his books.
      >
      > - Ernest Hemingway, American author (1899-1961).
      >
      > Arthur C. Clarke
      >
      >"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to
      >"
      >
      >"Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may
      > have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary?
      > Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of
      >"
      >
      > Arthur C. Clarke, author
      >
      > Charles Darwin
      >
      > From the age of forty he was, to use his own words, a complete
      > dis-believer in Christianity. He professed himself an Agnostic,
      >"For
      >""I do not believe in any revelation. As for a
      > future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting
      > vague probabilities."
      >"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I
      >"
      >
      >"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments
      > against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the
      > public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual
      > illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of
      >" [Quoted in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of
      > Science by Michael Shermer.
      >
      > Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist (1809-1882).
      >
      > Ayn Rand
      >
      >"Faith is the commitment of one's consciousness to beliefs for which
      > one has no sensory evidence or rational proof. A mystic is a man who
      > treats his feelings as tools of cognition. Faith is the equation of
      >"
      >
      > -Ayn Rand, Russian-born author (1905-1982).
      > (The Fountainhead)
      >
      >
      > Benjamin Franklin
      >
      >"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      > -Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
      >
      >
      > Dave Matthews
      >
      >"I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If
      > there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an
      >"
      >
      > -Dave Matthews, South African rock musician
      >
      >
      > Carl Sagan
      >
      >"My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it.
      > An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there
      >"
      >
      > -Carl Sagan, American astronomer and author
      >
      > Bertrand Russell
      >
      >"Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious,
      > fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and
      > therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in
      > hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it
      > as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the
      >"
      >
      >"Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion
      > and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand."
      >
      >"I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will
      > survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver
      > with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less
      > true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love
      > lose their value because they are not everlasting."
      >
      >"I am myself a dissenter from all known religions, and I hope that
      >"
      >
      > - Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathematician, and
      > social critic (1872-1970).
      >
      > Billy Joel
      >
      >"I wasn't raised Catholic, but I used to go to Mass with my friends,
      > and I viewed the whole business as a lot of very enthralling
      > hocus-pocus. There's a guy hanging upon the wall in the church, nailed
      > to a cross and dripping blood, and everybody's blaming themselves for
      > that man's torment, but I said to myself, 'Forget it. I had no hand in
      > that evil. I have no original sin. There's no blood of any sacred
      >"
      >
      >"I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in
      >"
      >
      > -Billy Joel, American musician
      >
      > Clarence Darrow
      >
      >"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called
      >"
      >
      >"I believe that relgion is the belief in future life and in God. I
      > don't believe in either. I don't believe in God as I don't believe in
      >"
      >
      > - Clarence Seward Darrow, American lawyer (1857-1938). (Scopes Monkey
      > Trail- Creationism in schools)
      >
      >
      >""
      >
      > - George Carlin, comedian
      >
      > Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
      >
      >"The memory of my own suffering has prevented me from ever shadowing
      >"
      >
      >"The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in
      > the way of women's emancipation."
      >
      >"The bible teaches that woman brought sin and death into the world,
      > that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned
      > before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced.
      > Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period
      > of suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to
      > play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material
      > wants, and for all the information she might desire...Here is the
      >"
      >
      >"I found nothing grand in the history of the
      > Jews nor in the morals inculcated in the Pentateuch. Surely the
      > writers had a very low idea of the nature of their god. They made him
      > not only anthropomorphic, but of the very lowest type, jealous and
      > revengeful, loving violence rather than mercy. I know of no other
      >"
      > [Women Without Superstition]
      >
      > - Elizabeth Cady Stanton, American suffragist (1815-1902).
      >
      >""
      >
      >"Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect
      >"
      >
      >"Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody
      >"
      >
      >"Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason
      >" [Philosophical Dictionary, 1764]
      >"Superstition, born of paganism and adopted by Judaism, invested the
      > Christian Church from earliest times. All the fathers of the Church,
      > without exception, believed in the power of magic. The Church always
      > condemned magic, but she always believed in it: she did not
      > excommunicate sorcerers as madmen who were mistaken, but as men who
      >" [Philosophical
      > Dictionary, 1764]
      >
      >""
      >""
      >
      > Perhaps never really an atheist, nonetheless, Voltaire changed late in
      > life into a fearless crusader against religious cruelty and injustice.
      > In Voltaire's time it was forbidden to be an Atheist. Admitting to be
      > one, brought the death sentence. Hence he was a Diest for most of his
      > life.
      >
      >"", French author and playwright
      > (1694-1778).
      >
      > Frank Zappa
      >
      >"If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have
      > people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the
      > idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been
      > bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks,
      >"
      >
      > -Frank Zappa, American musician
      >
      >
      > Galileo Galilei
      >
      >"They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may
      > oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had
      > no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy
      >"
      >
      > -Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer
      >
      > Freidrich Nietzsche
      >
      >""
      >
      >"So long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and
      > poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there
      >"
      >
      >"The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice
      > of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the
      > same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation."
      >
      >"All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the
      > intellectual immaturity of the human race – before it had learned the
      > obligations to speak the truth. Not one of them makes it the duty of
      > its God to be truthful and understandable in his communications."
      >
      >"The most serious parody I have ever heard was this: In the beginning
      >"
      >
      >"There is no devil and no hell. Thy soul will be dead even sooner than
      >"
      >
      > - Friedrich Nietzsche, German philologist and philosopher (1844-1900).
      >
      > Gene Roddenberry
      >
      >"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power
      > of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell
      > of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of
      > idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing
      >"
      >
      >"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing
      > all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for
      >"
      >
      > -Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek (1921-1991).
      >
      >
      > George Bernard Shaw
      >
      >"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the
      >"
      >
      >"At present there is not a single credible established religion in the
      >"
      >
      > - George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright (1856-1950).
      >
      >
      > Arthur Rubenstein, Polish-American pianist (1886-1982).
      > During a radio interview with Rubenstein the conversation took a sharp
      >"Mr.
      >""No.
      >"
      >
      > Gloria Steinam
      >
      >"By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in
      >"
      >
      >"It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something
      > now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their
      >"
      >
      > -Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
      >
      >
      > Helen Keller
      >
      >"There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being
      > rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me
      > to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the
      > knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for
      >"
      >
      > -Helen Keller, American lecturer
      >
      > James Madison, American president and political theorist (1751-1836).
      >"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
      > Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in
      > all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility
      >& Quotessuperstition, bigotry,
      > and persecution."
      >"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the
      >"
      >"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for
      >"
      >
      >"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments
      > had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the
      > thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as
      > the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to
      > subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient
      > auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate
      >"
      >
      > During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
      > Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in
      > all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility
      > in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
      >
      > -John Adams, U.S. President, Founding Father of the United States
      >
      >"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions,
      > Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      >"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no
      >"
      >
      > John Stuart Mill
      >
      >"The time appears to me to have come when it is the duty of all to
      >"
      >
      > - John Stuart Mill, English philosopher and economist (1806-1873).
      > Freethinker, if not strictly atheist.
      >
      >
      > Karl Marx
      >
      >"The wretchedness of religion is at once an expression and a protest
      > against real wretchedness. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed
      > creature, the feeling of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit
      >"
      >
      >"The social principles of Christianity preach cowardice,
      > self-contempt, abasement, submission, humility, in a word all the
      >"
      >
      > - Karl Marx, German political philosopher and economist (1818-1883).
      >
      > Leo Tolstoy
      >
      >"To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the
      >"
      >
      > -Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary
      >
      >
      > Marilyn Manson
      >
      >""
      >
      > -Marilyn Manson, American rock musician
      >
      > Kurt Vonnegut
      >
      >"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I
      >"
      >
      > -Kurt Vonnegut, American author
      >
      >
      > Napoleon Bonaparte
      >
      >""
      >
      >""
      >
      >""
      >
      > -Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
      >
      > Dr. James Watson
      >
      >"I don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of
      > evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you
      >"
      >
      > -Dr. James Watson, American biologist, (Discoverer of DNA.)
      >
      >
      > Frank Zappa, American musician (1940-1993).
      >""
      >""
      >"If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have
      > people love you, fine -- but to hang all this desperate sociology on
      > the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've
      > been bad or good -- and CARES about any of it -- to hang it all on
      >" [The Real
      >"" chapter) by Frank Zappa and
      > Peter Occhiogrosso, p. 301]
      >
      > Jawaharlal Nehru, Indian statesman (1889-1964).
      >"No country or people who
      >" [Key Ideas
      > in Human Thought]
      >
      > James Joyce, Irish author (1882-1941).
      > Joyce rejected Catholicism and indeed all religion when he was a young
      > man (as portrayed in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man). He
      >"", and deplored its
      >"For me there is ony one alternative to
      >" He also rejected the church's moralizing,
      > etc. etc.
      >
      >"" Mencken, American editor and critic (1880-1956).
      >"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same
      > sense and to the same extent that we respect his theory that his wife
      >"
      >"""Treatise
      >"]
      >"Since the early days, [the church] has thrown itself violently
      > against every effort to liberate the body and mind of man. It has
      > been, at all times and everywhere, the habitual and incorrigible
      > defender of bad governments, bad laws, bad social theories, bad
      > institutions. It was, for centuries, an apologist for slavery, as it
      >"
      >"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence
      > of the improbable. . . . A man full of faith is simply one who has
      > lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He
      >"
      >"God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the
      > miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind
      > of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them
      >" [from the alt.quotations archive, found from
      > http://www.starlingtech.com/quotes/search.html%5d
      >"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in
      > veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above
      >" [1925]
      >"Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to
      >"
      >"For centuries, theologians have attempted to explain the unknowable
      > in terms of the-not-worth-"
      >"The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the
      >"
      >
      >
      > John Lennon, British musician (1940-1980).
      > Lennon rejected religion and dogma, but he was not really an atheist -
      > he espoused a sort of vague spirituality.
      >
      >""
      >"Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us,
      > Above us only sky, imagine all the people Living for today. . .
      > Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or
      >"
      >
      >""
      >"God is a concept By which we measure Our pain
      > I don't believe in magic
      > I don't believe in I-Ching
      > I don't believe in Bible
      > I don't believe in Tarot
      > I don't believe in Hitler
      >"
      >
      >""
      >"There ain't no Jesus gonna come from the sky Now that I found out I
      >"
      >
      >"" Disney, American cartoonist, showman, and film producer
      > (1901-1966).
      > I had one report that Disney was non-religious. Apparently, he was not
      > a member of any religion and did not attend services. Also, he
      >"" and
      > off-limits to the press, perhaps to conceal it was not religious.
      >"" on Disney Dollars!
      >
      > Olof Palme, Swedish prime minister (1927-1986).
      > Palme is said to be partly responsible for the current state of
      > wide-spread disbelief in Sweden. He had conflicts with the Church of
      > Sweden during his administration, because he wished to separate it
      >"human beings will find a balanced
      > situation when they do good things not because God says it, but
      >"
      >
      > Margaret Sanger, American birth control activist, founder of Planned
      > Parenthood (1883-1966).
      >""
      >
      >
      > Frank Lloyd Wright
      >
      >""
      >
      > -
      >
      > Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect (1869-1959).
      >
      >
      > Denis Diderot
      >
      >"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the
      >"
      >
      > -Denis Diderot, French philosopher, author, and encyclopedist (1713-1784).
      >
      > Sir Alfred Hitchcock, British film director (1899-1980).
      > I have heard that in later life, Hitchcock become areligious. If you
      > have any information on his beliefs, please let me know. Here is an
      > anecdote that may illustrate his growing anti-religious sentiments.
      > (Though at the time he was apparently still a church-going Catholic.)
      > Driving through a Swiss city one day, Hitchcock suddenly pointed out
      >"That is the most frightening sight I have
      >" His companion was surprised to see nothing more alarming
      > that a priest in conversation with a little boy, his hand on the
      >"" cried Hitchcock, leaning out of
      >""
      >
      >
      > Karl Popper, Austrian/British philosopher (1902-1994).
      > He was the author of such well-known works as The Logic of Scientific
      > Discovery, The Open Society and Its Enemies, The Poverty of
      > Historicism, Conjectures and Refutations, and many others. He was
      > particularly influential in the philosophy of science for his defense
      > of fallibilism and his critique of induction. Popper described himself
      > as an agnostic, and he was a member of the Academy of Humanism.
      > The magazine, Skeptic Vol. 6, No. 2 (1998) features a 1969 interview
      >"" by Edward
      > Zerin. In this interview Popper discusses his agnosticism, his
      > attitudes towards both Judaism and Christianity, the reasons for his
      > disbelief which he combined with a respect for the moral teachings of
      > both religions.
      >
      >
      > Richard Burton, Welsh actor (1925-1984).
      > According to the Denver Post, Richard Burton wrote this in his diary
      >"The more I read about man and his maniacal ruthlessness and
      > his murderous envious scatological soul, the more I realize that he
      > will never change. Our stupidity is immortal, nothing will change it.
      > The same mistakes, the same prejudices, the same injustice, the same
      > lusts wheel endlessly around the parade ground of the centuries.
      > Immutable and ineluctable. I wish I could believe in a god of some
      >"
      >
      >
      > Irving Berlin, Russian-born American lyricist and composer (1888-1989).
      > In her biography of her father, Irving Berlin: A Daughter's Memoir,
      >"agnosticism," (p.123) and
      >"nonbeliever," (p.124
      >
      > George Orwell (1903-1950).
      > Orwell's biography calls him an atheist. His books also have themes
      > that are explicitly and/or suggestively anti-religious. In Animal
      > Farm, the parody was a raven named Moses who told the animals stories
      > about a great mountain in the sky that they would go to when they
      > died, called Sugar Candy Mountain. In 1984, the concept of Big Brother
      > is a parody of God: You never see him, but the fact of him is drilled
      > into so many people's minds that they become robots, almost. Plus, if
      > you speak bad against Big Brother, it's a Thoughtcrime.
      >
      > Robert A. Heinlein, American science-fiction author (1907-1988).
      > Being a fiction author, all Heinlein left us is quotations from
      > characters in his novels. There are lots to choose from, here are a
      > couple from Lazarus Long in Time Enough for Love:
      >"History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has
      > any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough
      > to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most
      > people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to
      >"
      >""
      >
      > William M. Gaines, American publisher (1922-1992).
      > Founder and publisher of Mad magazine. He was quite definitely an
      > atheist, according to Frank Jacobs's biography, The MAD World of
      > William M. Gaines. When emphasizing his sincerity, Gaines would
      >"" Also, when long-time
      >"May God give you his
      >"""
      >
      >
      > Charles Schultz, American cartoonist (1922-2000).
      > In an interview in 1999, Schultz said that although his philosophical
      >"the term that best describes me now is
      >""I despise those shallow
      > religious comics. Dennis the Menace, for instance, is the most
      > shallow. When they show him praying--I just can't stand that sort of
      > thing, talking to God about some cutesy thing that he'd done during
      > the day. I don't think Hank Ketcham [Dennis' creator] has any deep
      >" Schultz cringed at the mention of
      > Family Circus, the strip by Bill Keane that is strewn with cutesy
      > references to Jesus (who wants to protect children on school buses,
      > but can't because of laws about separation of church and state!) and
      > those sickly-sweet images of invisible deceased grandparents looming
      >"" Schultz laughed.
      >""
      >
      > Robert A. Heinlen
      >
      >"History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has
      > any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough
      > to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most
      > people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      > -Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton.
      >
      >""
      >
      >""
      >
      >"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a
      >"
      >
      >"It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and
      > some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good
      >"
      >
      >"A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned
      >"
      >
      >"Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and
      > remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography
      > that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light … by
      >"
      >
      >"I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can
      >&
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      >"'In God We Trust.' I don't believe it would sound any better if it
      >"
      >"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother
      >"
      >"Man is a marvelous curiosity . . . he thinks he is the Creator's pet
      > . . . he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him;
      > sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out
      > of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint
      >" [Letters from the Earth]
      > Mr. Clemens was once asked whether he feared death. He said that he
      > did not, in view of the fact that he had been dead for billions and
      > billions of years before he was born, and had not suffered the
      > slightest inconvenience from it.
      >
      >"", American author and humorist (1835-1910).
      >
      > Marquis de Sade, French libertine (1740-1814).
      > In his dialogue, Philosophy in the Bedroom, de Sade insults and
      > derides Christianity several times. In his novel 120 Days of Sodom, he
      >"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I
      >""Dialogue Between a Priest and a
      >" which can be found online, is clearly the work of someone
      > with contempt for religion.
      >
      > Robert G. Ingersoll
      >
      >""
      >
      >"The inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the person
      >"
      >
      >"Fear believes—courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays---
      > courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is
      > civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      >"Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on
      >"
      >
      >"For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits
      > and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments,
      > depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our
      > surroundings.
      >
      > Environment is a sculptor -- a painter. If we had been born in
      > Constantinople, then most of us would have said: 'There is no God but
      > Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.' If our parents had lived on the
      > banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing
      > for the heaven of Nirvana. As a rule, children love their parents,
      > believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      >"All who doubted or denied would be lost. -- To live a moral and
      > honest life - to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child –
      > to make a happy home - to be a good citizen - a patriot - a just and
      >"
      >
      >"God did not reward men for being honest, generous and brave, but for
      > the act of faith. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins.
      > And the men who practiced these virtues, without faith, deserved to
      > suffer eternal pain. All of these comforting and reasonable things
      > were taught by the ministers in their pulpits -- by teachers in Sunday
      > schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were
      > assaulted in the cradle -- in their mother's arms. Then, the
      > schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense, and all
      > the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The
      > poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled
      >"
      >
      >"Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who
      >"
      >
      > - Robert Green Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer (1833-1899).
      >
      > Robert Frost
      >
      >"I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad
      >"
      >
      >"Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great
      >"
      >
      >"I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his
      >"
      >
      > -Robert Frost, American poet
      >
      >
      > Susan B. Anthony
      >
      >"I was born a heretic. I always distrust people who know so much about
      >"
      >
      > - Susan B. Anthony, American suffragist (1820-1906).
      >
      >
      > Vincent Van Gogh
      >
      >"I can very well do without God both in my life and in my painting,
      > but I cannot, suffering as I am, do without something which is greater
      >"
      >
      > -Vincent Van Gogh, Dutch painter
      >
      > Thomas Jefferson (Deist)
      >
      >"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
      > maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
      > ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will
      >" – Thomas Jefferson to
      > Baron von Humboldt, 1813
      >
      >"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as
      > the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a
      > three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to
      > know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs
      > to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are
      >"
      >
      >"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction
      > of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet
      >" –Thomas Jefferson,
      > Notes on Virginia, 1782.
      >
      >"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
      > supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed
      > with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.
      > But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in
      > these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and
      > restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most
      >" –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John
      > Adams, April 11, 1823
      >
      >"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies."
      >
      >""
      >
      >""
      >
      >"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no
      >"
      >
      > - Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect,
      > educator, and diplomat
      >
      > Madalyn Murray O'Hair, American atheist activist (1923-1995).
      > O'Hair challenged prayer in the schools in the US Supreme Court
      > (Murray vs. Curlett) and won. She went on to found American Atheists
      > and became perhaps America's most infamous and outspoken atheist. When
      >"""Oh,
      > absolutely! I feel that everyone has a right to be insane. And that
      > they can do this any place at all. If they want religious schools,
      > build them! My only problem with that is, do not ask for the land to
      > be tax-free. Do not ask for a government grant to build them. Do not
      > ask for money for teacher's salaries, or more books, or anything else.
      > Just go ahead and do your thing, and do it yourself. Just exactly the
      > same as if you were a nudist. Somebody doesn't get a tax break for
      > being a Mason, or whatever they're interested in. [Interview in
      > Freedom Writer magazine, March 1989]
      >
      >
      > William Howard Taft
      >
      >"I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other
      >"
      >
      > - William Howard Taft, U.S. President
      >
      >
      > Thomas Edison
      >
      >""
      >
      >"I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk
      > of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It
      > is born of our tenacity of life – our desire to go on living … our
      >"
      >
      > - Thomas Edison, American inventor (1847-1931).
      >
      >""
      >
      >"The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason. I
      >"
      >
      >"Revelation is a communication of something which the person to whom
      > the thing id revealed did not know before. For if I have done, a
      > thing, or seen it done, it needs no Revelation to tell me, I have done
      > or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write it. Revelation
      > therefore cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man
      > is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part
      > of the Bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the
      > meaning and compass of the word Revelation and therefore is not the
      >"-- Thomas Paine The Age of Reason
      >
      >"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries,
      > the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with
      > which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
      > that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a
      > history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
      >" From - The Age of Reason
      >
      >"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
      > Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
      >"
      >
      > Labeled an atheist, but actually a deist, raised by Quakers, who was
      > extremely critical of organized religion. According to Carl Sagan in
      >"later generations reviled him for his social
      > and religious views. Theodore Roosevelt called him a 'filthy little
      > atheist.' . . . He is probably the most illustrious American
      >"
      > The Age of Reason also attacks Christianity as a system of
      >"""serves the purposes of
      >" When the book reached England, several sellers were
      > convicted of blasphemy and jailed.
      >"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is
      >"
      >
      > - Thomas Paine, English born American author and revolutionary leader
      > (1737-1809).
      >
      > Sigmund Freud
      >
      >"Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a
      >"
      >
      >""
      >
      >"The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that
      > to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think
      > that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above
      >"
      >
      > Freud certainly regarded belief in God as an illusion that mature men
      > and women should lay aside. The idea of God was not a lie but a device
      > of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A
      > personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire
      > for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful,
      > protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on
      > forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and
      > worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness.
      > Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a
      > necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had
      > promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that
      > humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind. [A
      > History of God]
      >
      > -Sigmund Freud, Austrian physician and pioneer psychoanalyst (1856-1939).
      >
      > Charles Laughton, English-born American actor (1899-1962).
      > Atheism mentioned in his wife's autobiography, Charles and I (Elsa
      > Lanchester, 1938)
      >
      >
      > Jonathan Swift
      >
      >"We have just enough religion to make us hate but not enough religion
      >"
      >
      >
      > Oscar Wilde -
      >
      >"When I think of all the harm the Bible has done, I despair of ever
      >" [Oscar Wilde – Author]
      >
      > Thomas Henry Huxley, English biologist (1825-1895).
      >""
      >"...inclined to think that not far from the invention of fire must
      >"
      >"Henceforward, I might hope to hear no more of the assertion that we
      > [Agnostics] are necessarily Materialists, Idealists, Atheists,
      > Theists, or any other ists, if experience had led me to think that the
      > proved falsity of a statement was any guarantee against its
      > reputation. Those who appreciate the nature of our position will see,
      > at once, that when Ecclesiasticism declares that we ought to believe
      > this, that, and the other, and are very wicked if we don't, it is
      > impossible for us to give any answer but this: We have not the
      > slightest objection to believe anything you like, if you will give us
      > good grounds for belief; but, if you cannot, we must respectfully
      > refuse, even if that refusal should wreck morality and insure our own
      > damnation several times over. We are quite content to leave that
      > decision to the future. The course of the past has impressed us with
      > the firm conviction that no good ever comes out of falsehood, and we
      >"
      >""]
      >
      >"That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective
      > truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically
      > justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my
      > opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism."
      >
      > -Thomas Henry Huxley, English biologist
      >
      > Ambrose Bierce, American writer (1842-1914?).
      > Author of The Devil's Dictionary. Here are some entries:
      > FAITH: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks
      > without knowledge, of things without parallel.
      > RELIGION: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the
      > nature of the Unknowable.
      > OCEAN: A body of water occupying about two thirds of a world made for
      > man- who has no gills.
      > PRAY: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a
      > single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
      >
      > SAINT: A dead sinner revised and edited.
      >"a powerful
      > subtribe of the Hypocrites, whose principal industries are murder and
      >".
      > For more information on Ambrose Bierce, visit the Ambrose Bierce
      > Appreciate Society.
      >
      >
      > Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet (1792-1822).
      > Thrown out of Oxford University for writing the essay, The Necessity
      > of Atheism in 1810.
      >""
      >"It is easier to suppose that the universe has existed for all
      > eternity than to conceive a being beyond its limits capable of
      >"
      >
      > Other dead Atheists
      >
      > Anaxagoras, Greek philosopher (500?-428? BCE).
      > . . . probably the first freethinker we know of to be condemned for
      >""He regarded the conventional gods as mythic
      > abstractions endowed with anthropomorphic attributes. His writings led
      > him to a dungeon, charged with impiety, probably about the year 450
      >" Only the intervention of the great statesman and orator
      > Pericles saved Anaxagoras from a death sentence. He had to pay a fine
      > and, according to some accounts, was banished. He lived his final
      > years in exile.
      >
      >"" of Melos, Greek poet, (5th cent. BCE).
      > Threw a wooden image of a god into a fire, remarking that the deity
      > should perform another miracle and save itself. The uproar this caused
      >"Athens outlawed him
      > and offered a reward for his capture dead or alive. He lived out his
      >"
      >
      > Democritus, Greek philosopher (460?-357 BCE).
      > The father of Materialism. Argued that mechanical relationships or
      > arrangements of the atoms account for various characteristics of
      > nature, the intimation here being that the natural order of the world
      > resulted from chance. Even morality, the soul, and all mental life are
      > reducible to mechanistic terms with physical imperceptible atoms as
      > their basic structure. Spiritual reality does not exist; what appears
      > to be spiritual is attributed simply to subperceptible atomic
      > structure or else to mere superstition. Hence, the Democritan
      > philosophy of mechanistic Materialism is complete, self-sufficient,
      > and self-contained. [History of Philosophy] [Visit The Philosophy Garden
      >
      > Epicurus, Greek philosopher (341-270 BCE).
      > As a Materialist, Epicurus accepted the idea that the soul consists of
      > atomic material which disintegrates at death, at which time all
      > sensation ceases. Consequently, he said, death need not be a matter of
      > anxious concern, inasmuch as it is merely the state in which all
      > sensation ceases. [History of Philosophy] [Visit The Philosophy Garden]
      >
      >"" Roman stoic philosopher, writer,
      > and politician (4-65).
      >"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
      >"
      >
      > John of Lackland, English King (1199-1216) (1167?-1216).
      > John may not have been a bonafide atheist, but he moved farther in
      > that direction than was common in medieval times. From the biography,
      >"John's
      > bad press in the monastic chronicles may be attributed to his failures
      > as a king *and his cynical contempt for religion*; he quarrelled with
      > the Church during his reign and was excommunicated. 'He led such a
      > dissipated life that he ceased to believe in the resurrection of the
      > dead and other articles of the Christian faith...'(Medieval
      > chroniclers Roger of Wendover and Matthew Paris; quoted in Weir).
      > Once, upon seeing a buck slaughtered, at the end of a hunt, remarked
      > 'You happy beast, never forced to patter prayers nor dragged to Holy
      >" (Paris, in Weir).
      >
      > Christopher Marlowe, English dramatist and poet (1564-1593).
      >"I count religion but a childish toy and hold there is no sin but
      >" - the character Machiavel, in The Jew of Malta,
      >"""I count religion but a
      >"
      >
      > Thomas Woolston, English writer (1669-1731) or? (1670-1733).
      > Was put under house arrest for the remainder of his life when he
      > voiced doubt about the resurrection and other Bible miracles. [Holy
      > Horrors]
      >
      >
      > Jean Meslier, French erstwhile priest (1678-1733).
      > A country priest who led an exemplary life, he died an atheist. He
      > left behind a memoir which was circulated by Voltaire. This expressed
      > his disgust with humanity and his inability to believe in God.
      > Newton's infinite space, Meslier believed, was the only eternal
      > reality: nothing but matter existed. Religion was a device used by the
      > rich to oppress the poor and render them powerless. Christianity was
      > distinguished by its particularly ludicrous doctrines, such as the
      > Trinity and the Incarnation. [A History of God]
      >
      >
      > Noel Coward, English playwright, author, and performer (1899-1973).
      > Coward proclaims several times in his diaries (The Noel Coward
      >& Nicholson 1982, ISBN 0 75380 547 2) that he is
      > an atheist, at least during the time he was writing them (1941-1969).
      >
      > David Hume, Scottish philosopher and historian (1711-1776).
      >"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless . . . its
      > falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to
      >" [Of Miracles]
      >"The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles,
      > but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person
      >"
      >"When I hear a man is religious, I conclude that he is a rascal,
      >"
      >
      >
      >"" Chaplin, British born actor, director,
      > and producer (1889-1977).
      >""
      > Quoted in Manual of a Perfect Atheist.
      >
      > Albert Camus, French author, Existential Philosopher (1913-60).
      > Preached a heroic atheism. People should reject God defiantly in order
      > to pour out all their loving solicitude upon mankind. [A History of God]
      >
      > Jean Paul Sartre, French Existential philosopher and author (1905-80).
      > Sartre insisted that even if God existed [which he did not believe],
      > it was still necessary to reject him, since the idea of God negates
      > our freedom. Traditional religion tells us that we must conform to
      > God's idea of humanity to become fully human. Instead, we must see
      > human beings as liberty incarnate. [A History of God]
      >
      >
      >"" Skinner, American Psychologist (1904-1990).
      > In an interview with CBS radio a few weeks before his death, Skinner
      >"I don't believe in God, so
      >"
      >
      > H. P. Lovecraft, American author (1890-1937).
      >"H. P. Lovecraft was strongly influenced, not only by his mother but
      > also by the books he read. . . . At five, he . . . (read) . . . a
      > junior edition of The Arabian Nights. He at once fell in love with the
      > glories of medieval Islam and spent hours playing Arab. . . . One
      > effect of dabbling in non-Christian traditions was to make Lovecraft
      > skeptical of the faith of his fathers. Before he reached his fifth
      > birthday anniversary, young Lovecraft announced that he no longer
      > believed in Santa Claus. Further private thought convinced him that
      > arguments for the existence of God suffered the same weaknesses as
      > those for Santa. At five, Lovecraft was placed in the infant class of
      > the Sunday school of the venerable First Baptist Meeting House on
      > College Hill. The results were not what the elders expected. When the
      > feeding of Christian martyrs to the lions came up, Lovecraft shocked
      >" From a
      > biography by Sprague De Camp
      >
      >". . . His skeptical view of the supernatural - his nontheism - and
      > his love of the Classical world were not the only lasting passions
      > formed in his childhood.
      >
      >". . . he embraced eighteenth-century rationalism, which confirmed him
      > in his atheistic materialism."
      >
      > Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach, German philosopher (1804-1872).
      > Feuerbach was a prominent materialist philosopher of the nineteenth
      > century. His book, The Essence of Christianity, quickly became a
      > classic of freethought literature. In that book he argued that
      > religion is the projection of human wishes and is a form of
      > alienation. He began his philosophical career as a Hegelian idealist
      > but soon moved in the direction of materialism thus encouraging the
      > Young Hegelians with whom he was associated to similiarly move. The
      > Essence of Christianity electrified the Young Hegelians, particularly
      > influencing the youthful Karl Marx who adopted and extended its theory
      > of alienation.
      >
      >
      > Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788-1860).
      > There was, Schopenhauer believed, no Absolute, no Reason, no God, no
      > Spirit at work in the world: nothing but brute instinctive will to
      > live. [A History of God]
      >
      > Sir Leslie Stephen, English writer and thinker (1832-1904).
      > Sir Leslie Stephen was one of Britain's most famous agnostics of the
      > nineteenth century. In fact while Thomas Huxley was the person who
      > coined the term agnostic it was Stephen who popularized it.
      >
      > Leslie Stephen was born into a family of prominent Evangelicals of the
      > Clapham Sect. He was educated at Eton and at Trinity Hall, Cambridge.
      > At Cambridge he was made a fellow which in those days required taking
      > holy orders and he was ordained an Anglican priest. By 1862 his
      > developing religious doubts led him to resign his fellowship and by
      > 1864 he left Cambridge for good.
      >
      > He married Thackeray's daughter, Harriet Marian in 1867 but she died
      > in 1875 leaving him one child. He later married Julia Jackson
      > Duckworth and had four children including his best known child the
      > novelist Virginia Woolf.
      >
      > After abandoning his academic career he made his living as a
      > journalist and writer. He edited the Dictionary of National Biography.
      > He also wrote extensively on history, religion, and philosophy.
      >
      > Leslie Stephen's agnosticism was rooted in considerations of the
      > problem of evil. Attempts to resolve this problem by emphasizing the
      > transcendence and incomprehensibility of God was to him simply
      > evasiveness. Such apologetics was in his view simply a disguised
      > skepticism.
      >
      > The rejection of belief in God for Stephen raised the question of how
      > to ground morality if there is no deity. That is he sought to answer
      >"If there is no God is not everything
      >" Stephen sought to answer this question in his book The
      > Science of Ethics. There he proposed a scientific ethics in which J.S.
      > Mill's utilitarianism would be synthesized with evolutionary theory.
      >
      > In addition to The Science of Ethics, Stephen wrote many other works
      > including Essays on Freethinking and Plainspeaking (1873), An
      > Agnostic's Apology and Other Essays (1893), as well as History of
      > English Thought in the Eighteenth Century (1876), and The English
      > Utilitarians (1900). [James Farmelant]
      >
      > William Howard Taft, American President and Chief Justice (1857-1930).
      > Probably not an atheist, but I thought it was interesting that an
      >"I do not believe in the
      > divinity of Christ and there are many other of the postulates of the
      >"
      >
      >
      > Rudolf Carnap, German-American philosopher (1891-1970).
      > A central figure of the Vienna Circle which was devoted to the
      > philosophy of logical positivism. In his Intellectual Autobiography
      > printed in The Philosophy of Rudolf Carnap ed. by Paul Schilpp (La
      > Salle, Illinois: Open Court, 1963) he described the basic worldview he
      > shared with the rest of the Circle. The first is the view that man has
      > no supernatural protectors or enemies . Second, we had the conviction
      > that mankind is able to change the conditions of life in such a way
      > that many of the sufferings of today may be avoided . The third is the
      > view that all deliberate action presupposes knowledge of the world ,
      > that the scientific method is the best method of acquiring knowledge
      > and that therefore science must be regarded as one of the most
      > valuable instruments for the improvement of human life. In Vienna we
      > had no names for these views; if we look for a brief designation in
      > American terminology for the combination of these three convictions,
      >"
      >
      > Joseph McCabe, English anti-religion campaigner (1867-1955).
      > One of the giants of not only English Atheism, but world Atheism,
      > Joseph McCabe left a legacy of aggressive Atheist and antireligious
      > literature that remains fresh and insightful today. His many works --
      > he wrote nearly 250 books -- could constitute a library of Atheism by
      > themselves.
      >
      > Born in 1867, Joseph McCabe became a Franciscan monk at the age of
      > nineteen. But disgusted with his fellow monks and the Christian
      > doctrine, he left the priesthood for good on February 19, 1896.
      >
      > Not long afterwards, he began to write -- first against the priesthood
      > itself and then for the position of Atheism. He was one of the
      > founding members of Britain's Rationalist Press Association, and was a
      > prolific writer for Haldeman-Julius Publications. He was also a
      > much-respected speaker, giving, by his own estimate, three or four
      > thousand lectures in the United States, Australia, and Great Britain
      > by the age of eighty. Still fighting against the injustices and
      > dishonesties of religion, he died on January 10, 1955, at the age of
      >"He was a rebel to his last
      >" [The Secular Web]
      >
      > Anton Szandor LaVey, American (1930-1997?).
      > Here is some information about LaVey, provided by Aaron Jacques:
      > LaVey Was most definitely an anti-christian, and despite his
      >"" various gods, I am quite certain he was
      > atheist. He formed the Church of Satan, not only to frighten the
      > status quo, but more as an alternative to secularism. He wrote that it
      > was necessary for man to have a fantasy element in his life. LaVey's
      > satanism provides this in the form of rich ceremonies. The idea behind
      > which is not that one is praying to an actual being, but is unleashing
      > mental/emotional/physical energies which have the power to alter the
      > state of one's existence. Most satanists don't believe in satan or any
      > other deity in a physical sense but more as a force of nature. In the
      > introduction to The Satanic Bible, Burton H. Wolfe recalls a story
      > told to him by LaVey about his youth, when he worked in a traveling
      > carnival:
      >
      >"On Saturday night, I would see men lusting after half-naked girls
      > dancing at the carnival, and on Sunday morning when I was playing
      > organ for tent-show evangelists at the other end of the carnival lot,
      > I would see these same men sitting in the pews with their wives and
      > children, asking God to forgive them and purge them of carnal desires.
      > And the next Saturday they'd be back at the carnival or some other
      > place of indulgence. I knew then that the Christianchurch thrives on
      > hypocrisy, and that man's carnal nature will out no matter how much it
      >"
      >
      > However, some claim that The Church of Satan is nothing more than a
      >"" to take people's money (there is a
      > $100 membership fee). The Church of Satan web site.
      >
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > --- In KLOS_Impact@yahoogroups.com<merrieka@..> wrote:
      >>
      >> No, we got the point.  We just don't agree with you -- er, Ben Stein. 
      >>
      >> Merrie, atheist
      >>
      >>
      >><jeffro1032000@> wrote:
      >><jeffro1032000@>
      >> Subject: Re: [KLOS_Impact] Re: Fw: (no subject)
      >> To: KLOS_Impact@yahoogroups.com
      >> Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 4:18 PM
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> I think the point was missed here
      >>
      >>
      >> Jeff
      >>
      >
      >
    • Dr.KEV
      I don t understand how my being a proponent of inalienable rights for everyone gets translated into supposedly arguing that only white male property owners
      Message 63 of 63 , Jan 2, 2009
        I don't understand how my being a proponent of inalienable rights for everyone gets translated into supposedly arguing that only white male property owners should be able to vote!

        Yes slavery was horrible, but at least slaves were provided with housing and food. I'm not arguing in favor of slavery when I point out that many 'workers' today experience more hardship than the average slave in US did.

        Given that every time a black millionaire steps out of line and tries to do something positive with their money for the community, they get stopped, one way or another, one could argue that basketball players, etc., are just high paid glorified modern day slaves. Well taken care of, as long as they don't wander off the reservation.

        Plenty of white poor folk have been endentured and abused by rich pigs too!

        The issue isn't race but it is slavery. The rich pigs who have been systematically plundering US for the last 45 years are now in the final stages of turning US into an abject military police state, reducing everyone essentially to slavery.

        I'm trying to prevent that, what are you doing?




        At 11:15 PM 1/1/2009 -0800, you wrote:
        > And yes with all the checks and balances,
        >this country is about to go down the tubes.
        >
        >--- On Tue, 12/30/08, DrKEV <DrKEV@YOGA-TV.> wrote:
        > <DrKEV@YOGA-TV.>
        >Subject: [KLOS_Impact] Re: Honestly Kev, Famous Atheist Quotes - getting
        >the point [was: R
        >To: KLOS_Impact@yahoogroups.com
        >Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 1:18 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >Reverting back to the original intent of the Constitution hardly means
        >reestablishing slavery. The War on Drugs did that!
        >
        >In fact slavery was a better standard of living and more costly to
        >bosses than the current fascist/communist system now engulfing the
        >planet as well as the US. In these regimes, people are reduced to
        >below the level of slaves. At least slaves got free food and housing,
        >and were more oft than not treated humanely. Go visit an underground
        >sweatshop in L.A. sometime!
        >
        >Many would argue that slavery is part of natural law. I don't.
        >
        >The founders called them inalienable rights, establishing that no lien
        >may be placed on them, and sidestepping the use of the phrase "god given."
        >
        >Reverting means closing down all the military bses overseas, ending
        >the WoD, stabilizing the dollar, wiping out public debt, creating
        >prosperity, that sort of thing.
        >
        >Social Security sounded like a good idea but the corrupt people in big
        >govt stole the money. So it wasn't such a good idea after all.
        >
        >-KEV
        >
        >--- In KLOS_Impact@ yahoogroups. com<> wrote:
        >>
        >> I am not an atheist. Where you say God, I say Creator. Same entity,
        >known by many names. As for God given rights, I would suggest calling
        >them natural rights. The rights one is bestowed with, as a human
        > To speak of God given rights while restricting the rights of
        >particular groups is ungodly, don't you think?
        >>
        >> Jefferson, and some of the other "founding fathers" were slave
        > Were it not for the Three-Fifths Clause, Thomas Jefferson
        >would not have been elected president in 1800. In number of actual
        >votes cast, John Adams was reelected. But when the vote was thrown
        >into the Electoral College, Jefferson won by virtue of the
        >preponderance of the slave power¢s vote. The slaveholders would
        >control the presidency for 41 of the next 50 years. 18 of 31 Supreme
        >Court justices would be slave-holders. At the time of the Dred Scott
        >decision, a majority of the justices sitting on the Supreme Court were
        >slave owners. With the South in the saddle of national politics,
        >Missouri and Kansas were added as slave states, and had it been
        >otherwise, Andrew Jackson would not have been able to remove the
        >Native Americans from the South.
        >>
        >>
        >><> wrote:
        >>
        >><>
        >> Subject: Re: [KLOS_Impact] Re: Honestly Kev, Famous Atheist Quotes -
        >getting the point [was: R
        >> To: KLOS_Impact@ yahoogroups. com
        >> Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 11:34 AM
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> When the Constitution was written, western civilization was evolving
        >from slavery as an institution to what we were supposed to have today,
        >where everyone is considered legally human, and equal, with equal God
        >given rights.
        >>
        >> I believe Jefferson and other founding fathers intentionally set up
        >the Constitutition to allow for the inclusioon of women and slaves
        >when the people at large caught up to the idea that we are all created
        >equal.
        >>
        >> Godless Communists want you to be an athiest too because they know
        >that, legally speaking, if there is no God then there are no
        >inalienable "God given" rights, and the State gets ultimate (godlike)
        >power over the individual.
        >>
        >> They used the phrase "endowed by our Creator" instead of the word
        >"God" or "power of the people" for a reason. They felt it was a
        >Natural Law that human beings will only tolerate so much oppression
        >before exerting their God given rights to throw off tyranny. Allowing
        >tyranny to develop is bad for all the people and leads to revolution
        >which is even worse. Recognising that people have a God given right to
        >rule themselves was an attempt to allow peace and prosperity to
        >flourish for everyone.
        >>
        >> It worked until royalist/totalitari an forces got hold of our
        >Congress and gave us the drug war so they could buy all the TV and
        >make you afraid to do anything but stay home get stoned and watch more
        >TV. So they could fill your head with bullshit, so they could distract
        >you from the important issues of our time. Like how trillions in dope
        >money has been used to buy TV, military, pharma, insurance, industry,
        >etc. etc.... Not to mention gerryrigging the markets to create bubbles
        >that allow them to buy up even more for pennies on dollar.
        >>
        >> ...To buy up banks and bribe congress to deregulate so they can
        >operate pyramid derrivatives scams, not unlike the scams that crashed
        >the savings and loan industry in the 80s.
        >>
        >> Now the people with all the money and power are bringing the troops
        >in to police the 'homeland,' because they have bankrupted the treasury
        >and the people, and they know that sooner rather than later, the sh*t
        >is going to hit the fan as people demand their god given rights, a
        >handshake, and a free donut.
        >>
        >> We live in interesting times, as the chinese curse states. You
        >better hope there is a god. If we do sink into a hyper-depression, you
        >will wish there is one.
        >>
        >> At 10:33 AM 12/28/2008 -0800, lilah wrote:
        >>>
        >> If they were God given, they would be for everyone, no man would
        >have the power to restrict, or deny them. Since people only have the
        >rights they are allowed to have , they can't be God given. The
        >Constitution is a very good example, it only guaranteed the God given
        >rights for certain people, citizens. How could that be divine in
        >nature if " all men are created equal"?
        >>
        >>><> wrote:
        >>><>
        >>>Subject: Re: [KLOS_Impact] Re: Honestly Kev, Famous Atheist Quotes -
        >>>getting the point [was: R
        >>>To: KLOS_Impact@ yahoogroups. com
        >>>Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 6:20 PM
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>Rights are *exercised* (if they exist), not *administered. * Govt takes
        >>>rights, it never gives them. The Constitution limits the powers of
        >govt. It
        >>>does not 'grant' rights. It only recognizes that if tyranny reaches a
        >>>certain level, the people will overthrow it. Therefore it is best
        >if govt
        >>>meddles as little as possible in peoples' lives. Too bad Obamyamama
        >dont
        >>>know this.
        >>>
        >>>At 06:04 PM 12/28/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>> yes by men,women.
        >>>> and where do those thoughts come from?
        >>>> its a legit question
        >>>>
        >>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>
        >>>>> History has
        >>>> God given rights are administered at will, by
        >>>> men.
        >>>>>
        >>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>
        >>>>><>
        >>>>> Subject: Re: [KLOS_Impact] Re: Honestly Kev, Famous Atheist Quotes -
        >>>> getting the point [was: R
        >>>>> To: KLOS_Impact@ yahoogroups. com
        >>>>> Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 8:07 AM
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>> This is like the third time you spewed 'juju,' cut and ran. Yes
        >>>> please don't respond. You are full of hate and no logic. Typical
        >>>> fundamentalist. Hardly the epitome of mental health. And who ever
        >>>> said anything about 'invisible friends?' It is like we are having
        >two
        >>>> different conversations. Like you are talking to, well, an invisible
        >>>> friend, or something, and showing no clue of understanding what I
        >>>> write. Folks, Rick is a perfect example of how unevolved Social
        >>>> Darwinists are. They are the children of the eugenics movement,
        >don't
        >>>> you know?
        >>>>>
        >>>>> If you define god in your own terms and then reject her, based on
        >>>> your limited understanding and experience, you will remain ever
        >>>> ignorant, and never see the light. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
        >Neurotic
        >>>> narcissism?
        >>>>>
        >>>>> My guess is that you were (un)educated in public schools. Never
        >>>> learned how to learn, or think for yourself. Programmed into
        >>>> believing govt has the right to regulate every aspect of our lives,
        >>>> in order to reduce CO2 emissions, and make sure you're not smoking
        >>>> pot, let alone communing with god with entheogens!! ! Let alone the
        >>>> notion that animals have more rights than people.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> If there is no god, then you have no god-given rights. Please move
        >>>> to North Korea where people believe as you do!
        >>>>>
        >>>>> At 01:01 PM 12/25/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>> Funny you would hide behind the fact that
        >>>>>>Sontag also believes in
        >>>>>> invisible friends. He has nothing to do with your own belief in
        >>>>>> invisible friends. I listen to Franks show now and then because
        >>>> in
        >>>>>> general I agree with his views more than I disagree with them. I
        >>>>>> could care less about any 'mountain Juju' beliefs he might or
        >>>> might
        >>>>>> not have. Especially when you consider he's had level headed
        >>>> guest on
        >>>>>> his show such as Capt Paul Watson, who is 100% atheist. (atheist
        >>>>>> being another word for 'sane')
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Frank does bring nuts like B. Creme(spelling? ) on, but most of
        >>>> Franks
        >>>>>> guest are pretty good.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Anyway, you and I are not getting anywhere with each other on the
        >>>>>> invisible friends topic, so I'll keep wearing my seat belt, and
        >>>> you
        >>>>>> keep an eye on the mountain, and we'll just have to leave it at
        >>>> that.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Over and out,
        >>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> At 04:46 PM 12/24/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>>>> Hard to believe you could possibly
        >>>>>> think
        >>>>>>>>there is an 'even' chance as
        >>>>>>>> to whether there is an after life, or not. The odds of there
        >>>>>> being an
        >>>>>>>> afterlife of any kind are minuscule to say the least.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> have you never heard about frank's obe?
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> Deep down under
        >>>>>>>> all your spiritual fantasies you fully realize whether you
        >>>> admit
        >>>>>> it
        >>>>>>>> or not, that you better wear your seat belt, duck if someone
        >>>>>> fires a
        >>>>>>>> gun in your direction, and so on, and so on, regarding anything
        >>>>>>>> overly risky in a life threatening way. You instinctively
        >>>> protect
        >>>>>>>> yourself if you're 'playing with a full deck' because nature
        >>>>>> dictates
        >>>>>>>> our every move pretty much.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> 'pretty much'?
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> i tempted fate a lot when i was an adolescent living in a war
        >>>> zone
        >>>>>> with a motorcycle. until the odds that Something wanted me alive
        >>>> to
        >>>>>> tell the tale (i suppose) could no longer be denied. when i
        >>>> realized
        >>>>>> Something greater than i actually had a purpose for me, i stopped
        >>>>>> tempting fate recklessly.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> many profound and subtle experiences leaves me with no doubt
        >>>> that
        >>>>>> Something exists. perpetuation of individual consciousness seems
        >>>> to
        >>>>>> be an act of will, if it exists. if we are raindrops of spirit
        >>>>>> falling into the sea, being and knowing all, perpetuation of
        >>>>>> individual consciousness seems to be a silly thing to cling to.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> i'm still looking for evidence that rick is more intelligent
        >>>> than
        >>>>>> the Universe. not surprised he is not interested in immortality.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> No matter how delusional one gets, nature will unconsciously
        >>>>>> attempt
        >>>>>>>> to keep our body and mind healthy. In your case one thing
        >>>> nature
        >>>>>> has
        >>>>>>>> indirectly done is allow you to come up with all kinds of
        >>>>>> spiritual
        >>>>>>>> fantasies to get you through your life.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> if anyone here seems to be desperately dependent on a crutch, it
        >>>> is
        >>>>>> you.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> Nature will allow you to
        >>>>>>>> indulge in these fantasies provided you don't go to far and
        >>>> take
        >>>>>> to
        >>>>>>>> drinking poison cool aid, or putting on the black Nike's with
        >>>>>>>> the 'Heavens Gate cult' etc. Hopefully you're sane enough not
        >>>> to
        >>>>>> let
        >>>>>>>> your spiritual fantasies overtake your survival instincts. I
        >>>>>> trust
        >>>>>>>> you are, but you do at times sound like you wandered off the
        >>>>>> sanity
        >>>>>>>> trail a bit, at least when it comes to believing in invisible
        >>>>>>>> friends.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> you seem dependent on ad hominem derrisive sidestepping and
        >>>>>> twisting of the facts.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> I do fully realize that some people just need that 'crutch'
        >>>>>>>> though. At least you're not taking psychotropic drugs. At least
        >>>> I
        >>>>>>>> assume you're not.
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> now you dys entheogens. i wonder why? they just took shrooms of
        >>>> the
        >>>>>> market here, thanks to ignorant fools who propagate hate toward
        >>>>>> entheogens. thanks rick.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> http://gnosticmedia .com
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> you use 'athiesm' as an excuse to have no humility and no
        >>>> respect.
        >>>>>> next are you going to open a church and pose as a prewacher for
        >>>> the
        >>>>>> fame, bucks. and glory?
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> is there some reason why i should believe you are really pro-
        >>>>>> ecology if you obviously remain willfully ignorant of the gaia
        >>>>>> hypothesis? if you dont believe in reincarnation, why should i
        >>>>>> believe you give a damn about the environment? let alone fellow
        >>>> human
        >>>>>> beings?
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> As I said before, you have convinced me that you have never
        >>>>>>>> experienced divinity. Kind of embarassing if you ask me, to
        >>>> boast
        >>>>>>>> about it so, but you are welcome to be stoked by your self-
        >>>>>>>> ascribed 'insightfulness' .
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> One can never explain color to the blind. Just do be a good
        >>>>>>>> citizen, ...and eat lots of cake, if you find sustainence in
        >>>>>>>> illusion. Many are called but few are chosen.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> You might benefit by accepting that your belief in athiesm
        >>>> bears
        >>>>>> no
        >>>>>>>> more weight than anyone else's belief. Some things exist that
        >>>> are
        >>>>>> yet
        >>>>>>>> unprovable in the lab. Only provable subjectively, if you care
        >>>>>> enough
        >>>>>>>>""
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> I think the odds that God would create ignorant athiests are
        >>>> so
        >>>>>>>> astronomical that nothing else can explaint it.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> god(ess) bless,
        >>>>>>>>> -KEV
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> At 05:17 AM 12/20/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>> Kev, you've definitely watched
        >>>>>> the
        >>>>>>>> movie
        >>>>>>>>>>'The Matrix' one to many
        >>>>>>>>>> times. My best advice for you is - eat right, exercise, keep
        >>>>>> your
        >>>>>>>>>> stress level low, avoid dangerous hobbies. All this will help
        >>>>>> you
        >>>>>>>>>> exist as long as possible because once its over, its over.
        >>>>>> Sorry
        >>>>>>>> to
        >>>>>>>>>> burst your pipe dream of an everlasting life, but that's the
        >>>>>> way
        >>>>>>>> it
        >>>>>>>>>> goes, so learn to deal with it. Its really not that tough.
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> I do happen to be a doctor and have studied genetics. I am
        >>>>>>>> familiar
        >>>>>>>>>> with several of Dawkins' videos. You however embarass
        >>>> yourself
        >>>>>> by
        >>>>>>>>>> flaunting your ignorance of and disinterest in Aurobindo,
        >>>> God,
        >>>>>>>> etc.
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> If you know of info from Dawkins or anyone that explains how
        >>>>>>>> mammals
        >>>>>>>>>> can mutate into other mammals, given that you'd need a
        >>>>>>>> simultaneous
        >>>>>>>>>> male and female mutant, please point me to it.
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>"" wacko happens screw
        >>>>>>>>>> up and quote real science in disproving popular Darwinism.
        >>>>>> Amazing
        >>>>>>>>>> things are being discovered about genes and dna, but so far
        >>>>>> there
        >>>>>>>> is
        >>>>>>>>>> more proof for the existence of 'God' than there is of popular
        >>>>>>>>>> interpretations of Darwin. Darwin didn't believe half the
        >>>> crap
        >>>>>> his
        >>>>>>>>>> current-day followers do. I guess it happens to everyone they
        >>>>>>>> make a
        >>>>>>>>>> religion out of.
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> You talk about juju!? Juju is believing one species changes
        >>>>>> into
        >>>>>>>>>> another due to natural selection. Snap out of 'either/or
        >>>>>>>> mentality'.
        >>>>>>>>>> Neither the Darwinists nor the religious fundamentalists have
        >>>> it
        >>>>>>>>>> right. The jury is still out. Believe what you will.
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> http://free- university- in-internet. blogspot. com/
        >>>>>>>>>>> Scroll down to 'athiesm' if you must see Dawkins. There's
        >>>> much
        >>>>>>>>>> better stuff to watch on the page, however. Tons of it, in
        >>>>>> fact.
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> At 02:27 AM 12/16/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Sophisticated Juju's, simple
        >>>>>>>>>> Juju's, it's
        >>>>>>>>>>>>all juju.
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Two thousand years from now if the human race is still
        >>>>>> kickin,
        >>>>>>>> the
        >>>>>>>>>>>> spiritual mumbo jumbo of that time will be even more
        >>>>>>>> sophisticated
        >>>>>>>>>>>> than it is now. It will morph with time just as it always
        >>>>>> has.
        >>>>>>>> some
        >>>>>>>>>>>> people with always need a crutch, and there's plenty of $$$
        >>>>>> to
        >>>>>>>> be made
        >>>>>>>>>>>> for the crutch providing institutions.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>> As far as your comment about mutations not being able to
        >>>>>>>> transform one
        >>>>>>>>>>>> species into another, etc. you actually sound just like a
        >>>>>>>> religious
        >>>>>>>>>>>> follower who simply repeats what they hear from other
        >>>>>>>>>>>> religious/spiritual people, as opposed to actually studying
        >>>>>> the
        >>>>>>>>>>>> subject of evolution for themselves. There's plenty of
        >>>> proof
        >>>>>> of
        >>>>>>>>>>>> species transformation. You really need to hit those
        >>>> Dawkins
        >>>>>>>> books I
        >>>>>>>>>>>> informed you about. If you don't like Dawkins, then try
        >>>> other
        >>>>>>>> books on
        >>>>>>>>>>>> evolution. Whether Dawkins name is on the book or not, it's
        >>>>>> all
        >>>>>>>> the
        >>>>>>>>>>>> same science.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> You continue to make gross malassumptions and
        >>>>>>>> misrepresentations of
        >>>>>>>>>>>> my stance. A ploy allowing you to justify to yourself
        >>>>>> personal
        >>>>>>>> attacks
        >>>>>>>>>>>> on me. You remind me of a typical fundamentalist fanatic.
        >>>>>>>> Unwilling to
        >>>>>>>>>>>> discuss the issues at hand because you have no argument.
        >>>>>>>> Changing the
        >>>>>>>>>>>> subject and tossing in red herrings like 'juju' only wins
        >>>> the
        >>>>>>>> argument
        >>>>>>>>>>>> in your own mind.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any higher level science education you know
        >>>> that
        >>>>>>>>>>>> evolution has yet to explain how mutations can transform
        >>>> one
        >>>>>>>> species
        >>>>>>>>>>>> into another. How do different organisms come to have
        >>>> greatly
        >>>>>>>> varied
        >>>>>>>>>>>> numbers of chromosomes. Why do we have fewer than chimps
        >>>> and
        >>>>>>>> even, if
        >>>>>>>>>>>> not mistaken, some bacteria!?
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> My assertion is that there is an underlying intelligence
        >>>>>> behind
        >>>>>>>>>>>> nature, that impels matter to organize itself into
        >>>> conscious
        >>>>>>>> beings.
        >>>>>>>>>>>> The intelligence that went into making your body (and an
        >>>>>>>> athiest one,
        >>>>>>>>>>>> at that!), is far greater than the intelligence you are
        >>>> using
        >>>>>> to
        >>>>>>>>>>>> 'choose' to not believe It is Real.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> Long before religion came the concept of Sanatana Dharma,
        >>>> or
        >>>>>>>>>>>> 'eternally unfolding reality.' It differs from both
        >>>>>>>> the 'Creative
        >>>>>>>>>>>>"" and the theory of Evolution. It states, as I
        >>>>>>>>>>>> interpret it, that energy and Spirit are the same thing,
        >>>>>> except
        >>>>>>>> that
        >>>>>>>>>>>> in 'modern' science energy is blind and without
        >>>> intelligence,
        >>>>>>>> and in
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Dharma, energy and consciousness, life and matter, are all
        >>>>>> the
        >>>>>>>> same
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Thing. Aurobindo points out that 'God', if She is real,
        >>>>>>>> consists of
        >>>>>>>>>>>> everything that exists, everything that doesn't exist, and
        >>>>>>>> everything
        >>>>>>>>>>>> else, is all part and parcel of the same consciousness.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> Trying to define It or limit it to our perception of
        >>>>>> morality
        >>>>>>>> and
        >>>>>>>>>>>> what 'god' should or should not be, is a waste of time.
        >>>>>> Hubris.
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Narcissism.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> Most physicists who are familiar with
        >>>>>> hindu/egyptial/ dogon/etc.
        >>>>>>>>>>>> cosmology are amazed at how they seem to have understood
        >>>> even
        >>>>>>>> quantum
        >>>>>>>>>>>> mechanics and dark matter, long before we 'discovered' such
        >>>>>>>> things!
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither evolution nor the bible thumpers have adequate
        >>>>>>>> explanations
        >>>>>>>>>>>> for how we got here, let alone where we are going. Ancient
        >>>>>>>> ageless
        >>>>>>>>>>>> wisdom is still ahead of our 'science.' What do you make of
        >>>>>>>> that?
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> -KEV
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>> At 06:33 AM 12/11/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My definition of 'chance'
        >>>>>>>> doesn't
        >>>>>>>>>>>> drift in
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any way shape or form. You
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> said life couldn't have begun by 'chance', yet your
        >>>> belief
        >>>>>> in
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> invisible friends leaves you having to ponder just how in
        >>>>>> the
        >>>>>>>> world
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your invisible friends came into being. I'll bet you
        >>>> don't
        >>>>>>>> want
        >>>>>>>>>> to say
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'EVOLUTION'.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll leave you with this. You know many spiritual
        >>>> believers
        >>>>>>>> like to
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> " ". Here's how you clear that one up
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> " ", and then all those
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> once so called mysterious things make perfect sense.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously you have not read Aurobindo. I have never
        >>>>>> advocated
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Juju.' Your definition of 'chance' seems to drift. You
        >>>> are
        >>>>>>>>>> personally
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> abusive. I don't know what damaged you, but it was not
        >>>> me.
        >>>>>>>> You are
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> free to believe what you will. If you do actually believe
        >>>>>> it
        >>>>>>>> you
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should not need others to believe it too. If it is true,
        >>>>>> time
        >>>>>>>> will
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell. You may indeed one day see God.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want or need to believe what you think is true is
        >>>>>>>> true, then
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are probably wrong. If you find truth, you will
        >>>> likely
        >>>>>>>> wish it
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't so.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peace,
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -KEV
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At 01:16 AM 12/9/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll leave meditating on
        >>>>>> Juju
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aurobindo to
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you. I'll stick to
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meditating without fantasy Juju's involved. As far as
        >>>>>> Yoga,
        >>>>>>>> I
        >>>>>>>>>> agree
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Yoga can be good for some people. Most things that
        >>>>>> can
        >>>>>>>>>>>> destress a
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person cant be all bad. Again, one doesnt need to bring
        >>>>>> the
        >>>>>>>>>> Juju on
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the mountain into there Yoga practice though. Yoga can
        >>>>>>>> destress
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without the Juju fantasy's.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, as far as you saying you do not believe that life
        >>>>>> came
        >>>>>>>>>> about by
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mere chance. Fact is you do believe things come into
        >>>>>>>> existence
        >>>>>>>>>>>> by mere
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance. You actually believe 'your' Juju came into
        >>>>>> existence
        >>>>>>>>>> by mere
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance. You have placed the cart before the horse even.
        >>>>>>>> Wow, talk
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about a fantasy on steroids! Kev, you definitely need
        >>>> to
        >>>>>> go
        >>>>>>>> look
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>" oh my gosh I do believe in chance
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after all. Aurobindo of the mountain has deceived me. I
        >>>>>> need
        >>>>>>>>>>>> some soy
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway Kev, I know you need your Juju crutch. Don't
        >>>>>> worry,
        >>>>>>>> I'm not
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to take it from you, as long as you keep Juju in
        >>>>>> your
        >>>>>>>>>> closet,
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not on a which burning mission, etc. I do know that
        >>>>>> some
        >>>>>>>>>> people
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely can not live without a strong belief in
        >>>>>> invisible
        >>>>>>>>>>>> friends.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to be in that group. If that crutch keeps your
        >>>>>>>> immune
        >>>>>>>>>>>> system
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong, than by all means keep it if you need to. Again
        >>>>>>>>>> though, keep
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the chanting to invisible friends in the closet. It's
        >>>> just
        >>>>>>>>>> saner if
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you will......Although, I not sure how sane us hominids
        >>>>>> can
        >>>>>>>>>>>> really be,
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as we're not showing much sanity at this point. Every
        >>>>>>>> little bit
        >>>>>>>>>>>> helps
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, OK! You have more than convinced me that you have
        >>>>>> never
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced God(dess). I never mentioned believing in
        >>>> some
        >>>>>>>>>>>> god-person
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"" me. You have defined god in your own way and
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep trying to impose that definition on me. I say I
        >>>>>>>> believe in
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oranges and you say 'silly juju, apples dont exist.'
        >>>>>>>> Meditate on
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aurobindo. Consider his argument. I find it quite
        >>>>>>>> compelling.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The nice thing about yoga is that it admits that
        >>>> belief
        >>>>>> in
        >>>>>>>>>> god has
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utility only because it helps many people live without
        >>>>>> fear
        >>>>>>>> of
        >>>>>>>>>>>> death.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It reduces their stress level and promotes
        >>>> parasympathetic
        >>>>>>>>>> activity
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that heals and repairs the body.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be enough for me, but then there are all
        >>>> those
        >>>>>>>>>>>> paranormal
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences and synchrnicities that occur when you
        >>>>>> actually
        >>>>>>>> do
        >>>>>>>>>>>> listen
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to and follow the 'still small voice' within you. The
        >>>> odds
        >>>>>>>>>> that you
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> came into existance, body mind and soul, by mere
        >>>> chance,
        >>>>>> are
        >>>>>>>>>> better
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the odds of some of the sh*t I have seen happen,
        >>>>>>>>>> happening. You
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't even come close to making a valid argument. Not
        >>>>>> even a
        >>>>>>>>>>>> blip. You
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be missing out on the real secret to happiness
        >>>> and
        >>>>>>>> long
        >>>>>>>>>>>> life by
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being a nihilist.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At 09:26 PM 12/6/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly Kev, you should
        >>>>>>>> be a
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>comedian. ..Evil doer? did you really
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write that. Wow.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, you honestly need to get your feet back on
        >>>> the
        >>>>>>>> ground.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting to worry me. It seems reality took a left,
        >>>> and
        >>>>>>>> you
        >>>>>>>>>> took a
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right. I'll give you one last attempt at a wake up
        >>>>>> call.
        >>>>>>>> Here we
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> go -
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There isn't even a one in a trillion chance that
        >>>> there
        >>>>>> is
        >>>>>>>> a
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Juju of
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any form out there watching over you, so I
        >>>> definitely
        >>>>>>>> wouldn't
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> spend a
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of time contemplating an afterlife. The math
        >>>> just
        >>>>>>>> doesn't
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justify
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, to say the least. Since you like fiction, might I
        >>>>>>>>>> suggest you
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stick to movies, or books. Perhaps take up acting
        >>>>>>>> yourself. Give
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it a
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot. Just test yourself. Put Juju back in the
        >>>> closet
        >>>>>> for
        >>>>>>>> a
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> while. Try
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some other things and see how it goes.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><> wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just don't seem to get it. You are the evil
        >>>> doer
        >>>>>>>> here.
        >>>>>>>>>> If you
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to believe you are dead go ahead. Just please
        >>>> stop
        >>>>>>>>>>>> attacking me
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally because you have no valid arguments for
        >>>> your
        >>>>>>>> dismal
        >>>>>>>>>>>> point
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"" (Richard Bach)
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It cracks me up that you, the witchburner, are
        >>>> afraid
        >>>>>>>> that
        >>>>>>>>>> I, the
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> witch, am going to, waht?, burn myself! What folly!
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You keep referring to Juju as if such poppycock has
        >>>>>> ever
        >>>>>>>> been
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advocated by me. Not only do you not understand
        >>>>>> divinity,
        >>>>>>>> you
        >>>>>>>>>>>> don't
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even seem to understand athiesm, which last time I
        >>>>>>>> checked, was
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being moral without need for religion. Your derisive
        >>>>>>>> comments
        >>>>>>>>>>>> toward
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me prove to me that athiests are not moral.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really care what you believe. It is sad
        >>>> that
        >>>>>> you
        >>>>>>>>>>>> evidently
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haven't the time or possibly, intellect, to
        >>>> understand
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Aurobindo. It
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might open your eyes to possibilities you have yet
        >>>> to
        >>>>>>>> ponder.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It might help you become less antisocial. Don't
        >>>> blame
        >>>>>> me
        >>>>>>>>>> for what
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religion evidently did to you! I don't ascribe to
        >>>> that
        >>>>>>>> one.
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Neither
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does God, for that matter!
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dawkins is a song and dance man. He lies by
        >>>> omission. I
        >>>>>>>>>> doubt he
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believes his own schtick as deeply as you do.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peace,
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -KEV
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At 12:08 AM 12/5/2008 -0000, you wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kev, calling Dawkins a third grade thinker - kind
        >>>> of
        >>>>>> puts
        >>>>>>>>>> you in
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 'one step ahead of a butterfly net' column.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But hey, if you need a crutch to get through your
        >>>>>> life,
        >>>>>>>> that's
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prerogative. I don't need a Juju on the mountain.
        >>>> You
        >>>>>> do.
        >>>>>>>>>> That's
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cool
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as long as you don't start burning witches, moving
        >>>>>> Juju
        >>>>>>>> into
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> political control, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
        >>>> etc.
        >>>>>>>> etc. etc.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheer up Kev.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You were dead for billions and billions of years,
        >>>>>> before
        >>>>>>>> you
        >>>>>>>>>>>> were
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> born, and you've not suffered the slightest
        >>>>>> inconvenience
        >>>>>>>>>>>> from it.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweaking Mark Twain.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rick.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
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