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RE: [JustPeaceUK] Re: Herald (Glasgow) - BBC apologises for Boyle's 'Jew' joke

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  • Deborah Maccoby
    Brian, I do see your point, but apparently only one person complained - and maybe that was Ron Prosor, who knows? Anyway, if it was only one person, it
    Message 1 of 10 , May 1 3:45 AM
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      Brian, I do see your point, but apparently only one person complained - and maybe that was Ron Prosor, who knows? Anyway, if it was only one person, it couldn't have been regarded as so very antisemitic.

      Deborah



      To: JustPeaceUK@yahoogroups.com
      From: musicweaver@...
      Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 23:31:08 +0100
      Subject: Re: [JustPeaceUK] Re: Herald (Glasgow) - BBC apologises for Boyle's 'Jew' joke




      Deborah, I don't know if Israel is complaining or not -- +I+ am complaining. Thanks to Joe for posting Boyle's comment on the BBC's apology (by the way, I'll reveal just how out of touch I am -- who is Frankie Boyle? sorry, i'd never heard of him), and Boyle repeats his 'joke' which ends, "If you imagine that Palestine is a big cake, well...that cake is being punched to pieces by a very angry Jew".

      I am aware that this is an open website so you'll understand why I'm being careful in the adjectives I'm choosing to avoid in describing the sort of discourse I think the joke both exemplifies and promotes. That "very angry Jew" becomes a generic symbol so that for toxically primed minds any Jew, in potential consequence of such utterances, becomes a legitimate target to an even greater extent than he or she was before. This is not a matter of whatever it was that Boyle (or anyone in a similar position) might have had in his mind when he said what he said. I'm sure he genuinely believed (and believes) that his analogy was justified. But that's not the point and it's never the point -- such expressed attitudes must be judged on the effects they have, including consequences that may contribute to a normalising of misplaced blame, guilt, irrational hostility.

      Just because Israel says it attacks Palestinians (to pick up on your comment) "in the name of all Jews" does not mean that we in the diaspora have to accept that reason or depiction being foisted on us. You will remember that at the launch of JNews, Antony Lerman, discussing why it was a Jewish initiative, said, "Quite simply because Jews everywhere are uniquely affected by the conflict, both in terms of its impact on their Jewish identity, and in terms of how the fallout from the conflict affects their position in the wider society".

      Some diaspora Jews choose to support and identify with Israel, some choose the reverse, there may even be some who manage to avoid being "affected by the conflict". It's the generalising, stereotyping, essentialising that lead to trouble.

      Brian

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Deborah Maccoby
      To: justpeaceuk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 9:49 PM
      Subject: RE: [JustPeaceUK] Re: Herald (Glasgow) - BBC apologises for Boyle's 'Jew' joke

      I agree with Joe that if Israel calls itself the Jewish State and claims to attack Palestinian civilians in the name of all Jews, then it can't complain about jokes like this. It can't have its cake and eat it - to continue with the cake analogy.

      Deborah


      To: JustPeaceUK@yahoogroups.com
      From: al_ciaduh@...
      Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:13:55 +0000
      Subject: [JustPeaceUK] Re: Herald (Glasgow) - BBC apologises for Boyle's 'Jew' joke

      'But in general if jokes want to be on the very edge, they really have to be a darn sight better than that one.'
      - Such as ?

      How would you describe the 'angry Jew' in Frankie Boyle's so-called joke Brian, in order for it to still to conform to the facts of the case?

      I can't think of anyone else except Jews in the Israeli army who are kicking the shit out of what's left of Mandate Palestine (except maybe the illegal settlers and America's local dictatorships such as Egypt). The only qualms I have, as I've already said, is that it crucially leaves out my own culpability and that of Frankie Boyle's.

      Without the direct intervention of western institutions such as my own British government, and British institutions such as the BBC which are complicit in aiding abetting the racist criminals of Israel, then there would be no illegal occupation(s) at the very least.

      If the BBC and the British Government are so worried about antisemitism, they can easily do something about it and stop directly intervening to aid and abet Israelis racist war crimes which they know for a fact are being peddled by Israeli government propaganda as something which benefits Jewish people everywhere and Judaism in particular.

      Instead of holding comedians to account why doesn't the BBC hold Israel to account for its racism?

      Having said all that, I know what you mean though Brian - singling out religions and ethnic identities in this way and associating thme with horrible attributes can be fraught with all sorts of ugly interpretations.

      All the best!

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    • joe90_kane
      I look forward to the day when the BBC describes Israel not only as a Jewish state but also, on the grounds of balance, has to add the qualification that some
      Message 2 of 10 , May 1 8:38 AM
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        I look forward to the day when the BBC describes Israel not only as a Jewish state but also, on the grounds of balance, has to add the qualification that some Jews (and the friends of Jewish people) dispute this.
      • Deborah Fink
        Gosh, you ve changed your tune Deb, which is refreshing..... For all we know, maybe only one person complained about Jenny Tonge s comments... and it was of
        Message 3 of 10 , May 1 7:02 PM
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          Gosh, you've changed your tune Deb, which is refreshing..... For all we
          know, maybe only one person complained about Jenny Tonge's comments...
          and it was of course, only Ron Tosser, Alderman (I think), Michael Gove
          and Hoffman who accused the first alternative carol service of being
          anti-semitic....In other words, no one with any credibility.... Speaking
          of Ron, he is supposed to be speaking at the Hay Festival....

          Debbie

          --- In JustPeaceUK@yahoogroups.com, Deborah Maccoby <deborahmaccoby@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Brian, I do see your point, but apparently only one person complained
          - and maybe that was Ron Prosor, who knows? Anyway, if it was only one
          person, it couldn't have been regarded as so very antisemitic.
          >
          > Deborah
          >
          > To: JustPeaceUK@yahoogroups.com
          > From: musicweaver@...
          > Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 23:31:08 +0100
          > Subject: Re: [JustPeaceUK] Re: Herald (Glasgow) - BBC apologises for
          Boyle's 'Jew' joke

          >
          > Deborah, I don't know if Israel is complaining or not -- +I+ am
          complaining. Thanks to Joe for posting Boyle's comment on the BBC's
          apology (by the way, I'll reveal just how out of touch I am -- who is
          Frankie Boyle? sorry, i'd never heard of him), and Boyle repeats his
          'joke' which ends, "If you imagine that Palestine is a big cake,
          well...that cake is being punched to pieces by a very angry Jew".
          >
          > I am aware that this is an open website so you'll understand why I'm
          being careful in the adjectives I'm choosing to avoid in describing the
          sort of discourse I think the joke both exemplifies and promotes. That
          "very angry Jew" becomes a generic symbol so that for toxically primed
          minds any Jew, in potential consequence of such utterances, becomes a
          legitimate target to an even greater extent than he or she was before.
          This is not a matter of whatever it was that Boyle (or anyone in a
          similar position) might have had in his mind when he said what he said.
          I'm sure he genuinely believed (and believes) that his analogy was
          justified. But that's not the point and it's never the point -- such
          expressed attitudes must be judged on the effects they have, including
          consequences that may contribute to a normalising of misplaced blame,
          guilt, irrational hostility.
          >
          > Just because Israel says it attacks Palestinians (to pick up on your
          comment) "in the name of all Jews" does not mean that we in the diaspora
          have to accept that reason or depiction being foisted on us. You will
          remember that at the launch of JNews, Antony Lerman, discussing why it
          was a Jewish initiative, said, "Quite simply because Jews everywhere are
          uniquely affected by the conflict, both in terms of its impact on their
          Jewish identity, and in terms of how the fallout from the conflict
          affects their position in the wider society".
          >
          > Some diaspora Jews choose to support and identify with Israel, some
          choose the reverse, there may even be some who manage to avoid being
          "affected by the conflict". It's the generalising, stereotyping,
          essentialising that lead to trouble.
          >
          > Brian
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Deborah Maccoby
          > To: justpeaceuk@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 9:49 PM
          > Subject: RE: [JustPeaceUK] Re: Herald (Glasgow) - BBC apologises for
          Boyle's 'Jew' joke
          >
          > I agree with Joe that if Israel calls itself the Jewish State and
          claims to attack Palestinian civilians in the name of all Jews, then it
          can't complain about jokes like this. It can't have its cake and eat it
          - to continue with the cake analogy.
          >
          > Deborah
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